ironix Posted December 25, 2011 Author Share Posted December 25, 2011 Item level already exists in game. It's called armor rating. Funny you should mention that. Most people wanting DPS meters are top end raiders which means they excel at everything not just DPS. The ones that are against it ...well you know the story Indeed. Given the responses thus far, this seems to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squidlah Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I'm in two minds regarding combat logs/damage meters. For: it would be good, as others have pointed out, as it would help teams and individuals to hone their tactics and skill setups, and make them better players in addition to the experience from actually playing. It would simply make it better for people who want to know how to make things go splat more efficiently. Against: People will start being crucified after every single battle. The inevitable "Good fight, DM?" will see people kicked from groups because they had the lowest damage. Not bad damage, but the lowest. This is one of the reasons I quit WoW when I did, because damage meters were being used by everyone, constantly, after fights with trash mobs in instances, and the lowest DPS would be picked on, kicked, etc. We don't need World of Warcraft here. This game is better. If a boss goes down and nobody dies, then everyone is doing their job properly. If a boss goes down, and one person dies, and another person comes close to it, everyone is doing their job properly. If the group wipes, maybe everyone was doing their job properly, but their tactics are flawed. Learn by doing or learn by combat logs. We don't need damage meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seismax Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I'm in two minds regarding combat logs/damage meters. For: it would be good, as others have pointed out, as it would help teams and individuals to hone their tactics and skill setups, and make them better players in addition to the experience from actually playing. It would simply make it better for people who want to know how to make things go splat more efficiently. Against: People will start being crucified after every single battle. The inevitable "Good fight, DM?" will see people kicked from groups because they had the lowest damage. Not bad damage, but the lowest. This is one of the reasons I quit WoW when I did, because damage meters were being used by everyone, constantly, after fights with trash mobs in instances, and the lowest DPS would be picked on, kicked, etc. We don't need World of Warcraft here. This game is better. If a boss goes down and nobody dies, then everyone is doing their job properly. If a boss goes down, and one person dies, and another person comes close to it, everyone is doing their job properly. If the group wipes, maybe everyone was doing their job properly, but their tactics are flawed. Learn by doing or learn by combat logs. We don't need damage meters. I disagree, if people die everyone clearly wasn't doing their job properly. They were merely doing it sufficiently to succeed. That could mean a few things, maybe everyone in the group was a bit off, or maybe select individuals, but something was obviously off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironix Posted December 25, 2011 Author Share Posted December 25, 2011 Against: People will start being crucified after every single battle. The inevitable "Good fight, DM?" will see people kicked from groups because they had the lowest damage. Not bad damage, but the lowest. This is one of the reasons I quit WoW when I did, because damage meters were being used by everyone, constantly, after fights with trash mobs in instances, and the lowest DPS would be picked on, kicked, etc. This has NEVER happened to me. Ever. The only time the lowest DPS or HPS would be kicked would be on fights where we've been consistently throwing ourselves at the boss and failing because of a DPS or HPS issue. Never have I seen people booted simply because they had the lowest DPS or HPS when there wasn't any problem with us downing the content. I seem to think your experience is either on a horrible server full of selfish douches or you somehow expect that a raid can function when the overall raid DPS requirement isn't met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheToony Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Oh boy! I can't wait to get kicked out of a group because a lagspike caused a 0.5% dip in my overall DPS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 (edited) I'm in two minds regarding combat logs/damage meters. For: it would be good, as others have pointed out, as it would help teams and individuals to hone their tactics and skill setups, and make them better players in addition to the experience from actually playing. It would simply make it better for people who want to know how to make things go splat more efficiently. Against: People will start being crucified after every single battle. The inevitable "Good fight, DM?" will see people kicked from groups because they had the lowest damage. Not bad damage, but the lowest. This is one of the reasons I quit WoW when I did, because damage meters were being used by everyone, constantly, after fights with trash mobs in instances, and the lowest DPS would be picked on, kicked, etc. We don't need World of Warcraft here. This game is better. If a boss goes down and nobody dies, then everyone is doing their job properly. If a boss goes down, and one person dies, and another person comes close to it, everyone is doing their job properly. If the group wipes, maybe everyone was doing their job properly, but their tactics are flawed. Learn by doing or learn by combat logs. We don't need damage meters. Winners never think like that. That's why they manage to win. Oh boy! I can't wait to get kicked out of a group because a lagspike caused a 0.5% dip in my overall DPS! Oh boy i can't wait to see that actually happening, because i never ever ever ever did and it's complete made-up stuff ! Edited December 25, 2011 by Skeelol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironix Posted December 25, 2011 Author Share Posted December 25, 2011 Oh boy! I can't wait to get kicked out of a group because a lagspike caused a 0.5% dip in my overall DPS! Really? I don't know how to respond to ignorance on this level... