Death and Taxes world 1st nim tfb

[erschinger]

This has to be one of the dumbest QQ threads ever. They got world first on a few bosses... who cares? All that matters is who gets the world first clear and possibly the world first 2 hour clear. They surrendered their chance at the world first clear this week.

 

Either they were wrong and someone will clear DG and everything else and be world first, or they made a smart move and skipped a boss and got some gear. Skipping a boss doesn't change the fact they killed it first. Any good/serious progression guild would've done the same thing. Probably not until Monday night, but they would've done it.

 

You don't understand it.

If we are making a competion, you have to hold on the rules. If you don't want this, you are not in the competion.

If you are dopping in sport you are out of the Tournament.

 

But it seems sensless to discuss it here.

DnT can live in there dream world were you can skip all the points whenever it gets diffcult and call them self the best players. That's fine for me, but anytime they must wake up and face the ugly truth.

Edited June 14, 2013 by erschinger

[Treeba]

You don't understand it.

If we are making a competion, you have to hold on the rules. If you don't want this, you are not in the competion.

If you are dopping in sport you are out of the Tournament.

 

But it seems sensless to discuss it here.

DnT can live in there dream world were you can skip all the points were it becomes diffcult and call them self the best players. That's fine for me, but anytime they must wake up and face the ugly truth.

 

What rules? Where was this list of rules at before the tier started? Where did they say they were the best players?

 

They got world first on the last 3 bosses, nothing changes that. The world first full clear and 2 hour title run are still up for grabs though. If you're progression racing it doesn't matter what order you do it in, just who reaches the end points first and without exploiting. Skipping a boss hardly constitutes an exploit or Bioware will probably be talking to them very soon.

 

IF (and I do mean IF) DG is truly impossible right now they made a smart move for a progression race. They got gear that might allow them to kill DG next week and full clear. If it's killable they just screwed themselves.

 

If you just like working on extremely hard boss that's cool as well. Nothing wrong with that at all, but that isn't what a progression race is about.

[SebastiaanZ]

That there are people defending D&T while they obviously cheated to get a world's first...

 

Most of the community will never recognize this guild as being the first.

Edited June 14, 2013 by SebastiaanZ

[Movado]

Pure and SImple: NiM is broken. The last fight was broken...Bioware will fix this soon and Achievements will be wiped and hopefully it will be tuned for what was intended.

 

I'm not taking anything away from Death and Taxes however if it were my group I would not even call this a World First. Earn it and then call it out.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Movado

[bigheadbrandon]

The Gray Order recognizes DnT's accomplishments, while we are taking a "wait and see approach" and don't feel like going in on alts to do the same we applaud them for going forward to see the rest of the instance (and also clearing it) while other guilds slam their heads against the wall that is DG for no reason whatsoever.

 

Clearly it was bioware's intent to make the 2nd boss out of a 5 boss instance a fight nobody can clear with only one boss's loot to farm

[gtangtan]

Would love to see another guild makes more progress than DnT. otherwise all this complaining about them cheating and what not makes you sound petty.

[Koordynator]

Seriously, it takes non-hardcore guilds with 72 gear like max 2 tries to kill The Writhing Horror. Operator IX and Kephess seems not that much harder. So yeah... skipping DG and facerolling easy content is something to brag about. Well done!... oh wait, not really

[Ansalem]

Seriously, it takes non-hardcore guilds with 72 gear like max 2 tries to kill The Writhing Horror. Operator IX and Kephess seems not that much harder. So yeah... skipping DG and facerolling easy content is something to brag about. Well done!... oh wait, not really

 

excuse me? seems not that much harder? wasn't aware that you had cleared it so you would know first hand. FYI they did change a couple of things from PTS to make the fights more difficult. One thing to keep in mind we have been clearing this instance for 9 months now. We are all pretty familiar with the existing mechanics which makes it easier to clear, but this definitely isnt as easy as say HM. Phase 1 of operator fight is pretty great with the changes they put in. Phase 2 is still kind of easy though I will give you that. As for kephess the changes they made with adding an extra orb and with the speed/quanitity of nannites going out make it so if you have bad timing or coordination you are not going to down this boss. Its not on the level of say DG or even terror (though terror has the old bug again with enrage and tentacles) these fights still offer a challenge.

