Worst AC in 2.2? Assassin/Shadow.

[jasonthelamb]

Guard and VG tank CDs are comparatively stronger for DPS characters than the Shadow ones (Saber Ward has the same duration and the added bonus of F/T DR, which makes it better than Deflection for short burst CD use; Reactive Shield provides 25% DR, which, on a DPS VG, is going to provide a *crapton* of survivability for a longer duration than either Deflection or Saber Ward) and Shadows are *way* more reliant upon tank gear than Guardians or VGs thanks to the massive amount of DR required, not to mentioned that it's, honestly, easier for a VG or Guardian to swap to tank stance than a Shadow: swapping Techniques for a Shadow costs 100 Force (so you have to be full and it bottoms you out) whereas, for a Guardian, it costs nothing but bottoms you out (and, with Sundering Strike and Combat Focus, you can actually spike back to all the resources you need relatively easily and quickly), and, for a VG, the only "cost" is a 1.5 sec cast time (the others still cost 1 GCD to use, so the only loss is that the VG can't be running while doing it).

 

Shadows bring the utility of stealth rez, but, for emergency tank swapping, Guardians and VGs definitely have Shadows beat. Of course, in my experience, emergency tank swapping is next to useless (other than eating a single attack that does a debuff, which only really happened on Firebrand).

 

 

Yeah, if a Shadow/Assassin isn't specced into tanking, it can get ugly - with a Jugg, the heavy armor is usually enough, I've "emergency tanked" EC HM Kephess, TfB HM Kelsara, and TfB HM Kephess

[GeckoOBac]

Yeah, if a Shadow/Assassin isn't specced into tanking, it can get ugly - with a Jugg, the heavy armor is usually enough, I've "emergency tanked" EC HM Kephess, TfB HM Kelsara, and TfB HM Kephess

 

So did our shadow. Really, those are "oh crap" moments anyway.

[XantosCledwin]

For what its worth my raid group downed NiM Dread Guards tonight with myself dpsing on my shadow in Balance spec. So to say that we have no spot in NiM OPS is just completely wrong.

 

Click

 

You realize you are showing that to us in your legacies achievements, while you yourself are on Cerrick Station and not in the Nightmare Mode itself standing over their corpses. So your credibility is a little suspect. Your achievements could have been unlocked using any character on your account. Meaning that you could have done it on a 55 Jedi Sentinel for all the good that screen shot does us.

[mmerry]

You realize you are showing that to us in your legacies achievements, while you yourself are on Cerrick Station and not in the Nightmare Mode itself standing over their corpses. So your credibility is a little suspect. Your achievements could have been unlocked using any character on your account. Meaning that you could have done it on a 55 Jedi Sentinel for all the good that screen shot does us.

 

Ok then... third from the left kneeling down over kelsaras body. screenshot of kill

 

 

Also.. video of kill

[GeckoOBac]

Ok then... third from the left kneeling down over kelsaras body. screenshot of kill

 

 

Also.. video of kill

 

Doesn't really matter I guess, people will still believe whatever they want. *sigh*

[reqnifoni]

Just curious with the on the fly stance switching Kitru how blackout and force shroud compares with the defensive CD's of DPS Juggs and PT's. Since deception does have the 25% damage reduction for 6 secs due to darkswell.

[XantosCledwin]

In terms of DPS, I would have to agree that I think Assassins are on the low-end of things, looking at The 2.0 DPS list, from what has been submitted, it is clear that shadow/assassin is the lowest, with powertech being right behind them, note that the Assassin / Powertech highest parse is lower than everyone else's lowest parse.

 

Yes, Assassin has a significantly weaker Damage Per Second rating than alot of those other classes. But you have to realize that what the Assassin lacks in DPS, it more than makes up for in Crowd Control, Stealth, Back Up Tank Capabilities (Main Tank Capabilities in some places), and the ability to back stab enemies for large amounts of spike damage.

