Why there are a lack of tanks

[Sarielle]

I am so glad I have a couple of RL friends who tank so I don't have to deal with some of the "I am god, you will bow to my wishes" egos here.

 

Holy crap. Give me a noob tank or an overeager DPS any day over that nonsense.

[Atramar]

If a tank need s aheal so quickly after the initial pull that you have to pre-HoT them, you need a new tank. Can a tank taunt off the stupid healer? Yes. Should we have to? No. And sometimes I don't just to make a point.

 

People not following simple rules and thinking they are, somehow, magically better than the mechanics of the game are why things have gotten so out of hand.

 

I hardly remember my hot per tick 3 sec now, but if that is to much of initial aggro, then I'm sorry.

Again, I'm not to much familiar with LoS pulling, as on neither HM 55 it was required for me. (seen it about 7 times with 5 times it was a SIN who just loved teleport, 1 time a jugg who I asked 'not to do this, waste of time, I can heal you', and once on my self when healer wasn't sure of his ability to heal. - excluding one nasty pull on Cademinu before end boss, but this one is just to spread...)

reason for a hot and earlier healing then you may wish, is, when you start getting hit, getting you back on 90% will cost me dearly, and I have to use my 'emergency' cool down to get energy. In best scenario it's not a biggy, but if DPS pulls, and I, instead of free heal and recovering energy must heal him, it get's very annoying.

 

So I'm sorry, if you can't pull with AoE threat catching, that is not my fault. Healer is effective if no one dies, not if he heals 'just enouth' to not steal threat off lazy bum tank.

 

Again, if you ask me not to HoT you, fine, but I will warn in /p chat, that I'm sorry if you die. Simples

[Synavix]

I am so glad I have a couple of RL friends who tank so I don't have to deal with some of the "I am god, you will bow to my wishes" egos here.

 

Holy crap. Give me a noob tank or an overeager DPS any day over that nonsense.

 

Probably not the best opinion for this particular forum, but I'm going to have to agree with this. I probably get just as many compliments and "thank you"s for being a decent person as I do for being a good tank, and sometimes for as little as being polite at the start of a run. I really don't know how horrible some of the other tanks these people might have to run with are, but I feel sorry for them. Being a good tank is no more difficult or important than being a good DPS or healer, regardless of what a lot of people might try to say. It simply requires a different skill-set and personality, and that's why there are a lack of dedicated tanks.

 

I personally love it when healers pre-HoT me. If it's a difficult trash pull, it means I'm less likely to die. If it's an easy pull, it means the healer has more time to DPS to make the run faster, or I'm just all that much safer. If I'm trying to do a LoS pull and the healer doesn't LoS with me it can be frustrating, but that's almost always from a lack of communication, not actually anyone's fault. Just like you don't want to be told how to tank, telling your healer how to heal is not the right way to go about it, and punishing them for something as silly as this gives tanks a bad name.

 

I'd agree that the pace of the run should be set by the tank, but that doesn't mean to go at whatever pace you feel like. Learning the proper pace is a skill, like anything else. You have to judge how prepared your DPS are, what kind of mood your group is in, and how geared your healer is. Always strive to push the group to keep the run fast and interesting, but slow enough that no one feels uncomfortable. Above all, listen to your group and what they want. Unless the pull is particularly tricky and requires explanation, don't spend half an hour to mark everything. Keybind a few important marks and do it on the fly. As has been stated: threat is easy, and you often have time to mark the next pull while the current one is being finished off (again, when necessary...which isn't often in this game).

Edited June 25, 2013 by Synavix

[Icebergy]

You are incorrect. If a healer heals you while you're los pulling, they have agro automatically. So you start the fight off with near 0 agro, while theirs is already built. Don't heal tanks when LoS'ing.

 

If you can't pull aggro back off their negligible threat from 1-2 HoT ticks, you have bigger problems than your healers. I would rather have that steady stream of heals already coming in, since I am confident in my aggro management. The benefits to the healer far outweigh any perceived inconvenience to the tank...plus if I am on my healer, pre-HoTing lets me throw some DPS.

