Assassins, whats the story?

[Arox]

They do huge crits, can vanish, lots of defensive abilities. but are light armor

 

We have heavy armor yet they kick my ***. Even if im lolsmash.

 

i just dont get it.

 

 

whats the key to beating them? and why on earth are they able to do 12k maul crits

[DarthSpekulatius]

because they do 3 3.5k mauls for every 9.5 they do

while you do 12k Smashes all day long

Edited June 20, 2013 by DarthSpekulatius

[Copperheadr]

Yes, I also find it hard to counter them, their burst output is insane and also they have very good crowd control and escape solutions (they don't really need to escape though).

 

Also, I deeply despise the style of play which consists in running around in circles, bunny jumping and other action trash like that. Imagine Darth Vader fighting like that in the movies, even Darth Maul....I would prefer more static saber clashing epic style fighting to this leet skillz stuff. I'm getting too old.

[Feddot]

Let me guess, your spec is rage?

[Luckeyduckey]

Respec Vengeance and rip their entrails from their still warm bodies.

[Omophorus]

Deception Assassins are much like Concealment Operatives, in that we have to attack from an advantageous position to start or our likelihood of winning drops significantly.

 

You basically can't avoid being opened on by a competent Assassin, so you're just going to have to plan on being down 5-12k of your HP before you're really able to react (Spike > Maul > Recklessness + Discharge). However, after that "alpha strike" there's only one more near-guaranteed hard-hitter for the next 7 or so seconds (the Recklessness'd Shock that immediately follows Discharge). After that, the Assassin is proc-hunting.

 

Your main goal is to mitigate as much of the opening burst as you can and exploit the squishiness of the Assassin after that. There is no "magic bullet" to beat the single burstiest spec in the game currently, and quite possibly the strongest 1v1 class, but there are some things you can do to help your odds.

 

1) Saber Ward. Mauls will wiff, and the rest of the burst is Force damage that you can straight cut 25% off. Unless the Assassin breaks off the flight and flees, they can't stand up to sustained DPS applied to them. The whole goal of Assassin is to murder your target before your squishiness gets you killed. Saber Ward is a major monkey wrench in that plan. Pop it as soon as you stand up from Spike.

 

2) Don't waste your CC breaker on Spike or Low Slash. Spike only lasts 2 seconds, and Low Slash breaks on damage. Low Slash is generally used less as a CC than as a free Duplicity proc and then an opportunity to line up a Maul without interference. Even if you break Low Slash, the Assassin can likely circle dance to land the Maul anyway.

 

3) Don't drag out the fight. There are no channels or short-duration buffs to interrupt that you can CC your way out of, and the longer a fight drags on, the more opportunities an Assassin has to proc Duplicity. CC only if you need breathing room. Also, Assassin's CDs recycle quicker than yours, don't give them a chance to take advantage of that. Plus, there's a lull in Assassin burst and a significant drop in sustained DPS after the opener, but the longer the fight goes on, the more of that alpha-strike capability returns.

 

4) Abuse predictability. Usually a Force Charge or Obliterate precedes a Smash, and Smash is the most dangerous thing you can do to an Assassin. Most Assassins will pop Force Shroud immediately after you gap close to blank off the Smash. Delay the Smash so that Force Shroud is wasted. If possible, try to avoid using Force Crush until after the Assassin uses Shroud as well, as that's another obvious target.

 

5) Laugh if they don't crit. Recklessness is not 100% crit chance. Mauls generally crit <25% of the time. If the Assassin gets an unlucky string of non-crits, expect them to flee, because they aren't winning that fight.

 

Assassins wilt under pressure, so you have to pressure them. Countering that, Assassins have 2 powerful escape mechanisms that are very difficult to counter.

 

Phase Walk can be used while stunned and basically guarantees that they get beyond 30m to flee a fight if losing. An Assassin fleeing is a win for you, even if you don't get a kill. It buys you time to heal up and get your CDs back.

 

Combat stealth is difficult to counter as Rage due to lack of DOTs. Combat stealth can be used to flee or to "reset" the conditions back to an advantageous state for the Assassin (they can re-open on you with impunity if Spike is off CD, they can CC you and out-of-combat heal). The best thing you can do is AoE taunt the instant the Assassin vanishes, as it will force them back into combat if they're within 15m of you. They can still open on you, but they can't sap you or run away at out-of-combat speeds.

