Combat Logs are coming! Damage meters & analysis soon to follow!

[AHierophant]

That's not a logical conclusion. I honestly don't see how you got from A to B there.

 

 

 

I don't want to reform people who don't learn. If they have a bad attitude about their low DPS, I want them gone from the group and replaced.

 

Yet you use a relative term "low" which can mean 3877 is "low" compared to 3880. See how this takes off? You personally may only try to reform people who are way off the mark, but there are legions of people wanting to "fix" your statistically-irrelevant difference. When you politely refuse, they do what you just did: get rid of them OMG so bad worse thing ever to have in my group.

[AHierophant]

This is silly. There's no way people are talking to you about your playstyle all the time.

 

I wouldn't feel so strongly about it were that the case.

 

It's often enough that I got tired of it. At first people generally left it go at "no thanks" but over time they got more zealous in their purge, until the point I had people raging at me because I was being a "a noob who likes to remain bad."

[rzrknight]

Yea I'll be sure not to use those and to stay away from the guilds that require you to have them. Thanks but no thanks.

 

Dont worry , when they see you under perfom cause you never watch the damage you do and make a good rotation , even if you have skill , they will not want to play with you also.

 

The point is , some people want to play with other people who put time in getting the best they can , others simple want to play casual , that is right , it is their right , wanting the people that max everything to carry them later is what they dont have the right.

[Caelrie]

Yet you use a relative term "low" which can mean 3877 is "low" compared to 3880. See how this takes off? You personally may only try to reform people who are way off the mark, but there are legions of people wanting to "fix" your statistically-irrelevant difference. When you politely refuse, they do what you just did: get rid of them OMG so bad worse thing ever to have in my group.

 

Nobody is going to complain about you doing 1% less DPS than someone else. Do you have a real argument here somewhere?

[Ituhata]

That just isn't true. A class gets BETTER for me when I start playing it to its maximum potential and seeing what I can do with it. My playstyle is different than yours, and you could sure stand to learn a little tolerance.

 

So you'll wear awful looking gear and pidgeonhole yourself into a narrow spec for fun? And would you even continue to play a class that is deemed by the community to be woefully underpowered? Or would you switch to perform your best?

 

I suppose I should start believing politicians look out for the good of the people as well.

[Caelrie]

I wouldn't feel so strongly about it were that the case.

 

It's often enough that I got tired of it. At first people generally left it go at "no thanks" but over time they got more zealous in their purge, until the point I had people raging at me because I was being a "a noob who likes to remain bad."

 

If you're doing so badly at your class that EVERYONE tries to correct you, maybe you shouldn't be joining PUGs.

[Caelrie]

So you'll wear awful looking gear and pidgeonhole yourself into a narrow spec for fun? And would you even continue to play a class that is deemed by the community to be woefully underpowered? Or would you switch to perform your best?

 

I suppose I should start believing politicians look out for the good of the people as well.

 

Rerolling for FOTM is pointless, since next month it'll be something different.

[Ituhata]

Rerolling for FOTM is pointless, since next month it'll be something different.

 

I can respect that as a loyal druid. But there are no guarantees that Bioware will bend to the will of those calling for nerfs or buffs, so there may not be a FOTM club.

[Xfraze]

Not sure if anyone else has said this yet...but Bioware adding in Combat Logs does not mean they are adding in a DPS meter. Sure, the logs will be available, and they might even be exportable...but all I've gotten out of everything they've said on the subject so far is that they will be adding Combat Logs. Seeing as how there are no user addons for the game at this point in time, and possibly never will be (customizable UI does not equal user addons, people just like to think it does), we may get our combat logs pretty soon but will have to wait a bit longer for Bioware to implement a DPS meter.

 

In either case. I agree with everyone who says that these things are necessary. It'd be great if they added a threat generation meter either. I ran an instance with another tank and kept having him out threat me.

 

Having the ability to know what I was doing wrong and finding solid rotation to ensure that in the future I can keep groups alive as long as possible would be amazing. People can say stuff like "Pay attention" or "Don't be bad", but without seeing hard data, it's kinda hard to know what's going on. For instance, what ability did he use? Was he just taunting the mobs off me and claiming he wasn't? Do his abilities output more damage?

 

Similarly, if I was DPS, I'd like to know what I was doing wrong in the damage department if that's the role I was assigned to in a group. Sure there are plenty of encounters where your DPS might suffer because instead of just focusing on a single target and wailing away you have to clean up adds...and sometimes DPS is inflated from doing AOE damage to multiple enemies.

 

Either way, as others have said, it's not the data that cause people to be prigs. Someone will be a prig with or without the DPS meter. The only thing I can say to that is don't group with those individuals.

