Minor XP boost granting 20% XP gain instead of 25%

[jasoneth]

A guildmate was concerned that the purchasable XP boosts were not being applied during the double XP weekend. His confusion was due to not realising the XP boost was automatically applied to the XP display in the mission log, as was recently confirmed.

 

However, in checking this myself, I found that for the mission "Some People Just Need Killing" (Bounty Hunter class mission), the XP reward in the Mission Rewards panel showed 17550 XP with a Minor XP Boost running. After it expired, the Mission Rewards showed 14625 XP.

 

So 17550 is 120% of 14625. The implication is that the applied boost was only 20%, rather than the stated 25%.

 

I realise I may be missing something here! Is there another explanation? I know the XP a character receives does match what the Mission Rewards shows, once you add the guild bonus of 10%.

 

UPDATE: A couple of screenshots showing the effect, with the XP boost and after the XP boost expired.

Edited July 1, 2013 by jasoneth

[jasoneth]

I decided to go through the steps from scratch, to reproduce the issue, using the mission "Imperial Edict" on Korriban. The following were done with a level 5 character, with the screenshots taken without a level change.

 

1. Default XP as shown by the Mission Rewards window was 781 (screenshot).
   
2. After using a minor XP boost, the Mission Rewards window shows 937 (screenshot). This is only a 20% increase, not the 25% the XP boost is meant to provide.
   
3. I then went through the conversation to complete the mission, with the Mission Complete window showing 1875 (screenshot) due to this being a double XP weekend (2 x 937).
   
4. I then clicked [Accept], and received (as shown in the chat) 2062 XP (screenshot), with is an extra 10% on top of 1875 for the guild bonus.
   

 

There are two explanations for what I'm seeing that occur to me immediately: the first is that the Mission Rewards window is always showing 5% more XP than the player would actually receive. I'll test that separately.

 

The second (and seemingly most likely) is that minor XP boosts are only providing 20% XP, rather than 25%. I also need to test a boost when the double XP weekend is not in effect, to see if it provides 25% normally.

[Sir-Coffee]

I would like to have a dev response, but knowing EricMusco or the rest of the Dev team, they will most likely ignore this thread just like they are doing for the Revan one.

 

Great find TC.

[HolyLordChaos]

I would like to have a dev response, but knowing EricMusco or the rest of the Dev team, they will most likely ignore this thread just like they are doing for the Revan one.

 

Great find TC.

 

Eric Musco is a Community Manager, he's not really part of the dev team par say. I'm sure he will report this issue to the devs even if he doesn't reply to every topic.

 

I think your math may be wrong due to the lack of one factor.

 

Try having your buddy temporarily leave the guild and use one?

 

I think what's happening is you are gaining 35% of the base XP instead of 10% more plus 25% more.

[BenKatarn]

I recall having read somewhere that in actuality, the Experience Boosts only grant +20% for subscribers, because they already receive around 5% more experience than F2Ps and prefered players, meaning that the actual number only applies to those not subscribed. Could be totally wrong, though.

[jasoneth]

I tested my second explanation, that the Mission Rewards window always shows 5% more XP than the player would actually receive.

 

This was done using an unguilded character (so no guild XP bonus applied), without a 25% XP boost running, and handing in the same mission that I used previously.

 

 

1. Default XP as shown by the Mission Rewards window was again 781 (screenshot).
   
2. I then went through the conversation to complete the mission, with the Mission Complete window showing 1562 (screenshot) due to this being a double XP weekend (2 x 781).
   
3. I then clicked [Accept], and received (as shown in the chat) 1562 XP (screenshot), unchanged without a guild bonus.
   

 

This confirms that what is shown in the Missions Reward window does indeed match what is received by the player, thus the XP boost does seem to be only providing a 20% increase, not the advertised 25%.

[jasoneth]

I think your math may be wrong due to the lack of one factor.

 

Try having your buddy temporarily leave the guild and use one?

 

I think what's happening is you are gaining 35% of the base XP instead of 10% more plus 25% more.

I played with the numbers to come up with an alternative explanation, but what I documented fits the evidence. Note that we can clearly see where the 10% guild bonus is applied, as the last step (the XP received being 10% more than what the Mission Rewards window indicates).

 

As seen above, I did try with an unguilded toon, and reproduced the result.

