Vanguard full redesign

[JaggedFett]

As it stands, this class serves zero purpose. There are far better dps classes, we can't heal, and we even get out tanked by far.

 

My 55 VG is literally game fodder and of no use for either PvP or PvE :/

 

A drastic redesign should be well in order. The class is beyond broken.

 

Here's some initial thoughts (wishlist blue sky thinking) ;

 

Specialize us.

 

- Some of our more useful skills (in PvP) are our PBAOE skills. Focus that, make a pbaoe heavy skill tree. Some pbaoes to damage, some to CC, Boosted area coverage, less area coverage but with boosted damage, pbaoe 'Rescue Allies' skill that clears CC on all nearby teammates, etc

 

- If we're meant to be front-line as our name suggests, make it so we can get there. 1 CC break is nothing, even with resolve. Storm is great, and so is harpoon, but really if I'm supposed to be up in the enemies face, or shielding/saving that healer.... let me skill to get to them

 

- Speaking of saving that healer; A DoT skilltree seems silly for this class to me. I need burst and i need to move. Am I supposed to hope my DoTs kill the enemy faster that they kill my healer?

 

- Cull some of the ranged skills in favor of more in your face stuff. I'd love to see some sort of treeline akin to the Gunslingers Independent Anarchy, Contingency Charges, Insurrection line.

 

All in all I do enjoy this game, but you've obliterated my first class.

Thought if i was going to complain, I'd do so with some suggestions added.

[Aelaias]

Well, the dots are great damage, especially considering that 2 of the are basically damage adds, if they are allowed to run which a good tech healer will not. The idea is of course that layering 1 decent dps ability and 3 mediocre ones on top of the dots you get more than the seeming sum of the parts. In reality when confronted by competent opponents you get less. If the energy costs were reduced a bit and defensive options increased he class would be in a much better place. Edited July 19, 2013 by Aelaias

[hallucigenocide]

i think tactics and assault should be combined into one tree and they should just remove all the lackluster skills in there.. and then make up a new tree... this would probably benefit commandos also since their assault tree is also broken.

 

personally i love the mobility of the class.. what it lacks is strong ranged abilites though.. it is after all a trooper with an assault rifle.. would be nice to see an opener that can only be used from range and then you work your way into close combat... but if they insist on keeping it the way it is they really really need to boost our survivability by alot.

[Keypek]

They need to make up their minds what they want the class to be really. They want it to be ranged, they don't want it to be ranged. They want it to be burst, they don't want it to be burst. They want it to be mix of quick powerful dots with some range, they want it to be slow tedious dots that all have to be applied from 10m.

 

I like the idea of redesiging it to a point. But really just for pvp. Pve it still is very good damage in hybrid spec and tactics they just need to make the top tiers of assault not suck. Your thought of making it a pbaoe class would be ok in pvp if played carefully (not just a mass cc breaker) but pve it would be awful depending on the fight or boss.

 

Always thought'd be cool to have a magnet type ability since no one else has one in swtor... all though some may hate that idea. But pulls in all enemies within 20m per say. Or have harpoon grab everyone in a CAOE up to 20m away. All though that would be a little op in huttball lmao. Would be perfect for tactics though.

 

At this point though I just wish they'd decide what exactly they want the VG dps trees to be and improve on them.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Keypek

[TheOneWag]

Done~

 

Shield Spec

1. Charge talent now reduces the CD of HTL or Storm every time you are hit.

2. Guard Cannon missiles heal for 7-8% per missile (to come in line with Jug 30%)

3. Deflective Guards now increases shield chance by 4%

4. Power Screen ICD down to 1 second from 1.5 seconds.

5. Static Surge now causes each tick of Pulse Cannon to apply a 3-4 second 30-50% snare

6. (Optional) Swap tier spots of Defensive Measures talent and Neural Overload talent

 

Tactics:

1. Frontline Offense also increases the damage of Fire Pulse by 3 / 6%

2. Pulse Generator grants 30% per charge, 90% at max.

3. Havoc Training also applies its bonus to Ion Pulse

4. Lower the ICD on Reflexive Shield

5. Charged Loaders now only loads 6 missiles total, but allows 2 missiles to be fired before the independent CD on the launcher is triggered. Independent CD to launcher is now 1.5 seconds instead of 1 second.

