The REAL Most Powerful Force Users

[tunewalker]

Ah you are right about the dates, I keep forgetting the retcon.

 

Ya I just remembered the one line from the book about how Leia had rescued Luke from the darkside and such its all in the book like I said been a while since I read it so some things are foggy but I know some of the basics of what happened.

[tunewalker]

Knowledge = power and it took natural abilities with the Dark Side itself, not just raw power or rage to use rituals, you had to have a deep understanding of the Dark Side to use such abilities.

 

again last I checked this thread is about Raw power and usage of said raw power while Knowledge is great and can be used in a standard vs thread its the whole some techinques are largly ignored as we aren't sure how much RAW POWER they require. that's whole point who has been able to tap into the most Raw power. Its why argueing hey look at all these Esoteric abilities this person learned is like meh that's not inidicative of power same with this case we are talking power here and that's about it.

Edited June 25, 2013 by tunewalker

[LadyKulvax]

again last I checked this thread is about Raw power and usage of said raw power while Knowledge is great and can be used in a standard vs thread its the whole some techinques are largly ignored as we aren't sure how much RAW POWER they require. that's whole point who has been able to tap into the most Raw power. Its why argueing hey look at all these Esoteric abilities this person learned is like meh that's not inidicative of power same with this case we are talking power here and that's about it.

 

A deep understanding of the force is raw power, what do you think ALL sorcerers use? you are making this arbitrary rule that knowledge in the force and raw power can't be combined for something greater.

[tunewalker]

A deep understanding of the force is raw power, what do you think ALL sorcerers use? you are making this arbitrary rule that knowledge in the force and raw power can't be combined for something greater.

 

Ok I am trying to get this across yes we know that he has a lot of raw power because of the rituals and a great knowledge but we cant compare that to some one else with great power all that well. Like I said before whats to say Kyle katarn couldn't do the same rituals with that kind of knowledge he could have the connection and the power to do so just didn't have the know how or the drive to get the know how.

 

and I am not making any of this up this was pretty much stated at the beginning of the thread during earlier discussions that unique powers aren't neccisarily indicative of power sure they show a great knowledge and while they can be used to say yes this person is powerful its not indicative of HOW powerful because we don't know just HOW powerful you need to be to do it that's the issue.

 

 

Edit: Ultimately I am having an issue trying to figure out how to word this to be fully understood its difficult. And here is the other issue if this is all true and knowledge is truly the end all be all of all of this then Plageus clearly beats Kun here as he had all of the teachings from millennia's of sith along with his own sith alchemy and such that were never before done which would show a greater skill there then Kun showed all in all its just so hard to form the idea into words here.

 

 

Edit2: I guess the question is what takes more Force power those rituals or telekinetically moving a Freighter..... can you say which is better with 100% certainty.

Edited June 26, 2013 by tunewalker

[SoonerJBD]

Well as far as I'm aware, they're were many exceptional circumstances involved. Mainly the fact that Caedus was trying to escape, and Jaina received an advantage before the duel began by impaling him in the stomach.

 

There was also never any direct display of Force abilities, mainly lightsaber combat. So we can only infer that Caedus is the superior lightsaber duelist, else he wouldn't be above Jaina on the list.

 

This is just false. Jaina impaled Caedus in the stomach by using her incredible force cloaking ability to get the drop on him. This speaks to her power in the force. Both of them used force powers as well as lightsabers in their final dual. It just came down to lightsabers in the end because it pretty much always does... one more reason high lightsaber ability is indicative of high force power. The telekinetic and lightning stuff is grand spectacle, but Jedi versus Sith usually comes down to who is better with a lightsaber.

[SoonerJBD]

I'm honestly not sure whether Vader should be on the list, I mean Jaina Solo should already be above him, as she defeated Caedus, whom we know was canonically stated as more powerful than Vader was.

 

I know, I know A>B>C logic isn't the best but I see no reason to believe it isn't true.

 

Vader at his peak was both one of the top lightsaber dualists and extremely powerful with telekinesis. These ranking lists are always tough, so who is to say anything for sure, but I would argue Vader is more powerful than Windu or Plagueis for sure.

[SoonerJBD]

A deep understanding of the force is raw power, what do you think ALL sorcerers use? you are making this arbitrary rule that knowledge in the force and raw power can't be combined for something greater.

 

I couldn't agree more. It's not as if some mediocre acolyte can learn a sith ritual and use it to gain incredible power. It takes an incredible amount of power in the force to perform these rituals. If someone not up to it tries, they will be driven mad. And frankly, this is the only thing that makes Vititate even remotely close to being on this list. Kun was also really good with a saber.

