Where did EA go Wrong?

[Lostpenguins]

Umm... all you are doing in TOR for the entirety of the levelling process is mob grinding. You are killing probably just as many mobs in TOR as you would in EQ, it's just that mobs die in seconds in TOR vs minutes in EQ. TOR throws in the odd cluster of 15 minutes worth of watching a cutscene to distract you from the fact that all you are doing is grinding mobs.

 

TOR has no AI. All mobs just stand still and attack till their hps or yours reach zero. Some bosses have trick mechanics that need to be figured out, but otherwise they all act exactly the same all the time.

 

And yes... EQ's hostility to solo play was definitely one of it's greatest flaws.

But it had quests and an engrossing single-player to keep you interested in the leveling process. Mob griding in EQ required a serious mindset and dedication that does not appeal as broadly as more current games like WoW does, which is why it had a niche group. Once again, you're example of fun is flawed because WoW's questing system seems to be more fun than EQ's pure mob grind. If mob griding was more fun, don't you think more companies would have a mob grind w/out the quest hub system?

 

Once again, you're trying to tell me EQ's leveling process was fun. A slow, painful process of tediously killing the same mobs over and over and over just to see your exp bar go up one bubble in maybe an hour. And you think that's fun?

 

Plus, you said a lvl 1 snake AI was better than the AI in a lvl 42 mob here. How?

 

See, this is why I can't have intelligent conversations with you. You roam all over the place saying non-sensical things (like the lvl 1 snake analogy) and give no proof. You just say things like it's true, but you're not kidding me. The AI in EQ was far worse than anything in this game. I gave you a specific example (training mobs). You have given me 0 examples to contradict.

[LordArtemis]

I think they could improve the static mob problem immensely if they simply have more of them involved in some kind of activity or on patrol. Too many mobs just standing around waiting to be killed.

[CosmicKat]

But it had quests and an engrossing single-player to keep you interested in the leveling process. Mob griding in EQ required a serious mindset and dedication that does not appeal as broadly as more current games like WoW does, which is why it had a niche group. Once again, you're example of fun is flawed because WoW's questing system seems to be more fun than EQ's pure mob grind. If mob griding was more fun, don't you think more companies would have a mob grind w/out the quest hub system?

 

Once again, you're trying to tell me EQ's leveling process was fun. A slow, painful process of tediously killing the same mobs over and over and over just to see your exp bar go up one bubble in maybe an hour. And you think that's fun?

 

Plus, you said a lvl 1 snake AI was better than the AI in a lvl 42 mob here. How?

 

See, this is why I can't have intelligent conversations with you. You roam all over the place saying non-sensical things (like the lvl 1 snake analogy) and give no proof. You just say things like it's true, but you're not kidding me. The AI in EQ was far worse than anything in this game. I gave you a specific example (training mobs). You have given me 0 examples to contradict.

 

*shrug* It was fun for me and fun for hundreds of thousands of others for many years.

 

You are defending one game (TOR) that would not exist had the game you are attacking (EQ) not existed. You are criticizing the game that literally created the genre and set the blueprint for every game to follow it... without ever having played it yourself.

 

I can't describe AI in EQ when you have no context of the mobs, the environment, or the player classes. Describing how a single dungeon, and the mobs in it, worked is not possible without diagrams of the 3 dimensional terrain in that dungeon, now each mob was positioned, which other mobs it was linked to, the programmed behaviour of those mobs etc etc. There is no comparison in TOR. It's like comparing Star Wars to Phantom Menace. They are the same in one sense and entirely different in others.

[Andryah]

I think they could improve the static mob problem immensely if they simply have more of them involved in some kind of activity or on patrol. Too many mobs just standing around waiting to be killed.

 

Ironic in some ways... for every poster that says the mobs are too static...someone else posts that there are too many mobs and they need to be thinned out. Maybe they are static, but there are just too many to navigate around... which means they are not so static after all because they are ganking you from behind if you ignore them and try to bypass them.

 

Personally, I find mob dispersion to be just about right and not all mobs are static by any means. There ARE a good percentage of pats moving around in the game It's just that the pats are usually single (strongs), but once you engage them those static and disinterested mobs that you bypassed to jump the pat will agro and join the fight. Why? from my observation, because there is usually a different agro range for mobs when you place your back (or flank) to them compared to when you face them. It's not particularly AI intelligent.. but it is effective in keeping players from just ignoring static mobs and bypassing them in a lot of cases.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

*shrug* It was fun for me and fun for hundreds of thousands of others for many years.

 

Times change. It's really not fun anymore, not even for the majority of old schoolers that still play the genre. If it was.. all the old schoolers would be playing Korean grinders.

