How many are giving up on Shadow tanks?

[THoK-Zeus]

Figured Olok out tonight, did it with PT/Sin, essentially had to offtank the fight.

 

Parse:

http://www.torparse.com/a/360519/28/0/Overview

 

When you said you had to offtank you mean you had problems with tanking Olok?

 

I think Olok does not hit very hard.

We have Lacerate a 7k unmigated f/t attack he mainly use (and which is dealing the most dmg). Other abilities to note: Missiles Blast (a 3k unmigated f/t attack) and Sticky Grenade (a 9k unmigated f/t attack which he seems to not use very often.). He has no high damaging abilites (contrary to f.e. kel'sara thrasher or kephess with 15k unmigated f/t attacks)

 

It looks like you wasted some of your force shrouds, but that was not the problem of this fight. Another thing i saw was that you did get a double Sticky Grenade hit (all the other times you didn't). That may be a bug, but as i don't have much Information about olok nim, i don't know. (I am referring to the log where you died and tanked olok, hope that is correct)

Overall the damage Olok does is laughable compared to other bosses (Thrasher , even twh). One thing to note: Olok is 100% f/t attack in nim, so force shroud will give you a full 5 sec immunity to all his damage (and deflection will be completely useless when tanking olok).

The problem with this boss is, that the bodyguards and the wealthy buyer are practically 100% m/r (on contrary)

Recon droids are : 100% f/t

Artillery droids are: 100% m/r (if you are not standing in aoe which is i/e)

Assault Droids are: 100% m/r

Olok is: 100% f/t

So it's really difficult to optimize your gear for this fight. I would say: If you have problems with first 2 phases go for more defense rating. If you have problems with third phase go for more shield/absorb. Split would be (if you're maintanking olok) 65/35 m/r / f/t.

If you really had problems tanking Olok, i assume it was 100% not your fault. He's one of the weakest boss fights (tanking wise) .

[Leafy_Bug]

I gave up on mine, no point when content becomes child play with two guardians or a guardian/vanguard combo. Why should I gimp my raid group for e-peen on the forums? People clear content while we wait for a good RNG run so I don't risk a wipe

[vVvCheese]

I gave up on mine, no point when content becomes child play with two guardians or a guardian/vanguard combo. Why should I gimp my raid group for e-peen on the forums? People clear content while we wait for a good RNG run so I don't risk a wipe

 

I don't do it for the e-peen, I just don't like playing the other tanks. I've offered countless times to DPS or heal, but they want me tanking, so they get the 'sin. *shrug*. At least we're mostly past the RNG stuff progression-wise.

[Leafy_Bug]

I don't do it for the e-peen, I just don't like playing the other tanks. I've offered countless times to DPS or heal, but they want me tanking, so they get the 'sin. *shrug*. At least we're mostly past the RNG stuff progression-wise.

 

I love tanking with my shadow as well. I have a 55 vanguard, cleared SV HM with it but it was a snooze fest. My guardian is 20 or something after 1 month of creation. I cannot get into leveling this and I cannot tank on anything else. I spoke to my progression team one night, we looked at the logs, numbers, damage required for NiM content, we failed to meet the target at Kelsara, so we decided on me going on my sentinel, putting my tank on hold as the benefit of me tanking is smaller than me doing damage. So now we roll with 1 Guardian 1 vanguard combo, 2 3k DPS sentinels (myself and a guildie) 1 3k+ commando and 1 3k slinger. We gained a lot in the damage department, 2 inspirations every 5 minutes and the healers now can afford to do damage as well in order to boost our overall raid numbers.

 

 

When the new shadow changes are on the PTS, I transfer my toon, I test them, i go on live, run the content and if the field is evening up, I will go back to tanking as it is the only thing I like in the game. At the moment I am useless in RWZ as a shadow tank and kind of useless in PVE compared to the others.

[vVvCheese]

When you said you had to offtank you mean you had problems with tanking Olok?

 

I think Olok does not hit very hard.

We have Lacerate a 7k unmigated f/t attack he mainly use (and which is dealing the most dmg). Other abilities to note: Missiles Blast (a 3k unmigated f/t attack) and Sticky Grenade (a 9k unmigated f/t attack which he seems to not use very often.). He has no high damaging abilites (contrary to f.e. kel'sara thrasher or kephess with 15k unmigated f/t attacks)

 

It looks like you wasted some of your force shrouds, but that was not the problem of this fight. Another thing i saw was that you did get a double Sticky Grenade hit (all the other times you didn't). That may be a bug, but as i don't have much Information about olok nim, i don't know. (I am referring to the log where you died and tanked olok, hope that is correct)

Overall the damage Olok does is laughable compared to other bosses (Thrasher , even twh). One thing to note: Olok is 100% f/t attack in nim, so force shroud will give you a full 5 sec immunity to all his damage (and deflection will be completely useless when tanking olok).