 

I do think it's tough to compare those from different eras. For example, we know that Jedi from the later eras are better with lightsabers, but this is in part because others perfected the forms and tactics in the past. Exar Kun was the first true master of Niman, if I remember right. The force power it takes to be the first to truly master a form is immense. Those who do it later get a head start because of the advancements made by their predecessors. This is also a good argument for Mace Windu. For all the people who claim Vaapad is some sort of amp, you have to understand that Mace invented it. You can't assume Plagueis would have been as good with it as Mace because Plagueis didn't have the power required to develop it as Mace did.

[tunewalker]

I couldn't agree more. It's not as if some mediocre acolyte can learn a sith ritual and use it to gain incredible power. It takes an incredible amount of power in the force to perform these rituals. If someone not up to it tries, they will be driven mad. And frankly, this is the only thing that makes Vititate even remotely close to being on this list. Kun was also really good with a saber.

 

I do think it's tough to compare those from different eras. For example, we know that Jedi from the later eras are better with lightsabers, but this is in part because others perfected the forms and tactics in the past. Exar Kun was the first true master of Niman, if I remember right. The force power it takes to be the first to truly master a form is immense. Those who do it later get a head start because of the advancements made by their predecessors. This is also a good argument for Mace Windu. For all the people who claim Vaapad is some sort of amp, you have to understand that Mace invented it. You can't assume Plagueis would have been as good with it as Mace because Plagueis didn't have the power required to develop it as Mace did.

 

If the "mediocre" acolyte some how learned and was able to understand the ritual to absorb the power of 8000 powerful sith as far as I can tell he would have no issue using it. Other then that last I checked we weren't talking about Mediocre people we were talking about the best of the best the top 10 which while rituals and knowledge may be indicative of power (not sure that they are) they are not indicative of HOW MUCH power that's the problem how to compare what was accomplished through ritual with what was accomplished with out one such as saber fighting so on and so forth.

 

And I could Argue Kun isn't really that great with a saber I wouldn't put him any better then the likes of most of the Pre-quell masters (under Windu) and definatly not on par with the likes of Jaina Caedus or many of the other best masters of the NJO the issue is its either rituals from Kun which while indicative of power they don't tell us much Lightsaber skill which I can name at least 10 people that are argueably better at then him and Dark side energy blasts that incinerate people something we know Plaegus can do with just telekinetic blasts so all in all he just doesn't quite sqeeze in there for me if this was a top 20 and you wanted to argue him for number 12 by all means argue away I probably would be willing to budge more its just I don't think he quite cuts it close..... but no cigar.

[Beniboybling]

I'd just like to point out the Sith Magic operates in the same way as any Force ability. While yes it requires both knowledge and affinity to be used ultimately the potency of the rituals is determined by how powerful the user is, like any other Force ability. So we cannot dismiss any feats Kun has performed with Sith magic unless their were exterior elements involved - and even then, they should be taken into account.

 

EDIT: That said Kun has only performed one ritual so really its largely irrelevant.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

This is just false. Jaina impaled Caedus in the stomach by using her incredible force cloaking ability to get the drop on him. This speaks to her power in the force. Both of them used force powers as well as lightsabers in their final dual. It just came down to lightsabers in the end because it pretty much always does... one more reason high lightsaber ability is indicative of high force power. The telekinetic and lightning stuff is grand spectacle, but Jedi versus Sith usually comes down to who is better with a lightsaber.

In other scenarios perhaps, but certainly not this one.

[tunewalker]

I'd just like to point out the Sith Magic operates in the same way as any Force ability. While yes it requires both knowledge and affinity to be used ultimately the potency of the rituals is determined by how powerful the user is, like any other Force ability. So we cannot dismiss any feats Kun has performed with Sith magic unless their were exterior elements involved - and even then, they should be taken into account.

 

EDIT: That said Kun has only performed one ritual so really its largely irrelevant.

 

Well if rituals are a big thing I know Plageus had a HUGE library of them so he may come in here but I don't know what he accomplished with them nor do I know how to compare them to normal powers because I have no basis for comparison with other powers still this means Kyp Mace and Plageus TO ME still out do most of anything I have seen from Kun. Just I don't which of the three come out where so again from what I have seen I still think Kyp and Mace are the top ones but its getting so close at this point that I will leave it to you guys to decide I have no new info realy.