 

Basically while the storyline of the Imperial Agent likens it more closely to the Rogue of D&D... the actual game mechanics of the Assassin more closely resemble the game mechanics most closely associated with the Rogue (right down to the fact that the Rogue and Assassin both share the Back Stab mechanic in common).

Edited June 24, 2013 by XantosCledwin

[Kitru]

Just curious with the on the fly stance switching Kitru how blackout and force shroud compares with the defensive CD's of DPS Juggs and PT's. Since deception does have the 25% damage reduction for 6 secs due to darkswell.

 

The DR contributed by Blackout is multiplicative mitigation, not additive mitigation. As such, Blackout is actually going to do a remarkably small amount, especially since it will actually bring your passive DR up enough that you'll *still* be worse than a heavy armor character in their tank stance by default (since theirs also applies a stance based DR increase in addition to the armor increase).

[HTPRO]

Emphasis mine.

 

If you take a look at parses, you'll realize how untrue that statement is. Player skill > class capacity 98% of the time. it's a well know fact that A: most players cannot maximize their class role perfectly, and B: most players assume they can. Which is the ideology that leads you to your statement. there aren't 7 better options. there may be 7 other AC's that have the POTENTIAL of possibly having more DPS, but in most situations, a raid leader really isn't making a choice from a perfectly optimized group of AC's. he's pulling from a small group of people that showed up for his raid.

 

So all the bantering about "uselesness" of a class is not only unwarranted, but it's childish. Or motivated by a PvP player who wants EZ mode kills, so he's overstating the uselessness of his class to get buffs he wants.

 

As long as a class can meet the DPS thresholds, it's not really an AC issue. there will always be an AC at the bottom, and an AC at the top. and most players skill will probably put them all smack dab in the middle. if the AC suffers from lower DPS, then a change is warranted. but the uselessness charge can go. if the AC is useless, then there are dozens of guilds every week that finish NM Ops with useless classes. doesn't say much for the game design, does it? or perhaps Bio had that in mind...

 

 

Bolded part of your quote is exactly what I've been trying to tell you whole time but you continue to ignore that and go on and on and on with your own useless ****.

 

Of course player skill matters, but try to imagine this (might be hard for person of your intelligence but I"ll try).

 

There is a player. This player plays DPS assassin for one month, learning the rotation, priorities etc perfectly.

Now this same players plays a marauder or a sniper for one month, learning the rotation, priorities etc perfectly.

Now the 1M$ question: On which character will this player manage to get more DPS with equal conditions?

 

Now without a doubt a good player on an assassin will do more damage than poor player on a marauder, but I was sure we are talking CLASSES regardless of skill of the player playing those classes.

 

So for the last time. If we talk equal conditions, equal gear, equal player's skill, assassin / shadow is advanced class whose DPS potential is the lowest. And that's what this thread is supposed to be about.

 

-------

 

About jug vs assassin utility. Stronger defensive cooldowns as a DPS spec on the juggernaut (saber reflect, saber ward especially), intercede, and most importantly - armour debuff. Assassin has stealth res. (Not to mention rage spec's massive AoE damage for fights requiring it while assassin has *****)

Edited June 25, 2013 by HTPRO

[GeckoOBac]

Now the 1M$ question: On which character will this player manage to get more DPS with equal conditions?

 

On the one he's best at.

 

A good player will be able to work well with just about any class, but the truth is: you'll be able to get the BEST out of one, perhaps 2 classes at most, regardless of their respective difficulty. That usually coincides with the main char, if nothing else because you usually put more time there, but there is also the affinity each one of us has to a particular playstyle.

 

So that statement that skill is > class still holds true. Yeah, if you start from 0 with no experience whatsoever and with the ability to choose any class, a sniper or a marauder will probably pull higher numbers easier, but that's just learning curve. It has been shown that all classes can compete even in the most difficult and elitist content. Any further discussion will only prove that you just want to ostracize a class for the sake of it.

