breaking these cookie cutter god mode groups

[ErikGW]

I'm new to these forums but have been playing for a while. Long past my 1k warzones achievement and i have experienced every class and role.

 

I was hoping these pvp forums might have less whining and more conversation, so maybe a fresh perspective might help.

 

I have seen plenty of the things people complain about such as:

- 6 healers on a team

- 2 healers + 6 tanks

- omggodmode ranked teams rolling hordes of noobs in unranked.

 

Just a few examples. But whining about it doesnt fix it.

 

Here are some practical ideas for breaking the cookie cutter "win" templates, and this does work in many cases:

- scoundrel/op healers are ridiculously op because of their mobility and HOTs. But their primary heal methods are single target. If you face one that is guarded, he can run you ragged all day if you focus only on him. Take a minute to target the squishiest dps near him and make him try to save them, then lock and spike him down. The low resolve of these classes means you can triple lock them easily. Combine with good trauma and he will die with little effort.

 

- the omgezmode smash jugg/mara build. Concept is this is the best way to wipe out a heal+guard duo because you get a guaranteed smash crit on both. Oooo scary. What the smasher lacks is the ability to do much else (single target dps, survive a spike). Spread out, taunt him, burn him down. Mark him with a saber so your team knows to debuff him and not let him smash the group. They are usually very squishy targets to kill after their force charge, and are rarely a threat to anyone if you take away their chance to destroy 5 targets in a few shots. Yes, this means the healer is at risk at certain points but its less risk than with a dead guard. And the guard can taunt out of the smash radius.

 

- the "we iz lame" all heavy group. 6 tanks and 2 healers is the ultimate way to say "we suck so bad at this game that we gave up on actually killing people months ago". Yes, there are teams like this. They are very difficult in matches like huttball and voidstar but obviously suck in pretty much anything else. I can offer little advice against this grade of lameness other than saying distributed damage is key. Focusing one target rarely works. Usually these players are so bad as individuals that they will lose if you can coerce them out of their safety circle.

 

- "we iz skeered" 6 healer teams. As obnoxious as 6 tanks, but not really that difficult. Each healer has a "save me" method. (Sorc bubble, op disappear). The trick is keeping track of when they are on cooldown and making them all burn them rapidly. Easier said than done if your dps sucks.

 

So in all the examples above it becomes obvious my perspective of the game is that any problem can be solved by a balanced group with coordinated patience and competent members that understand the cookie cutter limitations.

 

In my own groups i have recently started taking the dps role because it seems we have too many healers and tanks. It has been mostly beneficial because dps is where the real power is to change the pace of a swtor pvp match.

 

I hope other players who sometimes see the cookie cutter ezmode builds make the pvp dull will break the mold themselves and play the dps too, forcing some of these groups to change their lame ways. Because yeah, you guys whining about it are often the same guys doing what you whine about :-) think about it!

 

These are just some of my thoughts. Trolling is expected. Constructive feedback may be better :-) discussion of other possible constructive playstyle responses to the lameness is very welcome.

[stupidsyrup]

This is a genuinely good thread I will keep in mind. However, as I say, the only people who read the PvP forums are people who know this, or smashers whining about Scouperatives rolling away from them.

 

10/10

[ErikGW]

You are likely correct, but i felt after seeing so many whining threads on my first visit to the pvp forums that i just had to say it, even it only helps a few noobs!

[Gren-Aluren]

I see this in every multiplayer game I have ever played. Someone dies from certain character build or class (In this case, finds a class difficult to kill) and immediately tries to replicate that player. In every game people are going to try to use the best or the top; it's human nature to be competitive. I don't expect people to break away from the mold. Edited July 22, 2013 by Gren-Aluren

[ErikGW]

I agree everyone will, and should, emulate the great players around. I just think that they need to emulate more great dps players instead of great healers/tanks/smash monkeys lol

 

For a while i swapped between 3 trees on my operative. When i was getting to max level and still a noob i felt like i had to heal to survive and not hide from fights. Then i got better. Playing shadow felt similar as deception was dps for 20 seconds and run away, or trait to be a tank. When i got better i stopped running away when i was deception, which is almost as survivable as being a tank anyway.

