Yet Another Bolster Bug...Is It Time To Scrap The System Yet?

[Avicii]

He is right you a very wrong bolster works only in lowbies in 55,s it is terrible to say the least I have been through every change since beta saw some very bad changes to pvp this is by far the biggest mistake BW have done so far

 

Lol it's not by far the biggest mistake were you here when subs dropped like a rock months after release the causes of that were the worst mistakes. This is so freaking minor boohoo its got a bug they are going to occur what actual game breaking bug is there?

 

As for the dude on a warpath to denounce bolster who has "many friends who spends hundreds on CM stuff" of course nice one there, it's not leaving you are wasting your time. I could careless either way but the constant whining and entitlement laced with out right fabrications or at best exaggeration gets old. Queue times aren't slowing down and RWZs are cracking with transfers bolster isn't effecting that.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Avicii

[Hessen]

At 55, there's no reward at all for pvping

 

The sad belief of modern gamers, specifically most PvPers, that is ruining gaming.

 

Oh for the good old days when people enjoyed the experience itself without needing a virtual carrot for every step.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Hessen

[SomeJagoff]

The sad belief of modern gamers, specifically most PvPers, that is ruining gaming.

 

Oh for the good old days when people enjoyed the experience itself without needing a virtual carrot for every step.

 

k, remove kell dragon gear from nightmare ops and see if people keep running the same ops over and over every week.

[Hessen]

k, remove kell dragon gear from nightmare ops and see if people keep running the same ops over and over every week.

 

There is PvP gear that is gated by being 55 and grinding valor and commendations.

 

There is PvE gear that is gated by being 55 and grinding operations.

 

Once that gear is obtained, what more carrot do you think there should be?

[SomeJagoff]

There is PvP gear that is gated by being 55 and grinding valor and commendations.

 

There is PvE gear that is gated by being 55 and grinding operations.

 

Once that gear is obtained, what more carrot do you think there should be?

 

bolster has made the pvp gear worthless much in the same way that bolster in ops would make the ops gear worthless.

 

If you could down nightmare ops with a PVE bolster that gave the "minimum power level" to down the content, what would be the point of getting the gear? So you could have uber gear and do the same damage as some guy wearing his greens from korriban? That's the problem.

 

There is no carrot for pvp players due to bolster at 55. There's no motivation/incentive to improve your gear if you do just as well in crafted pve gear.

 

Then add in the fact that just by virtue of having bolster at 55, there are gear bugs/glitches/exploits/whatever EVERY week in pvp, then there's really no point in pvping, because if you're not privy to whatever the current bug of the week is, you're going to be less competitive.

 

It's not just the implementation that has been flawed, the idea itself is flawed. Don't fix something that isn't broken. Gear progression has been a part of pvp since launch and is a part of nearly every other mmo out there, remove gear progression, then there's really no incentive.

[Huckdabuck]

k, remove kell dragon gear from nightmare ops and see if people keep running the same ops over and over every week.

 

Please explain why people do EV/KP/EC then? I don't know a single 55 that needs the level 50 gear that those ops drop yet people still go into those ops and complete them. The weekly comms are nice but hardly a reason to go do them. Pure enjoyment of playing the game is about the only reason I can come up with. That's also why I play about 15-20 pvp matches a day!

[Hessen]

So there are carrots, but they're the wrong type of carrots.

 

No wonder people laugh at the PvP community in games like this these days. Back in the "good old days" there were very few carrots, if any, and people played the game because they liked playing the game, not because they got rewarded.

 

You don't win a trophy everytime you play a game of monopoly with your family. Or have a game of football in the park with some local guys on a Sunday afternoon.

 

WoW has a lot to answer for.

[SomeJagoff]

Please explain why people do EV/KP/EC then? I don't know a single 55 that needs the level 50 gear that those ops drop yet people still go into those ops and complete them. The weekly comms are nice but hardly a reason to go do them. Pure enjoyment of playing the game is about the only reason I can come up with. That's also why I play about 15-20 pvp matches a day!

 

weekly ultimate comms, that's why people run HM ev/kp/ec. I don't think anyone runs sm of those ops anymore unless they're using the group finder to gear up alts. I highly doubt any guilds that have people in full 69s/72s run ev sm every week.

[SomeJagoff]

So there are carrots, but they're the wrong type of carrots.

 

No wonder people laugh at the PvP community in games like this these days. Back in the "good old days" there were very few carrots, if any, and people played the game because they liked playing the game, not because they got rewarded.