 

About jug vs assassin utility. Stronger defensive cooldowns as a DPS spec on the juggernaut (saber reflect, saber ward especially), intercede, and most importantly - armour debuff. Assassin has stealth res. (Not to mention rage spec's massive AoE damage for fights requiring it while assassin has *****)

Beside off tanking, I will state that resilience is by FAR the best cooldown a dps can have to cope with predictable raid or character focused damage. Almost 100% of raid damage will be completely ignored by resilience and the short 1 min cooldown will make sure that it can be used very often.

The only exception is on burn phases were continuous raid wide damage is expected, then blade ward is better than deflection.

Edited June 25, 2013 by GeckoOBac

[HTPRO]

On the one he's best at.

 

A good player will be able to work well with just about any class, but the truth is: you'll be able to get the BEST out of one, perhaps 2 classes at most, regardless of their respective difficulty. That usually coincides with the main char, if nothing else because you usually put more time there, but there is also the affinity each one of us has to a particular playstyle.

 

So that statement that skill is > class still holds true. Yeah, if you start from 0 with no experience whatsoever and with the ability to choose any class, a sniper or a marauder will probably pull higher numbers easier, but that's just learning curve. It has been shown that all classes can compete even in the most difficult and elitist content. Any further discussion will only prove that you just want to ostracize a class for the sake of it.

 

 

Way to miss my point. What does the fact that a good player can work with any class have anything in common with the point of this thread?

 

It is becoming increasingly annoying to repeat myself over and over trying to get the truth through your (and certain other poster's as well) thick skull. Oh well last try.

 

I am NOT claiming that some player might be better on his assassin than he is on his marauder.

I am NOT claiming that assassins can not pull their weight in raid.

 

I am claiming that if we have players of equal skill, equal gear doing DPS under equal conditions and considering large number of tries to remove "luck with series of crits" then assassin will always end up at the very bottom aka the worst. This is the truth.

 

Before you, or anyone else decides to reply to my post, please read the bold part three times to make sure the point has not been missed (and also try to look up what EQUAL means in case there will be another "skill > class")

[Ottoattack]

Lets look into the PvP and PvE separately:

 

PvE:

 

Tank: While still has the highest overall mitigation, sin tank is highly prone to spike damage. Mitigation is highly dependent on RNG, and if you get unlucky 2-3 hit in a row and healer did not respond fast enough, can die very easily. It's safe to say they are the weakest tanks.

 

DPS: the formula for PvE class power as dps is DPS output + utility provided to group. The utility is there, resurrecting dead allies, out of combat CC and self cleansing. Dps output is the worst among all classes; however, deception has huge burst which is very useful in killing adds and clearing trash. Deception sins also can tank for short parses while utilizing defensive cool downs and there are plenty of them. I would not consider sin dps to be the worst, because the provide much to the group other than just dps output.

 

PvP:

 

Tank: Every RWZ will have a deception sin guarding node.

 

Dps: Deception sin is incredibly powerful. While not a fixture of every ranked team, defiantly can have a spot if the team strategy relies on hit an run tactics. Very powerful for pugging.

 

To conclude, for PvE, I will agree that sin may not be in a great position, PvP wise they are performing very well. Just do not play lightning and you will be fine.

[GeckoOBac]

Way to miss my point. What does the fact that a good player can work with any class have anything in common with the point of this thread?

Way to miss MY point there, which was: personal skill and affinity with the class has more to do with the end results than the performance of the class itself.

 

I am claiming that if we have players of equal skill, equal gear doing DPS under equal conditions and considering large number of tries to remove "luck with series of crits" then assassin will always end up at the very bottom aka the worst. This is the truth.

And I present to you the fact that it's still irrelevant. It's irrelevant to bring it up, irrelevant in real situations, the only real place where this would be relevant would be on a feedback thread with data and suggestions on improvement. This is not the case.

 

And to quote your own post, try to get this "through your thick skull":

Any kind of discrimination, even if just for the sake of speech, of classes will see the strongest opposition from me. I'm sick and tired of elitism like this, ESPECIALLY when it's COMPLETELY uncalled for.

