Combat Logs are coming! Damage meters & analysis soon to follow!

[TheHauntingBard]

I'll pass on the dps meters and such. If you're so pathetic that you decide that person X has to do DPS amount Y in your group....well, you're a waste of pixels anyway. Sorry, WoW rejects, but DPS does not a party make. I'll take a guy who's focused, attentive and helps the group anywhere and anyway needed over some ******** who's only concern is being top DPS in the party ANY day of the week.

 

Again, garbage like this is why WoW has ruined MMO's.

 

Do you honestly want to listen to a person like this?

This is a prime example of a person against add ons.

Rude and vulgar and makes no points what so ever.

 

Besides WOW wasn't the first MMO out with a damage meter/recount/parser.

[Airinya]

Do you honestly want to listen to a person like this?

This is a prime example of a person against add ons.

Rude and vulgar and makes no points what so ever.

 

Besides WOW wasn't the first MMO out with a damage meter/recount/parser.

 

Is this the kind of person you want to listen to? The kind of person that supports addons - takes one person and externalizes it to an entire population.

[TheHauntingBard]

Is this the kind of person you want to listen to? The kind of person that supports addons - takes one person and externalizes it to an entire population.

 

It seems it's hard to understand what a civil tone is, I guess you might get that in a few years.

[Airinya]

It seems it's hard to understand what a civil tone is, I guess you might get that in a few years.

 

Did you find something in my response to yours uncivil? I was simply pointing out the irony of an factually inaccurate pointing out a factually inaccurate post.

[Thelgow]

They do help, I can say that much.

I was learning to Tank in wow with 4 rl friends and we kept wiping.

I felt horrible about it, thinking I sucked really bad.

Almost passed up on it.

So I geared up hard and tried again, kept wiping.

What gives? So one day I decided to tank a random pug, usually the worst idea you can do it.

No problems. I tanked a bunch that day, no problems.

That night we grouped up again, wipes.

I got a dps meter..

This was a few months ago so my Rogue was doing about 21k. I was pulling 22-23 as dps on my DK. My friends were all doing 7-9k.

So here I have 4 people blaming me, when in fact I was the only one technically doing whats proper.

I told them to read up on some rotations, etc. These guys never research anything and it's amazing they even hit 85..

I for one am a fan of the meters. Im not big on "j00 must pull 24k", but in a case like mine it was a tool to try and fix what was going on.

[TheHauntingBard]

Did you find something in my response to yours uncivil? I was simply pointing out the irony of an factually inaccurate pointing out a factually inaccurate post.

 

Read the posts I quoted.

If you don't get what his attitude is typical anti add on crowd I guess you haven't been long enough on the forum or you don't understand what is not civil about it.

[chickenrot]

i vote NO for damage meters.thats all

[weezdajuice]

It seems it's hard to understand what a civil tone is, I guess you might get that in a few years.

 

awww he played the age card. Isn't that cute?!

[kiddeth]

how big of an idiot do you have to be to not know if your winning or not.

[Elog]

Read the posts I quoted.

If you don't get what his attitude is typical anti add on crowd I guess you haven't been long enough on the forum or you don't understand what is not civil about it.

 

What you do miss is that some people love add-ons, some people like some add-ons and some people hate add-ons - it is a preference and not a universal quality.

 

That is the reason for the debate.

 

Personally I am for a combat log (and hence a parser is some format) but totally against APIs that allow for ability timers etc (and as a result DBM and similar add-ons).

Edited December 29, 2011 by Elog

[Quelor]

I see so many posts from people against meters.

 

This makes me happy. There wont be a problem adding in meters / logs because it will be enough of the kinds.

 

Some guilds can play without them, some can play with them.

Casual vs competitive.

 

The only reason I see why you don't want people to have meters, is because you lack the confidence / skills to make the best out of the class you play.

 

If the only negative thing you can say is that it forces certain skill trees on you and such, FIND A NEW guild to play with?

 

 

I like it to see how others of my class compare to me, if I can ask them for tips / give them.