 

Blame WoW for dumbing down the pain of leveling and starting a trend if you like. Regardless....it's not going back to the old days of EQ or Classic DAoC, or AC.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Andryah

[LordArtemis]

Ironic in some ways... for every poster that says the mobs are too static...someone else posts that there are too many mobs and they need to be thinned out. Maybe they are static, but there are just too many to navigate around... which means they are not so static after all because they are ganking you from behind if you ignore them and try to bypass them.

 

Personally, I find mob dispersion to be just about right and not all mobs are static by any means. There ARE a good percentage of pats moving around in the game It's just that the pats are usually single (strongs), but once you engage them those static and disinterested mobs that you bypassed to jump the pat will agro and join the fight. Why? from my observation, because there is usually a different agro range for mobs when you place your back (or flank) to them compared to when you face them. It's not particularly AI intelligent.. but it is effective in keeping players from just ignoring static mobs and bypassing them in a lot of cases.

 

It's a fair point. I feel there are too many static mobs but I can see and understand your view. If they are going to be static (essentially guarding I assume) I would like to see more of them busy with activity then.

[CosmicKat]

It's a fair point. I feel there are too many static mobs but I can see and understand your view. If they are going to be static (essentially guarding I assume) I would like to see more of them busy with activity then.

 

The mobs are just stationary bags of hitpoints that spew coins when killed.

 

They split one bag into several smaller bags to make us feel more uberly awesome when we wade through them like a lawnmower though grass.

[Jrea]

EA use to be a great company, I have been playing there games my hole life, all the way back to the first Nintendo and Genesis consoles. The made it big on sports games, hockey, baseball, even golf, releasing new games every year to keep up with the current sports season.

 

But in recent years they have gotten bigger and fallen into the modern "shot term" business that have been causing so many economic problems.

 

"Make as much as you can as fast as you can and as long as you are making at least a short term profit you can't be wrong. "

 

Remember all the young business douche bags from the 1980's? Well they are running things now.

 

The reason that this has irked so many players is that they are buying popular franchises, stripping them and selling them out as a cheap and easy way to make a profit. Something you grew to love is and gave you hundred hours of enjoyment is being used and abused by people that don't care because and don't have too.

 

Hopefully they will keep causing more problems than the can afford to fix and will have to make some changes

Edited June 26, 2013 by Jrea

[jgoldsack]

EA went wrong with Hero Engine.

 

It went downhill from there.

[Darth_Moonshadow]

EA use to be a great company, I have been playing there games my hole life, all the way back to the first Nintendo and Genesis consoles. The made it big on sports games, hockey, baseball, even golf, releasing new games every year to keep up with the current sports season.

 

But in recent years they have gotten bigger and fallen into the modern "shot term" business that have been causing so many economic problems.

 

"Make as much as you can as fast as you can and as long as you are making at least a short term profit you can't be wrong. "

 

Remember all the young business douche bags from the 1980's? Well they are running things now.

 

The reason that this has irked so many players is that they are buying popular franchises, stripping them and selling them out as a cheap and easy way to make a profit. Something you grew to love is and gave you hundred hours of enjoyment is being used and abused by people that don't care because and don't have too.

 

Hopefully they will keep causing more problems than the can afford to fix and will have to make some changes

 

 

EA is still a great company, but only to the Sports fans. They get info on discounts for season passes and better resources to their games and blah blah blah. Meanwhile, the rest of us are sitting cold and dirty on the outside of the pub, watching them eat and drink like kings.

[Andryah]

Remember all the young business douche bags from the 1980's? Well they are running things now.

 

Actually, a lot of them retired early.

 

And they were not all d-bags... only about 75% of them.

 

But in recent years they have gotten bigger and fallen into the modern "shot term" business that have been causing so many economic problems.

 

"Make as much as you can as fast as you can and as long as you are making at least a short term profit you can't be wrong. "

 

ALL business in the consumer entertainment is "short term". You are only as good as you last big hit and the competition is always looking to outperform you, take you down, or acquire you.

 

The reason that this has irked so many players is that they are buying popular franchises, stripping them and selling them out as a cheap and easy way to make a profit. Something you grew to love is and gave you hundred hours of enjoyment is being used and abused by people that don't care because and don't have too.

 

Very jaded view IMO. Franchises are licensed, not purchased, in most cases. And the licensor who owns the IP is the real target of your jade IMO... because they have to sign-off on everything the licensee does with the IP.

 

Besides.. nothing lasts for ever.. progress kills all. I remember the slide rule. and the calculator destroyed it forever. Bastages!

[Darth_Moonshadow]

I remember the slide rule. and the calculator destroyed it forever. Bastages!

