No Love for Windu

[Wolfninjajedi]

You seem to have completely misinterpreted the quote:

 

Originally the reality was that Mace overpowered Palpatine, fair and square. But Lucas changed that so Sidious was feigning weakness in order to turn Anakin to the dark side by making Windu look the aggressor.

 

That seems to make way more sense anyway.

[Girdeux]

You seem to have completely misinterpreted the quote:

 

Originally the reality was that Mace overpowered Palpatine, fair and square. But Lucas changed that so Sidious was feigning weakness in order to turn Anakin to the dark side by making Windu look the aggressor.

 

He pretended because he knew he was losing fair and square. As this says. "These close up shots where Palpatine is getting the force lightning reflected back and he’s getting zapped, and the strain of all this exertion is what’s transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi...".

 

What your doing is twisting the quote. You forgot to bold the best bits with Sidious TRYING to kill Windu, and couldnt.

 

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

Edited June 29, 2013 by Girdeux

[Beniboybling]

and ..........no.

 

"These close up shots where Palpatine is getting the force lightning reflected back and he’s getting zapped, and the strain of all this exertion is what’s transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi..."

Your point being? It did 'transform' him into the Emperor so to speak, but the dark side corruption was there already. This is quite obvious as lightning would have not have changed the color of his skin, caused red rims to appear around his eyes, and turn his eyes yellow.

 

Gary. M Salri from Wizards of Coast, Star Wars Role Playing Game etc. explained this:

 

"There are problems with both these ideas: The idea that he was physically damaged by the Force lightning doesn't match Return of the Jedi. Luke was being hit by Force lightning for some time, and he wasn't scarred like that. On the other hand, if Palpatine was using an Illusion-assisted Disguised check… he couldn't possibly keep it up continually. Moreover, Illusion is a mind-influencing Force power. It doesn't work on droids or recordings (in other words, someone might notice that he doesn't look the same in recorded speeches), nor would it work when projecting a holographic image across the galaxy. Finally, one would wonder why he maintained the illusion in his earlier holographic appearances as Darth Sidious. It would seem more prudent to "turn it off" to preserve the Palpatine identity."

 

"Palpatine, who has delved extensively into Sith lore, was using an almost-forgotten technique to hide his true self."

 

This 'technique' is called 'mask' and is demonstrated in a short story called Sithisis in which Sidious clearly disfigured and corrupted undergoes a Sith ritual, and then emerges as Chancellor Palpatine with no such disfigurement. I think people take Lucas' vague descriptions of events a little too literally sometimes.

[Girdeux]

Your point being? It did 'transform' him into the Emperor so to speak, but the dark side corruption was there already. This is quite obvious as lightning would have not have changed the color of his skin, caused red rims to appear around his eyes, and turn his eyes yellow.

 

Gary. M Salri from Wizards of Coast, Star Wars Role Playing Game etc. explained this:

 

"There are problems with both these ideas: The idea that he was physically damaged by the Force lightning doesn't match Return of the Jedi. Luke was being hit by Force lightning for some time, and he wasn't scarred like that. On the other hand, if Palpatine was using an Illusion-assisted Disguised check… he couldn't possibly keep it up continually. Moreover, Illusion is a mind-influencing Force power. It doesn't work on droids or recordings (in other words, someone might notice that he doesn't look the same in recorded speeches), nor would it work when projecting a holographic image across the galaxy. Finally, one would wonder why he maintained the illusion in his earlier holographic appearances as Darth Sidious. It would seem more prudent to "turn it off" to preserve the Palpatine identity."

 

"Palpatine, who has delved extensively into Sith lore, was using an almost-forgotten technique to hide his true self."

 

This 'technique' is called 'mask' and is demonstrated in a short story called Sithisis in which Sidious clearly disfigured and corrupted undergoes a Sith ritual, and then emerges as Chancellor Palpatine with no such disfigurement. I think people take Lucas' vague descriptions of events a little too literally sometimes.

 

Lucas> Some random dude. Doesnt matter what he says. What people dont get is, none of the ridiculous force powers we see in the EU exist in the movie continuity.

 

And lightning doesnt do that to skin? Clearly his skin melting off and heating up didnt really happen at all....mustve all been an illusion . Luke wasnt struck directly in the face.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Girdeux

[Aurbere]

Judging from both the novel, the movie, and Lucas quotes, I draw the following conclusion.

