Suggested balance changes

[ArchangelLBC]

How about keep adrenaline rush as it is right now. Fired up gives commandos a buff to aim, crit, or power. You have just solved the offensive cooldown issue and adrenaline rush's usefulness to commandos.

 

BOOM!

 

Yeah I'm fine with that.

[schooch]

its neither.

 

i am not entirely sure on how it plays into commando's toolset in PvE (ill rely on someone else's expertise here), but in PvP its probably one of the worst defensive cooldowns in the game.

 

only activates if youre in execute range.

stops healing when you reach 30% (altho it will heal again if you drop below 30% a second time)

if you pop it preemptively, and then it doesnt activate, it will have gone unused for 4 minutes.

its HPS is not enough to make a difference if more than 1 person is attacking you.

 

its really just a lack-luster ability, and its inability to be used >30% health really hinders its uses in PvP.

 

I as well can only comment on the PVP side of things.

 

As a Commando Healer it is one of the strongest defensive cooldowns we have. Maybe thats where we have different opinions because you play dps (I believe any way, correct me if I am wrong) and I play CM. With that said, it could have totally different uses too us.

[TheCourier-]

If commando received the buffs that you're proposing, commando would be so ridiculous that it would get nerfed the next patch after they got buffed. Tech override on a 60 second CD would increase commando's burst DPS by a lot. Full auto causing high movement actions to not work would basically kill sage and operative as classes.

[JaingSkiratapwns]

I realize you guys think your class is still in the Dark Age, but don't you think this is a bit over the top?

[cashogy_reborn]

If commando received the buffs that you're proposing, commando would be so ridiculous that it would get nerfed the next patch after they got buffed. Tech override on a 60 second CD would increase commando's burst DPS by a lot. Full auto causing high movement actions to not work would basically kill sage and operative as classes.

 

TO doesnt increase damage output. the skills do exactly the same damage that they do with a normal cast. all TO does is make the instant. its a probably the most important utility skill we have, and for DPS it is the only anti-interrupt ability we have. for it to be on such a long cooldown does not make sense

 

the movement impairment on Full Auto would be for the duration of the channel only, just like now (3s). and interrupting Full Auto would cancel the effect. its not like it is a spam-able ability, and 3s channels are very easy to interrupt

 

I realize you guys think your class is still in the Dark Age, but don't you think this is a bit over the top?

 

the class is way better than it was pre 2.0, there is no arguing that. the most important changes in 2.0 were shortening the burst rotation for gunnery and TO having 2 charges; it allowed us to be much more mobile and not be entirely shut down by a single interrupt. thats why i dont suggest much for that tree, its in a good place imo.

 

assault and combat medic still are in need of help tho. assault is just a mess, and combat medic has some bad talent tree organization and is a couple utility skills/talents short of being able to match scoundrel/sage healing.

Edited July 29, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[TheCourier-]

assault and combat medic still are in need of help tho. assault is just a mess, and combat medic has some bad talent tree organization and is a couple utility skills/talents short of being able to match scoundrel/sage healing.

 

There is a reason that commando medic does not do the amount of healing of sage and scoundrels. Commandos have heavy armor, sage does not. When SWTOR was first launched, commando medics were literally tanks due to their healing, ammo cost per heal, and heavy armor. Commando healing isn't bad. Don't believe me? Play imperial side and watch some of the strong commando medics such as Markoss or Aux play. Just because scoundrel has a lot of survivability and very high HPS does not mean that commando is bad at healing.

 

Some people might say, "well, why aren't commando medics invited to play ranked?". Most classes in SWTOR only have 1-2 viable trees for ranked. Sniper is the only class that has 3 viable ranked trees. Marauder has 1 (carnage is just for huttball for movement speed buffing, rage is the only viable spec for marauder), scoundrel has 1, powertech has 1 (pyro), jedi shadow has 1 (2 if infiltration is counted). Arsenal spec is a very strong spec for ranked. Some teams on Pot5 have used arsenal mercenaries for ranked.

[oaceen]

There is a reason that commando medic does not do the amount of healing of sage and scoundrels. Commandos have heavy armor, sage does not.