I recall having read somewhere that in actuality, the Experience Boosts only grant +20% for subscribers, because they already receive around 5% more experience than F2Ps and prefered players, meaning that the actual number only applies to those not subscribed. Could be totally wrong, though.

I've yet to hear a definitive statement of what the Free/Preferred XP reduction actually is. I thought it was around 25%, though 20% would make more sense, meaning that a 25% boost would get you back to what Subscribers get by default.

 

For example, if a Mission rewards 10,000 XP for Subscribers, a 20% reduction would be 8,000 XP for Free/Preferred; applying a 25% boost would then bring them back to 10,000 XP.

 

Of course, given that it appears XP boosts only grant 20%... that wouldn't work as intended! Given the tooltip clearly states 25% increased XP with no caveats, there's no reason to believe they want it to work differently for subscribers.

[Leafy_Bug]

Working as intended just like resilience which gives 200% immunity to everything all the time but somehow mobs have a 5% chance to hit you or the boss in that 200% and you still get pwned and die!

 

 

This 5% number is here as well!!! SWTORCEPTION!!!! :eek:

[SithKoriandr]

Sounds like something that needs to be fixed for those who bought the items and didn't get what was advertised.

[EricMusco]

Hey guys!

 

Sorry for the delay in response, we wanted to make sure everything was working correctly and as intended.

 

To Jasoneth, your math is actually spot on, but you are missing a factor which is why the numbers aren't coming up correct. Without going into specifics, you are using your quest experience gain as a subsriber as the base. However, the thing to keep in mind is that subscribers get a bonus % to experience over F2P players. The base experience is what F2P earn, not what subs earn.

 

So if you were to use the F2P players experience gain as a base, and then apply the bonuses, the math would work!

 

I would like to commend you on this thread. This is the exact kind of constructive and detailed feedback we look for it. It greatly helps is in assessing an issue and determining if there is in fact a bug!

 

Secondary note, this report did allow us to find a bug that some XP bonuses were not being shown in the visible mission rewards window. That bug is being fixed and is currently slated for 2.2.3.

 

-eric

[Hassat-Hunter]

Can you try it again with a guilded char *without* the +XP boost?

 

Theory;

The old +5% guild boost is still listed in the XP value (even if not given) since replaced by a variable XP boost (the 10% you note). They after all modified it before to show that value.

That would also explain why you see no error with an unguilded toon.

 

It's just a theory of course, but I am pretty sure this is what's going on based on posts here .

And otherwise I can test it myself in a few hours

[Koolthulu]

So the XP Boost doesn't stack with the Sub boost? Sure sounds like a bug to me.

[Nothematic]

Hey guys!

 

Sorry for the delay in response, we wanted to make sure everything was working correctly and as intended.

 

To Jasoneth, your math is actually spot on, but you are missing a factor which is why the numbers aren't coming up correct. Without going into specifics, you are using your quest experience gain as a subsriber as the base. However, the thing to keep in mind is that subscribers get a bonus % to experience over F2P players. The base experience is what F2P earn, not what subs earn.

 

So if you were to use the F2P players experience gain as a base, and then apply the bonuses, the math would work!

 

I would like to commend you on this thread. This is the exact kind of constructive and detailed feedback we look for it. It greatly helps is in assessing an issue and determining if there is in fact a bug!

 

Secondary note, this report did allow us to find a bug that some XP bonuses were not being shown in the visible mission rewards window. That bug is being fixed and is currently slated for 2.2.3.

 

-eric

 

You could definitely add that as a benefit to subscribers. 'Your baserate will be 5%(?) higher than F2Ps, meaning any XP bonuses applied will stack'.

[oembob]

Hey guys!

 

Sorry for the delay in response, we wanted to make sure everything was working correctly and as intended.

 

To Jasoneth, your math is actually spot on, but you are missing a factor which is why the numbers aren't coming up correct. Without going into specifics, you are using your quest experience gain as a subsriber as the base. However, the thing to keep in mind is that subscribers get a bonus % to experience over F2P players. The base experience is what F2P earn, not what subs earn.

 

So if you were to use the F2P players experience gain as a base, and then apply the bonuses, the math would work!

 

I would like to commend you on this thread. This is the exact kind of constructive and detailed feedback we look for it. It greatly helps is in assessing an issue and determining if there is in fact a bug!

