If you are going to just let people buy the Ewok...

[Soluss]

There is absolutely challenge. There is almost zero effort though.

 

Challenge deserves reward IMO...the more challenging, the higher the reward. But almost no effort is required for any reward you gain in a video game.

 

Effort has many meanings. The result of an attempt. Something produced by exertion or trying. The total work done to achieve a particular end.

 

Effort doesn't need to be some vigorous physical thing. Raiding can take a lot of man hours. Those man hours in itself is effort. I suppose when a raid is on farm status or a simple tank and spank you might say it has almost no effort. A team of uncoordinated people or even raids difficult enough to take many many attempts at downing a boss does take some effort. For a casual guild it might take a lot of effort just getting a raid together. It may not be physical effort like trying to pick up a car by yourself but its effort non the less.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Soluss

[LordArtemis]

What if you are a total spaz with the keyboard and mouse though?

 

I agree with you about the "challenge" component.... but there is an effort component as well. Simply because not all players are created equal and some must apply more effort to overcome a challenge.

 

I do however agree that a lot of actual "effort" in MMOs is basically "showing up" and "putting in your time"... with a sprinkling of real challenge and throttling of effort applied when faced with real challenge (like dying repeatedly to the same mission elite... simply because your keyboard+ mouse are having a tussle with your hands, or you failed to apply the "secret sauce" for that mission elite).

 

Well, to be fair I did say "almost" no effort. Sure, there will always be exceptions, one of the many caveats of generalizing.

 

I suppose my point is that speaking of playing video games as if it is a football game is a bit silly. The effort you have to put forth, in general, does not compare with the usual effort involved in making money.

 

Just my slant of course.

[KimbeFett]

The Ewok is fluff; pure fluff. Every class has a healing companions. Companions at the max level are used only for dailies and you probably can solo those anyway.

 

This is PRIME CM Material; what you are failing to realize is that this is just another CM item; you should feel lucky that they gave you a way to get to it from the Legacy system at all. If there WERE two versions of the Ewok; it would be the CM version that was tricked out, not the Legacy version.

 

CM is for fluff; for stuff that makes you "look" cooler.

 

What bothers me more about this addition (other than the fact that it is being portrayed as a non-CM update despite the fact that it is PURELY a CM addition) is that it doesn't really fit with the Lore does it? If Ewok's were out in space at this point in time; why are they such primitives thousands of years from now?

 

Also; whats worse, Pandas or Ewoks? TBH I vote Sith Lord with an Ewok chasing him around.

Edited July 4, 2013 by KimbeFett

[LordArtemis]

Effort has many meanings. The result of an attempt. Something produced by exertion or trying. The total work done to achieve a particular end.

 

Effort doesn't need to be some vigorous physical thing. Raiding can take a lot of man hours. Those man hours in itself is effort. I suppose when a raid is on farm status or a simple tank and spank you might say it has almost no effort. A team of uncoordinated people or even raids difficult enough to take many many attempts at downing a boss does take some effort. For a casual guild it might take a lot of effort just getting a raid together. It may not be physical effort like trying to pick up a car by yourself but its effort non the less.

 

If you were to compare the effort it takes to play a video game with the effort it takes to earn money I think, more often than not the real world effort would be the clear winner.

 

Too many folks try to describe playing a game like its a physical job. The effort is minimal, and in most cases I would guess the effort put forth to earn cash far exceeds the effort put forth to earn rewards in a game.

 

Therein lies the folly. One can generally speak to challenge and reward, but not effort and reward. You probably earn an item in game by paying cash for it with far greater effort than simply using in game mechanics to acquire it.

 

However, there is almost NO challenge to purchase an item with cash compared with working for it in a game. Hence the distinction. When compared as challenge/reward the complaint works. When compared as effort/reward it fails IMO.

 

So I think one could say a game completely absent of CHALLENGE is not a game worth playing, generally speaking.