 

I love pvp in swtor, but the 12 minute brawls of few deaths get dull after a while, even if i am usually in the top 3 on the scoreboard in the end (thats a lot of work in a match full of tank/healer spam).

[Capt_Beers]

I have seen plenty of the things people complain about such as:

- 6 healers on a team

- 2 healers + 6 tanks

- omggodmode ranked teams rolling hordes of noobs in unranked.

 

Well written post with solid advice but the problem is these teams that you mentioned aren't on purpose. They are just the results of a random PvP queue (and sometimes respeccing on VS defense).

 

As for the ranked team thign . I hate facing them but I can't blame them. When I have peoepl to queue with you better believe we go in and roll over pug teams. Playing on a pug team can be quite painful (not always but sometimes). The only thing I don't approve of for ranked teams in regs is using ranked tactics.

 

Things like timing/chaining grenades, complex node guard ambushes and getting your perfect 4 man comp together. I don't think any of these things are OP but it's kind of like if you and your buddies were on Alabama's football team and you showed up at the park to play against of dudes in their 30's just throwing the ball around.

 

You're playing a division down, take it easy guys.

[ErikGW]

You're correct that the uber fail groups are often a result of random pairings of 4+4 or a series of 2s, but when you see the same 8-12 people for hours in those matches it can hardly be called random. For randoms i bring 2-4 people most often and thats tank+heal+dps+dps. We expect to get grouped with 1-2 more healers and 2-3 more tanks. At least that way we can pewpew through a random without it turning into an elementary battle of tanks vs tanks.

 

If we see a consistent misbalance, we swap setups. But it seems some people will repeat the same bad group for hours and not swap even after getting owned on some maps.

 

I personally enjoy semi-pug matches more than ranked. Sometimes you meet some good duos or get a really competitive match against a few good players that hold the other team together. Often ranked becomes a matter of push-pull-push until one side stretches too far. In a pug, things can be less calculated and more exciting.

Edited July 22, 2013 by ErikGW

[JP_Legatus]

I'm new to these forums but have been playing for a while. Long past my 1k warzones achievement and i have experienced every class and role.

 

I was hoping these pvp forums might have less whining and more conversation, so maybe a fresh perspective might help.

 

I have seen plenty of the things people complain about such as:

- 6 healers on a team

- 2 healers + 6 tanks

- omggodmode ranked teams rolling hordes of noobs in unranked.

 

Just a few examples. But whining about it doesnt fix it.

 

Here are some practical ideas for breaking the cookie cutter "win" templates, and this does work in many cases:

- scoundrel/op healers are ridiculously op because of their mobility and HOTs. But their primary heal methods are single target. If you face one that is guarded, he can run you ragged all day if you focus only on him. Take a minute to target the squishiest dps near him and make him try to save them, then lock and spike him down. The low resolve of these classes means you can triple lock them easily. Combine with good trauma and he will die with little effort.

 

- the omgezmode smash jugg/mara build. Concept is this is the best way to wipe out a heal+guard duo because you get a guaranteed smash crit on both. Oooo scary. What the smasher lacks is the ability to do much else (single target dps, survive a spike). Spread out, taunt him, burn him down. Mark him with a saber so your team knows to debuff him and not let him smash the group. They are usually very squishy targets to kill after their force charge, and are rarely a threat to anyone if you take away their chance to destroy 5 targets in a few shots. Yes, this means the healer is at risk at certain points but its less risk than with a dead guard. And the guard can taunt out of the smash radius.

 

- the "we iz lame" all heavy group. 6 tanks and 2 healers is the ultimate way to say "we suck so bad at this game that we gave up on actually killing people months ago". Yes, there are teams like this. They are very difficult in matches like huttball and voidstar but obviously suck in pretty much anything else. I can offer little advice against this grade of lameness other than saying distributed damage is key. Focusing one target rarely works. Usually these players are so bad as individuals that they will lose if you can coerce them out of their safety circle.

 

- "we iz skeered" 6 healer teams. As obnoxious as 6 tanks, but not really that difficult. Each healer has a "save me" method. (Sorc bubble, op disappear). The trick is keeping track of when they are on cooldown and making them all burn them rapidly. Easier said than done if your dps sucks.

