Rage VS Vengeance for PvE

[ssfish]

you don't want the jugg 4 set you want mara 2 and jugg 2 set

 

I don't think this is accurate. In my best Rage parse to date (in which I used the 2/2 set bonuses), I would have seen a 3 DPS gain by using the 4 piece. Granted, 3 DPS isn't much, but when you start to look at a number of fights where Ravage has to be timed within mechanics (not difficult for a Vengeance convert), this gain would only increase.

 

Now, I'm making an assumption here, but I did the same check on Rah'jid's dummy parse. Based on the damage numbers, I assumed he had the 2/2 set for that parse. If that is the case ,he would have gained 9 DPS switching to the 4 piece.

 

Edit: If you want to see the absolute rock-bottom of Vengeance, look at the middle fight in my parse. 3 minutes of nothing but RNG laughing at me. Not only did I only get 1 Rampage proc in three minutes, but Ravage only crit at a 9.5% rate and I whiffed an Impale with 99.91% Accuracy. I'm thinking starting to like Rage more and more - at least with Rage, a bad parse is 100% my own fault.

Edited July 16, 2013 by ssfish

[Loufu]

I don't think this is accurate. In my best Rage parse to date (in which I used the 2/2 set bonuses), I would have seen a 3 DPS gain by using the 4 piece. Granted, 3 DPS isn't much, but when you start to look at a number of fights where Ravage has to be timed within mechanics (not difficult for a Vengeance convert), this gain would only increase.

 

Now, I'm making an assumption here, but I did the same check on Rah'jid's dummy parse. Based on the damage numbers, I assumed he had the 2/2 set for that parse. If that is the case ,he would have gained 9 DPS switching to the 4 piece.

 

Edit: If you want to see the absolute rock-bottom of Vengeance, look at the middle fight in my parse. 3 minutes of nothing but RNG laughing at me. Not only did I only get 1 Rampage proc in three minutes, but Ravage only crit at a 9.5% rate and I whiffed an Impale with 99.91% Accuracy. I'm thinking starting to like Rage more and more - at least with Rage, a bad parse is 100% my own fault.

4 set bonus is definitely better for Rage. Not to mention there are some times it would be better to neglect Ravage at all, for earlier Smash CD (AoE packs, 2 targets stacking together). I think most Juggs just went to the most obvious choice for DPS spec (Vengeance) at the start of xpac, at least that's what I did.

 

I also agree with how RNG can screw up Vengeance's potential. Rampage proc is too good, yet too low chance for only 2 moves that have CD. Some of the solutions I can think of is to increase the proc chance to 50% or make Force Scream able to proc it as well.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Loufu

[Jurugu]

If you look at parses since 2.0, Vengeance/Vigilance cover the board, because when you can stand still as ravage, and get lucky with your ravages, you will do a bunch of damage.

 

My personal guess for the reason why Vengeance parses are ahead on leaderboards - especially on dummy parses like here - is the simple fact that compared to Rage it has a much higher variance.

 

Thinking about it for a bit it seems rather obvious that if you have two specs with the same expected value for DPS, but one has higher variance it will dominate any leaderboards, since those ony care for the times it spikes high, and higher variance does mean it can spike higher. And noone talks about the times it bottoms out.

 

It should also be evident that Vengeance does have the higher variance. For one there is the very essential ravager proc. Get a good string, and your DPS will soar. Not only that, but the usual source of variance - Crit percentage - even has a diminished impact on the rage spec, since its major contributor has a 100% crit chance anyway.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Jurugu

[ssfish]

My personal guess for the reason why Vengeance parses are ahead on leaderboards - especially on dummy parses like here - is the simple fact that compared to Rage it has a much higher variance.

 

Thinking about it for a bit it seems rather obvious that if you have two specs with the same expected value for DPS, but one has higher variance it will dominate any leaderboards, since those ony care for the times it spikes high, and higher variance does mean it can spike higher. And noone talks about the times it bottoms out.

 

It should also be evident that Vengeance does have the higher variance. For one there is the very essential ravager proc. Get a good string, and your DPS will soar. Not only that, but the usual source of variance - Crit percentage - even has a diminished impact on the rage spec, since its major contributor has a 100% crit chance anyway.

 

I just pointed out the absolute worst Vengeance parse that I could imagine in my last post. Here it is.

 

Some highlights:

Ravage - Used once every 25 seconds : 1 Rampage proc in 3 minutes - 8% crit rate

Impale - Used once every 10.5 seconds - 1 miss

Scream - Used once every 10.5 seconds

Shatter - Used once every 14.3 seconds

 

This is essentially as bottomed out at Vengeance gets. Had I continued that parse out to at least 5 minutes and the same pattern held out, 2650. That's it. Rage parses (for me) typically vary between 2700 and 2850. Vengeance, up until this parse, usually runs between 2700 and 2950. More often than not, I am in the 2825-2900 range.

