Theoretically are Jedi or Sith more powerful overall?

[AlexDougherty]

Well I am sure this will get me flamed but I am going to put this out there. The force itself is neither light nor dark. The Force is simply that, THE FORCE. Now before anybody slips a gear yes there are techniques like sith sorcery that are inherently dark, but that is simply a person who manipulates the energy of the universe into something dark.

 

I think that PEOPLE are the light and dark side of the force, and the choices they make brings themselves into light and dark. And the force merely reflects that. I mean take the dark side corruption. The more choices you make, the more the force will reflect it.

 

But take force lightning for example. Use it on a person, that is another person using it on a being which is inherently wrong and evil so dark. But take that same force lightning for example and use it on say a droid, or use it to short out a security station, is it still dark? No, now you are getting into the murky grey area that many hardcore people say doesn't exist. It's only light and dark. I disagree.

 

I say the force simply is, THE FORCE. How you manipulate it, MAKES it light or dark, but that is through the will of the person using it. And the force will show you what you are becoming.

 

I see were you are coming from with this, and you have reasoned it out quite nicely, which makes it a shame that you are wrong, sorry.

 

In The Empire Strikes Back, Yoda sends Luke into a place charged with the Darkside of the Force, the evil is actually attached to the place not to any person. There are several books and numerous graphic novels were this happens too, mostly the ones set in the old republic era, but it is mentioned several times in the post Return of the Jedi era too. It also happens in both Kotor and Kotor2, the foundry is charged with the Darkside, although given that the foundry is supposedly semiliving this may be moot, but it also happens in temples on Dxun moon, were you are given the option to try to purify areas of the Darkside.

 

In short there is a Darkside of the Force, it's not just the Force, part of the Force is death and corruption, and this death and corruption is the Darkside of the Force. However what we call the Lightside of the Force may actually be neutral, it has been suggested that there is the Force and an aspect of the Force called the Darkside (nothing about the Lightside at all).

Edited July 12, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[TalonVII]

I see were you are coming from with this, and you have reasoned it out quite nicely, which makes it a shame that you are wrong, sorry.

 

In The Empire Strikes Back, Yoda sends Luke into a place charged with the Darkside of the Force, the evil is actually attached to the place not to any person. There are several books and numerous graphic novels were this happens too, mostly the ones set in the old republic era, but it is mentioned several times in the post Return of the Jedi era too. It also happens in both Kotor and Kotor2, the foundry is charged with the Darkside, although given that the foundry is supposedly semiliving this may be moot, but it also happens in temples on Dxun moon, were you are given the option to try to purify areas of the Darkside.

 

In short there is a Darkside of the Force, it's not just the Force, part of the Force is death and corruption, and this death and corruption is the Darkside of the Force. However what we call the Lightside of the Force may actually be neutral, it has been suggested that there is the Force and an aspect of the Force called the Darkside (nothing about the Lightside at all).

 

Yet here's the thing, yoda never said what caused that nexus of darkside. most times to create a nexus such as that cave, something just happen. Usually a dark side user creates that nexus, like when palpatine died at endor, it created a darkside nexus.

 

Dark/light side nexus' are NOT natural occurrences in the force, so no infact I am not wrong.

[AlexDougherty]

Yet here's the thing, yoda never said what caused that nexus of darkside. most times to create a nexus such as that cave, something just happen. Usually a dark side user creates that nexus, like when palpatine died at endor, it created a darkside nexus.

 

Dark/light side nexus' are NOT natural occurrences in the force, so no infact I am not wrong.

 

True, the Darkside nexi (plural of nexus) are not natural, but that's the important factor, it's that they exist without someone powering them, them exist on their own terms. This means that they can corrupt animals and plants, tuning part of the ecosystem to the Darkside, and they can do so for thousands of years. One of Nomi Sunrider's masters was charged with reversing the effects of one of these nexi, which was corrupting all animals that drank from a lake.