All classes have been brought through the HARDEST content available, even before it was nerfed because deemed slightly too difficult. Saying that "X is better than Y" is pointless, creates false opinions, divides the community, generates a climate of hatred and resent and is, I must stress this, irrelevant.

 

If you have GENUINE concerns about a class's performance, create a feedback thread like others have done (Kitru for example has both created and posted in several threads concerning Shadow tank's spikiness issues) and bring data and suggestions on how to improve the situation. Threads like this one are just annoying and, most often, ignorant. (Yes I know you're not the OP but you seem to defend his points)

Edited June 26, 2013 by GeckoOBac

[Kitru]

personal skill and affinity with the class has more to do with the end results than the performance of the class itself.

 

I don't necessarily agree with this entirely, so I'll attempt to qualify it a bit.

 

Skill and affinity are not binary attributes (present, not present), nor do all classes necessarily require the same degree of skill or affinity to achieve different levels of effectiveness. In general, I've always viewed 3 functional categories of skill/affinity (while they don't necessarily occur with simultaneity, there is a strong relationship between the two: high player skill breed high affinity and high affinity with a class breeds skill, at least with that given class) for each class/spec: low, moderate, and high. While it's sometimes apt to only ever view DPS at the top end, where skill and affinity are guaranteed to be high, it's not always *entirely* appropriate. For each spec, you can then determine comparative effectiveness based upon the categories of skill/affinity.

 

There are some classes that have only performed acceptably at the high category. A decent example of this is Balance Shadows, pre-2.0, where they had *incredible* theoretical top end, but an almost *painfully* high requirement. when in the low or moderate category, Balance DPS was actually very mediocre. The spec had to be played *perfectly* and, even then, fell short of the theoretical maximum.

 

There are also some classes that perform *very* well at every category. Good examples of this are pre-2.0 Assault VGs (faceroll DPS that was top tier), Focus Guardians/Sents (there's a reason it's called "lolsmash/lolsweep" by a lot of people), and Gunnery Commandos.

 

There are also some classes that progress in a largely linear manner: low gets bad results, moderate gets decent results, and high gets amazing results. Watchman and Combat Sents are both great examples of this.

 

Of course, it's not like these three types of grouping of classes are explicit, but they're good general categories for comparison's sake.

 

Now, under the assumption of balance, all classes *should* be able to perform, presumptively, within a roughly even level at the top end. This is the general goal. Of course, one has to wonder why a class that requires *absolutely* perfect play should perform *equally* to a class that is incredibly forgiving and faceroll in its simplicity. In a perfect world, the specs that require the most skill to perform optimally should perform at the *top end* of the balance leeway in DPS, so as to reward the higher skill requirement.

 

On top of this, there should be some level of even performance at the moderate level of skill/affinity. There's a greater level of acceptable variability because the competition is less fierce, but, there should still be *some* general equality.

 

At the low category, I don't think anyone really cares. It's annoying to see a smashmonkey perform as well as a reasonably competent Watchman, but it's not really a big deal.

 

Now, having said all of this, I don't quite agree with the statement that skill and affinity matter more than class itself. Class has a strong effect upon *how* important skill and affinity are to the final product, as well as what the end product happens to be. A perfectly played Watchman is going to outstrip a perfectly played Balance Shadow, as it stands, because of the impact of the class, not the player. Unless this outstripping is within the limited bounds of acceptability, I wouldn't say that there's a balanced state.

 

As to how all of this relates to the state of Shadows, ignoring the state of the class as it refers to tanks, Shadows are regularly outstripped by pretty much every class as far as DPS is concerned. Yes, it's *feasible* to bring them along and clear content, but it's *still*, from a raw comparative standpoint, inferior to the same level of performance at the same level of skill as other ACs. It's not so much a question of "this is what you should play" but instead "if you play it, you should expect to be outpaced by every other class in whatever you choose to do" (the only time Shadows are particularly effective is in node guarding and some huttball strategies in PvP).

 

As such, it's not a question of class or skill governing performance. It's a question of how the two interact and what the end result is. Such performance shouldn't be the only question upon which your choice of what to play depends, but it should still be a factor that people know going in to the decision.