 

I have never seen, in any of my parses, such a perfect storm of bad luck. Here's the thing, though. If this parse had happened to me on say, Dread Guards, it wouldn't have been as dramatic of a failure, due to forced downtime in that fight, and windows where one wouldn't use Ravage anyways.

[TwistedTony]

If you have the Juggernaut 4 piece (8% to scream) then you don't use Ravage

 

its bad advice like this that gives ppl the perception that juggs aren't good dps. how can you NOT use ravage with its ten percent boost.inthe immortal tree? smh.

 

rage is better forfights with lots of adds, vengeance isbetter for single target. end of story.

[ssfish]

its bad advice like this that gives ppl the perception that juggs aren't good dps. how can you NOT use ravage with its ten percent boost.inthe immortal tree? smh.

 

rage is better forfights with lots of adds, vengeance isbetter for single target. end of story.

 

Most Rage specs do not take the Ravage talent. To obtain it, you would have to either drop 6% strength or 2% accuracy. Neither one is a fair trade, in my mind. Dropping the 6% strength talent would drop melee bonus damage by roughly 4%, which impacts Obliterate, V.Throw, V.Slash, two of which far out-damage Ravage in Rage spec. Dropping 2% accuracy means dropping a lot of surge to make up for it in gear, which means substantial losses to Smash damage.

 

As far as single target vs. multiple target, it's not as simple as that anymore. Look at a fight like Dash'roode. Yes, it has lots of adds, which allows for Rage to pull 3k + on that fight. But if you look at single target DPS,(ie: DPS strictly on Dash) well played Rage will outdo Vengeance.

 

There are a number of single target fights where Rage has the advantage right now.

Edited July 17, 2013 by ssfish

[Scooch]

Ssfish is right. Like I said previously I used to swap to Veng when 2.0 first came out on any ST fight. However my Rage parses for a good chunk of fights was roughly the same. So I stopped switching and just stay Rage.

 

You also have to take into account "effective" dps as well.(like Ssfish reference for Dash) Take Dread Guards for instance, any splash dmg on Ciphas and Kel'sara is useless. So if your strat has all 3 clumped together for the duration of the fight you'll see some specs performing significantly higher than others. However that difference is not effective dps so makes their higher numbers inflated and not accurate.

 

However despite that I find Rage more useful for DG since the adds in P3 become much more easily managed with my heavy AoE dmg.(while still maintaining dps on Kel'sara)

[Loufu]

Ssfish is right. Like I said previously I used to swap to Veng when 2.0 first came out on any ST fight. However my Rage parses for a good chunk of fights was roughly the same. So I stopped switching and just stay Rage.

 

You also have to take into account "effective" dps as well.(like Ssfish reference for Dash) Take Dread Guards for instance, any splash dmg on Ciphas and Kel'sara is useless. So if your strat has all 3 clumped together for the duration of the fight you'll see some specs performing significantly higher than others. However that difference is not effective dps so makes their higher numbers inflated and not accurate.

 

However despite that I find Rage more useful for DG since the adds in P3 become much more easily managed with my heavy AoE dmg.(while still maintaining dps on Kel'sara)

I would have to disagree on this. NiM DG is probably one of the few fights that I respec to Vengeance (One of the other probably Operator IX, damn Data Cores not hit by Smash). With the tight enrage, tanks usually help DPS Heirad and the other two bosses are possibly in range of Smash. The damage done to the other two bosses increase the damage taken to the raid, potentially wiping the raid. Not to mention 15% DR Enraged Defense for Lightning Fields helps the healers a lot.

[ssfish]

I would have to disagree on this. NiM DG is probably one of the few fights that I respec to Vengeance (One of the other probably Operator IX, damn Data Cores not hit by Smash). With the tight enrage, tanks usually help DPS Heirad and the other two bosses are possibly in range of Smash. The damage done to the other two bosses increase the damage taken to the raid, potentially wiping the raid. Not to mention 15% DR Enraged Defense for Lightning Fields helps the healers a lot.

 

Don't forget Unstoppable. Scream/V.Throw then leap back at under 4 seconds on the channel.

 

As for the adds in phase 3, I find that I do better just burning the Affliction mob and AoE taunting the others for death by DFA/Orbital.

 

I would like to run Rage for this fight because we have been running 3 melee groups for the most part and Rage offers more flexibility for kiting, but I just can't beat the DPS check on Heirad with Rage.