[PhiIl]

big gz to Death and Taxes

 

hier a little gift from me representing my hand

 

..l..

[FridgeLM]

What rules? Where was this list of rules at before the tier started?

 

The list of rules is the Nerd Honor Code, which conveniently favors the decisions of guilds of 100% of the people complaining about us.

 

Basically, if some guilds miss an opportunity because they make a bad decision, then other guilds who have seized the opportunity are dishonorable and nothing they do ever counts for anything.

Edited June 14, 2013 by FridgeLM

[Zyntharion]

The Gray Order recognizes DnT's accomplishments, while we are taking a "wait and see approach" and don't feel like going in on alts to do the same we applaud them for going forward to see the rest of the instance (and also clearing it) while other guilds slam their heads against the wall that is DG for no reason whatsoever.

 

Clearly it was bioware's intent to make the 2nd boss out of a 5 boss instance a fight nobody can clear with only one boss's loot to farm

 

I completly disagree with your point when you start talking about other guilds bashing their head against the DG's for no reason. The fight is extremly enjoyable and tight. And while frustrating at some points with the RnG and ridiculously tight enrage timer, it's exactly what my guild's been waiting for. You think that clearing it just like that on the first or second day of a new tier proves something? Maybe dedication, but if I see alot of guilds doing it then it's not something special regardless of how hard it's supposed to be.

 

Those guilds who are bashing on DG's right now are showing true dedication and stubborness that defines the hardcore progression raiding scene. Yet another WoW comparasion is paragon's 500+ wipes on ragnaros heroic. An insane number yet the kept pushing forward. Even thou it was the final boss of the instance and as such is expected to be as hard as you can imagine, that number is high.

 

I don't believe for a second that DnT is a bad guild. I'm pretty confident they're one of the best guilds currently raiding in Swtor. However calling the other guilds effort useless or stupid (No you didn't say it, but that's the impression you get) is not fair. We're doing it for a reason, why on earth would we do it otherwise? The content is hard and even thou you believe it's impossible or not worth it, it's a challange and we'll gladly take it.

[Ocho-Quatro]

I think this pretty well sums it up:

[Ansalem]

I think this pretty well sums it up:

 

except this isn't baseball so that example has no relevance here.

 

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

Albert Einstein

[Ocho-Quatro]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

Albert Einstein

 

Except this is a video game, not a high school or college science class, so your quote has no relevance here.

 

See what I did there? I am almost as clever as you.

 

EDIT: Check your quotes next time....

Most people will attribute this quote to Albert Einstein but there is no evidence to suggest that he made this statement.

 

This quote "Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results" appears in the Basic Text of Narcotics Anonymous which was copyrighted in 1982 and later published in 1983. It is found on page 11 of the final "Review Form" which was distributed to the fellowship in November of 1981. It is found on page 23 of the current sixth edition.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Ocho-Quatro

[Ansalem]

Except this is a video game, not a high school or college science class, so your quote has no relevance here.

 

See what I did there? I am almost as clever as you.

 

except you missed the point entirely. my example works and has relevance because of the situation. Guilds are in fact doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result or a victory. Your baseball reference has zero relevance because in mmos you can indeed skip bosses and finish the run. That's what those screenshots show you still get credit for the achievement you still went out and cleared something. Good day.

[Ocho-Quatro]

...you can indeed skip bosses and finish the run...

 

Yes, you are correct that the game allows for you to do that.

 

However, I fail to see, how skipping content should contribute to content-progression?

 

I am in no way trashing the fact that you guys downed Horror/Operator/Kephess (yes, Terror is bugged, no one is arguing that I think..) 90% of the guilds in this game, can't down those bosses in Hard Mode, let alone Nightmare, so it IS something worth acknowledging.