[Sarielle]

Probably not the best opinion for this particular forum, but I'm going to have to agree with this. I probably get just as many compliments and "thank you"s for being a decent person as I do for being a good tank, and sometimes for as little as being polite at the start of a run. ... Being a good tank is no more difficult or important than being a good DPS or healer, regardless of what a lot of people might try to say. It simply requires a different skill-set and personality, and that's why there are a lack of dedicated tanks.

 

Yeah, I get that you want people operating at peak efficiency if you're doing bleeding edge content, but if someone is pulling those "to prove a point" stunts in like ... story mode Cademimu or something, that's just all kinds of egomania gone wrong. If someone gets to me that much, a quiet /ignore at the end of the Flashpoint works wonders. (EDIT: That's a general "you" by the way, not you specifically. I realize it read a little funny after I posted. )

 

Good DPS really short-changed in the recognition department, but it's a world of difference when you've got one vs. when you don't. I can already tell that at level 31, I imagine it becomes even more pronounced at endgame. I think both tanks and healers tend to get into a mindset that they're more important than anyone else. The relative shortage of tanks (and to some degree healers) in this game just means people put up with more nonsense from them, and the bullies get empowered.

 

It's nice to see there are capable tanks out there who can also be nice people. Like the groups you mention, I try to make it a point to thank pleasant groups at the end. Often the most pleasant have also been the most capable.

 

 

... And to hopefully forestall any "why are you here, go away troll" type reactions, I read other roles' forums because I want to understand what makes it harder for different classes, why, what their weaknesses are and what I can do to alleviate some of that. I know why Sentinels tend to want a fast pace now, for instance. I know tanks can't always taunt some boss adds so I don't assume they're playing poorly if I have doggies chomping at my heels. I now know shadows/sins are spiky, not always due to being poorly played.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Sarielle

[quirez]

Don't respec DPS when doing dailies. Seriously. If you're trying to run around as a DPS using your full tank gear, you're shooting yourself in the foot because pretty much *all* of your itemization is wasted. It's no surprise that you took 2.5 hours to do your dailies; you were doing it in pretty much the most idiotic way possible. I don't even bother respecing my healers to DPS when doing dailies because I can eliminate downtime while still dropping reasonably decent DPS to go along with my companion's.

 

On my tanks, doing those dailies, I actually performed some time trials with guildies and I *always* beat them out by 15-20 minutes (they finished in ~1:40, I finished in ~1:20): running with a DPS companion (as long as it's not HK; his lack of AoE renders him suboptimal), you can chew through groups of enemies, especially now that all tanks have much better AoE, with virtually negligible downtime, which, while you kill *slightly* slower, you won't have to rest nearly as much (or at all, in the case of my Shadow) which more than makes up for it.

 

If you're taking longer on your tank, you're doing something wrong. If you're taking *a lot* longer on your tank, you're doing something *really* wrong.

 

uhm are you serious? why should i care about any defensive item optimization while running dailies? i mean its not like there is any chance something will kill me, hell, they barely have the chance to attack me - which renders shieldtech spec quite useless as our proc rely on getting hit. goin dps spec IS improving your offence capability no matter your gear - or am i missing something? dont take it the wrong way but i think your argument is at least strange.

 

the 2,5h time was just to show the difference its not a real number, i didnt ever measure it tbh, i just wanted to emphasize that it takes longer on tanks.

 

i agree that stealth helps (maybe also thats why you do it faster on shadow than your guildies?) in makin dailies faster but still - simple logic states that (if good geared) dpsers are doing dailies faster.

 

also tank shadows have highest dmg from tanks and spammable aoe which makes them best tanks for dailies probably.

 

Shieldtechs are far from that - our spammable aoe isnt worth the heat anywhere except getting aoe threat, and you can use DFA only so often. flamethrower is great but becouse its conal it isnt always the best option.

 

anyway i will certainly try your ideas and measure the time for dailies in the next few days in both dps spec and tank spec

Edited June 25, 2013 by quirez

[Hockaday]

If you can't pull aggro back off their negligible threat from 1-2 HoT ticks, you have bigger problems than your healers. I would rather have that steady stream of heals already coming in, since I am confident in my aggro management. The benefits to the healer far outweigh any perceived inconvenience to the tank...plus if I am on my healer, pre-HoTing lets me throw some DPS.