The problem with this boss is, that the bodyguards and the wealthy buyer are practically 100% m/r (on contrary)

Recon droids are : 100% f/t

Artillery droids are: 100% m/r (if you are not standing in aoe which is i/e)

Assault Droids are: 100% m/r

Olok is: 100% f/t

So it's really difficult to optimize your gear for this fight. I would say: If you have problems with first 2 phases go for more defense rating. If you have problems with third phase go for more shield/absorb. Split would be (if you're maintanking olok) 65/35 m/r / f/t.

If you really had problems tanking Olok, i assume it was 100% not your fault. He's one of the weakest boss fights (tanking wise) .

 

Once you get to Olok himself, it's pretty easy (and not the problem). Getting through artillery droids (especially with 2 sin tanks) is a challenge. Swapping a non-sin is a big improvement.

[THoK-Zeus]

Once you get to Olok himself, it's pretty easy (and not the problem). Getting through artillery droids (especially with 2 sin tanks) is a challenge. Swapping a non-sin is a big improvement.

 

Really?! i doubt that cause artillery droids dont really do much damage to the tank (6k unmigated m/r attack is really low tank damage.). The only damage is the red circle (10k i/e damage per hit!), probably you try to prevent that damage a bit more (force speed for example).

Tanking artillery droids is probably way more easy for sin and pts as they have a speed buff to run out of the circles and don't have to stand in melee range (like juggernauts) to get threat.

If you meant Assault Droids they hit for a lot (15 k unmigated m/r attack BUT split into 3 stacks of 5 k unmigated attacks so highly unlikely to get), but they are not really doing spiky damage aswell (as all there attacks are divided into small parts so rng is hardly playing a role here).

[vVvCheese]

Really?! i doubt that cause artillery droids dont really do much damage to the tank (6k unmigated m/r attack is really low tank damage.). The only damage is the red circle (10k i/e damage per hit!), probably you try to prevent that damage a bit more (force speed for example).

Tanking artillery droids is probably way more easy for sin and pts as they have a speed buff to run out of the circles and don't have to stand in melee range (like juggernauts) to get threat.

If you meant Assault Droids they hit for a lot (15 k unmigated m/r attack BUT split into 3 stacks of 5 k unmigated attacks so highly unlikely to get), but they are not really doing spiky damage aswell (as all there attacks are divided into small parts so rng is hardly playing a role here).

 

The artillery droid is roughly 17k unmitigated tank damage per second. It fires 3 times over the course of less than 1 second for unmitigated damage between 5500 and 6000 PER TICK. Then the 3 shots are fired again in the next second before it stops to cast an ion field (which ticks for ~10k, but should be avoided). I find it relatively hard to believe you have even seen the fight since you so quickly dismissed the artillery droids. The other droids are fairly easy to handle, and the adds on the final phase are simple to take care of. Tanking Olok, as well, is fairly easy.

 

In the kill parse I avoided tanking artillery droids as much as possible but if you flip through the same parse to the "all fights" tab and finds some wipes before Olok came out, you can see some lovely RNG spikes.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/360519/16/0/Log <----- 32k in under 2 seconds to essentially instagib me. *Yes I could have survived from full HP, but that's a relatively unreasonable expectation for the fight with the amount of raid damage that goes out*

[THoK-Zeus]

The artillery droid is roughly 17k unmitigated tank damage per second. It fires 3 times over the course of less than 1 second for unmitigated damage between 5500 and 6000 PER TICK. Then the 3 shots are fired again in the next second before it stops to cast an ion field (which ticks for ~10k, but should be avoided). I find it relatively hard to believe you have even seen the fight since you so quickly dismissed the artillery droids. The other droids are fairly easy to handle, and the adds on the final phase are simple to take care of. Tanking Olok, as well, is fairly easy.

 

In the kill parse I avoided tanking artillery droids as much as possible but if you flip through the same parse to the "all fights" tab and finds some wipes before Olok came out, you can see some lovely RNG spikes.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/360519/16/0/Log <----- 32k in under 2 seconds to essentially instagib me. *Yes I could have survived from full HP, but that's a relatively unreasonable expectation for the fight with the amount of raid damage that goes out*

I am not going for any feelings on any fights, just for numbers.