6. Fire Pulse base damage increased 10-25%

 

Assault:

1. Soldier's Endurance is now 3% / 6% Endurance

2. Sweltering Heat now applies its debuff for the duration that the target is effected by your Plasma Cell

3. High Friction Bolts now allows your HIB to ignore 100% of the armor of a target effected by one of your burn effects. It no longer refreshes your Plasma Cell.

4. Superheated Plasma no longer buffs the damage of Plasma Cell, and instead increases its duration by 2 / 4 / 6 seconds.

5. Electro Shield now returns a percentage of the damage dealt instead of a flat amount.

6. Incendiary Round now has a 20 yard range.

7. Assault Frame is now a proc and increases your armor for 10% / 20% for 8 seconds after a successful Stockstrike.

8. Rain of Fire: Now also offers its bonus damage to Plastique.

9. Degauss: now increases your movement speed by 30-50% for 3 sec when it successfully removes a movement impairing effect.

10. Burnout: Increases periodic damage to targets below 30% by 20/30/40%. Also increases the damage of Plastique to targets under 30% by 50%.

11. Adrenaline Fueled: Now extends the effect of Adrenaline Rush for 3/5 seconds each time you are attacked while Adrenaline Rush is active. Cannot proc more than once every 3 seconds, caps at 15 seconds.

12. Plastique: Cooldown now 20 seconds up from 15. Increase base damage to target by 50%. Plastique Dot damage to target lowered, however Dot damage from explosion is now AOE and has a chance to apply Plasma Cell to each target it hits on its initial hit.

[hallucigenocide]

sorry for going off topic a bit but is it just me that think hib should hit alot harder than it does atm? i mean with all the available buffs to it it still pretty much hits like a wet noodle.. what's up with that? it should atleast be hitting like demo round with all the buffs but it's not even close. brutal impact, focused impact, high friction bolts, assault trooper and rain of fire. Edited July 19, 2013 by hallucigenocide

[that_Spartan_IV]

OP, you have just said what I've been wanting to say forever.

 

I know that this sounds a little dumb, but I feel like when I play as the Vanguard is just a regular Trooper. I feel like there's nothing unique about it.

 

So I proposed this idea: just give the Assault Cannon to the Vanguard to up his damage output. While the Commando would use the rifle now, it would give the Commando and Vanguard's their own little niches and make the classes feel unique.

[Jarfunkz]

can we change adrenaline rush, it is STUPID. The person who changed it should be fired for sheer retardation.

[that_Spartan_IV]

Agreed. But I ask you, what makes the Vanguard feel like a special Trooper? The shield? The Commando is a healer, and he can use the Assault Cannon, which all have high damage outputs, but the Vanguard? He has a shield, and a rifle. It just doesn't feel right.

[hallucigenocide]

OP, you have just said what I've been wanting to say forever.

 

I know that this sounds a little dumb, but I feel like when I play as the Vanguard is just a regular Trooper. I feel like there's nothing unique about it.

 

So I proposed this idea: just give the Assault Cannon to the Vanguard to up his damage output. While the Commando would use the rifle now, it would give the Commando and Vanguard's their own little niches and make the classes feel unique.

 

 

No...

[JaggedFett]

OP, you have just said what I've been wanting to say forever.

 

I know that this sounds a little dumb, but I feel like when I play as the Vanguard is just a regular Trooper. I feel like there's nothing unique about it.

 

So I proposed this idea: just give the Assault Cannon to the Vanguard to up his damage output. While the Commando would use the rifle now, it would give the Commando and Vanguard's their own little niches and make the classes feel unique.

 

I agree with the 'regular Trooper' feeling but I disagree with the Assault Cannon.

We're meant to be essentially Spec Ops, an initial Strike team type Soldier. We should have compact weaponry imho.

 

The problem lies in our skill trees i firmly believe. Were they redesigned with that above statement in mind we have a chance at really specializing the class (and its mirror) to a unique, enjoyable - and most importantly playable- class.

 

I've played since launch. My first toon was this Vanguard, and even then I found him (fun) but flawed in design.

Here's hoping that they at least listen to the players an take a good hard look at the class as a whole and its viability to the current game.