 

You don't win a trophy everytime you play a game of monopoly with your family. Or have a game of football in the park with some local guys on a Sunday afternoon.

 

WoW has a lot to answer for.

 

you can blame wow if you want, but pretty much every online game has something now, achievements, weapon unlocks in cod/bf, etc. If the gameplay were actually interesting/new/innovative, that wouldn't be necessary, but if it's just the same rehashed content in every game with simply a different theme, there's very little to keep people playing, thus, there's a need for carrots.

 

I like Football just as much as the next person, but this isn't football.

[ShatteredVision]

Not sure which is the bigger joke: bolster or the people who defend it.

[Hessen]

I like Football just as much as the next person, but this isn't football.

 

Indeed, this is Huttball.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Hessen

[znihilist]

weekly ultimate comms, that's why people run HM ev/kp/ec. I don't think anyone runs sm of those ops anymore unless they're using the group finder to gear up alts. I highly doubt any guilds that have people in full 69s/72s run ev sm every week.

 

We do run them in full 69/72 EV SM mode, IT IS FUN!! I try to do every available OPs in all modes.

Edited July 15, 2013 by znihilist

[SomeJagoff]

Indeed, this is Huttball.

 

=D

 

We do run them in full 69/72 EV SM mode, IT IS FUN!! I try to do every available OPs in all modes.

 

every week?

Edited July 15, 2013 by SomeJagoff

[znihilist]

=D

 

 

 

every week?

Short answer yes.

Long answer: In summer we don't run OPs (mid July to end of August people on vacation and what not) but yes we have a free night every week where we spend it fooling around in these OPs, we don't really need the comms anymore, we just do these OPs for fun. And we try silly things, like all basic attacks, naked except weapons, understaffed, overstaffed, etc etc.

Edited July 15, 2013 by znihilist

[SomeJagoff]

Short answer yes.

Long answer: In summer we don't run OPs (mid July to end of August people on vacation and what not) but yes we have a free night every week where we spend it fooling around in these OPs, we don't really need the comms anymore, we just do these OPs for fun. And we try silly things, like all basic attacks, naked except weapons, understaffed, overstaffed, etc etc.

 

gotcha, though, I'm pretty sure your guild is probably in the minority on that one.

 

In any case, this new bug needs a dev response.

[HighCounsil]

Switch offhands and lose ~200 force/tech bonus damage. Noticed this when switching shield out for generator

 

Endgame shield provides 200+ less force/tech power than a generator/focus of the same rating.

Edited July 15, 2013 by HighCounsil

[SomeJagoff]

Endgame shield provides 200+ less force/tech power than a generator/focus of the same rating.

 

I had a shield on. I took the shield off. I put a generator on. My bonus damage as a whole (not force/tech power) went down by around 200. I put the shield back on, bonus damage went down further.

[HighCounsil]

I will try it out. Last time I tried it on my VG though it was absolutely in reverse: with shield I had 1050 dmg, with generator was hovering at 1250+.

[funkiestj]

I will try it out. Last time I tried it on my VG though it was absolutely in reverse: with shield I had 1050 dmg, with generator was hovering at 1250+.

 

The point is: do I lose some amount of offhand bolster if I unequip and re-equip my offhand?

 

If yes, this is another disgusting bolster bug. E.g. I enter WZ and see there are 3 other tanks. I might want to respec DPS and change my gear (including offhand). Whoops!

[Huckdabuck]

gotcha, though, I'm pretty sure your guild is probably in the minority on that one.

 

In any case, this new bug needs a dev response.

 

Not as much a minority as you may assume! I know of quiet a few guilds who do the SM/HM EV/KP/EC runs on weekends and whatnot just to have something to do besides the boring dailies once they have completed the weekly S&V/TfB. Guilds I'm currently associated with as well as guilds I've been fortunate enough to be a part of in the past! As previously stated....it's all about the FUN/EXCITEMENT of playing a video game (PvE or PvP). If I needed a carrot to have any fun then it would definitely be time for me to take a break from the game.

 

In any case.............turn on, tune in, drop out!

[SomeJagoff]

I will try it out. Last time I tried it on my VG though it was absolutely in reverse: with shield I had 1050 dmg, with generator was hovering at 1250+.

 

Going from a focus to a shield, you will lose some force/techpower, but that will end up lowering your Bonus Damage by ~50, not by ~200. Also keep in mind mainhand/offhand are bolstered to the highest pve level, so the ratings of the shield/focus will be the same, but as you said, shields have less force/techpower. This is yet another bolster bug.