Edited July 4, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Soluss]

If you were to compare the effort it takes to play a video game with the effort it takes to earn money I think, more often than not the real world effort would be the clear winner.

 

Too many folks try to describe playing a game like its a physical job. The effort is minimal, and in most cases I would guess the effort put forth to earn cash far exceeds the effort put forth to earn rewards in a game.

 

Therein lies the folly. One can generally speak to challenge and reward, but not effort and reward. You probably earn an item in game by paying cash for it with far greater effort than simply using in game mechanics to acquire it.

 

However, there is almost NO challenge to purchase an item with cash compared with working for it in a game. Hence the distinction. When compared as challenge/reward the complaint works. When compared as effort/reward it fails IMO.

 

So I think one could say a game completely absent of CHALLENGE is not a game worth playing, generally speaking.

 

In this case, challenge and effort go hand in hand. The harder the challenge the more effort needed. That same challenge also depends on the guild you are in or if you are in one at all. A top end guild may not find much effort because they are all really good at what they do. A pug group might wipe all night because half the people don't know what they are doing and there is no communication going on.

 

Effort is effort. I don't care if its money making effort or gameplaying effort. The word "effort", alone, does not distinguish between the two. I have had quite a few jobs, that payed really well, that I found easier then raiding at some points. So no, earning money doesn't always take more effort.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Soluss

[CommanderKeeva]

This is PRIME CM Material; what you are failing to realize is that this is just another CM item; you should feel lucky that they gave you a way to get to it from the Legacy system at all.

 

Well, they have to throw a bone to the subscribers now and then. Big Cartel spenders might throw more money at the developers than most subs, but it is the hardcore subs that invest enough time and effort into the game to reach the higher legacy levels.

 

Seems like this thread started out as a "why are you removing our exclusive item?" thread, which later turned into a "by the way why are you ignoring the legacy system and when can we expect the things we were promised a year ago?" thread.

 

Seems like everyone is interested in the legacy system now, even the people who weren't bothered the slightest that they had been lied to for over a year.

[TheBBP]

The Ewok is fluff; pure fluff. Every class has a healing companions. Companions at the max level are used only for dailies and you probably can solo those anyway.

 

This is PRIME CM Material; what you are failing to realize is that this is just another CM item; you should feel lucky that they gave you a way to get to it from the Legacy system at all. If there WERE two versions of the Ewok; it would be the CM version that was tricked out, not the Legacy version.

 

CM is for fluff; for stuff that makes you "look" cooler.

 

What bothers me more about this addition (other than the fact that it is being portrayed as a non-CM update despite the fact that it is PURELY a CM addition) is that it doesn't really fit with the Lore does it? If Ewok's were out in space at this point in time; why are they such primitives thousands of years from now?

 

Also; whats worse, Pandas or Ewoks? TBH I vote Sith Lord with an Ewok chasing him around.

 

The "Lore" argument was tossed out of the window the moment that Chiss were put into the game. So, please, no more failed attempts to stand on lore.

Edited July 4, 2013 by TheBBP

[Andryah]

Seems like everyone is interested in the legacy system now, even the people who weren't bothered the slightest that they had been lied to for over a year.

 

Legacy is an artifact of an earlier design path and strategy for the game. It benefits veteran players (which typically have much higher, if not capped, legacy level). It's classic "carrot on a stick", just presented in a different manner.

 

The CM benefits newer players more, as it allows them parity of access to Legacy perks IF they are willing to pay for them. It's also "carrot on a stick", but classic micro-transaction "carrot on a stick".

 

Legacy perks are in no way P2W, either way. So personally I can understand from a business model standpoint why we have what we have today (dual path to perks) and I have no problem with it.

 

TL;DR MMO mimics real life. Some people are gardeners and like to tend a garden and raise their own carrots. Some people are busy and do not have the time to grow their own carrots, so they buy them from the grocer.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Andryah

[KimbeFett]

The "Lore" argument was tossed out of the window the moment that Chiss were put into the game. So, please, no more failed attempts to stand on lore.