Without a meter, my class is like half a painting, I cant fully grasp the whole of it. I want that.

[skorpius]

I see so many posts from people against meters.

 

This makes me happy. There wont be a problem adding in meters / logs because it will be enough of the kinds.

 

Some guilds can play without them, some can play with them.

Casual vs competitive.

 

The only reason I see why you don't want people to have meters, is because you lack the confidence / skills to make the best out of the class you play.

 

If the only negative thing you can say is that it forces certain skill trees on you and such, FIND A NEW guild to play with?

 

 

I like it to see how others of my class compare to me, if I can ask them for tips / give them.

Without a meter, my class is like half a painting, I cant fully grasp the whole of it. I want that.

 

SO you like easy mode, go play WoW.

[Quelor]

SO you like easy mode, go play WoW.

 

Explain how its getting easier if you give me a meter.

[Tremk]

damage meters help to know what brakets of dungeons you can do as you advance. right NOW, theyre worthless to have in SWTOR. in 1 year from now, they'll be needed.

 

Battle logs however are needed at the start of the end-game as soon as you reach 50. I need to understand what a good rotation is as a dps or tank to be better at it. hat said, most if not all encounters are still in their infancy even at 50 so its not going to destroy the game by not having logs right at this moment.

 

Some people min max extremes, ive done those types of guilds and runs, some are chilled back and so long as you're decent and dont hit the keyboard with your face, are more than pleased to have you for some casual fun.

 

this is mostly a guild centric choice.

[IreScath]

I'm writing down all the names of people I see hating on damage meters... clearly the type that are lazy, dont wanna focus 100% all the time with intensity... Or are bad... Or want to dps with a spec/class that has no business doing so.

 

Get out of ma raid leeches.

[Chaffery]

Do you know how it will be? Meter haters start forming their own guilds, they start doing stuff together.

Then one day some one suggests, "hey let's try raid", their sorry butts get spread all over floor buy boss.

Afterwards they start thinking that something must be wrong, until some one wakes up "hey, we have damage meter and combat log, let's analyse"

Or if meter hater is in to PVP and get ***** buy other more skilled players, he will go very quickly after DPS meter, combat log and rotations.

Natural evolution from monkey to human. It is been happening so many times, over and over again.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Chaffery

[weezdajuice]

Do you know how it will be? Meter haters start forming their own guilds, they start doing stuff together.

Then one day some one suggests, "hey let's try raid", their sorry butts get spread all over floor buy boss.

Afterwards they start thinking that something must be wrong, until some one wakes up "hey, we have damage meter and combat log, let's analyse"

Natural evolution from monkey to human. It is been happening so many times, over and over again.

 

You're stretching the truth quite a bit

 

Damage Meters are like air conditioning. You don't really NEED it, but its nice to have.

[Chaffery]

You're stretching the truth quite a bit

 

Damage Meters are like air conditioning. You don't really NEED it, but its nice to have.

You will get there one day, trust me. Unless you want suck forever.

[OSUNightfall]

Or because elitist jerks cry and whine when they're being out dps'ed? Or that they spam the log? Or they pop off to other players?

 

I lead my own groups; you pop off about damage meters/insult another player, and you're getting the boot, you can cry and whine in someone else's operation.

 

I totally agree with this second part. Pop off about meters, post meters in chat, insult someone, and you're kicked. I still endorse and use DPS parsers.

 

What really probably led to people being kicked for poor dps was enrage timers. Suddenly DPS had to actually perform rather than yawning their way through a fifteen minute fight. I'm fine with this; as a tank and healer, we've never been able to sail through any mmo. We have to know our class, know our role, and perform. This just brought parity.

 

Removing people from groups isn't about elitism, it's about separating those who can do the content from those who can't, then dealing with it (either by having them leave the group, or working with them to improve.) In WotLK we were fighting a boss who, based on his enrage timer and hit points, each dps *had* to do 5.6k dps or *you could not defeat the raid.* People can talk about DPS isn't everything and skill trumps all till they're blue in the face, but it doesn't change that fact. When we kept wiping on the boss, we looked at the logs, noticed two DPS were doing about half that, talked to them and tried one more time, then thanked them for their time and explained why they couldn't currently complete the raid. That's not elitism, it's realizing that one or two people who haven't done their homework before-hand don't have the right to penalize 8 other people by causing them to fail over and over.