[GeckoOBac]

As such, it's not a question of class or skill governing performance. It's a question of how the two interact and what the end result is. Such performance shouldn't be the only question upon which your choice of what to play depends, but it should still be a factor that people know going in to the decision.

 

And while I agree with what you said about specific performance of the classes, that's a discussion that's worth making but in the proper way and in the proper form. You know very well that balancing is hard and it would be foolish to believe that each class performs in the same exact way. The problem is: this is NOT a balancing/feedback thread.

It wasn't meant as such and for all the discussion that went on here, it still is NOT a balancing thread. That's my issue. As such I refuse to discuss any class in the terms that the OP and many of the following posters are doing.

 

About the specific of skill vs class, I see what you mean but you have to remember that we're not talking about a mathematical model or cows in a vacuum here. The very real issue is that you can't ever detach a character from its player, nor you can obtain a "model" of how the player "works" and simply transpose it on a different class. It doesn't work that way. Yes, you can say that on average shadow performs worse than most classes, which certainly has a statistical value and can be the basis for a balancing pass.

 

However, as that is not the point of this thread, when talking of "who you can bring to an ops", you can't simply state "this class can, this can't" as, and this is my point, you're not getting the class, you're getting a player. If that player is able to clear the content you want to clear while wearing mismatched greens and a badly specced class, as much as it may be painful for minmaxers (and I say that as one of em), you can't really argue with what he's doing and his class cannot be an obstacle to his taking part in content. If, and only if, he's not up to the content, he can be given instructions on how to better his own playstyle/gearing/spec. And I assure you, 99% of the time, if that is not enough, changing class to a "better one" won't do any good either, as for the end results, the actual player is more important than the class.

[Altheran]

PvP:

 

Tank: Every RWZ will have a deception sin guarding node.

 

I'm sure you meant Darkness, not Deception.

 

They don't have this spot thanks to their performance, but by mere coincidence of their assets (stealth + sap + improved passive survivability).

 

Stealth and sap is the main reason to put a stealther there. It's common to all stealth ACs.

They're not the better suited to defend against lone attackers. Infiltration/Deception are better to kill in 1vs1 as they're built for it.

A Sawbones/Medic can quite endlessly lengthen his own life span, or at least make it last minutes, while tanks will die faster.

The only thing Kinetic Combat/Darkness have is a slightly better chance to survive a CC-burst or focus when a healer can't heal fast enough to overcome this.

 

If it were not for guarding node, (job which can be done quite as well by any stealther outside of the slight risk of being quickly obliterated), they're not really wanted.

Ask people to take a Shadow or Assassin for a main tank (assuming the node guarding spot is already taken), and the responses will be "I'd prefer a Guardian/Juggernaut, or a VG/PT in the worst case"*.

 

If for some reasons, a Kinetic Combat Shadow or Darkness Assassin would be forbidden from stealthing or sapping, they wouldn't have any spot in RWZ because their performances are not here. The node defense role would be dedicated to any other stealth spec, or other tank than them.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Altheran

[Kitru]

cows in a vacuum here.

 

I always preferred was "spherical chickens in a vacuum". Spherical chickens are *way* more hilarious than normal cows.

 

However, as that is not the point of this thread, when talking of "who you can bring to an ops", you can't simply state "this class can, this can't" as, and this is my point, you're not getting the class, you're getting a player.

 

While I agree that you're bringing a given character for the player, not the class, when you're grabbing people that you don't explicitly know, the only thing you can go off of is the class and spec. If you were given the choice between bringing a random Balance Shadow or a random Focus Guardian, which do you think would manage to perform better? The Balance Shadow, at best, is going to achieve rough parity with what even a comparatively stupid Focus Guardian is going to manage. It's one of the reasons why Assault VGs were so friggin' popular pre-2.0: it was pretty much impossible to screw them up and they pulled *ridonculous* DPS.