 

I, and any other tank can. But just because we can, does not mean we should have to waste our snaps on a healer's mistake. There is -zero- benefit to wasted heals. ZERO! You throw a hot on, which produces agro, but is 100% over healing. So you produce agro, don't actually heal (you make green numbers...but don't recover any health). So you just wasted power, made threat for no reason, and put your HoT on cd. Not very smart if you ask me.

[Ancaglon]

If you can't pull aggro back off their negligible threat from 1-2 HoT ticks, you have bigger problems than your healers. I would rather have that steady stream of heals already coming in, since I am confident in my aggro management. The benefits to the healer far outweigh any perceived inconvenience to the tank...plus if I am on my healer, pre-HoTing lets me throw some DPS.

 

I only discovered how wrong your opinion can be the other day when I was healing a 10-stack Dreadtooth on my scoundrel healer -- I stayed a little way behind the tank on the pull and got instagibbed because my slow-release medpack tick pulled aggro off his hammer-shot pull.

[Hockaday]

 

the 2,5h time was just to show the difference its not a real number, i didnt ever measure it tbh, i just wanted to emphasize that it takes longer on tanks.

You should really clarify that then.

 

also tank shadows have highest dmg from tanks and spam-able aoe which makes them best tanks for dailies probably.

 

All tanks have spam-able aoes*.

 

*Jugs is spam-able frontal...close enough.

[Atramar]

I, and any other tank can. But just because we can, does not mean we should have to waste our snaps on a healer's mistake. There is -zero- benefit to wasted heals. ZERO! You throw a hot on, which produces agro, but is 100% over healing. So you produce agro, don't actually heal (you make green numbers...but don't recover any health). So you just wasted power, made threat for no reason, and put your HoT on cd. Not very smart if you ask me.

 

my hot doesnt have CD.

it doesnt waste any of my energy either, it actually gives me Tactical Advantage. using it during battle when I have to cast big heals between my beloved tank and 2 dpsers who refuse to attack same target and my self being attacked by ignored trash, then it wastes my energy. That is the sole reason for using it before pull or right after start. specially if tank has fast pace.

if you don't like being healed, just say so on /p chat, I'm sure person will understand your way of tanking.

less hate more communication.

 

also, make a healer. I used to run all 3 tanks, 2 dps. made a healer, and see world from his perspective to.

[Kitru]

goin dps spec IS improving your offence capability no matter your gear - or am i missing something?

 

You're missing something. A *lot* of something, actually. You're making an almost hilarious comparison that, just because a DPS spec is a DPS spec, that, regardless of your gear, you'll do more damage. The tank specs convert those tank stats into offensive capability by converting Def/Shield/Abs into recharged CDs and additional resources. DPS specs do nothing for them. In fact, DPS specs are designed to make your existing DPS stats more effective. Gear is only effective when you're in a spec that actually capitalizes on those stats.

 

I do find it funny that you say that enemies don't have the chance to attack you, but you end up taking more time than a DPS operative with a healer companion. If you're *really* killing them as fast as you think you are, you'd be blowing throw the dailies ridiculously fast and having nothing to complain about. Even in a fight that lasts ~10 seconds, you'll get attacked more than enough to actually have your tank stats make a substantial offensive difference.

 

By the way, when I ran those time trials, I wasn't just running on my Shadow tank. I ran on my Guardian and my VG as well. *Those* characters *also* beat out the DPS. It's not just Shadows that do dailies well as tanks. Guardians and VGs are *equally* good, assuming you don't run around in the completely wrong spec for your gear.

[Kitru]

pulled aggro off his hammer-shot pull.

 

If you've got to move a boss, don't try to keep opening aggro with your basic attack: Shadows and VGs have their pulls, which are going to generate more than enough threat to prevent any Healer from yanking from a single target. If a healer *ever* pulls threat from a tank on a single target, the tank is doing it wrong and needs to turn in their tank card. Healers just don't generate enough threat unless you're acting like a complete idiot.

[Icebergy]

I, and any other tank can. But just because we can, does not mean we should have to waste our snaps on a healer's mistake. There is -zero- benefit to wasted heals. ZERO! You throw a hot on, which produces agro, but is 100% over healing. So you produce agro, don't actually heal (you make green numbers...but don't recover any health). So you just wasted power, made threat for no reason, and put your HoT on cd. Not very smart if you ask me.