Yes i see in this parse now your 32 k hit (5 unmigated attacks out of 6 m/r attacks (probability: 1,6%) (was not listened as a boss fight so i did not see it).

That indicates that he's doing the roughly the same amount of damage as the assault droid is doing (3 5,5k hits per second). It's actually quite good that they did split the attacks, (unlike thrasher, kephess and kel'sara third Phase 15- 16 k single hits) to give assassins an edge.

If you find splitted attacks for 15k unmigated hits unfair, don't do the frog mini Boss in tfb hm for example (has almost the same frequence in hits and the same amount of damage).

[Leafy_Bug]

The artillery droid is roughly 17k unmitigated tank damage per second. It fires 3 times over the course of less than 1 second for unmitigated damage between 5500 and 6000 PER TICK. Then the 3 shots are fired again in the next second before it stops to cast an ion field (which ticks for ~10k, but should be avoided). I find it relatively hard to believe you have even seen the fight since you so quickly dismissed the artillery droids. The other droids are fairly easy to handle, and the adds on the final phase are simple to take care of. Tanking Olok, as well, is fairly easy.

 

In the kill parse I avoided tanking artillery droids as much as possible but if you flip through the same parse to the "all fights" tab and finds some wipes before Olok came out, you can see some lovely RNG spikes.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/360519/16/0/Log <----- 32k in under 2 seconds to essentially instagib me. *Yes I could have survived from full HP, but that's a relatively unreasonable expectation for the fight with the amount of raid damage that goes out*

 

 

 

Its funny to see how you support with numbers what we are saying yet its still not good enough. As I said before I thank you for your continuous efforts, my shadow parses wont happen until the class is changed a bit. I doubt i will be in the game that long tho. I got 12 days left out of my free time.

[vVvCheese]

I am not going for any feelings on any fights, just for numbers.

Yes i see in this parse now your 32 k hit (5 unmigated attacks out of 6 m/r attacks (probability: 1,6%) (was not listened as a boss fight so i did not see it).

That indicates that he's doing the roughly the same amount of damage as the assault droid is doing (3 5,5k hits per second). It's actually quite good that they did split the attacks, (unlike thrasher, kephess and kel'sara third Phase 15- 16 k single hits) to give assassins an edge.

If you find splitted attacks for 15k unmigated hits unfair, don't do the frog mini Boss in tfb hm for example (has almost the same frequence in hits and the same amount of damage).

 

The assault droid hits for roughly 1k less per tick and at a slower, more constant rate. Whether an attack is split or not is actually not relevant when the damage is not immediately fatal (huge grenade as one attack for ~60k unmitigated, for example, would be a problem as it becomes a binary live or die situation), because while it does decrease the possibility of the worst case scenario (and smooths the damage profile), the worst case scenario STILL EXISTS. This scenario does NOT exist for other tanks. Therein lies the actual issue.

 

Also as far as your parallel to the frog boss, that's a much different scenario as there is no mechanic to it, you take X amount of non-fatal damage per second + Y amount of non-fatal damage per second to the raid, if you can heal through it you get free credits/mats. That's a binary healing and mitigation test, which every tank passes. In fact, if the damage from a boss like Olok was smoothed out to be just like a frog boss, assassins would, on average, outperform every other tank on average time to death given a sufficiently large health pool. When damage comes in large doses with down-time (which is how most fights this tier like to deliver damage), the other two tanks outperform the assassin because of a better worst-case scenario (ie: not a binary living/dead state), and the jugg further outperforms the assassin because any downtime allowing them to recover a cool down improves their mitigation drastically.

 

A greater than 2% (when adding in 6/6 unmitigated and 2/6 or 1/6 shielded) chance of getting nearly instagibbed by the add designed to be "kited" while "more important" targets are taken down makes for unpleasant nights of wipes beyond the control of the tank.

 

To put this in perspective, if a sin/shadow takes just 5 flurries from an artillery droid without a cooldown (not that this should happen in one pull, but there are definitely flurries that have to be taken without a CD on occasion), there is a roughly 9.6% chance that one will do 30k+ damage (which, when taken in the grand scheme of damage going out may or may not be healable). Let's extend that out further and assume you're running two assassin/shadows. There are roughly 4 artillery droids per pull. If it takes you 10 pulls to kill the boss, and in each one of these pulls just ONE set of attacks from an artillery droid is tanked without a cooldown, there is almost a TWENTY PERCENT chance that one of your tanks is getting instantly, or nearly instantly killed. This doesn't factor in the chances of getting unmitigated strings through cooldowns like deflection, which while unlikely, certainly occur.