 

The fact that these nexi exist without anybody powering or controling them, means that pockets of the Darkside exist independent of any darksider (although they are almost certainly created by darksiders, either accidently or deliberately). This means you can't say that the force is neither darkside or lightside, because there are pockets that are aligned one way or the other. I admit that the intention of the user is important, but someone using the lightside in an area corrupted by the Darkside is slowly going to feel that corruption sinking into them.

[EicyLightrider]

Yet here's the thing, yoda never said what caused that nexus of darkside. most times to create a nexus such as that cave, something just happen. Usually a dark side user creates that nexus, like when palpatine died at endor, it created a darkside nexus.

 

Dark/light side nexus' are NOT natural occurrences in the force, so no infact I am not wrong.

 

No I'm sorry but you are wrong. Lucas himself has stated that there is a Dark side and Light side to the force as sort of a yin and yang. You can't have one without the other. And when one side tips too much bad stuff happens. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Ones

 

"The overriding philosophy in Episode I—and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter—is the balance between good and evil."

 

-George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999

 

"The Force has two sides. It is not a malevolent or a benevolent thing. It has a bad side to it, involving hate and fear, and it has a good side, involving love, charity, fairness and hope."

 

-George Lucas, Times Magazine, 1980

 

Sorry to burst your bubble.

[frankiejo]

You might want to read further up in the thread I never said he was, someone else claimed she beat him - which is why I was pointing out there was supposed to be a team with Bastilla PLUS the explosion from Malak backstabbing him and firing on his ship.

Edit: It was supposed to be a reply to Falco's quote in your post, but I see that wasn't copied along with it.

 

I thought that may have been the case but I wasn't sure, my bad

[Beniboybling]

Both of you are right, from a certain point of view... note here that this is actually an in-universe debate. Talon seems to believe in the Unifying Force, to quote Bariss Offee and Wookieepedia.

 

"Jedi refer to the ‘light side’ and the ‘dark side’, but really, these are only words, and the Force is beyond words. It is not evil, just as it isn’t good—it's simply what it is."

 

The concept of the Unifying Force was that the Force is a single entity and has neither a light nor a dark side. The Unifying Force was viewed as a deity that neither had sides nor chose them, treating all beings equally.

 

I agree with this belief, however I feel it can be reconciled with the notion of the Living Force, that the Force is split into two parts - light and dark - and that the light is 'good' and the dark is 'evil'.

 

For one I reject that the Force is not inherently good or evil. And I agree with Talon that ultimately the Force is just the Force, it is not divided into two parts. However the Force manifests itself in either light or dark. When a Force user draws on the Force they either do so by achieving calm and inner peace, which causes the creation of light side energies, or they do so with their emotions, which causes the creation of dark side energies. Some powers are more deeply seated in the light and dark than others, such as Force Light and Sith Sorcery, but they fall into either category.

 

Yet despite this they are drawing on a singular, neutral energy - the Force. That said if too much light is generated or too much dark, the Force becomes unbalanced.

 

So in part Talon is right, however light and dark isn't decided by your moral compass, but how you draw on it. If you destroy a person using Force lightning, which requires aggressive emotions, you are using the dark side, and that doesn't change if your hitting a droid, as long as you are still using aggressive emotions to do so.

 

So its like this, we have the Force, and we have the Force user. The Force is a neutral entity, the Force user determines whether that energy is expressed as light or dark i.e. determines the alignment. The dark side in particular can exist long after a dark sider has passed, but its like radiation, the effects linger. Yet ultimately these are just effects, they are not self-sustaining and if not sustained will eventually fade.

 

In response to the OP, I'd say the Sith are more powerful. Mainly because they reach their potential faster, while Jedi much much slower, in fact some Jedi never reach their full potential. So the majority of the Sith are going to be at full power, while the Jedi are not. That said in the end neither the light or the dark are stronger than the other. Which reflects the fact they stem from the same, neutral entity.

[EicyLightrider]

Both of you are right, from a certain point of view... note here that this is actually an in-universe debate. Talon seems to believe in the Unifying Force, to quote Bariss Offee and Wookieepedia.