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonAgeOrgins Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 OMG no they will never be in game o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheToony Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Really? I don't know how to respond to ignorance on this level... You act like it won't happen. Either you're ignoring the inevitable or you're incredibly naive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 You act like it won't happen. Either you're ignoring the inevitable or you're incredibly naive. It won't happen and it never did. Stop trying to convince us really. Your dps is under the tanks and miles away from the other dps? Yeah then sure. 0.5% less than the other dps? No, never. Even with the most annoying kid in existence as the leader of the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squidlah Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 This has NEVER happened to me. Ever. The only time the lowest DPS or HPS would be kicked would be on fights where we've been consistently throwing ourselves at the boss and failing because of a DPS or HPS issue. Never have I seen people booted simply because they had the lowest DPS or HPS when there wasn't any problem with us downing the content. I seem to think your experience is either on a horrible server full of selfish douches or you somehow expect that a raid can function when the overall raid DPS requirement isn't met. Probably, used to play on Steamwheedle Cartel (EU). Only ever encountered bastards towards the end, but all my characters were there. Groups don't tend to fail because of low DPS, groups fail because people are trying to deal the most damage or look busy (so they attack trash rather than bosses) or fail to heal because they're watching Phantom Menace and slipped into a self-defensive coma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjeldsen Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Indeed. Given the responses thus far, this seems to be the case. Top raiders will be top raiders with or without dmg meters why do something wrong when it doesn´t really benefit anyone. And don´t tell me you can´t tell when someone is a bad player. Top raiders have no problem pointing those out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicarras Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Oh boy! I can't wait to get kicked out of a group because a lagspike caused a 0.5% dip in my overall DPS! Right because that happend in WoW. It didn't. Having the data available to become a better player is a good thing. People need to stop being worried that they 'arent going to be good enough'. There will be various types of groups, super hardcore all the way to people who just want to RP. You can find the group that fits your playstyle. People also act like that if they hide this data that people wont be able to figure out who is under performing or dying a lot or making lots of mistakes. People will still figure this out. Just work to improve your game and you'll be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Top raiders will be top raiders with or without dmg meters why do something wrong when it doesn´t really benefit anyone. And don´t tell me you can´t tell when someone is a bad player. Top raiders have no problem pointing those out. Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironix Posted December 25, 2011 Author Share Posted December 25, 2011 You act like it won't happen. Either you're ignoring the inevitable or you're incredibly naive. So, we should be making sure that anything that can ever, under any circumstances, be used to discriminate in any way whatsoever, should no be apart of the game. Is that what you're saying? Cause if you are, there's a rather large list of currently implemented tools and features I believe should be removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GumBoil Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 If you aren't bad you don't have to worry about damage meters. I'm certainly 'not good' (in a 133t 5k1LLz sort of way) and I'm not worried either. Seriously if you are a 'hardcore raider' then I am sure it is an indispensable tool if not who cares? Really a non issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheToony Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 It won't happen and it never did. Stop trying to convince us really. Your dps is under the tanks and miles away from the other dps? Yeah then sure. 0.5% less than the other dps? No, never. Even with the most annoying kid in existence as the leader of the group. Yes. People will get on your case for your DPS being even slightly below what they expect. And even the nicer types will jump on you to try and "save you" with "more efficent!" ways. If I wanted your advice, I'd ask. I just hope theres a way to turn off damage meters. You want to see yours? Good. I don't want you to see mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GumBoil Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 (edited) Probably, used to play on Steamwheedle Cartel (EU). Only ever encountered bastards towards the end, but all my characters were there. Groups don't tend to fail because of low DPS, groups fail because people are trying to deal the most damage or look busy (so they attack trash rather than bosses) or fail to heal because they're watching Phantom Menace and slipped into a self-defensive coma. Shock horror, top DPSer in completely clueless scandal! Edited December 25, 2011 by GumBoil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheToony Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Right because that happend in WoW. It didn't. Having the data available to become a better player is a good thing. People