[LadyKulvax]

The only ritual that Plagueis attempted to perform was in unison with Sidious' power to, but even then it failed to work the way he intended, they basically failed under his direction, but once Sidious was free himself, he could eventually accomplish far more on his own than he ever could with Plagueis.

[LadyKulvax]

If the "mediocre" acolyte some how learned and was able to understand the ritual to absorb the power of 8000 powerful sith as far as I can tell he would have no issue using it. Other then that last I checked we weren't talking about Mediocre people we were talking about the best of the best the top 10 which while rituals and knowledge may be indicative of power (not sure that they are) they are not indicative of HOW MUCH power that's the problem how to compare what was accomplished through ritual with what was accomplished with out one such as saber fighting so on and so forth.

 

And I could Argue Kun isn't really that great with a saber I wouldn't put him any better then the likes of most of the Pre-quell masters (under Windu) and definatly not on par with the likes of Jaina Caedus or many of the other best masters of the NJO the issue is its either rituals from Kun which while indicative of power they don't tell us much Lightsaber skill which I can name at least 10 people that are argueably better at then him and Dark side energy blasts that incinerate people something we know Plaegus can do with just telekinetic blasts so all in all he just doesn't quite sqeeze in there for me if this was a top 20 and you wanted to argue him for number 12 by all means argue away I probably would be willing to budge more its just I don't think he quite cuts it close..... but no cigar.

 

An acolyte cannot perform complex rituals, we know that already, they certainly couldn't perform a ritual in the vein of Vitiate or Exar Kun, both of them had to have incredible and dark willpower(otherwise they would have gone totally mad), they both had to dominate the minds of hundreds of thousands to accomplish this, so largely what we know of rituals seems to contradict your belief that rituals can be done by any bob, joe or dave.

 

Exar Kun is the first and only duellist to master Niman to it's highest degree, he also mastered Jar'Kai and he also was extremely proficient in Juyo and Ataru, the core of his style was based on Niman's ability to draw heavily on the force in lightsaber combat, then incorporated the incredibly unorthodox and even insane latent abilities in Jar'Kai and Juyo, always randomly switching blade length or even switching one blade on or off and he can and prefers to, use his weapon one-handed, with absolute ease and then incorporates the traditional Ataru athleticism but to such a degree that he flies around instead of just leaping about, If that is not indicative of a master duellist, as his legendary status maintains, then I dont know what is.

Edited June 26, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[tunewalker]

An acolyte cannot perform complex rituals, we know that already, they certainly couldn't perform a ritual in the vein of Vitiate or Exar Kun, both of them had to have incredible and dark willpower(otherwise they would have gone totally mad), they both had to dominate the minds of hundreds of thousands to accomplish this, so largely what we know of rituals seems to contradict your belief that rituals can be done by any bob, joe or dave.

 

Exar Kun is the first and only duellist to master Niman to it's highest degree, he also mastered Jar'Kai and he also was extremely proficient in Juyo and Ataru, the core of his style was based on Niman's ability to draw heavily on the force in lightsaber combat, then incorporated the incredibly unorthodox and even insane latent abilities in Jar'Kai and Juyo, always randomly switching blade length or even switching one blade on or off and he can and prefers to, use his weapon one-handed, with absolute ease and then incorporates the traditional Ataru athleticism but to such a degree that he flies around instead of just leaping about, If that is not indicative of a master duellist, as his legendary status maintains, then I dont know what is.

 

Oh ya he is a master duelist one that mastered Niman better then most any one before or after.... lets look at Masters of Niman during PT... they died at geonosis.... right there shows you ya if you want to compare him to other Niman users he is the best no doubt, but lets compare him to some one else you know some one he actually fought and he considered his near equal with a blade Ulic Qel Droma one of the earliest masters of Djem so this is where he falls apart we already know who the greatest masters of Djem So were and they weren't Ulic so if Kun is just barely above Ulic then the true masters of Djem So and any one near them with another form puts him to Shame and that's ultimately all I was saying again I know who he fights and trust me when I say there are weaknesses to holding a double bladed saber one handed but I compared him to his known timeline counter part and known people to have taken that persons form to the next lvl and what they did when you do that you find him at the top 20 duelist list not in a top 10. Again him making top 20 or top 15 probably top 10 no.