 

"Jedi refer to the ‘light side’ and the ‘dark side’, but really, these are only words, and the Force is beyond words. It is not evil, just as it isn’t good—it's simply what it is."

 

The concept of the Unifying Force was that the Force is a single entity and has neither a light nor a dark side. The Unifying Force was viewed as a deity that neither had sides nor chose them, treating all beings equally.

 

I agree with this belief, however I feel it can be reconciled with the notion of the Living Force, that the Force is split into two parts - light and dark - and that the light is 'good' and the dark is 'evil'.

 

For one I reject that the Force is not inherently good or evil. And I agree with Talon that ultimately the Force is just the Force, it is not divided into two parts. However the Force manifests itself in either light or dark. When a Force user draws on the Force they either do so by achieving calm and inner peace, which causes the creation of light side energies, or they do so with their emotions, which causes the creation of dark side energies. Some powers are more deeply seated in the light and dark than others, such as Force Light and Sith Sorcery, but they fall into either category.

 

Yet despite this they are drawing on a singular, neutral energy - the Force. That said if too much light is generated or too much dark, the Force becomes unbalanced.

 

So in part Talon is right, however light and dark isn't decided by your moral compass, but how you draw on it. If you destroy a person using Force lightning, which requires aggressive emotions, you are using the dark side, and that doesn't change if your hitting a droid, as long as you are still using aggressive emotions to do so.

 

So its like this, we have the Force, and we have the Force user. The Force is a neutral entity, the Force user determines whether that energy is expressed as light or dark i.e. determines the alignment. The dark side in particular can exist long after a dark sider has passed, but its like radiation, the effects linger. Yet ultimately these are just effects, they are not self-sustaining and if not sustained will eventually fade.

 

In response to the OP, I'd say the Sith are more powerful. Mainly because they reach their potential faster, while Jedi much much slower, in fact some Jedi never reach their full potential. So the majority of the Sith are going to be at full power, while the Jedi are not. That said in the end neither the light or the dark are stronger than the other. Which reflects the fact they stem from the same, neutral entity.

 

Um no those are theories from fictional characters in the the Star Wars universe. The fact has already been stated by the actual person who created the world. And it's nice that you think that the force is not divided into two parts but that's just wrong as has already been quoted by George.

 

There are more quotes I can pull up if you want me to. So until the new person at Disney who is in charge of lore wants to retcon the Force it's remains a 2 sided coin of light and dark.

Edited July 12, 2013 by EicyLightrider

[TalonVII]

Um no those are theories from fictional characters in the the Star Wars universe. The fact has already been stated by the actual person who created the world. And it's nice that you think that the force is not divided into two parts but that's just wrong as has already been quoted by George.

 

There are more quotes I can pull up if you want me to. So until the new person at Disney who is in charge of lore wants to retcon the Force it's remains a 2 sided coin of light and dark.

 

Sorry George may have started with what was quoted, but when Obi-wan explains it to luke for the first time, does he say "it's a power source that's light and dark and it binds the universe'? No. It's an energy. Are you really going to sit there and tell me energy is good or evil?

[Beniboybling]

Um no those are theories from fictional characters in the the Star Wars universe. The fact has already been stated by the actual person who created the world. And it's nice that you think that the force is not divided into two parts but that's just wrong as has already been quoted by George.

 

There are more quotes I can pull up if you want me to. So until the new person at Disney who is in charge of lore wants to retcon the Force it's remains a 2 sided coin of light and dark.

None of your quotes dispute what I am saying, I'm not disputing that the Force does not manifest itself in either light or dark, it still has two sides, but the key word being manifest. And you don't need to provide any further quotes, I am aware of all of them. Edited July 12, 2013 by Beniboybling

[EicyLightrider]

Sorry George may have started with what was quoted, but when Obi-wan explains it to luke for the first time, does he say "it's a power source that's light and dark and it binds the universe'? No. It's an energy. Are you really going to sit there and tell me energy is good or evil?