 

sages have bubbles, force mend, and a better escape since it's faster and on a much shorter cd

 

 

i don't think you can really say 'combat medics have more armor, therefore they should heal less'

i doubt that's really a metric bioware is even considering. i think it's more 'sages have light armor, so we'll give them some survivability tools to compensate'

Edited July 29, 2013 by oaceen

[ArchangelLBC]

There is a reason that commando medic does not do the amount of healing of sage and scoundrels. Commandos have heavy armor, sage does not. When SWTOR was first launched, commando medics were literally tanks due to their healing, ammo cost per heal, and heavy armor. Commando healing isn't bad. Don't believe me? Play imperial side and watch some of the strong commando medics such as Markoss or Aux play. Just because scoundrel has a lot of survivability and very high HPS does not mean that commando is bad at healing.

 

Some people might say, "well, why aren't commando medics invited to play ranked?". Most classes in SWTOR only have 1-2 viable trees for ranked. Sniper is the only class that has 3 viable ranked trees. Marauder has 1 (carnage is just for huttball for movement speed buffing, rage is the only viable spec for marauder), scoundrel has 1, powertech has 1 (pyro), jedi shadow has 1 (2 if infiltration is counted). Arsenal spec is a very strong spec for ranked. Some teams on Pot5 have used arsenal mercenaries for ranked.

 

 

That is and continues to be the worst justification for Commando healers being subpar I've ever seen. Back before 1.2 it would have been fine but then the utility benefits from kolto bomb and SCC were also much stronger. The class has never recovered from those nerfs really.

 

I as well can only comment on the PVP side of things.

 

As a Commando Healer it is one of the strongest defensive cooldowns we have. Maybe thats where we have different opinions because you play dps (I believe any way, correct me if I am wrong) and I play CM. With that said, it could have totally different uses too us.

 

I must have missed the talent in the CM tree that turned AR into a really good defensive cooldown?

 

All you PVPers saying it'd make us OP can all pound sand as far as I'm concerned. If all you can say is "that's a bit much", then all I hear is "no please don't make them as good as everyone else".

Edited July 29, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[TheCourier-]

 

I must have missed the talent in the CM tree that turned AR into a really good defensive cooldown?

 

All you PVPers saying it'd make us OP can all pound sand as far as I'm concerned. If all you can say is "that's a bit much", then all I hear is "no please don't make them as good as everyone else".

 

You obviously do not PVP very often. I've played with Markoss for years, and he consistently plays well with his mercenary. Regardless of whether or not you PVP a lot, Bioware makes a lot of decisions regarding which classes get buffed based on PVP.

 

Talking about adrenaline rush, the new adrenaline rush is way better than the old adrenaline rush. I prefer the new adrenaline rush for my commando (I actually have a commando, but I play imperial side, so, I don't play my commando often now. I played a commando republic side prior to server transfers.). The old adrenaline rush didn't do much at all. The new adrenaline rush can easily regenerate over 20% health (activate at 10% health, AR regenerates health to 30%, get hit by charged burst, which does say 2500 damage, which is approximately 8.33% health, AR regenerates health to 30%).

Edited July 29, 2013 by TheCourier-

[TheCourier-]

sages have bubbles, force mend, and a better escape since it's faster and on a much shorter cd

 

 

i don't think you can really say 'combat medics have more armor, therefore they should heal less'

i doubt that's really a metric bioware is even considering. i think it's more 'sages have light armor, so we'll give them some survivability tools to compensate'

 

Force barrier is on a 3 minute CD. Force shield is a primary part of sage healing.

 

Force speed has a 20 second CD, and is a 2 second 150% movement speed increase. Hydraulic overrides is on a fast CD, and lasts 6 seconds. For arsenal spec, hydraulic overrides lasts 10 seconds.

[oaceen]

Force barrier is on a 3 minute CD. Force shield is a primary part of sage healing.

 

Force speed has a 20 second CD, and is a 2 second 150% movement speed increase. Hydraulic overrides is on a fast CD, and lasts 6 seconds. For arsenal spec, hydraulic overrides lasts 10 seconds.

 

yes, thank you, but i did know all of that.