Edited June 26, 2013 by tunewalker

[LadyKulvax]

Oh ya he is a master duelist one that mastered Niman better then most any one before or after.... lets look at Masters of Niman during PT... they died at geonosis.... right there shows you ya if you want to compare him to other Niman users he is the best no doubt, but lets compare him to some one else you know some one he actually fought and he considered his near equal with a blade Ulic Qel Droma one of the earliest masters of Djem so this is where he falls apart we already know who the greatest masters of Djem So were and they weren't Ulic so if Kun is just barely above Ulic then the true masters of Djem So and any one near them with another form puts him to Shame and that's ultimately all I was saying again I know who he fights and trust me when I say there are weaknesses to holding a double bladed saber one handed but I compared him to his known timeline counter part and known people to have taken that persons form to the next lvl and what they did when you do that you find him at the top 20 duelist list not in a top 10. Again him making top 20 or top 15 probably top 10 no.

 

Wrong, flatly wrong, Ulic had already been using the Dark Side for some times, Exar Kun had only just switched and we know full well that Ulic admits Kun has quickly outgrown his own abilities, Ragnos didn't choose Kun just because his name sounded cooler, Kun had only just left the Jedi and gone through his trials at Korriban, he was matched on Teta, but soon afterwards he was growing way past Ulic was, his strength in Niman is reflected in his strength in the force, hence the name 'consular's form' Consulars that didn't have the time to train in a proper style simply went for the balanced form and used their force power to empower themselves, Kun threw away all thoughts of balance and moderation and replaced it with techniques in Juyo, Jar'kai and Ataru.

 

Your assertion that he was an inferior duellist because he drew for about five minutes against an already powerful Dark Jedi in the very beginning of his reign is clearly contradicted in the canon.

 

Your assertion that both his form and use of weapon are inferior is also completely false, he'd gotten rid of the negative aspects of Niman by replacing balance with pure aggression, now that takes a true master duellist, to replace parts of one form with elements from another, but to do it multiple times shows a clear mastery over lightsaber combat.

 

He had removed all the negative effects that we have seen exploited against a regular double-bladed lightsaber because the length of his hilt was only that of a single blade, which also made it far easier to handle and why his single-handed use was expert.

 

Regardless, his custom lightsaber form fitted him like a glove, his exponential growth in the force allowed for his duelling skills to get better and better and he also integrated his mastery over certain force powers to complement his style, especially that of force flight and his Force Blast technique, which was also unique to him and was lethal to anyone not already learned in the art of sith sorcery, which was why Aleema Keto managed to survive his attack, barely.

[tunewalker]

Wrong, flatly wrong, Ulic had already been using the Dark Side for some times, Exar Kun had only just switched and we know full well that Ulic admits Kun has quickly outgrown his own abilities, Ragnos didn't choose Kun just because his name sounded cooler, Kun had only just left the Jedi and gone through his trials at Korriban, he was matched on Teta, but soon afterwards he was growing way past Ulic was, his strength in Niman is reflected in his strength in the force, hence the name 'consular's form' Consulars that didn't have the time to train in a proper style simply went for the balanced form and used their force power to empower themselves, Kun threw away all thoughts of balance and moderation and replaced it with techniques in Juyo, Jar'kai and Ataru.

 

Your assertion that he was an inferior duellist because he drew for about five minutes against an already powerful Dark Jedi in the very beginning of his reign is clearly contradicted in the canon.

 

Your assertion that both his form and use of weapon are inferior is also completely false, he'd gotten rid of the negative aspects of Niman by replacing balance with pure aggression, now that takes a true master duellist, to replace parts of one form with elements from another, but to do it multiple times shows a clear mastery over lightsaber combat.

 

He had removed all the negative effects that we have seen exploited against a regular double-bladed lightsaber because the length of his hilt was only that of a single blade, which also made it far easier to handle and why his single-handed use was expert.

 

Regardless, his custom lightsaber form fitted him like a glove, his exponential growth in the force allowed for his duelling skills to get better and better and he also integrated his mastery over certain force powers to complement his style, especially that of force flight and his Force Blast technique, which was also unique to him and was lethal to anyone not already learned in the art of sith sorcery, which was why Aleema Keto managed to survive his attack, barely.

 

I never argued that Ulic was stronger then him this may be a moment where I wasn't clear again I appoligize for that but Kun did consider Ulic his NEAR equal with a BLADE something he had never experienced before in all his time as a jedi. The problem is and will always be when you compare what some one did you have to think who did they do it TO. I again am not saying he would have died at geonosis like all the other Niman users..... not saying this at all actually its why I am saying he is very clearly the best Niman user in history, but when you look at the people he fought what they used and what they knew and when you know that there were people who were vastly BETTER then the people he considered close seconds we know he falls apart.