 

If you're dealing with someone you *know*, bring the player, not the class. If you're dealing with randoms, most people, assuming they're not just searching for bodies, are going to go with the class and, if said class is only viable when played at a *really* high level, there's going to be a certain degree of discrimination against them. Right now, that discrimination exists for Shadows. Unless the ops knows you, people aren't likely to bring them along if they have options otherwise.

[GeckoOBac]

I always preferred was "spherical chickens in a vacuum". Spherical chickens are *way* more hilarious than normal cows.

To be honest I've never used either (norm was just a sphere or a geometric point). I've just read that spherical cows are what is often used in other countries (probably a urban legend or a relic of the past, still achieves comedic value I guess).

 

If you're dealing with someone you *know*, bring the player, not the class. If you're dealing with randoms, most people, assuming they're not just searching for bodies, are going to go with the class and, if said class is only viable when played at a *really* high level, there's going to be a certain degree of discrimination against them. Right now, that discrimination exists for Shadows. Unless the ops knows you, people aren't likely to bring them along if they have options otherwise.

 

Beside the fact that threads like this tend to inflate the issues (whether real or imaginary), I'd say that it's still quite irrelevant. You're not going to pug the hardest stuff and probably not even hard content unless you're sure that regardless of who you're getting (unless that dps actually manages to HEAL the enemies), you'll pull through.

That basically leaves story mode content and it's really easy enough that the class will mostly be irrelevant, while comprehension and execution of tactics will be paramount. Again, I'd rather (and I know I did) choose one guy who knows the fights rather than a random guy who has a "better" class. Pulling enough dps to clear the content is not an issue in just about any fight I will accept pugging.

Of course if you're not pugging then you get the "player", and we're back to what I was saying above.

[Kitru]

(probably a urban legend or a relic of the past, still achieves comedic value I guess).

 

It's actually based upon a joke (involving a dairy farmer asking a theoretical physicist for help) that hinges up the manner in which theoretical physicists oversimplify things to make calculations easier even though it diminishes the calculation from actually being applied in reality. Just do a search for "spherical cows" or "spherical chickens".

 

One could reasonably expand this joke to include theorycrafters (Trandoshan Shadows fighting womprats?) since we're apt to oversimplify for similar reasons, though we at least try to make sure our formulas get close enough to reality to be applicable.

[HTPRO]

Way to miss MY point there, which was: personal skill and affinity with the class has more to do with the end results than the performance of the class itself.

 

I agree, however you fail to understand that I'm trying to tell you that DPS assassin has lowest DPS potential in the game. If assassins were only played by very good players (thus pulling great numbers) and marauders were only played by bad players (thus pulling **** numbers), would that make assassin a better dps class? Of course not, but this simple concept is apparently too hard for you to grasp.

 

It is amazing how you fail to understand my points and just keep repeating same unimportant ********. Is it really that hard for that pea brain of yours to stop saying "BUT SKILLED ASSASSIN DOES MORE DMG THAN BRAINDEAD MARAUDER"? Yes he does, we are discussing potential of class under equal conditions, which is exactly why assassins are the worst DPS AC in the game.

 

I'm going to repeat this for the last time. If you still respond with the same kind of bul**** you always do I swear I will kill a kitten.

 

Step 1) Forget OP's post. I do not agree with him that dps assassins have no spot in ops. Let's pretend that OP made a post saying "ASSASSIN / SHADOW IS DOING THE LEAST DPS IN 2.2"

Got it? Let's move on!

 

Step 2) Imagine every player has the same skill, can play his character on the same level, has the same gear and is DPSing the same boss.

Understood? GREAT!

 

Step 3) Imagine the fight was parsed and you are going to read the logs.

Can we move on? Good.

 

Step 4) You will see that DPS Assassin is at the very bottom.

 

In case you still do not understand the post, I'm going to sum up everything I posted for you so you have easier time comprehending the text (although so far you have shown extremely poor reading skills)

 

A) DPS Assassins are the worst DPS AC in the game because their DPS POTENTIAL is lowest.

