randiesel Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Warning: This'll probably be long Thank you to the people who nominated me above in the class rep thread. I don't know that I'd make a great rep of the class overall (mostly as I focus to one spec about 90% of the time, that being scrapper), but I do appreciate it nonetheless. I think the primary problem with the Scrapper spec is that there is no middle road. I think in 1v1 situations, we are pretty damn lethal and can beat most anyone 1v1 to take a node (can always stealth cap to avoid combat). I think we are terrible in the group-based combat dept and have terrible survivability. The rogue class archetype has always been plagued by this last one, and we are therefore blessed with the fact that the class is not completely useless since Sawbones is amazing for healing. There have been times, even post-2.0, where I have opened up on someone (usually not a heavy armored target) and gotten a full string of crits, giving me the ability to fully down the target from 100% - 0% while they are stunlocked. While I think it is cool, it is an instance where I think to myself "gee, that didn't take any skill on my part to win that fight". There are also times where I don't get full crits, but I'm able to root the target in place afterward with Tendon Blast and still kill them from mid-range and get away virtually unscathed. When the actual fight that happens involves you being at 100% hp and them at say 25% hp and they have only that last quarter of their life to attack you, there's not much you need to worry about to end that battle in your favor. I don't really see much skill is required, and lets be completely honest, everyone only thinks of the class as the "no skill stealthy who can stunlock from 100% - 0%". That obviously doesn't happen very often, but to the masses that's how they still see us because it happened to them that one time and it is the first thing they call to memory. I do, however, think the class requires a ton of skill to be competitive and successful in out-of-stealth combat, if only in the regular warzone scene. It's obviously easier for you to to well if you are in a premade vs solo-queued, but still you don't have much in the way of staying alive out of stealth doing your thing. With the changes made in 2.0 with all ranged classes being much deadlier than they were, it makes it very hard to survive. Of the classes I've played, I think an out of stealth scrapper requires a good degree of skill to play. We have good sustained dps regardless now that it was addressed, so this viewpoint is strictly on being the guy who did well and was able to do so only b/c he survived. So, given the above, I say again, there is no middle ground. We are either extremely efficient at being a solo killer due to putting much of that combat in our own favor from the get-go, or we are extremely inefficient while fighting with your group against another group where you are susceptible to AoE damage,, stuns, mezzes, etc. The thing is, 1.0 is never going to happen again, so I'd have to say the way things are will probably be as good as it'll ever get for the scrapper spec. I think 1.7 was way better than it is now, but ranged dps needs to be competitive too and I only see things remaining unchanged for the foreseeable future. To touch on that last part, the class is always going to have the same (lame) cooldowns that are really good as a healer, but not so hot as a scrapper. That is, my thoughts here are relative to the way scrappers will always be, not just a current assessment. In every other MMO expansion I've experienced, we got new abilities. With TOR, we all simply got a single move to our chosen AC. Other MMOs have had new abilities added to each respective skill tree, so it further differentiates each spec and changes dynamics of combat, specifically pvp combat. In TOR, we got a single move available to all 3 skill trees, but nothing essentially done to the trees except a minor tune-up. It's just level 50 +5 more levels and a roll. We still have the same 4 warzone maps that we've had since "vanilla", so really pvp is kinda lame in most regards anyway. TL;DR: I think the scrapper spec will continue on the same path it is going currently and holding onto hope that it'll be "addressed" in some manner for pvp is useless. When 3.0 comes along, who knows, maybe they'll expand each skill tree and give each tree their own new/fresh abilities like a real expansion should have. They'd still need to trim the fat from the scrapper tree and make it easier to stay alive in combat without having to roll away and heal up (with whatever little energy you'll have by that point). I'll continue to play my scrapper as an alt sometimes, and will post here as well here and there. Just was hoping to give a Devil's Advocate assessor on the scrapper skill tree for those still expecting the skill tree to be addressed for pvp reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euklidian_Space Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Lower bracket pvp is still fun as scrapper. Thats why you dont buy ROTHC, and stay in the lower bracket pvp for good lol. There is actually an incentive for an entire class to not buy ROTHC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randiesel Posted July 11, 2013 Author Share Posted July 11, 2013 