 

But you really have to admit, that in a content progression setting, SKIPPING content, because you deem it unbeatable, while other guilds are slowly whittling away at it.... 70%, 40%, 28%, and the most recent claim of 10%...... is kind of cheap. Dread Guard IS going to get beaten. It's going to get beaten in linear progression. And by skipping the content you deemed unclearable, to push ahead, while it's an accomplishment, it really taints the world rankings. I don't think any intelligent person could make a good argument to justify otherwise.

[Ansalem]

Yes, you are correct that the game allows for you to do that.

 

However, I fail to see, how skipping content should contribute to content-progression?

 

I am in no way trashing the fact that you guys downed Horror/Operator/Kephess (yes, Terror is bugged, no one is arguing that I think..) 90% of the guilds in this game, can't down those bosses in Hard Mode, let alone Nightmare, so it IS something worth acknowledging.

 

But you really have to admit, that in a content progression setting, SKIPPING content, because you deem it unbeatable, while other guilds are slowly whittling away at it.... 70%, 40%, 28%, and the most recent claim of 10%...... is kind of cheap. Dread Guard IS going to get beaten. It's going to get beaten in linear progression. And by skipping the content you deemed unclearable, to push ahead, while it's an accomplishment, it really taints the world rankings. I don't think any intelligent person could make a good argument to justify otherwise.

 

Skipping has been accepted format in mmos since they began (look at wowprogress). As for the guilds still going at it good for them I wish them the best of luck. If they find a way to down it without gearing up with 75s then good for them. Probability and math are working against them but I guess there is always that chance that they get the winning lottery ticket.

[Synavix]

The fact that people are disputing kills and claiming there is any sort of "cheating" going on is a complete joke, and is exactly why people don't take this game seriously in comparison to something like WoW. A lot of points that have been made for both sides are completely reasonable, but so many of these QQ posts are so childish.

 

Is skipping a boss to progress on another boss "cheap"? Sure, in a way.

Is it cheating? Not at all.

Does it invalidate their kills? Again, not at all.

Does it make them better or worse? No.

 

Choosing to deduct points or "hold off" on allowing a kill for the sake of a competition thread is certainly reasonable, but the people trying to act like they're morally right by not acknowledging DnTs kills are just being petty and childish. If a guild wants to prove they are better, they can do so. Go kill DG and prove it. No one remembers first kills on easy bosses, it's the hard ones that people care about. But to act like DnT was "wrong" in what they did is not the way to go about it. They killed a boss no one else had yet. Get over it.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Synavix

[TenderDeath]

I don't believe for a second that DnT is a bad guild. I'm pretty confident they're one of the best guilds currently raiding in Swtor. However calling the other guilds effort useless or stupid (No you didn't say it, but that's the impression you get) is not fair. We're doing it for a reason, why on earth would we do it otherwise? The content is hard and even thou you believe it's impossible or not worth it, it's a challange and we'll gladly take it.

 

For the record, I really want to see a guild defeat DG before the devs return from their vacation. Best of wishes to Suckafish! We will all be watching http://www.twitch.tv/maebeebuzz

 

This is the style raiding I was used to in WoW, and I'm jelly that my marauder is locked from that place. Like I said before, even if these guilds don't defeat DG in its current form, they will have the prestige of the lowest %'s. The place cannot be honorably finished because TFB is broken. DG is where it's at until they fix the Terror bug.

 

Face the music, though, we actually were at our keyboards and have gone through all the keystrokes that all of you will be going through to defeat Op9 and Kephess. To discount the accomplishment is extremely ignorant. People can shove progression pts where the sun don't shine for all I care, it still happened. And, it will happen again. Fixed or not. Because we are a great 8m raiding crew, and I would never quit my guild over the decision to skip because I would never find that type of synergy in this game. DnT is actually a very great group of players and on the surface people think that we are trolls and arrogant. It's mostly a front, we are civil and dedicated in reality.