 

Mace Windu and Palpatine engage one another in pure lightsaber combat. Mace Windu fully falls into Vaapad, causing a stalemate between the two. As the duel moves to the broken window, Sidious projects Anakin's fear, causing Mace Windu to see the shatterpoint. He then forces Sidious to divert his energy to steel himself against the wind currents out side of the office. Mace disarms Sidious before Anakin enters, who sees a disarmed old man against a Jedi Master.

 

Then he feings weakness to push Anakin further to the Dark Side.

 

Judge it as you will.

 

Also, it is confirmed in Episode III Visual Dictionary that Sidious was using a Dark Side mask.

[Beniboybling]

He pretended because he knew he was losing fair and square. As this says. "These close up shots where Palpatine is getting the force lightning reflected back and he’s getting zapped, and the strain of all this exertion is what’s transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi...".

 

What your doing is twisting the quote. You forgot to bold the best bits with Sidious TRYING to kill Windu, and couldnt.

 

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

Where does it say he couldn't? It doesn't. And Lucas by saying 'where he pretends to lose his power and be weak' heavily implies that if he gave it his all, he could.

 

Your second quote I'm afraid doesn't prove anything. Compete and defeat and entirely different things.

[Beniboybling]

Lucas> Some random dude. Doesnt matter what he says. What people dont get is, none of the ridiculous force powers we see in the EU exist in the movie continuity.

 

And lightning doesnt do that to skin? Clearly his skin melting off and heating up didnt really happen at all....mustve all been an illusion

Lucas' quote does not directly contradict this in anyway. The lighting did transform Sidious did it not? By dispelling the ritual. And please show me some evidence in Star Wars lore that indicates that being subject to Force lightning causes dark side corruption. You will find none.

 

Sidious' face shows no signs of 'heating up' - melting yes - but what does that show? It shows that his sith alchemy induced visage was literally melted away. Or I we to assume that after 60 years of study in the dark side Sidious recieved no form of dark side corruption whatsoever? Because that is what you are suggesting.

[Girdeux]

Where does it say he couldn't? It doesn't. And Lucas by saying 'where he pretends to lose his power and be weak' heavily implies that if he gave it his all, he could.

 

Your second quote I'm afraid doesn't prove anything. Compete and defeat and entirely different things.

 

It says it right here.

 

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand."

 

I still dont understand how people think palpatine was acting LOL.

[Girdeux]

Lucas' quote does not directly contradict this in anyway. The lighting did transform Sidious did it not? By dispelling the ritual. And please show me some evidence in Star Wars lore that indicates that being subject to Force lightning causes dark side corruption. You will find none.

 

Sidious' face shows no signs of 'heating up' - melting yes - but what does that show? It shows that his sith alchemy induced visage was literally melted away. Or I we to assume that after 60 years of study in the dark side Sidious recieved no form of dark side corruption whatsoever? Because that is what you are suggesting.

 

There was heating up, all the smoke. Show me any indication that the EU powers you suggest are in movie continuity? You wont find any. That stuff doesn't exist in the Lucas-verse so stop trying to suggest it does.

[Beniboybling]

Judging from both the novel, the movie, and Lucas quotes, I draw the following conclusion.

 

Mace Windu and Palpatine engage one another in pure lightsaber combat. Mace Windu fully falls into Vaapad, causing a stalemate between the two. As the duel moves to the broken window, Sidious projects Anakin's fear, causing Mace Windu to see the shatterpoint. He then forces Sidious to divert his energy to steel himself against the wind currents out side of the office. Mace disarms Sidious before Anakin enters, who sees a disarmed old man against a Jedi Master.

 

Then he feings weakness to push Anakin further to the Dark Side.

 

Judge it as you will.

 

Also, it is confirmed in Episode III Visual Dictionary that Sidious was using a Dark Side mask.

Well that's very objective of you. Because you basically just recounted what happened.

 

Clearly Windu pushed Sidious to the ledge, and that led to Sidious being overpowered. This much is made clear in the novel, the movie and by George Lucas. But nowhere does George Lucas make a statement that contradicts the notion that Sidious allowed himself to be pushed to the edge. He was still giving it his all, and was still overpowered, but he allowed Windu to gain the tactical advantage.

[Aurbere]

Well that's very objective of you. Because you basically just recounted what happened.