 

For weaknesses with holding a double bladed saber with one hand...... the size of his hilt is to small for him to grab it 2 handed with out burning his hand right on off meaning any one with a sufficiently strong enough strike can not be full blocked by him he has to dodge to make it other wise a power blow will push right past his saber as he can not support it with a second hand this also means that he is unable to land any power blows of his own meaning that any one that is proficient in exceptional defense (looking at Obi-wan here) would likely be able to quite easily hold off his assault long enough for him to get tired. His strength in saber comes from his unpredictability with his shifting blade size unique lightsaber and of course his force power usage with it but that being said any one that inflict ACCURATE power blows (many later Djem So users) or have great precog abilities (every extremely powerful force user) or have exceptional defenses (Soresu users) will have an advantage against him.

 

 

And again he may have gotten more powerful since his match with Ulic but as far as I could tell he didn't get so much more powerful to make the match between the 2 a moot point its still a means of comparison of him to later Djem So users, and later force users, Since after all that is what this list is all about comparing people acrossed the ages and its one of the easy ways to do so for this reason like I said this is nothing against Kun I think he could make top 15 but the feats he has pulled off with Dark side energy blasts are the same as what Plaegus pulled off with a Telekinetic wave which it would require a whole lot more energy to do it with a TK wave to multiple people at once then it would to do a DS energy blast to one person.

Edited June 26, 2013 by tunewalker

[SoonerJBD]

For what it's worth, I like Nomi Sunrider at No. 9 and Exar Kun at 10.

[LadyKulvax]

I never argued that Ulic was stronger then him this may be a moment where I wasn't clear again I appoligize for that but Kun did consider Ulic his NEAR equal with a BLADE something he had never experienced before in all his time as a jedi. The problem is and will always be when you compare what some one did you have to think who did they do it TO. I again am not saying he would have died at geonosis like all the other Niman users..... not saying this at all actually its why I am saying he is very clearly the best Niman user in history, but when you look at the people he fought what they used and what they knew and when you know that there were people who were vastly BETTER then the people he considered close seconds we know he falls apart.

 

For weaknesses with holding a double bladed saber with one hand...... the size of his hilt is to small for him to grab it 2 handed with out burning his hand right on off meaning any one with a sufficiently strong enough strike can not be full blocked by him he has to dodge to make it other wise a power blow will push right past his saber as he can not support it with a second hand this also means that he is unable to land any power blows of his own meaning that any one that is proficient in exceptional defense (looking at Obi-wan here) would likely be able to quite easily hold off his assault long enough for him to get tired. His strength in saber comes from his unpredictability with his shifting blade size unique lightsaber and of course his force power usage with it but that being said any one that inflict ACCURATE power blows (many later Djem So users) or have great precog abilities (every extremely powerful force user) or have exceptional defenses (Soresu users) will have an advantage against him.

 

 

And again he may have gotten more powerful since his match with Ulic but as far as I could tell he didn't get so much more powerful to make the match between the 2 a moot point its still a means of comparison of him to later Djem So users, and later force users, Since after all that is what this list is all about comparing people acrossed the ages and its one of the easy ways to do so for this reason like I said this is nothing against Kun I think he could make top 15 but the feats he has pulled off with Dark side energy blasts are the same as what Plaegus pulled off with a Telekinetic wave which it would require a whole lot more energy to do it with a TK wave to multiple people at once then it would to do a DS energy blast to one person.

 

Your opinion is that because he fought earlier opponents that makes him weaker, yet the Jedi never tried to engage him again after he killed Vodo-Siosk Baas and Odan-Urr, they allowed him to walk right into the Senate Chamber rescue Ulic and slaughter the entire senate whom he had frozen in place with his mind, they didn't try and stop him, he was just too powerful to face for any one Jedi, his skills also became as legendary to the Sith as Nomi Sunrider's abilities became legendary for the Jedi.

 

And false, it's a single hilt, he can hold it with both hands easily and has done, he just prefers not to, again he uses the Dark Side of the force to fuel his aggression and his sheer speed, a single hilt can easily be held with two hands, where you got that it would be too small for him to wield with both hands I'd love to know.

 

And yes he did, Ulic says so himself, he even tells the Jedi after being severed from the force that Kun had grown more powerful than any of them could match, Ulic didn't get much better at all after his original fall, yet we know from the canon that Kun got exponentially more powerful after Ossus.