Edited July 18, 2013 by ssfish

[Scooch]

I would have to disagree on this. NiM DG is probably one of the few fights that I respec to Vengeance (One of the other probably Operator IX, damn Data Cores not hit by Smash). With the tight enrage, tanks usually help DPS Heirad and the other two bosses are possibly in range of Smash. The damage done to the other two bosses increase the damage taken to the raid, potentially wiping the raid. Not to mention 15% DR Enraged Defense for Lightning Fields helps the healers a lot.

 

I don't know where your tanks do tank Ciphas and Kel'sara, but my smash never hits either during P1 and P2. I stand at max melee in front of heirad, the tanks stand slightly back and to the sides. During P2 both tanks are usually ~10m apart and again are out of range. The one class we've had a problem with splash dmg is actually a Lightning Sorc when he uses Chain Lightning(especially during P1).

 

As far as Data Cores for Op 9, there's a sweet spot you can stand and never miss a core. At least I don't. I used to have the problem because the design of the room is dumb. The core is not actually sitting on the floor and smash has about ZERO range for height(another of my gripes. There should be at least 1m for height variance since we can't control height). But I stand to the side of the core next to the "foot" of it and I've rarely if ever(like maybe 5% at most) miss the core with Smash.

[Loufu]

Don't forget Unstoppable. Scream/V.Throw then leap back at under 4 seconds on the channel.

As far as Data Cores for Op 9, there's a sweet spot you can stand and never miss a core. At least I don't. I used to have the problem because the design of the room is dumb. The core is not actually sitting on the floor and smash has about ZERO range for height(another of my gripes. There should be at least 1m for height variance since we can't control height). But I stand to the side of the core next to the "foot" of it and I've rarely if ever(like maybe 5% at most) miss the core with Smash.

Always something new to learn, thanks!

[lazerxxx]

Is there a decent PVE smasher guide out there? Cuz i'm getting interested^^

[Scooch]

Is there a decent PVE smasher guide out there? Cuz i'm getting interested^^

 

Earlier in the thread, but a good amount of info on rotation and priorities. Stats are ACC to 100/110%, zero crit, all power, surge. Augs are Might.

 

You get ACC 99.1% with 1 ACC aug which helps out cuz otherwise you only get to 99.5% and sometimes you will miss/resist ~2% for a boss fight.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Scooch

[ssfish]

I'm still not sold on the zero crit gearing for Rage.... Gonna do some tests here soon to compare, but non-scientific observations have been leaning towards a modest amount thus far.

[Scooch]

Always something new to learn, thanks!

 

Anytime. I'm always looking for info and someone to "Rage" about jugg dps with. In fact you're the one I'm always comparing my parses with Loufu. (since you're one of the only other Rage juggs doing competitive dps on Torparse)

[Scooch]

I'm still not sold on the zero crit gearing for Rage.... Gonna do some tests here soon to compare, but non-scientific observations have been leaning towards a modest amount thus far.

 

Like I said I've only run with ~150, and my dps did NOT get an increase. There's too much RNG involved with the crit. Pre 2.0 I used to run with 30% force crit(it came to ~2 pieces of crit gear) and here to hit 30% you need a good 5-6 crit pieces. Which kills your power by a lot more than the RNG gives you.

 

But again I haven't run with more cuz losing ~ 250 power for crit which you still aren't guaranteed a significant boost to dps because of RNG. When I get more crit gear(not actively looking mind you) I'll test with higher crit amounts. But atm I saw no positive variance in dps with 150 crit rating. With how much surge you get(I'm at 86% and only 72's except for my wrist) I'd love for higher crit%.

 

EDIT - my dummy parses on torparse were all with full power. I've not once beaten those running with the 150 crit rating.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Scooch

[Loufu]

I'm still not sold on the zero crit gearing for Rage.... Gonna do some tests here soon to compare, but non-scientific observations have been leaning towards a modest amount thus far.

I'm not big into math stuffs, but like Rah'jid, I also run full power.

Anytime. I'm always looking for info and someone to "Rage" about jugg dps with. In fact you're the one I'm always comparing my parses with Loufu. (since you're one of the only other Rage juggs doing competitive dps on Torparse)

Exactly what I thought. Most Juggs/Guards run Veng/Vig so can't really compare the two. I have been playing on my Mara lately though, and with Torparse closing just don't feel like uploading the logs.

[mlambros]

I'm not big into math stuffs, but like Rah'jid, I also run full power.

 

Exactly what I thought. Most Juggs/Guards run Veng/Vig so can't really compare the two. I have been playing on my Mara lately though, and with Torparse closing just don't feel like uploading the logs.