 

Failed attempts? Who is to say I'm not equally disappointed there as well. Ewoks are surely a loveably species from the original series but they should have remained there.

 

What Sith Lord wants a cuddly teddy bear as their companion? Master of Evil and Destruction but I can't get enough of this cute little bear, did you see how he shook that little rock-spear? OMG so CUTE!

 

. . .

[TheBBP]

Failed attempts? Who is to say I'm not equally disappointed there as well. Ewoks are surely a loveably species from the original series but they should have remained there.

 

What Sith Lord wants a cuddly teddy bear as their companion? Master of Evil and Destruction but I can't get enough of this cute little bear, did you see how he shook that little rock-spear? OMG so CUTE!

 

. . .

 

I am particularly fond of the healing animations.

[LordArtemis]

In this case, challenge and effort go hand in hand. The harder the challenge the more effort needed.

 

Not in a video game. Same can be said for writing a book, or painting something....people speak of the challenge to do something when effort is not substantial but it is still difficult to do, perhaps challenging ones intellect or coordination.

 

For instance, people quite often say "the artist's challenge was to present the dichotomy of one and the many"...but would not say "It took considerable effort for the artist to present the dichotomy of the one and the many"...mainly because no real effort was involved. Intellectual challenge was.

 

The problem with pretending that a game presents an actual effort requirement as opposed to a skill requirement and a challenge gate is that it gives the illusion of work.

 

A game's task is not work, nor can it be equated as such. It is entertainment, and therefore presents challenge and skill requirements perhaps but little effort.

 

One could define an earnest attempt toward a goal as effort, but a goal in a game represents a gated reward...the attempt does not pose it's own reward as it is a medium of entertainment. Since that reward is defined and the gate requires little mental discipline and coordination to achieve one really can not indicate mental effort of any real amount is required.

 

What is required is skill, memory recall, habitual movement and visual coordination. In other words challenge gates that require skill...but no real effort.

 

You want to talk puzzles, achievements, time based reward gates, races, etc then you can enter effort into the mix.

 

In the end cash purchases provide reward without challenge. They do not, however, provide reward without effort since the effort is almost nonexistent for in game means as well.

 

Some games are a physical or mental challenge by design. Most MMOs are not. This is just the reality of the genre.

[Grayseven]

I have to disagree on your definition of effort LordA.

 

Effort is more than just physical labor. It encompasses everything you've talked about as well as intangibles such as patience and perseverance. Work is effort, but effort isn't always work.

 

Effort in an MMO is the players ability to do what is necessary to achieve a goal. It may be mental only, but it is still effort. And the degree of effort involved will change from player to player. What one sees as overwhelming effort another sees as simple.

 

There is nothing hard about grinding dailies for comms, but most of us do it to reach a goal. In real life, our jobs are the same thing. My job is a combination of mental and physical effort. The mental effort is not "hard" only because I know my equipment and processes, and the physical effort (while at times daunting) isn't hard either...it is simply physically demanding. I do it to reach a goal of a paycheck which then allows me to reach the goals of food, clothing, shelter and the little things that make life fun.

 

When we talk of effort in an MMO, we talk of doing what is necessary to achieve a goal. When that goal is achieved without effort in game, it doesn't have the feeling of reward. It doesn't encourage game play. Yeah, if I want to drop an hour of pay on Cartel Coins to buy something, I've put in the effort outside the game to earn that pay but that does nothing to encourage game play within the game itself.

 

In my opinion, making everything so easy to get via the Cartel Market actually discourages game play. If I just buy a fancy speeder or get a hypercrate of gambling boxes I may have gotten something, but it has done nothing to make me do anything in game. Theoretically, I could completely gear a toon through the CM without actually doing anything in game simply by buying CM items, using what I want and selling what I don't on the GTN in order to get credits to buy the things I can't get through the CM. Without any in game effort, I could have everything I need EXCEPT for levels.