 

Maker, how old are you? Do you remember the Infinite Empire? The Leviathans? The last Great Time War?

[Andryah]

Maker, how old are you? Do you remember the Infinite Empire? The Leviathans? The last Great Time War?

 

Not quite as old as a slide rule implies. Close though. My dad taught me the slide rule with one hand while handing me an HP calculator with the other. He called it a history lesson before conquering the world with electronics.

 

I am however one of those business "people" from the 80's that Jrea is worked up about. I cashed out all my stock options and retired early.

[CosmicKat]

EA use to be a great company, I have been playing there games my hole life, all the way back to the first Nintendo and Genesis consoles. The made it big on sports games, hockey, baseball, even golf, releasing new games every year to keep up with the current sports season.

 

But in recent years they have gotten bigger and fallen into the modern "shot term" business that have been causing so many economic problems.

 

"Make as much as you can as fast as you can and as long as you are making at least a short term profit you can't be wrong. "

 

Remember all the young business douche bags from the 1980's? Well they are running things now.

 

The reason that this has irked so many players is that they are buying popular franchises, stripping them and selling them out as a cheap and easy way to make a profit. Something you grew to love is and gave you hundred hours of enjoyment is being used and abused by people that don't care because and don't have too.

 

Hopefully they will keep causing more problems than the can afford to fix and will have to make some changes

 

Electronic Arts was founded by a group of game designers who were fed up with the corporate cookie-cutter world of games in that era. Now they are a Kracken that eats every company in their path that follows those ideals.

[Arkerus]

Times change. It's really not fun anymore, not even for the majority of old schoolers that still play the genre. If it was.. all the old schoolers would be playing Korean grinders.

 

Blame WoW for dumbing down the pain of leveling and starting a trend if you like. Regardless....it's not going back to the old days of EQ or Classic DAoC, or AC.

 

The number of rose colored glasses never cease to amaze me. It's frustrating for me because players used to beg in those game forums to streamline features. Then when they got what they wanted, they complain the game immersive.

[Lostpenguins]

*shrug* It was fun for me and fun for hundreds of thousands of others for many years.

 

You are defending one game (TOR) that would not exist had the game you are attacking (EQ) not existed. You are criticizing the game that literally created the genre and set the blueprint for every game to follow it... without ever having played it yourself.

 

I can't describe AI in EQ when you have no context of the mobs, the environment, or the player classes. Describing how a single dungeon, and the mobs in it, worked is not possible without diagrams of the 3 dimensional terrain in that dungeon, now each mob was positioned, which other mobs it was linked to, the programmed behaviour of those mobs etc etc. There is no comparison in TOR. It's like comparing Star Wars to Phantom Menace. They are the same in one sense and entirely different in others.

I watched my friends play which is enough to know why the AI in EQ was garbage. I don't even get where you're coming from... seriously. I'm bashing EQ's lack of making a mob grind interesting. All the leveling in EQ was just a mob grind. WoW, Rift, ToR, and many games aftewards did a mission/quest type of system that covers over the mob grinding. That makes it more fun. Mob grinding in EQ was not fun.

 

Maybe it's time to take your rose-tinted glasses off and see EQ for what it is... great for it's time, but your demands were far less than they are now. If EQ came out now, as it was, how "fun" do you think it would be?

[Andryah]

Electronic Arts was founded by a group of game designers who were fed up with the corporate cookie-cutter world of games in that era.

 

So was Activision. In fact, I know two of the founders of Activision, went to college with one of them. In that era, they were tired of the corporation (Atari) taking all the profits and not giving profit-sharing or equity to the game designers. Activision was founded on that basis. Of course the founders long ago sold out and took their cookies and retired.

 

But my point is this is an never ending cycle in business. New business evolves out of old business... driven by one or more compelling events, usually related directly to money or freedom, and then grow up and the cycle repeats somewhere else in the economy. It follows human nature and it is a normal and periodic as sunrise and sunset.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Andryah

[Truga]

Maybe it's time to take your rose-tinted glasses off and see EQ for what it is... great for it's time, but your demands were far less than they are now. If EQ came out now, as it was, how "fun" do you think it would be?

 

Never played EQ, but lineage 2 was similar afaik and still is an awesome game, and is still massively popular in russia and asia. It never really got going in the west for some reason. Unfortunately, none of my friends ever really played it, so neither have I (I have a level 60 char on the europe server, but that's it).