 

I don't need OP, or 2 shot kills or anything else...I just need to feel like a Vanguard, not an Ewok.

[PerronCedric]

can we change adrenaline rush, it is STUPID. The person who changed it should be fired for sheer retardation.

 

lol... adrenaline rush is a lot better in its current state

[hallucigenocide]

lol... adrenaline rush is a lot better in its current state

 

uhm no...

[stockwizzle]

uhm no...

 

obviously you never used it before when it just tickled you and made no difference when you got attacked.. atleast now it can outheal sumone who is throwing hella dots on you or sumtin... it actually makes a difference now

[Kitru]

obviously you never used it before when it just tickled you and made no difference when you got attacked.. atleast now it can outheal sumone who is throwing hella dots on you or sumtin... it actually makes a difference now

 

The problem with it is that 30% is *way* too low to wait for it to activate. If the activation hp were something like 40-50% and it healed more below 30% and 40-50%, it would be a *lot* more useful, but, as it stands, you're often too low for it to do any good when it finally activates (unless you're fighting something with comparatively mediocre DPS).

[hallucigenocide]

The problem with it is that 30% is *way* too low to wait for it to activate. If the activation hp were something like 40-50% and it healed more below 30% and 40-50%, it would be a *lot* more useful, but, as it stands, you're often too low for it to do any good when it finally activates (unless you're fighting something with comparatively mediocre DPS).

 

what this guy said.. i'm not sure what they where thinking when they redesigned it but it was defenitely not better...

if they changed it so that it kept you at 50% it would make sense but keeping you at execute % does'nt.

Edited July 20, 2013 by hallucigenocide

[Kitru]

what this guy said.. i'm not sure what they where thinking when they redesigned it but it was defenitely not better...

if they changed it so that it kept you at 50% it would make sense but keeping you at execute % does'nt.

 

I'd also like to see the duration get reexamined. As it stands, it's only up for 8(?) seconds, which isn't really long enough to make a huge difference like you would want out of it, especially since you have to actually wait until you're dead for it to activate. Considering how squishy you are when it finally turns on, it would make sense for it to actually last longer, especially since the healing isn't so massive that you still can't be simply burned down through it (I've been gibbed with it active a numer of times doing trash packs on my VG tank when the healer DCd).

 

Adrenaline Rush, in its current form, is just *weird*. It *can* be awesome in the right situations, when incoming damage is *just right*, you can predict when you're about to drop, and you've got no healer around, but all of that is just *too* specific for it to be really amazing. It really does need to be reexamined because, right now, it's just not really worth it.

[hallucigenocide]

I'd also like to see the duration get reexamined. As it stands, it's only up for 8(?) seconds, which isn't really long enough to make a huge difference like you would want out of it, especially since you have to actually wait until you're dead for it to activate. Considering how squishy you are when it finally turns on, it would make sense for it to actually last longer, especially since the healing isn't so massive that you still can't be simply burned down through it (I've been gibbed with it active a numer of times doing trash packs on my VG tank when the healer DCd).

 

Adrenaline Rush, in its current form, is just *weird*. It *can* be awesome in the right situations, when incoming damage is *just right*, you can predict when you're about to drop, and you've got no healer around, but all of that is just *too* specific for it to be really amazing. It really does need to be reexamined because, right now, it's just not really worth it.

 

i agree if they insist on it being at 30% they will have to make it so that you're immune to every incoming damage for the duration.. otherwise it's just a waste really.

[Luco-Zade]

Vanguards, as the name suggest, are meant to be a "hard shell," designed to be able to harass at long range, damaging at medium range, and lethal in your face.

 

All we basically need is increased absorption/mitigation (through skill or passive class ability) that allows us to survive at range and make it to medium or in your face range.

 

Also, increased damage. If the class is meant to be a tough soab that is meant to get in and around enemy formations and keep them pinned whilst long range DPS takes them down.

 

Obviously i am thinking of a battlefield situation and may not strictly relate into PVP, but from the way the other AC are designed it seems this is what they originally wanted before other things interfered in its design.

 

The 3 tress i feel should relate like,

 

1) Tank spec, holds the enemy in place as DPs saturates them from long range, would include Stuns, mezzes, roots and slows, probably not all, but enough to hold 1 or even upto 2-3 targets in place in a small area. (In your face range spec)

 

2) Medium range dps spec, possibly AOE based, with AOE dots, bursts you get the idea, possible mix of burst/DoT abilities.