 

To sum up, recognize that Assassin tactics are simple - burst down the target before being flimsy gets you killed. Your job as a Juggy is to mitigate as much of the burst as you can and hit back quickly. Assassins can't do much about Smash once Force Shroud is gone, so make them waste it early and then waste them.

 

To put it plainly - the odds on killing an Assassin in a 1v1 are not good. If you get the upper hand, they can leave, and you can't stop them. However, living through the initial burst and making them flee IS a win for you. It gives you time to get help, get your CDs back, etc.

 

Oh, and one last thing, planting the marker for Phase Walk is bizarrely loud, so if you hear it and an Assassin on your team isn't nearby, you can expect to be opened on in the near future. It's not 100% reliable, but it does help prevent being caught flat-footed.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Omophorus

[CBRGhostRider]

Several good points made by omophorus, I'll just add/comment a bit.

 

.

 

You basically can't avoid being opened on by a competent Assassin, so you're just going to have to plan on being down 5-12k of your HP before you're really able to react (Spike > Maul > Recklessness + Discharge). However, after that "alpha strike" there's only one more near-guaranteed hard-hitter for the next 7 or so seconds (the Recklessness'd Shock that immediately follows Discharge). After that, the Assassin is proc-hunting.

 

The trick is to pop reflect at the right time. The typical opener goes:

spike - maul (procced) - recklessness - discharge - shock

 

You basically have to eat the maul, but if you can reflect right as he pops discharge and shock, you basically saved 10k-15k damage AND reflected back a good portion onto him.

 

1) Saber Ward..... Pop it as soon as you stand up from Spike.

 

Saber ward is great, but I'd use reflect right as I'm standing up, and after that dies off then for sure saber ward.

 

 

4) Abuse predictability. Usually a Force Charge or Obliterate precedes a Smash, and Smash is the most dangerous thing you can do to an Assassin. Most Assassins will pop Force Shroud immediately after you gap close to blank off the Smash. Delay the Smash so that Force Shroud is wasted. If possible, try to avoid using Force Crush until after the Assassin uses Shroud as well, as that's another obvious target.

 

Another thing to be aware of is dark embrace. Deception sins get this for 6 secs after exiting stealth. They can further pop blackout after that and regain dark embrace for another 6 seconds. This not only increases their force regen, but gives them a 25% damage reduction. The tree gives a further 30% damage reduction on AoE. So smashes don't hurt that much. furthermore, if they happen to pop shroud at the right time, your smash will do 0 damage, so for sure be aware of that.

 

5) Laugh if they don't crit. Recklessness is not 100% crit chance. Mauls generally crit <25% of the time. If the Assassin gets an unlucky string of non-crits, expect them to flee, because they aren't winning that fight.

It increases crit by 60% for force attacks (shock, discharge). With a 20% crit chance, that would be 80%, so it will usually hit.

 

 

Combat stealth is difficult to counter as Rage due to lack of DOTs. Combat stealth can be used to flee or to "reset" the conditions back to an advantageous state for the Assassin (they can re-open on you with impunity if Spike is off CD, they can CC you and out-of-combat heal). The best thing you can do is AoE taunt the instant the Assassin vanishes, as it will force them back into combat if they're within 15m of you. They can still open on you, but they can't sap you or run away at out-of-combat speeds.

 

Like omophorus says, this is usually used to reopen. Here is the real kicker with combat stealth. Deception sins get a 60sec reduction on recklessness cooldown when they exit combat. If this is a pure 1v1, their combat stealth will cause you both to exit combat. The 4 piece bonus further gives a 15 sec drop on cd of recklessness, AND gives you 1 extra charge of recklessness! (i.e. 3 force abilities crit chance increased). Now the usual cooldown of recklessness is 1m30sec. He can shave off 1m15sec off that cooldown, so if your fight lasts longer than 15 sec, you can expect him to stealth out, reopen and do all that cr@p all over again. But you have neither reflect nor saber ward at this point....

 

Also, it will reset blackout and give him dark embrace again. So you can expect 24 sec of continuous dark embrace. Exit stealth at opener - blackout - combat stealth and reopen - blackout.