 

i thought we were comparing healers to healers though, so force speed lasts 3s, right?

hold the line is 30s. i suppose it's a relatively fast cooldown, and for PVP combat medics, it's actually 25s.

and since it wasn't mentioned, HtL gives +30% movement for the duration.

 

 

all of that said, i'm not sure what this is adding to the conversation.

[SpaniardInfinity]

sages have bubbles, force mend, and a better escape since it's faster and on a much shorter cd

 

 

i don't think you can really say 'combat medics have more armor, therefore they should heal less'

i doubt that's really a metric bioware is even considering. i think it's more 'sages have light armor, so we'll give them some survivability tools to compensate'

 

Seriously, if you can crack the code on how Bioware balances, I would love to know how they do it.

 

That is and continues to be the worst justification for Commando healers being subpar I've ever seen. Back before 1.2 it would have been fine but then the utility benefits from kolto bomb and SCC were also much stronger. The class has never recovered from those nerfs really.

 

I must have missed the talent in the CM tree that turned AR into a really good defensive cooldown?

 

All you PVPers saying it'd make us OP can all pound sand as far as I'm concerned. If all you can say is "that's a bit much", then all I hear is "no please don't make them as good as everyone else".

 

The 1.2 nerfs were utterly overkill. I think the only spec that could make a better case for overkill nerfing is Assault/Pyro. It was a two-pronged nerf -- they cut output while simultaneously cutting ammo efficiency. They should have done one or the other, and I think it should have been the former rather than the latter. Ammo management has always been fairly unforgiving on a CM -- 1.2 really made it a whole lot worse.

 

And I do agree to an extent that AR is better than the old one. Before I would use AR as a throwaway cooldown. If, for example, I needed to heal myself but didn't want/have the time to heal myself (such as when I'm keeping my team alive), I'd just let AR do 15% of the job. Now, assuming the thing actually triggers, its pretty damn difficult to kill me when the thing is up. Yes, if a bunch of people are attacking me it probably won't work, but in those situations I am almost universally at a numbers disadvantage (maybe its me and one other player v 3+ of the enemy) and should lose. The cooldown on the thing does need a review, though. And even if the thing isn't perfect, I do like the direction we're going.

 

As for making the class overpowered, I can see their argument from the CM perspective. To be completely honest, from just looking at the suggestions for CM in the OP, if Bioware implemented every single one of them word for word, the class would be overpowered. There is no doubt in my mind, in the same way that if CM was rolled back to 1.1 (but kept their interrupt, in-combat revive, etc) it would be overpowered. The class has all the tools it needs, they just need to synergize a little bit more. I'm telling you that with Commando healers less is more. To be honest, I'd love to see that change to Bacta Infusion -- and only that change -- added and see how it does. I think it would really make a tremendous difference. Then work on the control and utility and the spec would be golden.

[oaceen]

Seriously, if you can crack the code on how Bioware balances, I would love to know how they do it.

 

well if you think commandos should heal less than sages because they have heavy armor, then i don't know else to say that i haven't said already.

[SpaniardInfinity]

well if you think commandos should heal less than sages because they have heavy armor, then i don't know else to say that i haven't said already.

 

No, they shouldn't heal less because Commandos have heavy armor. Sages will always do more healing as long as they are the game's group healer. Until Commando's single target healing becomes indisputably the best, or until their weakness at group healing is removed, they will always trail a Sage in overall healing when unchecked, both in PVE and PVP. In my opinion the group healing weakness is justified because they are good single target healers, sustainable, and have good survivability. Unfortunately, in PVE, the survivability part drops out or at the very least is less valuable than your output. In PVP, Sages heal more but die more (glass cannon), Commandos heal less but die less (heal-tank). That's balanced in my book.

Edited July 29, 2013 by SpaniardInfinity

[ArchangelLBC]

You obviously do not PVP very often. I've played with Markoss for years, and he consistently plays well with his mercenary. Regardless of whether or not you PVP a lot, Bioware makes a lot of decisions regarding which classes get buffed based on PVP.

 

Talking about adrenaline rush, the new adrenaline rush is way better than the old adrenaline rush. I prefer the new adrenaline rush for my commando (I actually have a commando, but I play imperial side, so, I don't play my commando often now. I played a commando republic side prior to server transfers.). The old adrenaline rush didn't do much at all. The new adrenaline rush can easily regenerate over 20% health (activate at 10% health, AR regenerates health to 30%, get hit by charged burst, which does say 2500 damage, which is approximately 8.33% health, AR regenerates health to 30%).