 

You have to use snap threat tools on the 100 threat that a healer's HoT generates?

 

I will say it again, the benefits to the healer far outweigh any perceived inconvenience to the tank. And I say perceived inconvenience because the inconvenience is only in your mind. Try playing a healer and you will see. It actually saves them power, it does not waste their power.

 

When I am on my scoundrel alt, I keep SRMP running on the tank the entire run. It is so much more efficient than trying to restack it. I keep it running during pulls, between pulls, even if you get up to go to the bathroom I will keep you HoTed. And guess what? No PuG tank has ever had a problem with it, and I have never died due to aggro from it.

 

You are a bad tank, imo. To any healers reading this thread, please ignore this guy.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Icebergy

[Icebergy]

I only discovered how wrong your opinion can be the other day when I was healing a 10-stack Dreadtooth on my scoundrel healer -- I stayed a little way behind the tank on the pull and got instagibbed because my slow-release medpack tick pulled aggro off his hammer-shot pull.

 

You probably shouldn't run 10 stack Dreadtooth with such a terrible tank.

[Hockaday]

You have to use snap threat tools on the 100 threat that a healer's HoT generates?

 

I will say it again, the benefits to the healer far outweigh any perceived inconvenience to the tank. And I say perceived inconvenience because the inconvenience is only in your mind. Try playing a healer and you will see. It actually saves them power, it does not waste their power.

 

You are a bad tank, imo. To any healers reading this thread, please ignore this guy.

 

 

-sigh- Starting to hate healers now lol. No, I don't have to, but it's the quicket and -easiest- way to get it back when a healer does something stupid. Which, in FPs, might as well.

 

I will repeat it, there is no real benefit to a healer HoTing a tank on pull. If you ran with a tank often you would see this, instead of pugging all the time, which I assume you do from your posts. I run with the same healer all the time pretty much. She is a MMO vet, and knows that HoT before a LoS pull is bad practice in mmos.

 

To healers reading this thread, ignore that guy. Unless you want to be a bad healer who is acting like a dps. "I only think of myself."

 

 

Also, I have played a healer...briefly, pre 2.0 though lol and was a sorc. Healing was so easy, you have no idea. Bubble and go afk. Sorcs are bad healers now it seems (or the majority who play them are bad)...so I really can't comment on it. But if you HoT on a LoS, you are bad.

[Powerrmongerr]

There's never been enough tanks to go around (basically, whenever dpsers feel like they need to get a daily or weekly done) despite only needing one tank for flashpoints, one for KP and EV, and only two for all other raids.

 

But, in the last month, I think the problem has grown significantly. I would say having access to 3-4 geared, competent tanks is now the number one benefit of guild membership, as the chance of pugging a tank who can actually run HM/NIM EC, TC, SV, and TFB is slim to none at the moment. I see no benefit to running flashpoints or any of the SM operations, so I don't run them. The desperation level on the fleet is quite profound. And if you do find a tank, the reports from fellow guildies is that they are universally terrible.

 

Most people I know who tanked have given up tanking. The extreme mechanic checks for tanks on high level raids is wearisome. You mistaunt or make a mistake, insta-wipe. TFB NiM has been the last straw for two of our guild tanks, who have basically said they are done with tanking for the foreseeable future (they were both assassin tanks).

 

It's hard to imagine more skilled tanks coming up the pipe in large numbers. There is a gigantic, colossal divide between the mechanic requirements of KP and EV versus all the other HM/NiM operations. When you hit EC HM, you suddenly are introduced to concepts that basically were never explored at any point in your earlier tanking experiences, and if you screw them up the raid group dies. It's a steep learning curve. Other than patient guilds, who's going to train the new tanks?

Edited June 25, 2013 by Powerrmongerr

[tXHereticXt]

There's never been enough tanks to go around...

 

As a tank I disagree. Not only have I been called in for OPs to fill up a tank role but also had to call out and replacements were found in abundance. There's plenty of factors not being taken into account, I know plenty of people in my guild alone with one or two tank alts and work on gearing them up on their downtime. It's a subjective mindset, if you play at poor times then it's a matter of luck of the draw really.