Edited June 21, 2013 by CBRGhostRider

[Ottoattack]

If its a solo battle, rage jugg has little to do to stop/counter a competent deception sin. It is designed this way. Sins excel in isolated battles. In group setting, use a defensive CD and rely on allied healers.

[Sykomyke]

It increases crit by 60% for force attacks (shock, discharge). With a 20% crit chance, that would be 80%, so it will usually hit.

 

I thought that the crit buffs with recklessness were multiplicative, not additive. Meaning if you had 20% crit before and used Recklessness you would get an actual (48)% increase making it a total of 68% to crit with force attacks.

 

Is it additive or multiplicative? Can anyone confirm real quick?

[CBRGhostRider]

I thought that the crit buffs with recklessness were multiplicative, not additive. Meaning if you had 20% crit before and used Recklessness you would get an actual (48)% increase making it a total of 68% to crit with force attacks.

 

Is it additive or multiplicative? Can anyone confirm real quick?

 

Good question with recklessness. All I have noticed is I see BIG numbers jumping off when I use recklessness, and it rarely doesn't crit.

 

I've always had this question for stuff like mitigation as well (blackout + AoE DR + armor DR) do they stack additively or multiplicatively. What further confuses the issue is that sometimes the damage reduction is visible in the character sheet, and sometimes it is not.

 

Anyway, I look forward to the answer.

[AGSThomas]

I play as vengeance and honestly I never really had a problem with sins (my problem is snipers and Gunslingers.) Granted, I don't do a lot of 1v1 because In warzones the only time that might take place is if I try to take an objective by myself. In that case though, if they open on you they have a huge advantage. As vengeance they cant stand long against you.

 

If you pop your Saber Ward during their opener and then Enrage and Enraged Defense, you can get your Dots and crits on him and more or less even the playing field. One trick I like to use is get my dots on them, Force Choke them, then Force Push them. They are basically doing nothing but taking dot damage for 5 or 6 seconds. Then run up to them (don't jump because they haven't used force speed yet.) chilling scream them, it forces them to use force speed because they cant jump maul you. When force speed is done, charge them. Now you have unstoppable plus chilling scream, it will force him to combat stealth. If you are on an objective, he will have to come out of stealth to stop you without healing. That's when I use my CC break and my AOE mezz. Chilling Scream again, Start your dots and pop Saber Reflect and Endure Pain because hes going to try and burst you down. It should be close but you should win.

Edited June 21, 2013 by AGSThomas

[KeyboardNinja]

I thought that the crit buffs with recklessness were multiplicative, not additive. Meaning if you had 20% crit before and used Recklessness you would get an actual (48)% increase making it a total of 68% to crit with force attacks.

 

Is it additive or multiplicative? Can anyone confirm real quick?

 

Additive, as with nearly every buff in the game. Recklessness adds 60% to your existing crit chance. Thus, if you start at 20% chance to crit, you will end up with 80% with Recklessness. Note that this can actually push you over 100% crit chance if you're starting from above 40% (not possible in the current game, but possible pre-2.0). This is still valid because crit is rolled against shield, so you might still fail to crit if you're trying to bring down a tank.

[Arox]

wow some great replies and advice in here. Thanks.

 

just gets me down how we have Heavy armor.. the strongest armor in the game. But when maras/assassins his us its as if we are in cloth,

 

really sucks, I can survive 10x longer on my sorc

[Helig]

wow some great replies and advice in here. Thanks.

 

just gets me down how we have Heavy armor.. the strongest armor in the game. But when maras/assassins his us its as if we are in cloth,

 

really sucks, I can survive 10x longer on my sorc

Heavy armour is overrated. Tons of classes have powerful abilities that either ignore, or go through armour. It's the skills, powers and talents that affect survivability the most.

 

Pre-2.0, Sents, despite wearing only medium armour, were the undisputed toughest non-tank melee, thanks to amazing defensive cooldowns. Darkness hybrid Sins, while wearing light armour, boasted almost as much survivability, but with additional tactical benefits. Post-2.0 Vengeance comes very close with Reflect and additional Guard Stance mitigation, since Dark Charge got nerfed and Darkness relies more on shielding for mitigation.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Helig