[TenderDeath]

But you really have to admit, that in a content progression setting, SKIPPING content, because you deem it unbeatable, while other guilds are slowly whittling away at it.... 70%, 40%, 28%, and the most recent claim of 10%...... is kind of cheap. Dread Guard IS going to get beaten. It's going to get beaten in linear progression. And by skipping the content you deemed unclearable, to push ahead, while it's an accomplishment, it really taints the world rankings. I don't think any intelligent person could make a good argument to justify otherwise.

 

You need to direct your frustrations toward Bioware for creating this situation. The option to skip is in the game and is not a design flaw to them. They broke DG, just because it is challenging does not mean that it was intended. And, Terror is bugged. Do you think that we should be "testing" this content after PTS and a day and 2hr delay?

[Koordynator]

WORLD FIRST by Death and Taxes ! !

[Ocho-Quatro]

WORLD FIRST by Death and Taxes ! !

 

That's actually not right at all. Just because they skipped one of the hurdles, doesn't mean they skipped them all. They still DID clear the first, third, fourth and technically the fifth even though Bioware has it bugged atm. (Which certainly isn't DnT's "fault".)

 

Even though my previous posts in this thread hold to the standpoint that content-progression SHOULD be linear, I don't think DnT deserves to get crappy responses like yours above.

[TrillOG-]

In my personal opinion, no. Each boss is it's own scenario. It takes execution and coordination, no matter the political climate surrounding progression/killboards, to kill a boss. These kills came very easy to us in our current gear. You can hear us making adjustments on the fly and doing very rapid and disciplined attempts as a well founded raid squad.Terror is broken, and nobody, skipping or not, should qualify that boss as legitimate. You're welcome - for us wasting our lockouts to clearly record a bugged NiM Terror before Tuesday so the honor progression guilds may benefit from a fix before a linear clear.

OK yes I can agree with you on one thing and that is how each boss takes coordination, and effort to down. However I don't see how you can possibly claim 'world first' when you literally SKIPPED a boss. That is like going in NiM EC, and skipping the tanks then claiming world first. You don't get to just skip bosses that you have trouble with. I personally dont think the dread guard are as bugged as everyone thinks they are. It is just going to take time, and effort to down them instead of an hour on the release date. People have gotten them to what the 20s? Give it a week before calling things broken. Now the terror is a completely different story and is broken as all crap.

With all that being said still congrats for clearing 4/5 of the instance. Hopefully next week you guys can get the last.

Edited June 14, 2013 by TrillOG-

[FridgeLM]

I personally dont think the dread guard are as bugged as everyone thinks they are. It is just going to take time, and effort to down them instead of an hour on the release date. People have gotten them to what the 20s? Give it a week before calling things broken. Now the terror is a completely different story and is broken as all crap.

 

"I don't think dread guard are broken even though with the current enrage timer the encounter is well out of step with every other boss in the instance and the entire game. TFB is broken because that problem helped DNT."

 

That's basically what you're saying.

 

For the record, both fights are broken.

[TenderDeath]

OK yes I can agree with you on one thing and that is how each boss takes coordination, and effort to down. However I don't see how you can possibly claim 'world first' when you literally SKIPPED a boss. That is like going in NiM EC, and skipping the tanks then claiming world first. You don't get to just skip bosses that you have trouble with. I personally dont think the dread guard are as bugged as everyone thinks they are. It is just going to take time, and effort to down them instead of an hour on the release date. People have gotten them to what the 20s? Give it a week before calling things broken. Now the terror is a completely different story and is broken as all crap.

 

World first means nothing to me. But I'll be damned if people discount that we actually killed the bosses. In my personal opinion, I believe my guild should just abstain from the "Progression" tracking thread. It is clear that the general consensus is that it's linear. The situation was created by BW, nobody is at fault or should feel guilty for killing bosses.

 

We insist on treating the "Progression" thread as a "Killboard" thread. Our recordings and streams are there for everyone to see, time stamped and with no extra gear advantage. By circumventing the DG fight, I don't think my guild was even the slightest bit concerned with what people would think.