 

"Better than the old Adrenaline Rush" and "Really good defensive cooldown" aren't the same at all. AR is objectively worse now for most PVE situations since it has a 30% threshold (I used to use it in the DG fight during lightning field so that in combination with Reflexive Shield I took practically no damage) and I hear mixed things from the PVP side since lets face it; It isn't going to save you if you get focused since incoming DPS can outmatch the HPS of the talent when it bothers to activate. In addition, no one in their right mind could say the cooldown for the thing is actually balanced. AR should either boost damage or should have no health threshold above which it stops healing you. Fine have it trigger at 30%, but let it heal you all the way to full. THEN it would be a pretty good CD in both aspects of the game and even if the cooldown was reduced to 2 minutes, it still wouldn't be overpowered.

 

But hey no lets pretend that there's only one aspect of the game where both of our cooldowns should be considered even remotely useful.

 

Finally, yes sage numbers are artificially inflated by salvation, and I'm fine with that, but commandos should be able to match scoundrels pound for pound, and in PVP I just don't think that's true because of the very powerful scoundrel hots which don't need to be casted. In PVE I'll let others comment. I've seen excellent commando healers, but none I talk to pretend that resource management is something you can easily screw around with.

[cashogy_reborn]

There is a reason that commando medic does not do the amount of healing of sage and scoundrels. Commandos have heavy armor, sage does not. When SWTOR was first launched, commando medics were literally tanks due to their healing, ammo cost per heal, and heavy armor. Commando healing isn't bad. Don't believe me? Play imperial side and watch some of the strong commando medics such as Markoss or Aux play. Just because scoundrel has a lot of survivability and very high HPS does not mean that commando is bad at healing.

 

Some people might say, "well, why aren't commando medics invited to play ranked?". Most classes in SWTOR only have 1-2 viable trees for ranked. Sniper is the only class that has 3 viable ranked trees. Marauder has 1 (carnage is just for huttball for movement speed buffing, rage is the only viable spec for marauder), scoundrel has 1, powertech has 1 (pyro), jedi shadow has 1 (2 if infiltration is counted). Arsenal spec is a very strong spec for ranked. Some teams on Pot5 have used arsenal mercenaries for ranked.

 

first of all, heavy armor gives <10% more defensive mitigation. it is by no means the difference maker for why sage heals are so much better. the heavy armor never had anything to do with it.

 

commando healers were so good at the beginning of the game for the exact same reason everyone thought grav round/tracer missile was overpowered: hardly anyone knew how to use an interrupt.

 

no one said its not strong in the hands of a good player. but there should be parity between the heal specs; mando/merc is way, way behind sage and scoundrel in a PvP setting.

 

gunny/arsenal is RWZ viable now. ive done a whole bunch on my commando over the last few months and done very well. but i do not think it is outrageous to suggest that all talent trees be equally viable in their roles; just because bioware has thus far failed to do that with most classes does not mean we shouldnt want them to start.

 

as far as AR, its trash. it really is. if you dont drop below 30% health it does nothing and has (for all intents and purposes) a 4 minute cooldown. the HPS it outputs is not enough to overcome even 2 enemies attacking you. that is not to say that there havent been times it has kept me alive, but in overall usefullness it is really not very useful. i did not like the previous iteration of AR either; it was really only good for running between fights in PvP. it needs to have a shorter cooldown at the very least, but should be redesigned.

 

 

if you are just going to come in here and complain about mando/merc, like i have seen you do in various other places, you can save it. the point of this thread was to generate discussions on ways to improve the class. if you have nothing but whining to add, i respectfully ask you to not participate in the discussion.

[TheCourier-]

 

if you are just going to come in here and complain about mando/merc, like i have seen you do in various other places, you can save it. the point of this thread was to generate discussions on ways to improve the class. if you have nothing but whining to add, i respectfully ask you to not participate in the discussion.