 

Really? Wow.

[EicyLightrider]

Sorry George may have started with what was quoted, but when Obi-wan explains it to luke for the first time, does he say "it's a power source that's light and dark and it binds the universe'? No. It's an energy. Are you really going to sit there and tell me energy is good or evil?

 

I wasn't aware Obi-Wan Kenobi was the one who created Star Wars. Excuse me for my ignorance.

[Beniboybling]

Really? Wow.

I wasn't aware Obi-Wan Kenobi was the one who created Star Wars. Excuse me for my ignorance.

If all you can provide in the way of argument is intepretable/irrelevant statements from George Lucas and sarcastic commentary then I suggest you withdraw from the debate.

[Aarcher]

He was never both, he was a Jedi who went Sith and then was redeemed, exactly the same thing Anakin did.

 

Wrong. Revan was able to tap into both the Light and the Dark side at the same time. The first force users used Ashla and Bogan (Light and Dark) energy inside themselves to do great astounding feats with the force. There is a book out that goes over this stuff. A character in it uses her abilities and is you can tell obviously has great power at her disposal does not stand outside of the pack. It seems all of them could do certain feats. Think of the Light/Dark sides as a Meter that goes left as you use lightside abilities then back to the middle when you're done, and the same happens when you use the darkside. Though these Tython Rangers could use both powers at the same time.. There is not always a need to. I'll give a for instance. in the Book Revan he remembers who he used to be (Darth Revan) and all the ability he gave up when going back to the Light Side. He knew after his attack on the Emperor he'd never get out alive and prepared for it I think. He used both Light and dark energy to attack the emperor because it was a situation that he knew even if he brought ALL his powers to bare he wouldn't live. In the book about early Tython showed us a result of what happened to a Force User of their Rangers used Dark too much or Light too much it brought the metaphorical meter I was using above out of balance. When they were out of balance they would usually have to stay in meditation until they'd fixed the issue.

 

So Revan in the end did achieve something. While Luke is without a doubt the most powerful force user to walk their galaxy. He was also in a different stage and lifecycle than previous generations. The New Jedi Order did not have the Ones keeping the force in balance anymore so by the time Luke became the Grand Master there was no turning back to ever be like previous generations of Force Users. Quick Pro Quo The Ones were great (Immortal? almost.) Force Users who kept the Force in balance. Anakin Skywalker was originally supposed to replace the guardian of The Ones who was dying. When he got there it was during the clone wars. And the Dark One decided he wanted to have the same power of the guardian killed the Light One his sister. Anakin then had to kill the Dark one to prevent darkness from being released to the galaxy. Therefore fulfilling his job as the guardian. I only wish I could've seen what Anakin Skywalker would've achieved had he never lost his arms and legs, thereby reducing his midiclorian count by 1/2 lol and still no jedi could challenge him physically until Luke came along. Anakin was supposed to become the Guardian of the Force by keeping it in balance! Think about it guys. He would've dwarfed any known User and brought him to shreds if needed, had he been able to stay out of the suit. This all happened due to the Ones being dead. There by solidifying The Jedi and Sith to stay at war forever because the new Jedi order and sith were the new guardians.. Alas, youngling that's another story and theoretical hypothesis to come in the future.

 

My answer for the OP is the same as a few others. Luke Skywalker most powerful (Light) Darth Caedas didn't rise to his full power because he died early. But Jacen Solo was really Luke's only Challenge besides Abeloth and she was immortal. (Dark) Different side of the Same coin as one above put it. Light Side would also suggest more staying power. The Dark side would suggest easier bursts of force energy. ultimately burning out that particular body. To give an easy example Darth Sidious was jacked up because of premature body burn out because of all the Dark Side Lightning that went through his body fighting Mace Windu.

[Aarcher]

None of your quotes dispute what I am saying, I'm not disputing that the Force does not manifest itself in either light or dark, it still has two sides, but the key word being manifest. And you don't need to provide any further quotes, I am aware of all of them.

