Dirty Fighting Vs Scrapper

[Anosa]

What do you prefer for PVP and what for PVE??

[Iron-Hawk]

Almost no one uses DF. Ive tried it. The biggest issue for me is that most of the ranged abilities are 10m. If Im going to be that close I might as well use scrapper wich is a little better DPS. I wish scoundrels shared sabotauge w slingers instead of DF. That would give us another viable ranged option.

[hallucigenocide]

it's really 2 completely different styles so not really that easy to compare.. the only thing they got in common is stealth

however i prefer scrapper as i PvP alot and as you know burst is king when it comes to that.. DF is pretty fun also because of all that fluff damage can boost your ego pretty good when you're at the top of the damage charts.. what little burst you got in DF often takes too long to build up... as for PvE i dunno that's not really my cup of tea.

Edited July 26, 2013 by hallucigenocide

[dipstik]

DF is getting bigger numbers in the dps leaderboards (no scrappers there).

scrappers have more front loaded burst, whereas DF has burst after 3 GCDs

i find scrapper to be more fun in pve and pvp, but i think most would tell you that DF is the way to go for pve.

i hear scrappers are good in pvp pre 55, but DF is better for RWZ

[oaceen]

DF is getting bigger numbers in the dps leaderboards (no scrappers there).

scrappers have more front loaded burst, whereas DF has burst after 3 GCDs

i find scrapper to be more fun in pve and pvp, but i think most would tell you that DF is the way to go for pve.

i hear scrappers are good in pvp pre 55, but DF is better for RWZ

 

not that it makes a huge difference, but most (if not all) of those parses spec scrapper first, load flechette round, then switch to dirty fighting to start the parse so they have the alacrity / armor pen buffs and the extra dot

 

also scrapper gets a lot more in the way of extra movement with the 2 points available for sneaky, reduced cost for scamper, sneak usable out of combat, and access to holdout defense too (the only movement tool really available to dirty fighting except for the one possible point in sneaky)

i just started doing some ops as dirty fighting, and movement phases are a much bigger problem in DF for me than it is for scrapper. it probably won't be as big of a problem with more experience, but i'd say that standing in one spot (e.g. dummy parses), i like dirty fighting a bit more, but it's the opposite for movement-heavy fights.

 

i guess my point is, i could see how dirty fighting would look a lot better on a dummy, but i'm not sure if it's an absolute litmus test for being overall better in operations

[Aikion]

not that it makes a huge difference, but most (if not all) of those parses spec scrapper first, load flechette round, then switch to dirty fighting to start the parse so they have the alacrity / armor pen buffs and the extra dot

 

also scrapper gets a lot more in the way of extra movement with the 2 points available for sneaky, reduced cost for scamper, sneak usable out of combat, and access to holdout defense too (the only movement tool really available to dirty fighting except for the one possible point in sneaky)

i just started doing some ops as dirty fighting, and movement phases are a much bigger problem in DF for me than it is for scrapper. it probably won't be as big of a problem with more experience, but i'd say that standing in one spot (e.g. dummy parses), i like dirty fighting a bit more, but it's the opposite for movement-heavy fights.

 

i guess my point is, i could see how dirty fighting would look a lot better on a dummy, but i'm not sure if it's an absolute litmus test for being overall better in operations

 

Firstly, let me state that I in no way consider myself the best at Scoundrel DPS. I think I'm fairly mediocre, and will probably not see any NiM content for a while. As my Ops group has pretty much given up on it due lack of geared subs and our regulars being unavailable every week. I get to Ops one night a week, and miss out on TfB night, so my relics/gear are far from optimal.

I actually think Dirty Fighting (DF) does better with movement. As you can apply/refresh your DoTs on the way to a target. I mainly abuse the speedboost from Holdout Defense as a way to keep up with moving targets (or avoiding Sunder's Fixate). The DPS output of DF is also a fairly close match with our similarly geared Dirty Fighting Gunslingers, and blows most of our DPS subs out of the water. Here's my torparse of HM S&V last week. And the incomplete group torparse.

 

I was spec'd Scrapper for the first two bosses, and switched to DF after Titan 6. This was mainly due to the poor performance of Scrapper vs DF on the tasks that I'm usually assigned. On Dash'roode I kept getting knocked back while trying to Back Blast adds, and Titan 6 I saw a big drop-off in DPS overall vs DF, especially during launch phases (previous week's parse for comparison).

 

My best fight overall was the Cartel Warlords with 2752 DPS. None of my Dread Master Styrak attempts were very good this week. Last week I was able to pull 2543 DPS on that fight, even with all the target swapping. And, I didn't even know about the Fletchette Round bug. (Which I will have to abuse before they fix it)

 

This week we kept having issues not related to dps. Like:

 

1. A healer getting nightmared right before the transition to the second Kell Dragon phase.
   
2. The tank deciding to stealth past the add group and pulling the boss directly and getting instant-deathed.
   
3. Another attempt with the same tank getting knocked back into instant-death range of the boss in Phase 1.
   

 

Honestly I really hated DF before I forced myself to learn how to play it. And, playing my DF Gunslinger helped drill some of the fundamentals into my brain. But, what really drove my decision to give up Scrapper in PvE, the final nail in coffin, was DF's ability to kill stuff that was aggro'd on me.

 

It was an epiphany of sorts, and is what sealed the deal for DF. I wasn't reliant on Back Blast, and it's silly positional requirement, ANYMORE! I was finally free to kill what I wanted, when I wanted.... errr... with only 2-3 extra GCDs as a restriction.