 

So in all the examples above it becomes obvious my perspective of the game is that any problem can be solved by a balanced group with coordinated patience and competent members that understand the cookie cutter limitations.

 

In my own groups i have recently started taking the dps role because it seems we have too many healers and tanks. It has been mostly beneficial because dps is where the real power is to change the pace of a swtor pvp match.

 

I hope other players who sometimes see the cookie cutter ezmode builds make the pvp dull will break the mold themselves and play the dps too, forcing some of these groups to change their lame ways. Because yeah, you guys whining about it are often the same guys doing what you whine about :-) think about it!

 

These are just some of my thoughts. Trolling is expected. Constructive feedback may be better :-) discussion of other possible constructive playstyle responses to the lameness is very welcome.

 

Some of the stuff you said is common sense and other stuff simply isn't going to accomplish the goal.

 

Target the healer? Derp, everybody who has played pvp more than a day knows this (whether they do it...).

Smash squishy? I go through plenty of regs games on my mara without dying once. And good luck staying out of smash range when you're all running through narrow voidstar corridors, trying to stop a cap inside the novare bunker, or other such objective situation.

Spread the damage out on a 6 tank 2 healer comp wut? Focus a healer down in a 6 healer comp wut?

Edited July 23, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[AlrikFassbauer]

Some of the stuff you said is common sense

 

Common sense to whom ? To Rated players, maybe, but not to casuals or randoms.

 

but it's kind of like if you and your buddies were on Alabama's football team and you showed up at the park to play against of dudes in their 30's just throwing the ball around.

 

Alabama Football Team = "common sense"

Everyone else = highly untrained

 

 

 

Besides, one tactic that works very well to break a comrade free from attack is the XS Freighter Flight or similar orbital bombardement : It makes the people run away in horror.

 

Similar tactic : You see 4-5 Smashers and whatnot damaging a comrade ? Try any AOE damage types on this group. Seeing them running away as fast as possible is almost guaranteed. At least when they have no healer in their back.

 

A healer is healing someone ? Try to freeze him (Commando) or otherwise disturb him so that he can't do it anymore - even a DOT works, because most people will try to heal themselves from that, too.

 

It's all a little bit about Psychological Warfare, really.

 

And that's what most people don't understand.

Edited July 23, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[Avicii]

You're correct that the uber fail groups are often a result of random pairings of 4+4 or a series of 2s, but when you see the same 8-12 people for hours in those matches it can hardly be called random. For randoms i bring 2-4 people most often and thats tank+heal+dps+dps. We expect to get grouped with 1-2 more healers and 2-3 more tanks. At least that way we can pewpew through a random without it turning into an elementary battle of tanks vs tanks.

 

If we see a consistent misbalance, we swap setups. But it seems some people will repeat the same bad group for hours and not swap even after getting owned on some maps.

 

I personally enjoy semi-pug matches more than ranked. Sometimes you meet some good duos or get a really competitive match against a few good players that hold the other team together. Often ranked becomes a matter of push-pull-push until one side stretches too far. In a pug, things can be less calculated and more exciting.

 

Translation: RWZs are too hard and we get rolled so I'd rather take a 4 man premade of tank, Healer, 2 DPS and completely ou comp pugs and steam roll them. As compitition is not what I look for.

[Ghost_Spectre]

These are just some of my thoughts. Trolling is expected. Constructive feedback may be better :-) discussion of other possible constructive playstyle responses to the lameness is very welcome.

 

Hey ErikGW, a great post with some sound advice. People who are looking for ways to improve their game play will take what you said to heart. No matter who a person is, one can never know everything. Being open to learning new methods, ways, and knowledge is a sign of growth and maturity. I always look for ways to improve my play and tactics. I appreciate the time you put into this.

[Ghost_Spectre]

I don't think any of these things are OP but it's kind of like if you and your buddies were on Alabama's football team and you showed up at the park to play against of dudes in their 30's just throwing the ball around.

 

I can say from experience that this can turn out very ugly. It wasn't a college team we encountered but some players from the local team while we were at a field in San Diego in the early 90s. Fortunately for my buddies and me, we split up between the players and had a blast.