Edited December 29, 2011 by OSUNightfall

[ferroz]

Removing people from groups isn't about elitism, it's about separating those who can do the content from those who can't, then dealing with it (either by having them leave the group, or working with them to improve.)

That's ... elitism. Polite elitism perhaps, but elitism all the same.

 

In WotLK we were fighting a boss who, based on his enrage timer and hit points, each dps *had* to do 5.6k dps or *you could not defeat the raid.*

Actually, the dps had to average that.... so if you had a couple of people 7k you could have gotten away with someone doing 2k.

[VallorFleetfoot]

I remember raiding in a top guild in EQ. I joined at the end of Kunark when we were still trying to make keys for everyone for Veshaan's peak.

 

Trakanon was a real pain, but we learned the fight and got him down to farm status pretty quick.

 

Then came Velious. Once again there were some tough fights, but we prevailed and became the douchebag guild that woke the sleeper and denied everyone else on the server barbarian masks and primal weapons forever. We even did the the retarded Plane of Mischief.

 

Then came Luclin. The fights got harder and had even more gimicks. As an enchanter on the Emporer Shishrah fight I spent an hour casting mez on one of his guards, then sitting down to meditate only to stand up just before the spell wore off. Then I'd cast it again, sit to med, and so on (yes, I had the boring part). I we didn't do our job then the guard would wreck havoc and wipe the raid.

 

Other enchanters were doing the same to other guards and the non CC-able guards were off tanked and mobs had to be moved, and replacement players had to be dynamically swapped (mutiple tank swaps, main healer swaps, enchanter swaps, necromancer (mana batteries!) that all had to be done flawlessly) to keep the well oiled machine running during that fight.

 

Pray to god that the spell wasn't resisted, but if it was we had the coordination that an off-tank would pick up the mob until my cooldown was up or another enchanter could pick the mob up.

 

I don't even want to talk about Vex'thal.

 

But, before you knew it, this stuff was on farm too.

 

I finally quit playing during the Planes of Power expansion and went full time to DAoC until WoW came out, but even up to the point I quit my guild was downing the toughest end-game content and putting it on farm on a regular basis.

 

Since then end-game fights have boiled down more to gimmicks rather than the logistics of making sure 30 - 75 people were all doing their best for long periods of time (fights can't last too long due to limited number of raiders and no complete heal spell) but at the end of the day the overall difficulty hasn't changed.

 

Yet somehow success was found without the all-powerful information derived from the crutch of damage meters.

 

IMO:

• Damage meters make people lazy.
  
• They help trivialize content faster than necessary.
  
• They sow the seeds of discrimination among the playerbase.
  
• They open up yet another avenue for d-bags in groups who continuously spam chat with their DPS stats and denigrate the other team members.
  
• The arguments FOR damage meters bring out a slew of people who claim they would only use them for altruistic reasons when a vast majority of them are only saying those things.
  
• They help dumb down the player base and destroy a sense of community because it becomes easy to check out elitestjerks.com and mime optimal rotations and gear choices, etc rather than ask players on their servers and creating a culture of mentorship.
  
• They create a vicious cycle between the devs spending a greater amount of time trying to create content to satisfy the top 1% who will spend more time analyzing the content than playing it rather than content that will be consumable by the other 99% during the time when the content is fresh rather than the sloppy seconds of the raiding guilds.
  

 

 

TL;DR:

The real raiding guilds will manage to down content and put it on farm with or without damage meters. I think it is much more satisfying to do so when you have that breakthrough that leads to the bosses defeat through observation of the fight during the fight than some post-game spreadsheet analysis.

 

Learning to trust people because they've proven time and time again that they are reliable rather than looking at some numbers and using those to decide the quality of the player creates much stronger relationships.

 

Sure, it's only my opinion, but it's one tempered in the fire of a decade of end game raiding.