Yeah, I totally agree. In addition I my 55 scoundrel and op I have a 52 Scoundrel and op both geared/augmented from level 50 EWH gear and they are a blast to play. Another thing I think scrappers are in desperate need of would be a skill tree talent which makes them invulnerable to the effects of taunt/mass taunt. We don't have an execute/finisher as it is and given how poor our survivability is, getting taunted and doing 30% less damage really sucks. Nothing is worse to a scrapper than losing your optimum burst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aikion Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 My reply to the other post on how to fix Scrapper spec. I don't think it's too much to ask for a slight re-balancing of the tree between expansions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerronCedric Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Another thing I think scrappers are in desperate need of would be a skill tree talent which makes them invulnerable to the effects of taunt/mass taunt. We don't have an execute/finisher as it is and given how poor our survivability is, getting taunted and doing 30% less damage really sucks. Nothing is worse to a scrapper than losing your optimum burst. oh yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowfoxs Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 I agree to new changes to the scrapper tree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nieky Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Well put together Ran. Thanks for your insight, always much appreciated. I have to agree with the above posts that Scrapper was a blast in pre-55 WZ's. I was consistently burning down enemies (regardless of class) in a manner that I thought was intended for this class. 55 PvP has been an eye opener, and this class becomes very much a "utility" class in that there are specific roles you are limited to, i.e. Node capper, ball carrier (albeit not for long distance), and agitator (chasing healers but not neccessarily killing them). I have to say my only saving grace is that I currently queue with a RL friend who plays an Infiltration Shadow. When we strike a targer together there is no stopping us. My heavy hitting opener with his back end "execution" damage is quite devastating and very fun. We can only hope that a patch and/or expansion will address our survivability and perhaps provide one additional "exection" style ability to get us through that last 25-30% in HP's for those 1v1 battles. In any event, i just completed my full partisan gear and have begun working on conquerer, I continue to play around with my stats and tactics and report back here with any findings. Thanks for all the support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipstik Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 i dont pvp, but i find that there are so many points in the scrapper tree that are a total waste of space. more endruance, mroe defense, stealth detection... i have no need for any of that... what i do need... more damage. and suprisingly i think we need another offensive ability. i used to be able to use sab charge off cd, but now ive been relegated to using quickshot to keep in good energy regen i just wanted to come in here and remind all you pvp'ers that you ahve done a huge number on pve, and ask that you be mindful of sharing this game with us pve'ers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randiesel Posted July 13, 2013 Author Share Posted July 13, 2013 i dont pvp, but i find that there are so many points in the scrapper tree that are a total waste of space. more endruance, mroe defense, stealth detection... i have no need for any of that... what i do need... more damage. and suprisingly i think we need another offensive ability. i used to be able to use sab charge off cd, but now ive been relegated to using quickshot to keep in good energy regen i just wanted to come in here and remind all you pvp'ers that you ahve done a huge number on pve, and ask that you be mindful of sharing this game with us pve'ers Last I heard, Scrapper is perfectly viable for raid dps now. Besides the fact that I agree with you on wasted points in the Scrapper tree, I did state that this was a pvp only assessment. As far as raiding is concerned, though, you truly do have every option of respecing for your fight and not have it affect your overall survivability and, potentially, ruin your night. I'm not really one to talk on raiding in TOR, but I did happen to put in years of raiding in Wow. Again, not that qualifies me to speak here, but playing a spec that allows you to do the best you can offensively while also ensuring your own survivability defensively is paramount in pvp. Being inconvenienced by having to "waste" talent points on extra endurance might seem annoying, but I can assure you not being able to live more than 10 seconds while playing your strongest skill tree for the setting is a completely different story. I empathize with you, though, so don't take that as anything negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainamoinen Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I think Ran's post in the class Rep thread (here) had some clear specific thoughts. We do need to get our burst off to really hurt people, and it's galling when our "rival" the infil shadow has Force Potency