[Powerrmongerr]

As a tank I disagree. Not only have I been called in for OPs to fill up a tank role but also had to call out and replacements were found in abundance. There's plenty of factors not being taken into account, I know plenty of people in my guild alone with one or two tank alts and work on gearing them up on their downtime. It's a subjective mindset, if you play at poor times then it's a matter of luck of the draw really.

 

Well then, I stand corrected. There are plenty of tanks to go around and my limited perception is entirely inaccurate.

[EFSoupy]

Regarding the pre-HoTing discussion. First of all, I agree there are general rules for MMOs, but the thing about general rules is, they're general and case specific rules always trump general rules when applicable. EQ is not WoW is not SWTOR. That being said, there are also varying circumstances which have to be considered. I run my shadow tank with a scoundrel healer friend of mine. Shadows take a nasty amount of alpha strike damage on trash pulls, so the healer needs to get as much healing going for those first GCDs as he can, those HoTs are important for heals and UH. If a guardian is running with a sage, then pre-hots would be silly, not nearly the same alpha strike and sages heal differently. And from my experience, a good tank can usually generate enough threat to get the aggro back off of the healer with their AoE attacks. Most dps are more of an aggro liability than a little pre-HoT.

[Atramar]

my hot tichs 1,5k -2,3k on crit, if that is to much threat for you, I'm scared of tossing a biggy one.

joking

 

sages hot is different.

on the contrary, I tried today not hotting before pull, after tank got that 2 gcd of attacks, 1 hot, heal,1 hot (scoundrel/operative dot have 2 stacks to be worth anything), and as much as I noticed I'm getting a bit less attacked, energy managment is a bit more pain in tha bum, but dealable.

 

I get it, pre hots are annoying for the tank. Please understand that pre hotting on scoundrel/operative is quite important for energy managment to have healing efective. it's different to sage/sorc heals. (I get it you didn't run much with mando/merc healers did you)

[Icebergy]

-sigh- Starting to hate healers now lol. No, I don't have to, but it's the quicket and -easiest- way to get it back when a healer does something stupid. Which, in FPs, might as well.

 

I will repeat it, there is no real benefit to a healer HoTing a tank on pull. If you ran with a tank often you would see this, instead of pugging all the time, which I assume you do from your posts. I run with the same healer all the time pretty much. She is a MMO vet, and knows that HoT before a LoS pull is bad practice in mmos.

 

To healers reading this thread, ignore that guy. Unless you want to be a bad healer who is acting like a dps. "I only think of myself."

 

 

Also, I have played a healer...briefly, pre 2.0 though lol and was a sorc. Healing was so easy, you have no idea. Bubble and go afk. Sorcs are bad healers now it seems (or the majority who play them are bad)...so I really can't comment on it. But if you HoT on a LoS, you are bad.

 

I am a main tank, but when I heal on my alt, I heal the same way no matter if its a PuG tank or a guild tank, the only difference is if its a PuG I usually have less time to DPS.

 

You have no clue how healing or tanking for that matter works, you have completely ignored every fact presented to you "because you have been playing MMOs for 13 years". Doing something wrong for 13 years doesn't make it right, it just makes you bad. And it makes you even worse for not learning.

 

Also, please, stop making a fool of yourself. You say I am the one that only thinks of myself when you are the one that will refuse to taunt off a healer if they make a mistake or do something that doesn't mesh with your personal code.

 

You are a tank, you are not god. Shut up and tank the instance. If someone is doing something you think is inhibiting the success of the run, ask them to stop, no need to be a douche about it. But I will tell you this, I would not stop preHoTing you if I were the healer, that would completely destroy my resource management.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Icebergy

[Mc_Gregor]

I, and any other tank can. But just because we can, does not mean we should have to waste our snaps on a healer's mistake. There is -zero- benefit to wasted heals. ZERO! You throw a hot on, which produces agro, but is 100% over healing. So you produce agro, don't actually heal (you make green numbers...but don't recover any health). So you just wasted power, made threat for no reason, and put your HoT on cd. Not very smart if you ask me.

 

Overhealing does not generate threat. Putting healing probes before the pull is a standard tactics of any good operative and with current costs it greatly improves survivability.

[quirez]

You're missing something. A *lot* of something, actually. You're making an almost hilarious comparison that, just because a DPS spec is a DPS spec, that, regardless of your gear, you'll do more damage. The tank specs convert those tank stats into offensive capability by converting Def/Shield/Abs into recharged CDs and additional resources. DPS specs do nothing for them. In fact, DPS specs are designed to make your existing DPS stats more effective. Gear is only effective when you're in a spec that actually capitalizes on those stats.