 

 

The point is: do I lose some amount of offhand bolster if I unequip and re-equip my offhand?

 

Yes. If you unequip/reequip the SAME offhand, you'll lose the 200 bonus damage. If you switch offhands (i.e., between shield and focus or pve offhand vs pvp offhand if you just finished a flashpoint or something), you still lose 200 bonus damage.

 

So 1 day so far without a dev response.

Edited July 16, 2013 by SomeJagoff

[Ottoattack]

Bolster, should have been removed before it was ever implemented. There are way much easier ways to reduce the gear gap, but the bolster was not the way to go and is not working as intended. Why?

 

1- It is too complicated for its own good. It could not handle different inputs between different level of PvE gear, PvP gear, mixing PvP and PvE gear and old PvP gear. That's why, 3 and half month after launch we still have bugs and exploits and we will continoue to have bugs and exploits forever, because the system is too complicated that even the game devs are not sure how exactly does it work. Where is the mathy post BW promised? It is not here for a reason.

 

2- PvE gear works in mysterious ways. It peaks in power between levels 61 through 66, to the extent it almost match PvP gear in effectiveness, then drop hard in effectiveness from level 69 on wards as the expertise lost does not come close to the stats gained. Shouldn't top PvE gear work better than lower PvE gear in WZs? People defending bolster, please explain how is the this working as intended?

 

3- Decreased accessibility for end game between PvP and PvE. This supposedly was the primary purpose of the bolster, to decrease gap for people in PvE gear for end game PvPing. As mentioned in the point above, anyone in high end PvE gear is at a significant disadvantage compared to PvP gear, so top raiders are still discouraged from end game PvPing, while fresh 55s can compete normally.

 

4- Building on the point above, people in PvP gear are at a significant disadvantage in PvE environment. While it makes sense that people in PvE gear would be better off, making top PvP gear (lvl 65) lower than entry level ops (lvl 66) surely reduce the accessibility. The bigger problem, is the majority of the game (FPs, dailies and ops) is PvE. PvP gear, while not BiS should be viable for competitive PvE play. Heck, before expansion my dps PT used to parse high enough for lvl 61 PvE content, which was the highest content PvE wise. And gear makes a difference in running dailies and making money, putting PvPers at a severe disadvantage outside WZs.

 

5- No carrot at the end of the stick. Any sense of progression is lost, because entry level 55 gear is equal in power (or slightly weaker) than PvP gear. In addition, one of the joys of any mmo is to watch your toons get stronger. I just purchased new piece and my damage increased by 3 points . I am aiming to have my critic at 25.55%. The sense of achievement, and the ability to measure your character's effectiveness preceisley is completely gone.

 

6- Again, being able to measure your toons exact stats is important for competitive play, which simply can't be done with lolster.

 

7- What is BiS gear in PvP. Few weeks back it was purple crafted level 63 gear. The word is lvl 61 and 63 PvE weapons work best. Matrix cube is BiS for one spot for relics. While, conqueror, for the most part is BiS, its not a 100%; not for every piece, and no one knows exactly whats BiS in every piece, 3 and half month after bolster launch. Is this working as intended?

 

8- Finally, while this has no actual impact, the idea of the bolster for end game itself feels dumb. I am at max level, why do I need a stats modifier? Shouldn't my stats get maxed out based on gear?! It just feels very lack luster, knowing that the stats on the gear is garbage and it gets bolstered in the WZ.

 

The question I always have, is why we did not stick with the old system, and provide anyone a minimum of 900 expertise compared to 1390 max? Pre-expansion this would have put top PvE gear slightly below first tier of PvP gear. Recruit could have been removed with no problems. Instead we get this fiasco called bolster. BW wasted horrendous amount of time to recreate the wheel, then made it rectangular. No $hit it does not work. This reminds me of the late 60s, 70s, when the us spent millions of dollars to make a pen that can write in space, while the Russians simply used pencils...

 

BTW, I know multiple people who left the game, or only PvE now, because of the bolster (along with other bad changes in PvP). PvP ques, at least on my server, are significantly longer than they were 3-4 month ago at peak times. It is not a question of bolster working or not. It is not. It is a question of when BW will scrap. It is not successfully reducing PvP gap, nor fostering competitive PvP environment, plus all of the other unintended issues and exploits it created. All I see on devs end is lack of manpower, ego or combination of both. That's why we scraped on old working system in favor of new non-working one and 3 and half month after its launch it is still here and not working as intended.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Ottoattack

[Huckdabuck]

Bolster, should have been removed before it was ever implemented. There are way much easier ways to reduce the gear gap, but the bolster was not the way to go and is not working as intended.