 

Whining? If you want commando to get trashed the same way that scrapper scoundrel did, then keep proposing drastic buffs to a class that is already performing well. Bioware does not leave specs that are massively outperforming other specs alone for long (look at scrapper scoundrel and pyro PT). If commando were to get all of the buffs that you suggested, then commando would get nerfed more than it did around the start of SWTOR. Do you want your class to get utterly destroyed similar to how watchman spec, scrapper, and TK sage did?

[cashogy_reborn]

Whining? If you want commando to get trashed the same way that scrapper scoundrel did, then keep proposing drastic buffs to a class that is already performing well. Bioware does not leave specs that are massively outperforming other specs alone for long (look at scrapper scoundrel and pyro PT). If commando were to get all of the buffs that you suggested, then commando would get nerfed more than it did around the start of SWTOR. Do you want your class to get utterly destroyed similar to how watchman spec, scrapper, and TK sage did?

 

gunnery is performing well. 1 spec out of 3.

 

the overwhelming majority of what is in the OP are suggestions to improve the 2 specs that are in need of improvement: combat medic and assault.

 

like i said, its clear you have nothing constructive to add. if you want to suggest something, or make the case that some of my suggestions are unnecessary, please do so. but you posting repeatedly that we are all dumb for thinking the class needs more changes is not conducive to further constructive discussion.

[TheCourier-]

gunnery is performing well. 1 spec out of 3.

 

the overwhelming majority of what is in the OP are suggestions to improve the 2 specs that are in need of improvement: combat medic and assault.

 

like i said, its clear you have nothing constructive to add. if you want to suggest something, or make the case that some of my suggestions are unnecessary, please do so. but you posting repeatedly that we are all dumb for thinking the class needs more changes is not conducive to further constructive discussion.

 

I didn't say that you're all dumb. I believe that Aux and Markoss are the only people whose main characters are mercenaries and posted in this thread are recommending serious opinions about how to buff commando's medic spec. Aux, for example, said buff 1 thing at a time, not massively overhaul the entire medic spec. Markoss said make adrenaline rush on a faster CD, which is 1 buff. You recommended a lot of massive buffs to commando.

[cashogy_reborn]

I didn't say that you're all dumb. I believe that Aux and Markoss are the only people whose main characters are mercenaries and posted in this thread are recommending serious opinions about how to buff commando's medic spec. Aux, for example, said buff 1 thing at a time, not massively overhaul the entire medic spec. Markoss said make adrenaline rush on a faster CD, which is 1 buff. You recommended a lot of massive buffs to commando.

 

for starters, no one is expecting any of this to be implemented. all specific class feedback, other than QQ, has been 100% ignored by the devs.

 

second, i would love for the devs to make small changes here and there, and over time things would improve. sadly, that is not how things work here. we got 6-9 months with no class balance changes, and then get a patch where massive changes are being made.

 

think of this as a wish list.

[TheCourier-]

For those who don't believe that I actually have a commando:

 

http://i.imgur.com/d9Is0F7.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/KOQIWdW.jpg .

[cashogy_reborn]

For those who don't believe that I actually have a commando:

 

http://i.imgur.com/d9Is0F7.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/KOQIWdW.jpg .

 

i thought you said you had one a few pages ago? nobody was questioning whether you played it or not.

 

 

and i just realized who Aux is; he helped me organize/flesh out many of the suggestions in the combat medic section.

[TheCourier-]

i thought you said you had one a few pages ago? nobody was questioning whether you played it or not.

 

 

and i just realized who Aux is; he helped me organize/flesh out many of the suggestions in the combat medic section.

 

Yeah, I played with and against Aux a lot, and he was easily one of the best commando medics from Jedi Covenant. Aux saying for 1 buff at a time for commandos has a lot of weight, imo.

[cashogy_reborn]

Yeah, I played with and against Aux a lot, and he was easily one of the best commando medics from Jedi Covenant. Aux saying for 1 buff at a time for commandos has a lot of weight, imo.

 

yeah, i just re-read his post, and i 100% agree with him.

 

the bacta infusion chane would be a great 1 change to implement, and imo would have a very positive effect w/out making the spec overpowered

[schooch]

. Markoss said make adrenaline rush on a faster CD.

 

well I was just saying one way to tweak AR, not buff the class.