B) The fact that they are the worst does NOT mean they are not viable. They can still kill bosses and progress operations, they can still DPS flashpoints, they can still manage to do dailies.

C) The fact that a good player on assassin can outperform bad player on any other class does NOT mean assassin is not the worst AC.

 

and finally....!

 

D) I do not have any issue with the fact that assassin is the worst dps. Someone has to be. I do not want them buffed, I do not want them changed, I do not care at all. I am merely saying that they are the worst and I have no idea how can you fail to grasp this.

 

Last thing: Skill > class. However if skill is equal, classes matter. And assassins are currently the worst choice in this regard.

[GeckoOBac]

I said I will continue to oppose your line of thought and I mean it.

 

You may want to read my last couple of posts, but let's try again

 

Step 2) Imagine every player has the same skill, can play his character on the same level, has the same gear and is DPSing the same boss.

Understood? GREAT!

Such thing does not exist in the game. To quote myself, you get the player, not the class.

 

Step 4) You will see that DPS Assassin is at the very bottom.

Maybe, maybe not. At most you can say that on *average* shadows do less dps. Which is arguable because the sample of parses is not scientifically determined and can thus skew the statistics by quite a lot.

 

In case you still do not understand the post, I'm going to sum up everything I posted for you so you have easier time comprehending the text (although so far you have shown extremely poor reading skills)

You should really calm down a bit, you seem quite excited there. I assure you I understand quite correctly what you're saying. I just disagree on part of the content and wholly disagree on the presentation (mostly, the location where you're trying to press your points).

 

A) DPS Assassins are the worst DPS AC in the game because their DPS POTENTIAL is lowest.

Possibly. I'm not debating this, nor I ever did. I just oppose the notion that his is relevant once it's been proven that they are able to complete all the content in the game. And on that note...

 

B) The fact that they are the worst does NOT mean they are not viable. They can still kill bosses and progress operations, they can still DPS flashpoints, they can still manage to do dailies.

C) The fact that a good player on assassin can outperform bad player on any other class does NOT mean assassin is not the worst AC.

Assuming that from some point of view assassin is the worst DPS ac (and that's already debatable as the utility they bring may/may not outweigh the potential DPS loss, as has been argued in this very thread), your concerns may be legitimate BUT this is not the place or the way to voice them. What this thread, this kind of thread, do, is raise false alarms and ostracize players (IE: random guy reads this thread, judges shadows badly and refuses to bring any into his operations).

 

As I discussed above with Kitru, when talking about operations, you always bring the player not the class. And the kind of content that allows you to bring a "random" person you can only judge based on class and one-sided statements, is also the kind of content that can be completed by any class with bad specs because in those cases the actual class performance is MUCH LESS important than actual knowledge and execution of the mechanics (AKA: player skills)

 

 

D) I do not have any issue with the fact that assassin is the worst dps. Someone has to be. I do not want them buffed, I do not want them changed, I do not care at all. I am merely saying that they are the worst and I have no idea how can you fail to grasp this.

And to make it clear. I'm not discussing whether assasin has or not the best/worst dps. I don't care. You could be discussing it has the best dps for all I care, the answer would be the same (though less forceful cause it'd be less likely to ostracize people).

I know what you're saying, I "grasped" that the first time. What you don't understand is that it has and should have the same relevance as worrying about stepping on an ant crap.

 

Last thing: Skill > class. However if skill is equal, classes matter. And assassins are currently the worst choice in this regard.

And finally, just for the sake of discussion, let's say you're right. So what? You have concerns? Make a feedback thread, you know, constructive criticism. The fact that shadows are able to complete all the content suggests that the problems may lie more in the learning curve than in the end output so you have that avenue to explore. THAT would be a great thing to do because, unlike this kind of thread and your kind of statements, that would have a chance to assess the real issues and perhaps find ways to fix em. Instead you're just saying APPLES ARE NOT AS GOOD AS ORANGES, which is debatable, as a broad statement is mostly false in the specific cases it actually matters and does NOTHING to actually fix the issue, while perhaps condemning some "apple producers" to failure.