 

Assassins can do everything in the game. They are also rather prone to randomly blowing up.

[Yngow]

I don't understand, people ask for mathematical proof and we give them, then they ask for logs and numbers and we give them, them they say we suck at the game or even worse, that the healers in our groups suck. they just refuse to see the huge amount of evidence thrown at their faces.

If you want another parse this is from hardmode S&V olok the shadow on the bodyguards (which should be a cakewalk, never had problem on that phase with any of my other tanks)

23:14:54.412	103s	Wrist Laser Burst	3349 kinetic	No	Bodyguard
23:14:54.413	103s	Wrist Laser Burst	0	No	Bodyguard
23:14:54.413	103s	Wrist Laser Burst	6603 kinetic	No	Bodyguard
23:14:54.910	103s	Melee Attack	4269 kinetic	No	Bodyguard
23:14:55.822	104s	Lunge	13206 kinetic	No	Bodyguard

27427 dmg in 1 second, my total health is something like 33500 with buff and rakata stim (what I was using at the time), and it could have been worse because I shielded one attack and defended the other

http://www.torparse.com/a/353721/13/0/Damage+Taken

 

Also please pay attention, NO ONE is saying shadows make it impossible to clear content, it is perfectly doable and I cleared myself every hm operation in game with it, what we are saying is that shadows have a possibility of getting RNG deaths that even if that possibility is small it is still there and it makes progression harder while the other tanks simply don't have to deal with that problem and that makes them an easier choice for progression, unless you want a shadow as an offtank forever so he gives debuffs to bosses the other tank is tanking and also gives everyone stealth rezes, phase walks and sometimes soaks some dmg spike with resilience but this is very stupid, its as stupid as say making a tank class in pvp useful only for guarding nodes instead of actually tanking (oh wait, thats shadows too).

[vVvCheese]

I don't understand, people ask for mathematical proof and we give them, then they ask for logs and numbers and we give them, them they say we suck at the game or even worse, that the healers in our groups suck. they just refuse to see the huge amount of evidence thrown at their faces.

If you want another parse this is from hardmode S&V olok the shadow on the bodyguards (which should be a cakewalk, never had problem on that phase with any of my other tanks)

23:14:54.412	103s	Wrist Laser Burst	3349 kinetic	No	Bodyguard
23:14:54.413	103s	Wrist Laser Burst	0	No	Bodyguard
23:14:54.413	103s	Wrist Laser Burst	6603 kinetic	No	Bodyguard
23:14:54.910	103s	Melee Attack	4269 kinetic	No	Bodyguard
23:14:55.822	104s	Lunge	13206 kinetic	No	Bodyguard

27427 dmg in 1 second, my total health is something like 33500 with buff and rakata stim (what I was using at the time), and it could have been worse because I shielded one attack and defended the other

http://www.torparse.com/a/353721/13/0/Damage+Taken

 

Also please pay attention, NO ONE is saying shadows make it impossible to clear content, it is perfectly doable and I cleared myself every hm operation in game with it, what we are saying is that shadows have a possibility of getting RNG deaths that even if that possibility is small it is still there and it makes progression harder while the other tanks simply don't have to deal with that problem and that makes them an easier choice for progression, unless you want a shadow as an offtank forever so he gives debuffs to bosses the other tank is tanking and also gives everyone stealth rezes, phase walks and sometimes soaks some dmg spike with resilience but this is very stupid, its as stupid as say making a tank class in pvp useful only for guarding nodes instead of actually tanking (oh wait, thats shadows too).

 

Just as a point, you weren't healed with anything but an emergency medpac for over 10 seconds, there was sufficient time to be healed through that spike, and posts from HM that indicate a spike issue actually clouds the issue that the high level sin/shadows are trying to point out. A 27k spike on an assassin at 33k using stims that were not level-appropriate gives no support to the sin issue. If spikes like you took here were appropriately scaled to NiM there'd be no issue at all.

[Yngow]

Just as a point, you weren't healed with anything but an emergency medpac for over 10 seconds, there was sufficient time to be healed through that spike, and posts from HM that indicate a spike issue actually clouds the issue that the high level sin/shadows are trying to point out. A 27k spike on an assassin at 33k using stims that were not level-appropriate gives no support to the sin issue. If spikes like you took here were appropriately scaled to NiM there'd be no issue at all.