 

When you think of the Force you think of the Living Force and Unifying Force. You think of Light and Dark. This Galaxy has a lot of Light/Dark Force Nexuses. To us the energy isn't good or bad but to a Jedi to stand in a Dark Nexus he feels sick. So you might say to a Jedi a dark nexus IS bad.

[Aarcher]

If all you can provide in the way of argument is intepretable/irrelevant statements from George Lucas and sarcastic commentary then I suggest you withdraw from the debate.

 

People who use that argument should leave this post alone. You're playing a game that if we go by what George Lucas was doing at the time of all these quotes, wouldn't be here. Not to meantion the simple fact that by allowing the Expanded Universe to sustain Star Wars for the last 20 years alone and make him billions of $$$$ he's saying that what the writers write is true.

 

When he disagrees he makes it known like when the writers were going to kill Han Solo and he spoke up and said that they could never kill off a original char without his direct approval. So, since Chewie was becoming a glorified baby sitter, and they needed room to build the family dynamic with the Solo family he died instead with approval from the boss.

Also you can say Obi Wan said this, or that, but can't make that an end all because, Obi Wan also said that the nature of belief was from a point of view. that being said, from a point of view all these belief systems in the force are true.

[Aarcher]

True, the Darkside nexi (plural of nexus) are not natural, but that's the important factor, it's that they exist without someone powering them, them exist on their own terms. This means that they can corrupt animals and plants, tuning part of the ecosystem to the Darkside, and they can do so for thousands of years. One of Nomi Sunrider's masters was charged with reversing the effects of one of these nexi, which was corrupting all animals that drank from a lake.

 

The fact that these nexi exist without anybody powering or controling them, means that pockets of the Darkside exist independent of any darksider (although they are almost certainly created by darksiders, either accidently or deliberately). This means you can't say that the force is neither darkside or lightside, because there are pockets that are aligned one way or the other. I admit that the intention of the user is important, but someone using the lightside in an area corrupted by the Darkside is slowly going to feel that corruption sinking into them.

 

Guys you're both right in a sense... 1/2 are talking about the Living force and the other 1/2 are talking Unifying Force. All they are, are different views and ways to approach the Force. Reason of why things everyone has said can be put down to Living or Unifying force by anything anyone has said on this thread. The Someone before me gave you the actual quotes about both of them so I won't.

But and easy and over simplified way to explain is Living Force is day to day use. Most likely effect them acutely. Unifying Force isn't like that.

 

I think of Unifying force and Living Force as you guys and myself are debating Light/Dark, it's the different sides of the same coin. they are both the right. But maybe not right for a particular answer. First, if I would've thought this discussion would develop into what it has I would like the OP said, "What stronger the Light or Dark side of the Living Force?" that would've stopped the 2nd debate from happening maybe.

[AlexDougherty]

Guys you're both right in a sense... 1/2 are talking about the Living force and the other 1/2 are talking Unifying Force. All they are, are different views and ways to approach the Force. Reason of why things everyone has said can be put down to Living or Unifying force by anything anyone has said on this thread. The Someone before me gave you the actual quotes about both of them so I won't.

But and easy and over simplified way to explain is Living Force is day to day use. Most likely effect them acutely. Unifying Force isn't like that.

 

I think of Unifying force and Living Force as you guys and myself are debating Light/Dark, it's the different sides of the same coin. they are both the right. But maybe not right for a particular answer. First, if I would've thought this discussion would develop into what it has I would like the OP said, "What stronger the Light or Dark side of the Living Force?" that would've stopped the 2nd debate from happening maybe.

 

Ok, thanks, so Talon and I are arguing about philosophical viewpoints about the force, my god I feel Nerdy.

 

I guess we are just going to have accept that we are both right, for a certain value of right (paraphrasing Terry Pratchett, useful universal quote for arguements)

 

Ok Talon, sorry for causing an arguement over nothing.