Edited December 29, 2011 by VallorFleetfoot

[OSUNightfall]

That's ... elitism. Polite elitism perhaps, but elitism all the same.

 

Actually, the dps had to average that.... so if you had a couple of people 7k you could have gotten away with someone doing 2k.

 

Please don't throw around words without knowing what they mean.

 

Elitism

1. practice of or belief in rule by an elite.

2. consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group.

 

I don't think I'm any better than anyone else because I can do 10k dps when I'm trying to burn down a target, and that's the key. To think my DPS made me a better person than someone else would be elitism. I do think I'm a better player in that situation than someone doing 2k dps who is similarly geared, but that's a simple fact. It has nothing to do with elitism. If you want to go on a raid, you need to be able to do your share in the raid. It's that simple. It's unfair and entitled to expect the other 8 people in the raid to just carry you.

 

Your second point is correct, and we accounted for that. Obviously the rest of the group wasn't doing *exactly* 5.6k dps, but even taking into account tank dps and people doing more than 5.6k, it wasn't possible to make up for the two under-performers.

 

The interesting thing is, DPS meters or no, this event wouldn't have been changed. If you're keeping your entire group from succeeding because you're not pulling your weight, you will be dealt with, either gently or un-gently. The only thing that changes is how easy it is to identify you as the problem. Some will be nice and try to help, some will just kick you, but meters make exactly 0% difference in how that's going to play out.

Edited December 29, 2011 by OSUNightfall

[Mephane]

Actually, the dps had to average that.... so if you had a couple of people 7k you could have gotten away with someone doing 2k.

 

Yeah, but the funny thing about elitism - it judges who is "better" or "worse" than the others, it doesn't care about overall group performance. That's why people still in blue gear got kicked from heroic groups in WoW when the other players were deep purple and just rushing through for badges, the very thought that someone not bringing the same "performance" should still "deserve" anything from that run could never reach their minds.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Mephane

[OSUNightfall]

• Damage meters make people lazy.
  Wanting access to clear and concise information that you could obtain with a pencil and paper and way too much time on your hands isn't laziness, it's efficiency.
  
  
• They help trivialize content faster than necessary.
  Probably true, as a side effect of helping people play at their best.
   
  
• They sow the seeds of discrimination among the playerbase.
  Jerks are out there one way or the other. If you want to avoid jerks of all kinds, get into a guild or play with people you know. This hasn't changed in 15 years of MMOs.
   
  
• They open up yet another avenue for d-bags in groups who continuously spam chat with their DPS stats and denigrate the other team members.
  Either form your own groups and kick these people or group with people who will. That is your right.
   
  
• The arguments FOR damage meters bring out a slew of people who claim they would only use them for altruistic reasons when a vast majority of them are only saying those things.
  Pure speculation, and essentially calling a great many people liars to their face.
   
  
• They help dumb down the player base and destroy a sense of community because it becomes easy to check out elitestjerks.com and mime optimal rotations and gear choices, etc rather than ask players on their servers and creating a culture of mentorship.
  This will happen with or without meters. It just takes longer.
   
  
• They create a vicious cycle between the devs spending a greater amount of time trying to create content to satisfy the top 1% who will spend more time analyzing the content than playing it rather than content that will be consumable by the other 99% during the time when the content is fresh rather than the sloppy seconds of the raiding guilds.
  See the above point.
  

 

To close, man I am happy that this issue is settled and we'll be getting a combat log. Sorry everyone else, the devs seem to think you're on the wrong side of this issue.

[OSUNightfall]

Yeah, but the funny thing about elitism - it judges who is "better" or "worse" than the others, it doesn't care about overall group performance. That's why people still in blue gear got kicked from heroic groups in WoW when the other players were deep purple and just rushing through for badges, the very thought that someone not bringing the same "performance" should still "deserve" anything from that run could never reach their minds.

 

If we *had* enough DPS that we could carry these guys we wouldn't have cared. This only becomes a problem once a few players are literally stopping everyone else from succeeding through their poor play.