 

Secondary note, this report did allow us to find a bug that some XP bonuses were not being shown in the visible mission rewards window. That bug is being fixed and is currently slated for 2.2.3.

 

-eric

 

But that isn't what the tool tip says on the consumables. They are supposed to increase by 25% "all experience gained", not just 25% of the base XP.

[Scarr_swtor]

But that isn't what the tool tip says on the consumables. They are supposed to increase by 25% "all experience gained", not just 25% of the base XP.

 

I agree with this post, if the item says it will boost by 25% but we only get 20% because the F2Pers get 5% less base xp, That is just wrong and to me makes the subscribers even less valued. Reminds me greatly of a worthless 500cc for free for subscribers also to me not worth the value.

[jasoneth]

So the XP Boost doesn't stack with the Sub boost? Sure sounds like a bug to me.

Thanks to Eric's response, it's now possible to work backwards to determine the subscriber's bonus to XP, which it turns out is 25%, as shown in my examples below.

 

But interestingly, it seems that the XP boost's 25% is added to the subscriber 25% bonus to give 150% of the mission's base XP. That means that it's not 125% on top of the base mission's 125%, which would be 156.25% (but it's pretty close!).

 

Mission "Some People Just Need Killing"

 

Base XP: 11700 (received by Free-to-play and Preferred players)

Subscriber 25% bonus, without XP boost: 14625 (11700 * 1.25)

Subscriber 25% bonus, with 25% XP boost: 17550 (11700 * 1.5)

 

Mission "Imperial Edict"

 

Base XP: 625 (received by Free-to-play and Preferred players)

Subscriber 25% bonus, without XP boost: 781 (625 * 1.25 = 781.25)

Subscriber 25% bonus, with 25% XP boost: 937 (625 * 1.5 = 937.5)

Edited July 10, 2013 by jasoneth

[Heezdedjim]

To Jasoneth, your math is actually spot on, but you are missing a factor which is why the numbers aren't coming up correct. Without going into specifics, you are using your quest experience gain as a subsriber as the base. However, the thing to keep in mind is that subscribers get a bonus % to experience over F2P players. The base experience is what F2P earn, not what subs earn.

Just FYI Eric, this is what is generally referred to as "false advertising." The item does not state that it increases a subscriber's XP by 25% over the amount rewarded to a non-subscriber. Also, say that to yourself a couple of times and see how stupid it sounds. Would you pay for this item if that's how it was actually pitched to you?

 

The item says that it increases "all experience gained by 25%." That means if I do X in game, and I get 100 XP without the item in effect, then I should get 125 XP with the item in effect. That, of course, is only what the item does if I am a non-subscriber. If I am a subscriber, the item does not do that. You are falsely advertising this item and basically ripping every subscriber off who buys it. And that's just lame.

 

Until you can get your systems people to do the "hard math" needed to make this item actually give a 25% XP buff to subscribers as well as nonsubscribers, you should at least change the description to reflect what it actually does. It is not a 25% buff. Selling it as a 25% buff is a lie. So either fix it, or call it what it is: A buff that gives a subscriber a 25% buff over the amount of XP that a non-subscriber would get.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Heezdedjim

[OmenQ]

Just FYI Eric, this is what is generally referred to as "false advertising."

 

The consumable boost is additive, not multiplicative, as the post above yours demonstrates. You are in fact getting an additional 25% boost.

 

The only XP boost I know of that is multiplicative is the Double XP Weekends. Can someone confirm that the guild XP bonus is additive as well?

[jasoneth]

The consumable boost is additive, not multiplicative, as the post above yours demonstrates. You are in fact getting an additional 25% boost.

 

The only XP boost I know of that is multiplicative is the Double XP Weekends. Can someone confirm that the guild XP bonus is additive as well?

Yes, the 10% guild bonus is multiplicative too, as demonstrated in the second post in this thread.

 

The explanation of how the XP boosts work is clear, but is clearly non-obvious due to the Mission Rewards window showing the original XP prior to the boost being applied. While we now know it's 150% of base XP, no one seemed to realise (including me) that subs got a 25% anyway--the general consensus was that Free/Preferred got a decrease.

 

All people see is that, via the Mission Rewards window, applying the XP boost gives around a 20% boost, not the stated 25%. Hence why this question was asked in the first place.