 

Also they are nothing like it Telekinetics against a couple of bobs and joes is not the same as ripping through the barriers of a force user and killing them, Darth Zannah used Dark Side energy created tendrils to sever Bane's arm off, Bane had no defence whatsoever against her attacks and we know that Kun had completely mastered the arcane Sith Magics including alchemy and sorcery, this shows in creating hordes of dark side war beasts like the Terentateks in his war against the Republic, something far beyond fancy telekinesis, disintegrating a force user with a wave of telekinetics would be impressive, an average joe? not so much. A force user could use his force barriers to defend himself against such an attack, they would have no way of defending against a Force Blast of pure dark side energy, summoned through sorcery, only the most learned Sith with an intimate knowledge of the same Sith magic that Kun learned from Nadd, such as Aleema Keto, could defend against it and only just barely.

[SoonerJBD]

Color me unimpressed with Plagueius. Other than fooling around with midchlorians, what exactly has he done that is impressive? Exar Kun nearly conquered the galaxy. Plagueius conquered a breakfast sandwich once, I think. All that stuff about manipulating midichlorians to create life and stave off death is nice and all, but dude got murdered by his apprentice and was so unremarkable the Jedi never even knew he existed. Admittedly, I haven't read the book on Plagueius, so someone enlighten me if you like, but I'm just not seeing it.

[tunewalker]

Your opinion is that because he fought earlier opponents that makes him weaker, yet the Jedi never tried to engage him again after he killed Vodo-Siosk Baas and Odan-Urr, they allowed him to walk right into the Senate Chamber rescue Ulic and slaughter the entire senate whom he had frozen in place with his mind, they didn't try and stop him, he was just too powerful to face for any one Jedi, his skills also became as legendary to the Sith as Nomi Sunrider's abilities became legendary for the Jedi.

 

And false, it's a single hilt, he can hold it with both hands easily and has done, he just prefers not to, again he uses the Dark Side of the force to fuel his aggression and his sheer speed, a single hilt can easily be held with two hands, where you got that it would be too small for him to wield with both hands I'd love to know.

 

And yes he did, Ulic says so himself, he even tells the Jedi after being severed from the force that Kun had grown more powerful than any of them could match, Ulic didn't get much better at all after his original fall, yet we know from the canon that Kun got exponentially more powerful after Ossus.

 

Also they are nothing like it Telekinetics against a couple of bobs and joes is not the same as ripping through the barriers of a force user and killing them, Darth Zannah used Dark Side energy created tendrils to sever Bane's arm off, Bane had no defence whatsoever against her attacks and we know that Kun had completely mastered the arcane Sith Magics including alchemy and sorcery, this shows in creating hordes of dark side war beasts like the Terentateks in his war against the Republic, something far beyond fancy telekinesis, disintegrating a force user with a wave of telekinetics would be impressive, an average joe? not so much. A force user could use his force barriers to defend himself against such an attack, they would have no way of defending against a Force Blast of pure dark side energy, summoned through sorcery, only the most learned Sith with an intimate knowledge of the same Sith magic that Kun learned from Nadd, such as Aleema Keto, could defend against it and only just barely.

 

OK so am I to understand what you are saying is you want to go off of statements made by characters instead of combat feats because he fought the people so early on that his fight against them doesn't matter for lightsaber combat and because the order recognized him and Ulic as superior duelists to all of them thus not sending any other lambs to the slaughter some how makes him better then we have seen him do?..... so what feats do you want to use for him... rituals creating beasts.... which we have no idea how much energy that took so using it is well pointless...... Average joes have the same amount of physical mass as a force user the only difference is as you said the force barrier which I am not sure the person he disintegrated had a great force barrier either so not saying much there either.... and from what I am understanding from what you are saying is that the technique ignored the force barriers any way since only people who could use the same magic could defend against it so technically him using it on a force user would be no different then hitting a joe shmo with it..... thus back to original argument about the TK feat since they would require the same energy (the Tk likely using more) just the energy would be focused in a different way...... I am failing to see your point most of what you are talking about is completely unquantifiable he can be 10% stronger then Ulic and still be considered exceptionally stronger it has no baring and is ultimately meaningless you aren't showing any feats essentially.