 

So, once I put in the effort to level a character to 55 I can get anything outside of top-tier ops gear while doing nothing in game outside of "playing the market". I know some people will say that playing the market is doing something in game but it is one miniscule aspect of the entire game and really doesn't take a lot of time and involves more luck than skill.

 

How long will a game that requires you to do nothing hold the interest of players?

[Soluss]

Not in a video game. Same can be said for writing a book, or painting something....people speak of the challenge to do something when effort is not substantial but it is still difficult to do, perhaps challenging ones intellect or coordination.

 

For instance, people quite often say "the artist's challenge was to present the dichotomy of one and the many"...but would not say "It took considerable effort for the artist to present the dichotomy of the one and the many"...mainly because no real effort was involved. Intellectual challenge was.

 

The problem with pretending that a game presents an actual effort requirement as opposed to a skill requirement and a challenge gate is that it gives the illusion of work.

 

A game's task is not work, nor can it be equated as such. It is entertainment, and therefore presents challenge and skill requirements perhaps but little effort.

 

One could define an earnest attempt toward a goal as effort, but a goal in a game represents a gated reward...the attempt does not pose it's own reward as it is a medium of entertainment. Since that reward is defined and the gate requires little mental discipline and coordination to achieve one really can not indicate mental effort of any real amount is required.

 

What is required is skill, memory recall, habitual movement and visual coordination. In other words challenge gates that require skill...but no real effort.

 

You want to talk puzzles, achievements, time based reward gates, races, etc then you can enter effort into the mix.

 

In the end cash purchases provide reward without challenge. They do not, however, provide reward without effort since the effort is almost nonexistent for in game means as well.

 

Some games are a physical or mental challenge by design. Most MMOs are not. This is just the reality of the genre.

 

Coordinating a pug full of uncoordinated people takes effort. Hardcore guild may not take much effort. A casual guild, and I use this term loosly because there are a lot of talented casuals, takes some effort. If you don't believe that then take a guild of 8 people, that never raided before and don't know the first thing about stats, and try and get them through a NiM mode. Then come back and tell me it took no effort. It will probably take you 3 months just to get a full raid force on at the same time. Then deal with the afk's and I gotta goes. Then deal with the people that don't understand to not stand in the fire, no matter how many times you explain it to them. Then deal with the people that don't even know what all their skills are (aka healer that doesn't know about cure etc). . Then deal with the wipes because no one was ready and the dps dood pulled 2 packs of mobs. Then deal with the half hour res because some people waited dead, some people went to the Medicaid droid, some people didn't repair and cant find the medic, some people zoned back in and went the wrong way thereby pulling more mobs that then again wipe your raid. Then deal with the guys that leave after 2 wipes because it wasn't fun (meaning click click wheres my loot didn't happen) Then try and find replacement. Before you know it, you just wasted 3 hours of your day and you barely made it to the first boss. It takes effort man. It really does.

 

I think what your problem is that your stuck on effort being physical only and that's not the case. Then you may be stuck in the fact that you are used to easy raiding because you have a good raid team. Raiding is not easy for everyone.

 

I will try to explain it this way.... If you look at a guitar player like say... Randy Rhoads. It would appear that playing guitar for him takes no effort. If you never touched a guitar before, and you try to play like Randy Rhoads... its going to take you a lot of effort. That may be a little extreme on the example but the premise is still the same.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Soluss

[Soluss]

I have to disagree on your definition of effort LordA.

 

Effort is more than just physical labor. It encompasses everything you've talked about as well as intangibles such as patience and perseverance. Work is effort, but effort isn't always work.

 

Effort in an MMO is the players ability to do what is necessary to achieve a goal. It may be mental only, but it is still effort. And the degree of effort involved will change from player to player. What one sees as overwhelming effort another sees as simple.