to help ensure just that. I've played shadow, it's great. I am hesitant to go for the all-out autocrit on Shoot First, or that and/or Shoot First out of stealth. It would be too powerful. But using a cd to give you a pretty good chance of a crit would be alright, to me. It would then also be available if you were in a continuing fight and wanted to enter a burst phase. The main problem is we're so squishy though. After 2.0, scoundrel is probably the squishiest AC. In particular, we're melee who have no defence against Smash, or for that matter any other aoe flying around in the fight. So giving us a cd to burn when we want to boost our chance of getting proper burst (without an autocrit that would make us the stunlocking FOTM uberkillers who'd inevitably need nerfing again), together with a talent high in scrapper (therefore unavailable to healers) to reduce aoe damage taken, would be obvious moves to make us more viable. My only slight hesitation with them is that they are so obvious, similar to what's available to shadows, when it may be devs want a classes to remain more individual (but most everyone else gets an aoe reduction option already, hey ho). I'd still say they need doing though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randiesel Posted July 14, 2013 Author Share Posted July 14, 2013 Sadly, the only way I see it being viable is to almost copy that of the Infil Shadow tree, rather than differentiating the 2. I don't see how else it could be accomplished. Quite honestly, we are a from-stealth fighter only, nothing more. I know I'll get crap for this, but if they cut the damage on SF to 1/3 of what it currently is (66% damage reduction on the talent, that's correct) and increased Backblast's damage to the level's Shadow Strike/Maul are, we'd be able to escape the whole negativity of our opener from stealth being OP. Then, boost our survivability with AoE damage reduction, rework Shield Probe to make it useful, reduce the dodge proc on scamper to something reasonable to make it useful (15 secs is ridiculous), and maybe even boost the AoE damage we can dish out by making Thermal Grenade a useful part of our PvP rotation (wishful thinking, say 4-5k on your focused target with nearby targets taking 2/3 of that damage as splash damage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aikion Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 Sadly, the only way I see it being viable is to almost copy that of the Infil Shadow tree, rather than differentiating the 2. I don't see how else it could be accomplished. Quite honestly, we are a from-stealth fighter only, nothing more. I know I'll get crap for this, but if they cut the damage on SF to 1/3 of what it currently is (66% damage reduction on the talent, that's correct) and increased Backblast's damage to the level's Shadow Strike/Maul are, we'd be able to escape the whole negativity of our opener from stealth being OP. Then, boost our survivability with AoE damage reduction, rework Shield Probe to make it useful, reduce the dodge proc on scamper to something reasonable to make it useful (15 secs is ridiculous), and maybe even boost the AoE damage we can dish out by making Thermal Grenade a useful part of our PvP rotation (wishful thinking, say 4-5k on your focused target with nearby targets taking 2/3 of that damage as splash damage). I added these to my Scrapper focused feedback thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randiesel Posted July 16, 2013 Author Share Posted July 16, 2013 (edited) I really wanted to make a new thread for this so that hopefully the PvP Scrapper community sees it as a whole, but there are just entirely too many PvP Scrapper threads going right now... Just wanted to take a moment and say to the PvP Scrappers with this whole Class Rep thing: Don't get your hopes up. The "job" of whoever is made the class rep is to provide 3 questions, and 3 questions only, to Bioware, which will then be presented to their combat team. The class rep is representing the class as a whole, and you the PvP Scrapper are the minority of the class. If the only representation of ours ends up being 1 of the 3 questions, even in the form of "What, if anything, is or will be done to address the viability of Scrapper Scoundrels in PvP, whether rated or non-rated warzones", then you *have* been represented. There is a good chance that a healer will be chosen by the Scoundrel community, and their choice is not getting paid for doing this "job". I'm not even sure how these 3 questions will be presented to BW, whether it will be in a new/locked thread for all to see publicly or if it is going to be a PM back to Eric and then the rep will say "hey, this is what I sent" kind of thing. Just asking to please be courteous to whoever gets chosen, regardless of their active role in the game, and feel that you are being represented. These are only questions that are being presented, and the questions are being presented for every other AC in the game. Don't keep high expectations, because there is the greater likelihood that not much of anything will come of it for PvP Scrapping, at least until maybe the next expansion. - Randiesel - Crackshot - TheChive - #howeveryouknowme Edited July 16, 2013 by randiesel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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