need to stop being worried that they 'arent going to be good enough'. There will be various types of groups, super hardcore all the way to people who just want to RP. You can find the group that fits your playstyle. People also act like that if they hide this data that people wont be able to figure out who is under performing or dying a lot or making lots of mistakes. People will still figure this out. Just work to improve your game and you'll be fine. Yes, if the data is hidden you will likely be unable to notice a 2% dip in overall damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seismax Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Yes. People will get on your case for your DPS being even slightly below what they expect. And even the nicer types will jump on you to try and "save you" with "more efficent!" ways. If I wanted your advice, I'd ask. I just hope theres a way to turn off damage meters. You want to see yours? Good. I don't want you to see mine. Don't play with me then? No really, if you're afraid of other people evaluating you when you join a group... don't group up with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 (edited) Yes, if the data is hidden you will likely be unable to notice a 2% dip in overall damage. 2% dip? More like 50% or 80% like most of the people complaining here will have. Get real please, noone will get on your case for having a 10%-20% lower dps than you should. In dungeons at least, raids will be a totally different story as they should. Edited December 25, 2011 by Skeelol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironix Posted December 25, 2011 Author Share Posted December 25, 2011 (edited) Probably, used to play on Steamwheedle Cartel (EU). Only ever encountered bastards towards the end, but all my characters were there. Groups don't tend to fail because of low DPS, groups fail because people are trying to deal the most damage or look busy (so they attack trash rather than bosses) or fail to heal because they're watching Phantom Menace and slipped into a self-defensive coma. See, I've never experience this recently. Perhaps back in BC or Vanilla, yes, but not in the last few years at least. On my server raid leaders tend to often be quite understanding and cooperative. Loot is almost always distributed in a fair manner even if it is going to the lowest DPS or that one guy who died to the fire. All in all, people are quite accommodating. That whole area of "OMG damage meters create anarchy and douche raid leaders" is completely foreign to me and most of my server I would assume (US-Proudmoore, the unofficial Gay & Lesbian server). Perhaps it is because of the kind of server that I'm on that I don't have to deal with this kind of nonsense. Regardless though, the fact that our server seems to function quite nicely with these kinds of mods only goes to show that it isn't the fact that damage meters exist that cause issues. The issues are generally caused by people who you shouldn't be interacting with to begin with. Edited December 25, 2011 by ironix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seismax Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 2% dip? More like 50% or 80% like most of the people complaining here will have. Get real please, noone will get on your case for having a 10%-20% lower dps than you should. In dungeons at least, raids will be a totally different story as they should. The math is going to be beyond most people. It's very hard for a lot of people to comprehend that 2% less of the total damage done in a 25 person group actually tends to mean you're doing ~30% less damage than the other guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimgold Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 ... Against: People will start being crucified after every single battle. The inevitable "Good fight, DM?" will see people kicked from groups because they had the lowest damage. Not bad damage, but the lowest. This is one of the reasons I quit WoW when I did, because damage meters were being used by everyone, constantly, after fights with trash mobs in instances, and the lowest DPS would be picked on, kicked, etc. Are you for real, in all of my wow pug experience I votekicked a handful characters, almost all due to unannounced afks, a few for being douches, and not a single one for low dps. As long as Bosses are dropping I don't think any reasonable person cares that there is someone in the party that isn't up to snuff. We were all new once, or recently hit the level cap. I've seen people kicked for low dps in raids, but it's fairly rare because you have to find a replacement, and raids (especially pugs) live and die on their momentum. So in general you only kick people if there is a problem, and I've seen many more people kicked for standing in fires than low dps. Still I'm not sure why your bothering, lets face it, this fight is done, and the damage meter crowd won (or more like didn't loose). Your post smacks of hyperbole, and your implied threat to walk should be taken with a grain of salt, after all if your willing to walk over something as ingrained in MMOs as damage meters, your probably not a good fit for the genre anyway. Do have a merry christmas, and I wish you luck in finding a game to suit your interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelKer-Nal Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 2% dip? More like 50% or 80% like most of the people complaining here will have. Get real please, noone will get on your case for having a 10%-20% lower dps than you should. In dungeons at least, raids will be a totally different story as they should. Riiiiiight. Because you've teamed with me on high end raids so many times you already know this. How rude. How arrogant. I have responses to all this garbage, but you don't want to hear it. All you want to know is "I'm a WoW raider and I don't want to do it any other way". At this time I refer you to my sig and bid you farewell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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