 

Sure, you still use Back Blast as a filler for DF, but it's nowhere near as rage-inducing when you can't use it. And, I highly recommend this spec to anyone who wants kill stuff in group settings. Though, I still prefer Scrapper for solo play. And Blue Octagon achievement grinding via orb-suicide ganking when my guild isn't on to help me farm. Sure they might kill me, but if I'm going down, they are too!

Edited July 30, 2013 by Aikion

[oaceen]

that's roughly the same as my assessment of dirty fighting, actually.

 

the rotation is a lot smoother, refreshing dots while running in is a lot easier (but only if they need to be refreshed), and shoot first is more of an afterthought. whereas with scrapper, i feel it's necessary to start with it and necessary to use in the middle of a fight, for dirty fighting, i stand with the rest of the group at the start and rarely find a good opportunity to use it except when i'm maybe trying to burst something down.

 

it just seems that most of the basic rotation seems to be just enough to fill all the GCDs and not expend too much energy before pugnacity / cool head are back up again. for some reason 1m30s is far and away better than just 2m.

backblast isn't just a filler, but it's a seldom-needed one.

 

 

for scrapper, there's a lot of downtime if flying fists doesn't proc and not any good fillers since backblast is used so heavily in the normal rotation.

 

 

and i agree with you about the positional requirement being a huge detriment to scrapper in PVE. i've often felt that my dps as a scrapper is very much correlated to how good or bad my tank is, not just me as a player.

Edited July 30, 2013 by oaceen

[MiralukaJedi]

Almost no one uses DF. Ive tried it. The biggest issue for me is that most of the ranged abilities are 10m. If Im going to be that close I might as well use scrapper wich is a little better DPS. I wish scoundrels shared sabotauge w slingers instead of DF. That would give us another viable ranged option.

 

HA! I'm guessing this is a troll or delusional... In PVP Concealment/Scrapper right now is in a rough spot and not wanted on most teams (Given, DPS Operatives/Scoundrels in general are, but more-so concealment/scrapper) and in PVE Concealment/Scrapper is much less common and is in fact a little LESS DPS.

 

Yes, Lethality/Dirty Fighting is a mostly melee class, but the claim that 'might as well use scrapper which is a little better DPS' is wrong.

 

I'll be honest. I find concealment/scrapper more fun. But I run Lethality/Dirty Fighting because it is better. All the top parses (on both dummies and raiding bosses) are lethality/dirty fighting.

 

not that it makes a huge difference, but most (if not all) of those parses spec scrapper first, load flechette round, then switch to dirty fighting to start the parse so they have the alacrity / armor pen buffs and the extra dot

 

also scrapper gets a lot more in the way of extra movement with the 2 points available for sneaky, reduced cost for scamper, sneak usable out of combat, and access to holdout defense too (the only movement tool really available to dirty fighting except for the one possible point in sneaky)

i just started doing some ops as dirty fighting, and movement phases are a much bigger problem in DF for me than it is for scrapper. it probably won't be as big of a problem with more experience, but i'd say that standing in one spot (e.g. dummy parses), i like dirty fighting a bit more, but it's the opposite for movement-heavy fights.

 

i guess my point is, i could see how dirty fighting would look a lot better on a dummy, but i'm not sure if it's an absolute litmus test for being overall better in operations

 

Lethality/Dirty Fighting still wins even without the acid blade. It's just a closer match-up.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6601253&postcount=64

 

As for movement phases I've found them easier on DF. Yes, Concealment can move faster and has better increases, but all of its moves except its DoT are melee based. So while you can move faster when you aren't at 4m you've lost your DPS. Lethality can reapply its dots if needed and cull has 10m. So, yes. Concealment moves faster and easier, but Lethality (from my experience) tends to be easier for moving fights.

 

Besides, lethality will be speaking into hit-and-run so the only thing it really loses is the sneak boost and the cheaper roll. The cheaper roll is still a detriment in energy cost and not something you want to use in combat and the sneak boost usually isn't enough. If the 25% increase from hit and run won't let you keep up with the boss, chances are the sneak speed boost won't so having ranged attacks will help more.

 

Again, the movement thing is just my personal experience. The DPS numbers, not so much.

[Gren-Aluren]

A lot of people are highly under rating Dirty Fighting for PvP. It's even better in 1v1 scenarios against certain classes (Ie. Shadows, Bubble Stun Sages). There is a wide variety of different ways to engage enemies in this spec which is extremely useful to a stealth class that relies on picking battles on his own terms. For example you can open from a distance by using your ranged abilities then come in close for the burst damage either through stealth or closing the gap. You can start 1v1s with Shoot First and a Flash Grenade combo to buy you time to set up your DoTs and a Sabo charge on your opponent before you Blaster Whip (or Pugnacity) and Wounding Shots or you can open up from cover on a melee class and wear them down before they reach you. Even most 1v2 situations are easier to deal with. The spec is versatile.

 

The burst in DT is better then Scrapper and is harder to prepare against. If you take the time to DoT up priority targets before you engage you are able to pick and choose who you can burst down with very little setup time and you don't have to waste time getting back in stealth. A Scrapper spends most his time outside of battle whilst a DT can stay in battle moving between close to medium ranges using stealth and cover as aids. You should also use Shoot First whenever you can for the Upper Hand.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Gren-Aluren