 

Clearly Windu pushed Sidious to the ledge, and that led to Sidious being overpowered. This much is made clear in the novel, the movie and by George Lucas. But nowhere does George Lucas make a statement that contradicts the notion that Sidious allowed himself to be pushed to the edge. He was still giving it his all, and was still overpowered, but he allowed Windu to gain the tactical advantage.

 

I do what I do. Whether it contributes something new to the discussion or not it irrelevant.

[Beniboybling]

It says it right here.

 

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand."

 

I still dont understand how people think palpatine was acting LOL.

I see the word 'try' that is all, not 'couldn't'. It does not read, "and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, which he just couldn't do" or something to that effect.

 

I'll give you to reasons why people think Palpatine was acting.

 

1. George Lucas says so himself: "...this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak." Pretend is a synonym for 'act'.

 

2. It is

 

You can 'LOL' all you like but I'm afraid that won't change the facts.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Girdeux]

I see the word 'try' that is all, not 'couldn't'. It does not read, "and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, which he just couldn't do" or something to that effect.

 

I'll give you to reasons why people think Palpatine was acting.

 

1. George Lucas says so himself: "...this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak." Pretend is a synonym for 'act'.

 

2. It is

 

The facts are Palpatine was losing the fight and needed Anakins help, thats all there is to it.

[Aurbere]

I see the word 'try' that is all, not 'couldn't'. It does not read, "and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, which he just couldn't do" or something to that effect.

 

I'll give you to reasons why people think Palpatine was acting.

 

1. George Lucas says so himself: "...this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak." Pretend is a synonym for 'act'.

 

2. It is

 

I think the two of you have mistaken each other.

 

Two things are very obvious in the duel.

 

1. Palpatine was giving his all during the duel.

 

2. In the presence of Anakin, Palpatine pretends to be weak.

 

Both of these are obvious, and it seems the two of you have mistaken each other.

[Beniboybling]

The facts are Palpatine was losing the fight and needed Anakins help, thats all there is to it.

I think the two of you have mistaken each other.

is all I have to say. Edited June 29, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Girdeux]

I think the two of you have mistaken each other.

 

Two things are very obvious in the duel.

 

1. Palpatine was giving his all during the duel.

 

2. In the presence of Anakin, Palpatine pretends to be weak.

 

Both of these are obvious, and it seems the two of you have mistaken each other.

 

I think it comes down to us having 2 different opinions. Mine being I think Windu could beat Palpatine, his being Palpatine can beat windu.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I think it comes down to us having 2 different opinions. Mine being I think Windu could beat Palpatine, his being Palpatine can beat windu.

 

Palpatine could have if he decided to actually use his full abilities, instead of it just being a saber duel.

[Aurbere]

is all I have to say.

 

Classic Palpatine. That's one of my favorite scenes in all of Star Wars.

[Girdeux]

Palpatine could have if he decided to actually use his full abilities, instead of it just being a saber duel.

 

And this is where our opinions differ.

[Beniboybling]

Classic Palpatine. That's one of my favorite scenes in all of Star Wars.

Doesn't beat

one though. Oh Palpatine, you craaazy Sith.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Doesn't beat

one though. Oh Palpatine, you craaazy Sith.

 

He is the Master of the Darkside and Master Troll. Obi-Wan's Trollsu would have no effect on him.

[Aurbere]

Doesn't beat

one though. Oh Palpatine, you craaazy Sith.

 

Well, I was speaking of the whole Death Star scene up until the lightsaber duel, though that's a good battle as well.

[tunewalker]

Well, I was speaking of the whole Death Star scene up until the lightsaber duel, though that's a good battle as well.

 

Ya might as well just say the whole death star II scene..... you know what **** it The whole Climax to RotJ cus the space battle was bad *** to best space battle in all of the movies.

[Aurbere]

Ya might as well just say the whole death star II scene..... you know what **** it The whole Climax to RotJ cus the space battle was bad *** to best space battle in all of the movies.

 

Yeah, ROTJ doesn't get enough credit, imo. The space battle was epic, the Death Star battle was epic, and the land battle was... well less epic in comparison, but still epic.

 

Great movie. One of my favorite movies.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Ya might as well just say the whole death star II scene..... you know what **** it The whole Climax to RotJ cus the space battle was bad *** to best space battle in all of the movies.

 

Poor Arvel Crynyd...went out like a boss though, he took the SSD and everyone on it with him!