 

3) DPS tree, mix of ranges depending on skills in the tree, pure dps, lower survival, think current survivability with old DPS potential spread over more skills than the boring 2-button rotation.

 

Most importantly, they need to decide WHAt they wish the Vanguard to be in relation to TOR lor. Then they can work out the finer points.

[Kitru]

Vanguards, as the name suggest, are meant to be a "hard shell," designed to be able to harass at long range, damaging at medium range, and lethal in your face.

 

Actually, the "Vanguard" doesn't refer to a hard shell or durable unit or anything. The vanguard is the forward assault group that attacks opposing forces before anyone else. It's about getting into melee before anyone else. Of course, because only Shield VGs gave *access* to such a charge, the name is still pretty inappropriate (it's, honestly, one of the reasons why I *still* think that all VGs should have Storm as a default ability).

 

The problem with VGs is less the need to survive at longer ranges and more about actually being able to instantly/near-instantly close like any decent melee class should be capable of. Scoundrels now have their roll, Knights have Leap, and Shadows have Force Speed. VG DPS are the only ones without a legit gap closer.

 

2) Medium range dps spec, possibly AOE based, with AOE dots, bursts you get the idea, possible mix of burst/DoT abilities.

 

3) DPS tree, mix of ranges depending on skills in the tree, pure dps, lower survival, think current survivability with old DPS potential spread over more skills than the boring 2-button rotation.

 

VGs are explicitly intended to be a melee class. The fact that they carry a rifle is tangential. At best, it means that they have some minor medium-short ranged functionality (which they already do). From a balance perspective, DPS is supposed to be (roughly) equivalent across all DPS specs and survivability is supposed to be roughly evenly matched. It *doesn't* mean that it has to be performed in an identical manner. One might have more burst mitigation (which is probably what you're asking for out of Assault) while the other is more about passive mitigation.

[Brunner_Venda]

lol... adrenaline rush is a lot better in its current state

 

Adrenalin rush sucks ***. It leaves you in execute range.

 

One dispatch, and you're gone - regardless of popping (the only) defensive CD that assault spec has.

 

It needs to be fixed to work at 40% at least, higher is better. Anything. Just get us out of execute range, because it makes the skill (and adrenalin fueled) USELESS.

[CrygonFreeze]

Done~

 

Shield Spec

1. Charge talent now reduces the CD of HTL or Storm every time you are hit.

2. Guard Cannon missiles heal for 7-8% per missile (to come in line with Jug 30%)

3. Deflective Guards now increases shield chance by 4%

4. Power Screen ICD down to 1 second from 1.5 seconds.

5. Static Surge now causes each tick of Pulse Cannon to apply a 3-4 second 30-50% snare

6. (Optional) Swap tier spots of Defensive Measures talent and Neural Overload talent

 

Tactics:

1. Frontline Offense also increases the damage of Fire Pulse by 3 / 6%

2. Pulse Generator grants 30% per charge, 90% at max.

3. Havoc Training also applies its bonus to Ion Pulse

4. Lower the ICD on Reflexive Shield

5. Charged Loaders now only loads 6 missiles total, but allows 2 missiles to be fired before the independent CD on the launcher is triggered. Independent CD to launcher is now 1.5 seconds instead of 1 second.

6. Fire Pulse base damage increased 10-25%

 

Assault:

1. Soldier's Endurance is now 3% / 6% Endurance

2. Sweltering Heat now applies its debuff for the duration that the target is effected by your Plasma Cell

3. High Friction Bolts now allows your HIB to ignore 100% of the armor of a target effected by one of your burn effects. It no longer refreshes your Plasma Cell.

4. Superheated Plasma no longer buffs the damage of Plasma Cell, and instead increases its duration by 2 / 4 / 6 seconds.

5. Electro Shield now returns a percentage of the damage dealt instead of a flat amount.

6. Incendiary Round now has a 20 yard range.

7. Assault Frame is now a proc and increases your armor for 10% / 20% for 8 seconds after a successful Stockstrike.

8. Rain of Fire: Now also offers its bonus damage to Plastique.

9. Degauss: now increases your movement speed by 30-50% for 3 sec when it successfully removes a movement impairing effect.