 

As for not having many subscribers, Ragnarok Online topped at 25 million subs worldwide according to Gravity, with now over 80 million accounts that have played it in the past, and, in it's peak, it barely had any quests worth mentioning apart from class change quests. It was just simply fun to play, even with it's primitive AI and simplistic design (similar to diablo2). It was also fun because it offered highly customizable characters: a proper stat system, somewhat similar to d&d, that allowed much much more freedom than what our silly passives trees and a single primary stat+endurance allow us here. Oh, and, it boasted a 30% female player population, something I've not seen since in any other MMO.

 

Getting to level 99 (max) was a feat in it's own, and not getting there wasn't a big deal either, because there was no stupid automatic stat inflation as you leveled. A skilled and well built level 90 could wipe a group of 99s easily, something not even possible in current western mmos, due to automagic stat inflation (try going naked into black talon with your 55 and you'll see what I'm talking about).

 

Even now, 11 years old, it is still massively popular in the east, sporting some 25 servers in Japan alone, and those servers hold up to 20k players each at peak times. That's the total amount of subs swtor has currently, for example and they get that many concurrent users. And it's still running a subscription based model there (so no, asian does not equal f2p). I'd still be playing it, but after some ~7 years, I kinda grew tired of it.

 

Plus some of the later patches were not very fun, often quite obviously inspired by wow, probably by misguided project managers thinking they can take some of wow's (rather large) niche. Sadly, it's pretty terrible now (old skills/trees got obsoleted, stats made almost irrelevant, etc). If something new came out, that built upon what RO started (and nor RO nor RO2 aren't it, sadly), I'd go play that in a heartbeat.

 

As with L2, I again have no idea why it didn't catch on in the west as much. I guess not enough promotion. It's really too bad,

[Hessen]

If every MMO forum goer joined a forum and got to dictate and create an MMO as a collective, that had to at the very least, cover it's development costs. Even if someone else coded and produced it, and all they were responsible for was creation of concepts, balancing PvP, creating challenging PvE and fun RP, do you think they could successfully do it?

[Elyxin]

Personally, I like this game more the Rift.

 

I really wanted to like rift. The idea sounded great. but after lvl 20 I got burnt out on "rifts", the quests felt very canned and clicky (I just clicked on them to get them to finish them to get the exp), and it felt like a constant grind. which SW never did to me. even after leveling dozens (kid you not) of alts in the game to various levels, I still enjoy the cut scenes, the storylines, etc. Rift did not have the same feel. after lvl 8 or so I lost teh story direction, and it became a group of meaningless quests to me.

 

Teh Rift character system was fantastic. i wish more MMO's tried to move in that direction. it was probably a balance nightmare for them, but IMO it was well worth it. Point for Rift here...SWtOR skills aren't horrible simply because they copied a known system that wasn't broke. uninspiring, but worked. Rift won that one.

 

Rift gear design drove me crazy. no matter what I threw on my Cleric, she looked the same. as levels went on, she lost armor (it got skimpier), but that's about it. customization is a big deal to me, and Rift really doesn't have it. Plus, they tend to go with very similar looking meshes for a large portion of their class specific gear, so even if it's different you almost have to zoom in and stare hard to see it.

 

last but not least, the character animations were boring at best. Cleric didn't look like she was swinging a hammer...she looked like she was churning butter. compared to my Juggernaut leaping, smashing, impaling mobs in the head with her saber...sad thing is even with the horrid engine this game has, it also has some of my most favorite animation in the genre (aion tops the list IMO...gladiator animations were simply awesome).

 

In all honesty, the biggest thing Rift did right (and i think you or someone else did mention it), is that they listened and changed ALLOT. but on the flip side, they also were in a really bad situation...they staved it off by listening and making changes. difference between the two really is EA. big companies influence small ones they own, period. EA's business model, it's upper management (who approves and organizes the budgets for the smaller teams), this all really is what makes the decisions for Bio. no matter how amazing the dev team they have is, the Management Org is what drives the decisions...the tools for the metrics, etc.

 

Not sure who was making those decisions on Rift's side , but they obviously made some solid decisions. Bio has been getting better. In spite of the doom and gloom on the forums (remember, forums usually barely compromise 10% of a given games population, if that. more like 5%), the game has been getting better...populations have seemed to stabilize, and overall its not in a bad spot. it has tons of stuff that it can do better, but I think at this point Rift vs. SWtOR is Apple vs. Orange, with the exception that Rift seems to have a team that listens, AND has the capacity to act (acting is they key here) most larger Corps don't offer their dev teams that luxury.

[Darth_Moonshadow]

Electronic Arts was founded by a group of game designers who were fed up with the corporate cookie-cutter world of games in that era. Now they are a Kracken that eats every company in their path that follows those ideals.

 

Well, you either die a hero...