 

There is nothing hard about grinding dailies for comms, but most of us do it to reach a goal. In real life, our jobs are the same thing. My job is a combination of mental and physical effort. The mental effort is not "hard" only because I know my equipment and processes, and the physical effort (while at times daunting) isn't hard either...it is simply physically demanding. I do it to reach a goal of a paycheck which then allows me to reach the goals of food, clothing, shelter and the little things that make life fun.

 

When we talk of effort in an MMO, we talk of doing what is necessary to achieve a goal. When that goal is achieved without effort in game, it doesn't have the feeling of reward. It doesn't encourage game play. Yeah, if I want to drop an hour of pay on Cartel Coins to buy something, I've put in the effort outside the game to earn that pay but that does nothing to encourage game play within the game itself.

 

In my opinion, making everything so easy to get via the Cartel Market actually discourages game play. If I just buy a fancy speeder or get a hypercrate of gambling boxes I may have gotten something, but it has done nothing to make me do anything in game. Theoretically, I could completely gear a toon through the CM without actually doing anything in game simply by buying CM items, using what I want and selling what I don't on the GTN in order to get credits to buy the things I can't get through the CM. Without any in game effort, I could have everything I need EXCEPT for levels.

 

So, once I put in the effort to level a character to 55 I can get anything outside of top-tier ops gear while doing nothing in game outside of "playing the market". I know some people will say that playing the market is doing something in game but it is one miniscule aspect of the entire game and really doesn't take a lot of time and involves more luck than skill.

 

How long will a game that requires you to do nothing hold the interest of players?

 

Well said man!

[Chickensevil]

If this is P2W or somehow unfair to those who earned legacy levels etc, then they should remove all the other CM options tied to legacy rewards from the game. Why, how dare they let people buy speeder piloting with CC... why I had to grind credits for that back in 1.0, and now here they are, just letting people pay money for it!!!! Rage!

 

It's the same argument, and it is dumb. If there was some other means by which you had to earn this companion other than cash or credits then sure. But because you are essentially paying for the companion (one way or another) I don't really see how this is different. Honestly, I think they threw legacy 40 requirements out there just to get people to feel "forced" to buy it with CC since they aren't 40 yet.

 

It was probably something like this:

Hey lets release a companion on the CM!

Oh, but wait, people might complain that they have to pay CC for it.

Yeah, your right, we should give people a second option.

Well hey, since only 1% of our active population is over legacy 40, we can put in a restriction there for it, so it SEEMS like we are letting people have an option to earn the Companion.

Yeah! That's a great idea, and! We can charge them 1 mil credits so it locks more people from wanting to grind out to get the companion and they will instead sink money into the CM thereby making us more money in the long run.

 

Just remember, cows who think they have the freedom to leave whenever they want produce better milk than those who are caged in a 10 by 5 cage.

 

Personally, it is not even remotely the same as trying to "earn" the companion vs buying... since as pointed out, most at this point didn't grind to legacy 40 so they could be 40... they just got it by accident... because, well, there was no real point to getting to 40 anyway (like getting valor 100). If it was the difference between going through some long complicated quest requiring tons of dedicated time vs paying for it with money, then yes, it would be a P2W situation.

[branmakmuffin]

Coordinating a pug full of uncoordinated people takes effort.

Oh, the humanity. The horrid drudgery people have to go through to play a game. It's inhuman. It's worse than hunting through the hall closet for the Monopoly box.

 

How do those poor, selfless souls do it?

Edited July 5, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Soluss]

Oh, the humanity. The horrid drudgery people have to go through to play a game. It's inhuman. It's worse than hunting through the hall closet for the Monopoly box.

 

How do those poor, selfless souls do it?

 

What, no "first world problem" statement from you? Maybe what you said means the same thing. It has nothing to do with the point of my post.

[branmakmuffin]

What, no "first world problem" statement from you? Maybe what you said means the same thing. It has nothing to do with the point of my post.

Your post didn't even have anything do with the point of your post.

[Soluss]

Your post didn't even have anything do with the point of your post.

 

Yes it did. You have nothing useful to say so just move along.