 

Possible solutions include making it truly multiplicative (which means the tooltip becomes accurate as it is), or change the tooltip to state that it grants 150% on base XP for subscribers, and 125% on base XP for Free/Preferred (accurate if cumbersome). Since double XP and the guild bonus are both multiplicative, the former solution seems preferable.

[Glzmo]

But that isn't what the tool tip says on the consumables. They are supposed to increase by 25% "all experience gained", not just 25% of the base XP.

Indeed, and that's clearly false advertising.

[OmenQ]

Possible solutions include making it truly multiplicative (which means the tooltip becomes accurate as it is), or change the tooltip to state that it grants 150% on base XP for subscribers, and 125% on base XP for Free/Preferred (accurate if cumbersome). Since double XP and the guild bonus are both multiplicative, the former solution seems preferable.

 

I agree, the solution that is more beneficial to the players is of course to make it multiplicative, but if that's not technically feasible then clearer wording of the tooltip would alleviate the situation.

 

I think it could be worded as such: "Adds a 25% bonus to base XP gained for all activity"

That would be much more easily understood than the current tooltip.

 

But to call the current situation false advertising is wrong. It's simply unclear language. You ARE getting a 25% increase to all XP received, it's just being added to a different base point than you assumed.

[HolyLordChaos]

Just FYI Eric, this is what is generally referred to as "false advertising." The item does not state that it increases a subscriber's XP by 25% over the amount rewarded to a non-subscriber. Also, say that to yourself a couple of times and see how stupid it sounds. Would you pay for this item if that's how it was actually pitched to you?

 

The item says that it increases "all experience gained by 25%." That means if I do X in game, and I get 100 XP without the item in effect, then I should get 125 XP with the item in effect. That, of course, is only what the item does if I am a non-subscriber. If I am a subscriber, the item does not do that. You are falsely advertising this item and basically ripping every subscriber off who buys it. And that's just lame.

 

Until you can get your systems people to do the "hard math" needed to make this item actually give a 25% XP buff to subscribers as well as nonsubscribers, you should at least change the description to reflect what it actually does. It is not a 25% buff. Selling it as a 25% buff is a lie. So either fix it, or call it what it is: A buff that gives a subscriber a 25% buff over the amount of XP that a non-subscriber would get.

 

I don't know why you are complaining about how the Bioware Development team chose to apply their mathematical formulas. After all, they chose to give you experience buffs and constant double XP buffs all summer long.

[jasoneth]

The actual wording is:

Use: Increases all experience gained by 25% for 1 hour. Cannot be combined with any other Experience Boost. (Cooldown: 1 hour)

 

The "all experience" refers to the sources (mob kills, mission turn-ins, exploration), which differentiates it from rest XP (only mob kills). As already confirmed, it does increase the gain by 25%... from a certain point of view.

 

I think it'd be ideal to change it to be multiplicative, especially with the Mission Rewards window now showing the XP. There is the expectation of a 25% Experience Boost increasing the XP value you see in the Mission Rewards by 25%, rather than whatever it does work out to be.

 

Given the two ways the base XP is increased now, it's kind of hard to make clear in terms of changing the wording of the tooltip.

 

Of course, given the vast majority of people probably don't bother checking the numbers, I can see that letting it stand would also be a viable solution.

[Ancaglon]

I don't know why you are complaining about how the Bioware Development team chose to apply their mathematical formulas. After all, they chose to give you experience buffs and constant double XP buffs all summer long.

The distinction is that they are selling XP boosts which are advertised as giving 25% extra XP but are not giving that for subscribers. Would you be happy buying something that's supposed to give you 25% more mileage on your car but only gives 20% more, because they based the increase on less efficient cars?

 

If it were all "free", no problem. Charge for it, and you have to deliver what you promised.

[Heezdedjim]

But to call the current situation false advertising is wrong. It's simply unclear language. You ARE getting a 25% increase to all XP received, it's just being added to a different base point than you assumed.

It gives me an inifinity XP boost compared to someone who doesn't play the game at all. So why not call it a 500% XP boost? They would sell a lot more, and it clearly gives me five-hundred percent more XP than some arbitrary number that is 1/5 of what I would get by not using it, so 500% is just as true as 25%.

 

Or they could just stop lying. Or fix the product.