[Lowyjowylof]

Sure... but which game became the juggernaut of success? That or WoW. I know people hate comparing to WoW, but they are the measuring stick of success. Obviously they're doing something right where many of these other games (SWG, EQ2, ToR, Rift, TSW, etc.) are not.

 

Sure, you may not want a WoW clone, but from a company standpoint, you're going to aim for the biggest possible bucks. And trying to emulate these smaller games that were not as successful is a bad idea, don't you think? You don't want a WoW clone, but you want an SWG PRE-CU clone. Don't you think that would have made this game have even less subs since you're trying to emulate a less successful game?

 

WoW is the game that made MMOs main stream, before that, they were a niche genre. The only reason I played SWG at first was because it was Star Wars. The reason I play TOR are because of my friends I made in SWG and it's Star Wars...well mostly.

 

Companies do model all their MMOs after WoW because they base it off financial success, which is completely understandable. But the problem lies in that they obviously don't look at lessons learned. BW/EA obviously didn't look at what SOE could have done better with SWG. If they didn't consider the game that had the same IP as them, they are bafflingly moronic. The SW IP will have more scrutiny and publicity than anything out there. At least 4 generations should be aware of SW. I bet if you asked 90% of the people over the age of 60, they would say *** is WoW?

 

The problem is now a days is that the business part gets in the way of the development. TOR should have been released probably 6 months later, just like SWG should have been released 8-12 months later than it did. Of course Hind Sight is 20/20 but if SWG would have released closer to the release of WoW with JTL fully functional, WoW would not be king and SWG would still be here.

 

Besides WoW reminds me of the Twilight Series, it's popular and successful but it still isn't very good.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Lowyjowylof

[Hessen]

Very early on on the forums there was a thread/poll that basically said "do you just want WoW, but with a Star Wars IP?" And it was a very 50/50 split poll.

 

Some people wanted something totally different and new, others wanted more of what they have enjoyed for years with WoW but basically new content and shiny lightsabers.

 

Starting from that fundamental difference at the beginning of development, you're going to lose half your potential playerbase already.

[Andryah]

Very early on on the forums there was a thread/poll that basically said "do you just want WoW, but with a Star Wars IP?" And it was a very 50/50 split poll.

 

Some people wanted something totally different and new, others wanted more of what they have enjoyed for years with WoW but basically new content and shiny lightsabers.

 

Starting from that fundamental difference at the beginning of development, you're going to lose half your potential playerbase already.

 

Which exemplifies that there is no pleasing everyone and it's a bad return on investment to try. And that MMO diversity in the market place is actually good for players as they have choices which MMO (or maybe a combination of several) best fits their MMO play needs. And that players as a whole are lazy and want the perfect MMO for them, delivered to their door, and maintained to their expectations.. which is complete fantasy of course.

 

What MMOs do today, for the most part (there are few exceptions), is they build a game property that will have broad appeal to a wide audience as that is the pathway to their revenue targets, and to presence in the market through player population scale. It's a proven business approach. Proven because it is successful commercially, and it broadly meets players needs (not all players... the diversity in the genre is needed for that).

 

Yeah, there are some niche MMOs that cater to a very specific demographic. They also are small, stay small, and stay niche. But you know what.. for the person that wants what is niche produced for their demographic need.. they should be playing IT, rather then crying because a broad appeal property does not. Niche MMOs do this well. Heck EQ is still open, apparently just for CosmicKats needs.

 

Large game companies are producing what sells well to large audiences. Any particular small niche in the market is not worth their time to overly-focus on. As such.. you get games that are broadly appealing...but rarely deep enough for the "specialist player" (ie: the "I only PvP" or "I only Raid" or "I only PK"). Players need to pick and play the MMO that meets their needs. If there needs are specialized needs.. fine... but don't then play a wide appeal game and cry about it. That's like buying a Ford Focus and then complaining that it's not the non-street-legal competition car you really want.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Andryah

[WarbNull]

I would not say where did EA go wrong, but rather where did BioWare go wrong. EA may back this game but it is BioWare that developed it. BioWare made the design choices for the game.

If EA did anything wrong it would be mostly Advertising. EA is not really good in advertising a lot of there games. A lot of WoW's success is down to advertising. That game is advertised to death so that it keeps reaching more and more audiences.

The other thing EA may be more at fault on is pushing the Cartel Market. Lets face it. EA wants money and they know the F2P system is a great way to make lot of easy money with as less work as possible.

 

Other than that it is mostly on BioWare on how this game turned out. After all the true success of a game is how good it really is. SWOTR could be so much better if they would just fix some things, Improve others, and add in some features that a lot of us desire. The game is good but it can be better.