[evil_bender]

I don't want to rebuff every skill inquisitor out there any more than I want to tell every Democrat "no" to switching parties. It becomes a tedious and tiresome routine of constantly having people trying to modify your behavior because they think X is the only way to go. Especially when they have no personal experience in grouping with me and assume I am a wayward soul that needs their divine touch.

 

Wow your whole contribution to this thread needs to be submitted to a psychologist.

 

People are trying to help you because there is a MATHEMATICALLY proven BEST way to do things, and you are pretty much telling them "lol no this way is best cause of the funzors I has" Then you demand they group with you, they assume you're just new and try to teach you, and you probably yell at them and call them elitist jerks. Then you get kicked, and somehow you end up blaming the dps meter, liek 'damn if they weren't able to see my dps I wouldn't have been kicked, damn meters'

 

RPGs are about numbers, its a number based combat system, when you have numbers, you have math. When you have math, there is a right way and a wrong way. If you want to go pretend your a jedi and have fun and just make **** up as you go along, go LARP. Just don't tell me and everyone else here that we aren't allowed to see the math behind the game, because someone once hurt your precious feelings because you were being a bad.

[Caelrie]

I can respect that as a loyal druid. But there are no guarantees that Bioware will bend to the will of those calling for nerfs or buffs, so there may not be a FOTM club.

 

Bioware has already done countless nerfs and buffs throughout the beta.

[Caelrie]

Not sure if anyone else has said this yet...but Bioware adding in Combat Logs does not mean they are adding in a DPS meter. Sure, the logs will be available, and they might even be exportable...but all I've gotten out of everything they've said on the subject so far is that they will be adding Combat Logs. Seeing as how there are no user addons for the game at this point in time, and possibly never will be (customizable UI does not equal user addons, people just like to think it does), we may get our combat logs pretty soon but will have to wait a bit longer for Bioware to implement a DPS meter.

Bioware doesn't need to add a meter, and would probably prefer that players do it anyway since it's a pretty intensive job. The players will handle it. Recount if addons are allowed, ACT if they're not.

[xioix]

You can keep your damage meters and combat logs.

 

why are you so afraid of seeing your dps numbers? hiding something?

[Xfraze]

Bioware doesn't need to add a meter, and would probably prefer that players do it anyway since it's a pretty intensive job. The players will handle it. Recount if addons are allowed, ACT if they're not.

 

ACT is what I imagine we'll be using at first which IMO is just fine for raids. It's nice being able to see what's going on in game, but I always liked the way ACT presented the information. Not to mention you could input multiple combat logs so there were multiple points of reference for the data to calculate.

 

What a lot of people on the "NO DPS METER PLZKTHNXBAI" side seem to be against is just that, in game DPS meters. As it currently stands, I don't think they'll have to worry about that for a while longer. They'll probably make their way into the game eventually though.

[SinRMcSinR]

You can keep your damage meters and combat logs.

 

^ agreed

 

 

Damage meters lead to elitist ******es spamming them after every AOE pull

 

 

We don't need damage meters, why don't we just use the old fashioned method of determining DPS

 

1) Is everyone alive?

 

YES - Go to 2

NO - Step it up healers

 

2) is the boss dead?

 

YES - Congratulations!

NO - You must have reset it somehow. Try again and don't fail at resetting the boss

[AHierophant]

Wow your whole contribution to this thread needs to be submitted to a psychologist.

 

People are trying to help you because there is a MATHEMATICALLY proven BEST way to do things, and you are pretty much telling them "lol no this way is best cause of the funzors I has" Then you demand they group with you, they assume you're just new and try to teach you, and you probably yell at them and call them elitist jerks. Then you get kicked, and somehow you end up blaming the dps meter, liek 'damn if they weren't able to see my dps I wouldn't have been kicked, damn meters'

 

RPGs are about numbers, its a number based combat system, when you have numbers, you have math. When you have math, there is a right way and a wrong way. If you want to go pretend your a jedi and have fun and just make **** up as you go along, go LARP. Just don't tell me and everyone else here that we aren't allowed to see the math behind the game, because someone once hurt your precious feelings because you were being a bad.

 

Hyperbole garbage. Not even worth responding to beyond a casual (pun intended) slap down of this fiction.

[squiek]

One step closer to WoW, one step closer to fail.

[Seksi]

Terrible idea.

 

I propose casual servers to stay away from these elitists.

[Battyone]

^ agreed

 

 

Damage meters lead to elitist ******es spamming them after every AOE pull

 

 

We don't need damage meters, why don't we just use the old fashioned method of determining DPS

 

1) Is everyone alive?

 

YES - Go to 2

NO - Step it up healers

 

2) is the boss dead?

 

YES - Congratulations!