 

Just my attempt at a viable post/rebuttal and in no way do I believe that bolster is the best thing since sliced bread:

 

While bolster wasn't originally implemented smoothly it is what it is and appears to be here to stay (at least for the foreseeable future). Just because you think it's not working as intended doesn't mean it's not working as the Devs initially intended or as close as they can get. Just something to ponder.

 

1. I would think the mathy stuff in question would be somewhat proprietary in nature and as such not available to average joe gamer to view (at least in full detail).

 

2. IIRC...bolster was designed to boost the lower level gear to the appropriate level (carrot stick gear) dropped gear.

 

3. I didn't start grinding religiously PvP'n until I had mixed 69s/72s and did just fine. In fact I enjoyed PvP enough to grind out my full min/max'd Partisan set so this statement is just false or a server based opinion.

 

4. I've done a few HM FPs/SM OPS with my 55 sorc who is in min/max'd Partisan and have done just as good as I would have in mixed 66/69s.

 

5. If I needed a carrot to enjoy this game then I really need to take a break from gaming since I'm not truly enjoying what I'm doing. Gear is nice but it shouldn't be the be all end all reason to play.

 

6. Get the gear and then go into a WZ. You get to check out your stats immediately that way. If you don't know which set/stats are important for your toon then check the forums for BiS PvP posts. Most classes have min/max'd posts out there so there is no guess work involved anymore.

 

7. BiS will always be PvP gear in a PvP WZ or area save the relic bug at the moment. Then again 1 piece is not going to make that BIG of a difference but that's just my opinion.

 

8. As I am not a dev/programmer/techy, I have no clue as to why ALL (10-55) players are bolstered but I'm sure it has to do with background coding/techy talk/blah blah blah but I'm pretty sure it would be difficult to separate which 55's need bolstering due to the lack of PvP gear with expertise.

 

By the way, I now see more people (some bads/noobs/newbs and some people who are going to be pretty good) coming into PvP WZs and enjoying the experience since bolster has been implemented. I honestly haven't waited longer than 5 minutes for a non-ranked PvP queue pop since 2.0 dropped (I'm on the Harbinger so yes it's a populated server) on any of my toons (multiple 55's and lowbies) and at any time while I'm on (5 pm CST - 2 am CST M-F).

[SomeJagoff]

5. If I needed a carrot to enjoy this game then I really need to take a break from gaming since I'm not truly enjoying what I'm doing. Gear is nice but it shouldn't be the be all end all reason to play.

 

If a PVE bolster was implemented, once you downed the operations/flashpoints a few times, you'd have no incentive to keep playing. Heck right now PVEers unsub once they've downed the content a handful of times and got all their gear. PVP at least had staying power, but when you see PVP players unsubbing en masse because of a fundamental change to the game, that staying power becomes moot.

 

This is an MMO after all, and a fundamental part of that experience is getting better gear. If there's no new/better gear to get, there's no incentive to grind for it. Most players have the gear mentality, if not pvp players, then ABSOLUTELY pve players. Toy with the idea of removing their gear progression and they'll be in an uproar all over the forums, so much so that it would put all of the QQ in the entire pvp forums to shame.

 

I'm not sure if Bolster was bioware's way of trying to address the premade vs pug problem, by trying to remove the gear advantage of premades, but with or without gear, premades by and large still stomp pugs regardless. But now, pugs really have nothing to show for getting stomped. No idea if that was a motivating factor behind bolster, but if it was, really flawed thinking, since it takes almost no time to get a full set of pvp gear.

 

A full set of pvp gear takes a week at most to get, if you grind nonstop wins, you can get a full set in a couple of days. So really, bioware has taken away gear progression from PVPers so that non-PVPers wouldn't have to get stomped (or carried) in either recruit or pve gear for 2-7 days til they got a full set.

 

In any case, 2 days now without a dev response about the bug in the original post of this thread.

[Anthraxal]

Bolster is buggy, there's no denying it. But Bolster is a symptom of something deeper. It's a bandaid to a PvP system that is flawed because of the separated itemization and of Expertize.

 

Let's be blunt clear : as long as PvP mechanics revolve around this system, there will be no stability and no consensus. Like, ever.

 

Separated itemization creates a double standard that can't reconcile the different orientations of the playerbase and is toxic to a community spirit.

 

Persisting in this way, as Bioware and EA are predictably going to do, is the certitude of a failure.