[Ottoattack]

I'm sure you meant Darkness, not Deception.

 

They don't have this spot thanks to their performance, but by mere coincidence of their assets (stealth + sap + improved passive survivability).

 

Stealth and sap is the main reason to put a stealther there. It's common to all stealth ACs.

They're not the better suited to defend against lone attackers. Infiltration/Deception are better to kill in 1vs1 as they're built for it.

A Sawbones/Medic can quite endlessly lengthen his own life span, or at least make it last minutes, while tanks will die faster.

The only thing Kinetic Combat/Darkness have is a slightly better chance to survive a CC-burst or focus when a healer can't heal fast enough to overcome this.

 

If it were not for guarding node, (job which can be done quite as well by any stealther outside of the slight risk of being quickly obliterated), they're not really wanted.

Ask people to take a Shadow or Assassin for a main tank (assuming the node guarding spot is already taken), and the responses will be "I'd prefer a Guardian/Juggernaut, or a VG/PT in the worst case"*.

 

If for some reasons, a Kinetic Combat Shadow or Darkness Assassin would be forbidden from stealthing or sapping, they wouldn't have any spot in RWZ because their performances are not here. The node defense role would be dedicated to any other stealth spec, or other tank than them.

 

I actually meant darkness solo defending node. And no question they can't be MT anymore in WZs, cuz suriviability is not there.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Ottoattack

[JasonFJ]

For what it's worth, HTPRO, I thought your step-by-step argument was crystal clear and I do agree with every point. Assassin/Shadow PvE DPS needs a ~10% damage buff and a lot better fluidity in it's melee animations and play.

 

To quote Alfred from Batman: "Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, [...]. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn. "

[Tonev]

PVE: As a DPS this AC has no spot on raids to clear NiM or even HM S&V.

Deception and Madness can't to do the numbers that marauder/sniper/mercenary do.

It's the worst tank atm, spiky as hell, no mitigation compared to PT/Vanguard and Jugg/Guardian. As a healer I can't waste a GCD healing other targets, my tank will lose 50%HP in 2sec.

 

PVP:

Deception is very nice, you can burst damage like a truck, the changes made deception a nightmare for healers.

Madness is easily cleansed and healed.

Tank assassin in PVP is viable because of the team utility, pull, speed, sap etc.

 

Powertech/Vanguard and Assassin/Shadow are the worst DPS atm, but at least PT/Van they're the best tank.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Play a Marauder/Sentinel and then come back and edit your thread is what I think. In PvP you guys do **** tons of damage, Knock down and two back stabs usually ends the fight. I have even seen number up to 10k on one back stab with Shadows and sins so I have no clue on what you are talking about.

 

Your class is in a better position than mine currently because you have a lot of options as both a dps and a tank "Stealth is your friend in PvE and PvP).

[Kitru]

Play a Marauder/Sentinel and then come back and edit your thread is what I think.

 

The person you quoted explicitly said that Deception in PvP is the only really effective set up. I *would* be very curious for you to explain exactly how 19k damage (2k from Spinning Kick, 10k from the first Shadow Strike, 7k from the second since only the first would benefit from the 30% damage increase from Infiltration Tactics, assuming Spinning Kick proc'd it) ends up killing someone, especially since said combo would render the Shadow pretty much entirely out of Force (Shadow Strike without Infiltration Tactics costs 50 Force). The damage is too low to actually kill anyone at 55 (and is pretty much entirely predicated upon getting a chain of 3 crits) and the Shadow wouldn't be able to effectively follow up thanks to demolishing their resource pool.

 

For every other spec in every other scenario, Shadows are in a terrible state. Hell, Combat and Focus Sentinels have disgusting burst as well so it's not like Sentinels are somehow at a disadvantage (and, while you might not have stealth, you've got the most disgustingly OP suite of CDs imaginable so, ya, not much room to complain unless you're just not using the stuff given to you when you have 4 different ways to laugh at all incoming damage with a Leap to close with your targets).