 

 

Edit: oh forgot awnser to where I was getting holding his lightsaber with 2 hands pretty much impossible

picture of him holding his saber at 1:46 he can not fit his second hand on the saber with the way his first hand is placed if he wanted both hands on it he would have to have both is hands practically touching and both of them dangerously close to each blade while he could for a moment he would ultimately run into holding a staff with hands that close greatly limiting the movement and actually might have less blocking potential then just holding it with one as the grip is incredibly akward and off balance... ultimately with such a small hilt holding it with both blades extended like a staff would be pointless and dumb thus where my he can only ever hold it with 1 hand thing now if he deactivated one of the blades and held it normal from time to time that would negate that...... on occasion but doing so would be incredibly slow and it would likely just be easier to dodge then to try a maneuver like that.

 

 

Essentially lots of questions to awnser and the more we talk about him the more confused I am becoming since I am not sure which feats you want to count and which ones you want to discount for the guy.

Edited June 26, 2013 by tunewalker

[LadyKulvax]

I have proposed feats, statements and abilities, all you have given in return to this debate is frankly little more than guess-work, no offence but that's what it seems like.

 

My proposal was put forward and I shall await judgement from the others like Beni, Wolf and Aurbere to continue this along, by seeing what he has accomplished via the force in the canon, he certainly should be on this list IMO, there are claims that the ritual is nothing more than that, a ritual and even claims that any Sith acolyte could do the same, both are flatly false, as Beni has stated as well, his ritual is if nothing else the culmination of his power.

 

He out-smarted the Jedi and became immortal, all the Jedi could do in return was encase him on Yavin IV with a Wall of Light, until he was awoken and wrecked the Praxeum, a further showing of his definitive command over the Dark Side is the fact he had the power to eventually reconstruct his own body with Sith alchemy and return anew, which is pretty frightening in my opinion, it would have meant he could basically switch form at any time he wished to, nothing like that has ever been achieved by a Sith.

[Beniboybling]

Plagueis vs Exar Kun vs Windu

 

Control:

 

Plagueis could manipulate midichlorians to kill beings or bring them back to life, and eventually discovered how to great life itself, as well as slow his own aging process and in doing so achieve immortality. He was also highly proficient in Force speed, described as a lightning bolt, as well as possessing the strength to rip people apart with his bare hands. He was also highly proficient with Force healing, capable of keeping himself alive and fighting despite suffering grievous injury. He also discovered how to become a Force ghost though had no intention of using it.

 

Mace Windu: was able to channel his immense Force ability into Vaapad which made him incredibly skilled in Force speed and once delivered six punches to a man before he could blink and could move his lightsaber so fast that even to a Force user it seemed as if he were wielding multiple weapons. And he could tear droids to pieces with his hands.

 

Exar Kun: was also a master of Force Rage, which he could use to augment his Force Abilities, on one occasion channeling his rage to destroy Force-imbued weaponry in a single lightsaber attack. He was also capable of unleashing and controlling this dark rage at will. He was also capable of using tutanimis to deflect Force blasts. Exar Kun also used a Sith ritual to bind his essence to Yavin 4 in essence form, he would later return in spirit form to influence the material world in devastating ways. Exar Kun was also capable of dark healing, however he has never been seen to use it.

 

I think Plagueis takes it in this department, he matches Windu in terms of speed and strength feats and whereas he may not have shown proficiency with Force Rage, his ability to manipulate midichlorians and repair his own body outstrips Exar Kun totally, midichlorians being Force imbued organisms that fight back, indicating an incredibly strong connection to the Force. I would ultimately declare Exar Kun and Windu equal, Kun possesses great ability with Force Rage yet Windu was equally capable of channeling the power of the dark side and amplifying his own abilities in general. With his potency as a Sith Spirit being largely a product of ritual.

 

Sense:

 

Plagueis had considerable powers of foresight before being infected by maxi-chlorians, able to foresee the coming of the Chosen One and Darth Sidious. He was also incredibly skilled in the use of telepathy, and used his highly attuned senses to observe midichlorians in action.

 

Windu had the innate ability to see Shatterpoints which he honed to a considerable extent.

 

Exar Kun had a strong Force sense and was able to communicate telepathically with Ulic over vast distances as well as sense the presence of dark siders from across the galaxy seemingly without external aid.

 

It is difficult to ascribe an edge in this department, but I'd give a slight edge to Plagueis, Shatterpoint is an innate ability. And while refined, Plagueis' highly attuned sense were even more refined and his telepathy quite exceptional. I also believe his abilities in foresight match Exar Kun's abilities in farsight. I'd say Windu gains a small edge over Exar Kun, simply because his mastery over Shatterpoint was so profound, whereas Exar Kun's talents are not wholly unique, though impressive.