 

I agree that i cut the effectiveness of my gear in half by goin dps in tank eq, but still i have my doubts about "daily'ing" - lets take a closer look at skills on my particular example:

 

-tank spec - the offensive goodies i can get are - procced faster flamethrower and procced falcon punch, ehm uhm rocket punch - both are nice, if i manage to get a flamethrower+flamethrower combo i clear one group of mobs easily, procced rocket punch helps alot in KO'ing single targets but i do have to rely on shielding to proc and i do need to be real quick if i get flamethrower proc at the end of one group - since it simply falls of very fast. another thing is i have jet pack which helps ALOT in movement.

 

-advanced prototype as my dailiy'ing spec - immolate if crits has a chance to 1-hit-KO normal mobs, prototype flamethrower - now that thingy clears trash beautifully - i do need to use 3x immo/flame burst/flame sweep, but i can also charge it by using flame sweep while running. sticky granade+pft = group dead. autocrit RS is nice but not as much help as lets say jet pack, but if u add retractable blade (ok dmg, low heat, nice dot) and 7rockets in shoulder cannon (for those silvers/golds) to the equasion than i think AP takes the lead no matter the lack of proper dps gearing

 

i do not count DFA as its there for both specs

 

I do find it funny that you say that enemies don't have the chance to attack you, but you end up taking more time than a DPS operative with a healer companion. If you're *really* killing them as fast as you think you are, you'd be blowing throw the dailies ridiculously fast and having nothing to complain about. Even in a fight that lasts ~10 seconds, you'll get attacked more than enough to actually have your tank stats make a substantial offensive difference.

 

ok i have to admit and say sorry - i overemphasized the difference thats for sure, i only had the chance to do dailies on my OP yday (busy on weekly classic ops/toborro/weekly 55 HMs) but i did notice that besides stealth there isnt THAT much difference, it IS still there its just not big

 

By the way, when I ran those time trials, I wasn't just running on my Shadow tank. I ran on my Guardian and my VG as well. *Those* characters *also* beat out the DPS. It's not just Shadows that do dailies well as tanks. Guardians and VGs are *equally* good, assuming you don't run around in the completely wrong spec for your gear.

 

there might be more truth to that than i wanted to admit before, but still i wont admit anything until i get the time to properly test it for myself

 

 

You should really clarify that then.

 

sorry about that

 

All tanks have spam-able aoes*.

 

flame sweep isnt worth the heat as a main aoe dmging skill, so is juggs kick (dunno the name) from what i recall

 

 

@the pre-hotting dilema - as both a tank and a healer i want to give and receive pre-hots, if a tank cant bear the immense weight of the hot threat (even on LoS pull) than i would be quite worried about the FP/OPS the group is in.

[Atramar]

Overhealing does not generate threat. [...]

ah, thanks for clarification, wasn't sure about that.

 

good thing to remember

 

flame sweep isnt worth the heat as a main aoe dmging skill, so is juggs kick (dunno the name) from what i recall

 

@the pre-hotting dilema - as both a tank and a healer i want to give and receive pre-hots, if a tank cant bear the immense weight of the hot threat (even on LoS pull) than i would be quite worried about the FP/OPS the group is in.

 

flame sweep and sweeping slash are in fact worth it. 1-2 and you have focuns on your self again.

specially when dps ignores weak/standard/strong and goes for elites first... since they are so pro dps monsters that other mobs can wait as they are not worth of their pro elite rotation which is reserved for elite mobs

Edited June 26, 2013 by Atramar

[quirez]

ah, thanks for clarification, wasn't sure about that.

 

good thing to remember

 

 

 

flame sweep and sweeping slash are in fact worth it. 1-2 and you have focuns on your self again.

specially when dps ignores weak/standard/strong and goes for elites first... since they are so pro dps monsters that other mobs can wait as they are not worth of their pro elite rotation which is reserved for elite mobs

 

sorry but you are quite out of topic ;P our discussion there was about doing solo content - dailies especially

 

few pages eariler i said flame sweep is great for keeping aoe threat.