10. Burnout: Increases periodic damage to targets below 30% by 20/30/40%. Also increases the damage of Plastique to targets under 30% by 50%.

11. Adrenaline Fueled: Now extends the effect of Adrenaline Rush for 3/5 seconds each time you are attacked while Adrenaline Rush is active. Cannot proc more than once every 3 seconds, caps at 15 seconds.

12. Plastique: Cooldown now 20 seconds up from 15. Increase base damage to target by 50%. Plastique Dot damage to target lowered, however Dot damage from explosion is now AOE and has a chance to apply Plasma Cell to each target it hits on its initial hit.

 

 

Well done...I wanted to do something like this. I still love my Vanguard.

[Luxidenstore]

Done~

 

Shield Spec

1. Charge talent now reduces the CD of HTL or Storm every time you are hit.

2. Guard Cannon missiles heal for 7-8% per missile (to come in line with Jug 30%)

3. Deflective Guards now increases shield chance by 4%

4. Power Screen ICD down to 1 second from 1.5 seconds.

5. Static Surge now causes each tick of Pulse Cannon to apply a 3-4 second 30-50% snare

6. (Optional) Swap tier spots of Defensive Measures talent and Neural Overload talent

 

Tactics:

1. Frontline Offense also increases the damage of Fire Pulse by 3 / 6%

2. Pulse Generator grants 30% per charge, 90% at max.

3. Havoc Training also applies its bonus to Ion Pulse

4. Lower the ICD on Reflexive Shield

5. Charged Loaders now only loads 6 missiles total, but allows 2 missiles to be fired before the independent CD on the launcher is triggered. Independent CD to launcher is now 1.5 seconds instead of 1 second.

6. Fire Pulse base damage increased 10-25%

 

Assault:

1. Soldier's Endurance is now 3% / 6% Endurance

2. Sweltering Heat now applies its debuff for the duration that the target is effected by your Plasma Cell

3. High Friction Bolts now allows your HIB to ignore 100% of the armor of a target effected by one of your burn effects. It no longer refreshes your Plasma Cell.

4. Superheated Plasma no longer buffs the damage of Plasma Cell, and instead increases its duration by 2 / 4 / 6 seconds.

5. Electro Shield now returns a percentage of the damage dealt instead of a flat amount.

6. Incendiary Round now has a 20 yard range.

7. Assault Frame is now a proc and increases your armor for 10% / 20% for 8 seconds after a successful Stockstrike.

8. Rain of Fire: Now also offers its bonus damage to Plastique.

9. Degauss: now increases your movement speed by 30-50% for 3 sec when it successfully removes a movement impairing effect.

10. Burnout: Increases periodic damage to targets below 30% by 20/30/40%. Also increases the damage of Plastique to targets under 30% by 50%.

11. Adrenaline Fueled: Now extends the effect of Adrenaline Rush for 3/5 seconds each time you are attacked while Adrenaline Rush is active. Cannot proc more than once every 3 seconds, caps at 15 seconds.

12. Plastique: Cooldown now 20 seconds up from 15. Increase base damage to target by 50%. Plastique Dot damage to target lowered, however Dot damage from explosion is now AOE and has a chance to apply Plasma Cell to each target it hits on its initial hit.

 

**** yes. Hire this man, please.

 

The only thing I'd change is for Tactics, instead of increasing the DMG per stack of Pulse Generator, which will still retain the clumsy nature of the ability for both PvE and PvP, they should make something like Pulse Engine for Tactics.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Luxidenstore

[DuntaCoral]

Never realized so many people thought VG was broken? I run tactics and constantly out DPS better geared members of "better" dps classes and thought we were still parsing the best endgame but I guess I was wrong? I do agree with one earlier post though, having to rely on sticky grenade as my closing attack sucks, we need to make storm across all the trees.

[TheOneWag]

Never realized so many people thought VG was broken? I run tactics

 

I put up 1+ mil in open WZs. Ranked is a completely different story.

 

PVE, the only viable DPS build for us is hybrid that omits both 31 point DPS talents. Why? Because Plastique is that pathetic along with the rest of the Assault tree.