NO - You must have reset it somehow. Try again and don't fail at resetting the boss

 

Problem with your answer to scenario 1:

 

DPS/Healer/etc died to excessive avoidable damage, do we blame the healer or do we look at the combat log to see how everyone died, and correct that instead? People who default to blaming the healer on a wipe grind my gears even worse than people who spam meters and stand in fire.

 

Problem with your answer to scenario 2:

 

It does not account for tightly tuned DPS race fights at the end game raid level. It may apply to 4mans and normal mode raiding, but in hard/nightmare especially with first kills every little bit will count towards beating the enrage. It's not like every boss is a trivial tank and spank.

 

Your entire post seems relevant for 4man non hardmode dungeons. So uhhhh good for that? There's more to PvE then that though, and these tools are not for 4mans in any regard where it's easy to see what's going wrong. It's for hectic 16 man operations on nightmare mode where there is tons out outgoing damage, large hitpools on bosses, complex mechanics, and etc where on the fly adjustment/review may be impossible and combat logs can help determine what is going wrong so that the raid leader(s) can fix it.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Battyone

[warkat]

you would have though 135 million dollars would have bought some mods at launch but i guess not.

[Zenkutsu]

Does this mean we'll soon have a 'right' way to play each class? Whoop de doo. The elitists that other game win the day.

[laparkuh]

^ agreed

 

 

Damage meters lead to elitist ******es spamming them after every AOE pull

 

 

We don't need damage meters, why don't we just use the old fashioned method of determining DPS

 

1) Is everyone alive?

 

YES - Go to 2

NO - Step it up healers

 

2) is the boss dead?

 

YES - Congratulations!

NO - You must have reset it somehow. Try again and don't fail at resetting the boss

 

 

So what happens on wipe 6 or 7? You can't say "maybe I can try this spec for more DPS or more HPS" because you simply don't know unless you've run the numbers. And if you don't like combat logs chances are you aren't going to go through that much effort and the group will just disband and never beat that boss. Then they'll come to the forums demanding "BOSS A" gets nerfed.

[Battyone]

Does this mean we'll soon have a 'right' way to play each class? Whoop de doo. The elitists that other game win the day.

 

No, but since you can't see past your bad experiences in PUG finder I assume that's going to be what this is for you. Because someone pooped on your parade serious guilds should be denied the tools they use to improve and learn better? It all comes down to the community and just like how meters were okay before cross server dungeon finder, you need to remember that when you are just on your server base people will begin to develop reputations, either good or bad, and that will help keep people in check.

[Liberate]

To play a game where you're forced into a spec to appease the controlling personality types.

 

Glad I am a tank.

[Syluar]

I don't get all the complains about how bad combat log and demage meters that follow it are.

In my opinion there are only pros for having combat log statistics and no cons. Why you ask?

The reasoning most people are making here is that people are jerks about dps in raids (it mostly affects pugs) but if pug leader can't decide which information in log is usefull he is not a person to raid to begin with.

There was also a point that demage meters make people set certain conditions like "if you dont have X dps we won't invite you". If the amount given is too high it again means raid leader is stupid and he's not someone to deal with. But the knowledge of how much hp boss (+adds if there are any) have and what is enrage timer gives you the minimum dps needed to kill the boss. So the minimal dps barrier is actualy usefull to know wheter you have any chance of succeeding or you need to take a step back and gear up more/improve your rotation.

Why people think that carrying them is ok if they lack like 1/4 of the minimal dps? Keep in mind that raiding is indeed team work and you are not playing just for yourself but by having poor performance you are wasting time of 15 different people not just yours.

Also last opinion there is only one way to determine good performence "did the group succeed or not". Absolutly agree! However there is always "but"... When you succeed then there is simply no problem - you're golden. But problems begin when group does not succed. Over and over again... It's never problem of whole group screwing up but single persons. Some situations you can tell without combat log who is failing and why, but if you fail constantly due to hiting enrage timer by seconds you cannot tell without demage matter if that is problem of group not ready yet to kill that boss or maybe there is just one or two people that are doing half of others dps.

Like someone said that he likes having his own ratations and theese tolls force you do certain rotation or you are considered slowing the group down. It is true that dpsmeters eventualy do that but why is it bad thing? If you want to play the way you want to then do so but not in raids! Again you are not playing by yourself and you are wasting others time only because you "dont like to be forced to do X rotation". If your not standard rotation/build is still doing enough dps (that is above the minimal I mentioned) noone should have problems with you doing so because the conceivable failure is of a different matter that dps. Just don't be selfish guys!

If you still don't understand why combat log helps to improve performance you clearly did not realy raid but you only thought so. People being idiots about demage matters in pugs would be idiots regardless and playing with them would result in failure either way. Combat log shows you what happened on the way however.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Syluar