 

Alter

 

Plagueis was able to generate Force waves that could vaporise multiple non-Force sensitive opponents with ease, screams that could shatter ear drums and lightning that could reduce opponents to ash. He was also able to collapse large tons of rock with lightning speed. And finally he was also capable, with the help of his apprentice, of manipulating the Force itself and shifting it notably to the dark side. He was also capable of mind control at a young age.

 

Windu was able to generate Force waves that could disable scores of battle droids and was able to push an AT-AT of a cliff with minimal exertion. He was also capable of easily incapacitating Jedi Master turned dark sider Sora Bulq with a simply Force Push.

 

Exar Kun: also possessed exceptional command over telekinesis, capable of easily incapacitating perhaps a dozen Jedi with a wave of Force energy, and killing powerful Jedi Master Odan Urr with a Force Crush. Exar Kun was also a mastery of Sith Sorcery, and in particular favoured use of the Force Blast. A powerful projection of pure dark side energy that could vaporize objects, opponents and even Force sensitives. An ability which Exar Kun used to incapacitate Aleema Keto, and destroy the spirit of Freedon Nadd. He was also capable of dominating and controlling the minds of non-Force sensitives with a Sith Spell - the strain of which resulted in the death of the victim, and was able to perform a mass Force stun to paralyse the entire senate.

 

In this field Windu and Plagueis seem equally matched, however considering that Windu's primary source (The original Clone Wars cartoon) is prone to exaggeration and he has not replicated his vaporisation feats in the Clone Wars I'd give a minor edge to Plagueis. Plagueis surpassing Kun as well as he could vaporize opponents instantaneously without a brief period to gather energies and without drawing on Sith Sorcery. However I'd place Exar Kun above Windu for the same reasons as Plagueis, and also because he has dominated more powerful Jedi.

 

Overall, I think Plagueis still takes it. Gaining the edge in all three categories. Next I would say Exar Kun given that he draws with Windu in terms of Control and while Windu gains a small edge in terms of Sense, it is small, and Exar Kun dominates in terms of Alter.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Beniboybling

[AlexDougherty]

Wrong, flatly wrong, Ulic had already been using the Dark Side for some time, Exar Kun had only just switched and we know full well that Ulic admits Kun has quickly outgrown his own abilities, Ragnos didn't choose Kun just because his name sounded cooler, Kun had only just left the Jedi and gone through his trials at Korriban, he was matched on Teta, but soon afterwards he was growing way past Ulic was, his strength in Niman is reflected in his strength in the force, hence the name 'consular's form' Consulars that didn't have the time to train in a proper style simply went for the balanced form and used their force power to empower themselves, Kun threw away all thoughts of balance and moderation and replaced it with techniques in Juyo, Jar'kai and Ataru. [

 

Not exactly, Exar Kun had been a darksider longer than Ulic, but Ragnos destroyed his ability to use the Lightside of the Force. Exar Kun was drifting into the Darkside from his first appearance, as was shown with his practice duel with a Cathar apprentice (who also had temper issues). He actually went properly darkside first, then pretended to be a Jedi Archeologist to gain access to Sith Artifacts, all before Ulic Qel'Droma lost his master. Ulic then went to the Tetans to gain intel on them, this is when Ulic fell into the Darkside, much later. Can't argue about the rest of your statement though.

[LadyKulvax]

I frankly believe Kun's ability to create War Beasts is being severely under-rated here, he created a horde to increase the potency of his armies' attacks, especially the Terentatek beasts.

 

EDIT: and if we're throwing out Jensaarai's videos:

Edited June 26, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

Color me unimpressed with Plagueius. Other than fooling around with midchlorians, what exactly has he done that is impressive? Exar Kun nearly conquered the galaxy. Plagueius conquered a breakfast sandwich once, I think. All that stuff about manipulating midichlorians to create life and stave off death is nice and all, but dude got murdered by his apprentice and was so unremarkable the Jedi never even knew he existed. Admittedly, I haven't read the book on Plagueius, so someone enlighten me if you like, but I'm just not seeing it.

'Fooling around' with midichlorians is nothing to scoff at. He is effectively imposing his own will on the Force itself. Bending a sentient, powerful entity to his command, an entity that is capable of fighting back. This does not simply require a working knowledge of microscopic organisms, but an immensely strong connection to the Force.

 

I also suggest you watch

for a further look at his Force abilities, note who he is being compared to - Yoda.