 

I think there is hope for the continuation of Torparse:

http://torparse.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/update-to-torparse-status.html?m=1

[ssfish]

I get the full-power argument. I used it in Vengeance for quite some time. I just happened to have changed my stance lately, and I find myself getting better results in both specs with some crit in my gear. This is hard to evaluate, though, because there are a large number of different variables between the fights than just my gear, so I can't just line the data up side by side and make straight comparisons.

[kennethdale]

Holy crap there is a lot of really awesome info in here now. I posted this thread because I was asked to switch from tank to dps for an alt group and never expected such a great discussion to grow out of a little question. Thanks everyone who contributed.

[TwistedTony]

Most Rage specs do not take the Ravage talent. To obtain it, you would have to either drop 6% strength or 2% accuracy. Neither one is a fair trade, in my mind. Dropping the 6% strength talent would drop melee bonus damage by roughly 4%, which impacts Obliterate, V.Throw, V.Slash, two of which far out-damage Ravage in Rage spec. Dropping 2% accuracy means dropping a lot of surge to make up for it in gear, which means substantial losses to Smash damage.

 

As far as single target vs. multiple target, it's not as simple as that anymore. Look at a fight like Dash'roode. Yes, it has lots of adds, which allows for Rage to pull 3k + on that fight. But if you look at single target DPS,(ie: DPS strictly on Dash) well played Rage will outdo Vengeance.

 

There are a number of single target fights where Rage has the advantage right now.

 

....Im gonna have to test this myself today.

[mlambros]

Here is my parse from our kill of With. Horror on NiM TFB last night:

http://www.torparse.com/a/356135/24/0/Damage+Dealt

It is a lot better than what I would get on Vengeance. There I struggled to get over 2000, however, on some of the deaths on this fight I was able to get over 2500.

Still need some work though. My biggest issue is keeping track in my head if I've popped my 3 Shockwave stacks from Enrage or Crush plus the auto-crit from Obliterate before I hit Smash. So I am constantly looking down at my bar...

Don't know if its just going to take me some time or if anyone has any advice for that...

Edited July 28, 2013 by mlambros

[Jurugu]

As far as single target vs. multiple target, it's not as simple as that anymore. Look at a fight like Dash'roode. Yes, it has lots of adds, which allows for Rage to pull 3k + on that fight. But if you look at single target DPS,(ie: DPS strictly on Dash) well played Rage will outdo Vengeance.

 

There are a number of single target fights where Rage has the advantage right now.

 

Ssfish is right. Like I said previously I used to swap to Veng when 2.0 first came out on any ST fight. However my Rage parses for a good chunk of fights was roughly the same. So I stopped switching and just stay Rage.

 

So would the two of you say that even single target Rage and Vengeance are about equal?

[metaIsaber]

So would the two of you say that even single target Rage and Vengeance are about equal?

 

I was vengeance and have switched to rage. The biggest problem with Veng is that you live or die off rampage. If you can't get it, veng falls flat on it's face. Rage is much more controlled dps single target wise and way better with groups.

 

I would like to see the rampage proc get revisited. I'd like to either see the lockout completely removed or allow the crit chance be included in the 30% chance via the tree skill. Most have 20% crit change so that would move your proc chance up to 50% with the lockout.

 

Going a full global and a half cooldown without procing rampage is pure garbage imo.

Edited July 29, 2013 by metaIsaber

[Scooch]

I would say they are similar dps, however Veng does have the higher potential ST dps. It has this due to Rampage procs, if you get good RNG for it Veng can do about 100dps higher ST.

 

For example - My highest Ship dummy parse for 5 min run is 2866dps. My usual is around 2800 dps as Rage.

 

The best Veng ship dummy parses are up to about 2950dps with good RNG on Rampage procs. The average Veng parses are around 2850dps. (this is all taken from current Torparse dummy logs and just visual comparisons from the top dps'ers)

 

Now that's on a ship dummy and not actual comparisons for boss fights. Boss fights all depend on your guilds strat(there's a lot of variations in strats I've seen) and the boss mechanics themselves.

 

As Metal said, Veng is more RNG based on it's highest potential, whereas Rage is 100% controlled by you. There's no random proc in Rage. If you have low dps as Rage, it's because you made mistakes somewhere(whether it's gear, priority rotation, etc). If you have low dps as Veng you can have made similar mistakes as a Rage jugg, however you also have the procs from Rampage(or lack there of) causing some lower dps. Which you can't control Rampage short of using Shatter/Impale whenever possible when the ICD is off cd.

 

I can go into more comparisons if requested, but I think the point has gotten across.

 

ps- Sorry I don't post as often as some others. I usually do most my internet trolling through my phone. I use a key fob for my security key and I never carry it with me(don't want to lose it) so I can't reply ever unless I'm at home.