 

That was a terrible pug run, but thats pretty much all I do with my shadow these days alt runs and pugs, I posted that just to show that those things happen, in a guild run I'd never have died on that but the fact that you can get such a high spike in a character with full 69 min/maxed and some 72 gear in an instance where full 69's is the requirement (actually not even that) is stupid. It doesnt really matter if we're talking about hm, sm, operations or flashpoints, if you are doing content with appropriate gear (not over or under geared) and the issues appear this is a design flaw. Also notice that I defended and shielded a couple of attacks on that log, that means it was supposed to be even worse.

Granted my hp was low because in order to reduce the RNG effects I'm using high mitigation crafted ears/implants and 66 enhancements with higher mitigation budget till I can replace everything with underwold, but I find this better because since I switched those things I noticed better survivability (but when the spikes do happen they are even more fatal due to low health pool).

At the beginning I thought that the shadow tank problem was a gear tier problem and it would be solved when we got higher tiers with better budgets but now I just think that, while it will lower the chance of said spikes happening, it will probably make those spikes even deadlier when they do happen

Edited July 30, 2013 by Yngow

[MillionsKNives]

Also as far as your parallel to the frog boss, that's a much different scenario as there is no mechanic to it, you take X amount of non-fatal damage per second + Y amount of non-fatal damage per second to the raid, if you can heal through it you get free credits/mats. That's a binary healing and mitigation test, which every tank passes.

 

Except, you know, when an assassin with 36k health takes 37k partially mitigated damage (47k unmitigated) in the first 3.2s and falls over dead.

[vVvCheese]

Except, you know, when an assassin with 36k health takes 37k partially mitigated damage (47k unmitigated) in the first 3.2s and falls over dead.

 

I think you misunderstood, the frog boss isn't spiky at all. He's essentially a DOT in boss form. Every tank passes the non-fatal dot test (theoretical name I just made up), where no pre-mitigation damage ever exceeds their total hit points in a given interval.

 

Over a sufficiently long period of these types of "tests" assassins always come out ahead of the other tanks, as per design. The problem is that damage in TOR is typically nothing like this, the frog and Crusher on KP are fights with damage profiles similar to this test, though.

[MillionsKNives]

I think you misunderstood, the frog boss isn't spiky at all. He's essentially a DOT in boss form. Every tank passes the non-fatal dot test (theoretical name I just made up), where no pre-mitigation damage ever exceeds their total hit points in a given interval.

 

Over a sufficiently long period of these types of "tests" assassins always come out ahead of the other tanks, as per design. The problem is that damage in TOR is typically nothing like this, the frog and Crusher on KP are fights with damage profiles similar to this test, though.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you claiming that the above can't happen, or that it's not a spike? Do you think it's appropriate to fall on your face in the first 3.2 seconds of a fight because of RNG?

[msfyoung]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you claiming that the above can't happen, or that it's not a spike? Do you think it's appropriate to fall on your face in the first 3.2 seconds of a fight because of RNG?

37k in 3s shouldn't kill you with competent healers...

[MillionsKNives]

37k in 3s shouldn't kill you with competent healers...

 

How about in the first 3.2 seconds when they're still casting their puddles to keep the rest of the group alive. And that was with shielding two of the attacks, and avoiding the last one altogether (being dead and all).

 

Seems a lot of blame keeps getting put on the healers when it comes to shadows/sins when a guardian or a vanguard would have survived the same thing just fine.

Edited July 30, 2013 by MillionsKNives

[vVvCheese]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you claiming that the above can't happen, or that it's not a spike? Do you think it's appropriate to fall on your face in the first 3.2 seconds of a fight because of RNG?

 

Of course not. Assassins being TOO spiky is the point I've been making in this thread (well others have made the point and I've supplied the data to show that it is, in fact, the case that they are spiky). I was pointing out that in a theoretical fight with flat damage (that does not have the capability to one shot), which is similar to the frog in Asation or the Crusher fight in KP, assassins are the best at mitigating damage due to the highest mitigation average. If being one-shot (or nearly one-shot) was in some way impossible (which is the fix I want for assassins in fact, a talent that reduces unmitigated damage by a certain percent, perhaps tied to shelter, or to conspirator's cloak/shadow wrap to prevent the one-shots and flatten our profile a bit, or a one-time revive or 99% damage reduction when hit for X% of our HP in a certain short period).

 

37k in 3s shouldn't kill you with competent healers...

 

Excellent burst healing from a merc hits about 7kHPS, and that's assuming they were pre-casting. OPs are about the same, and sorc bubble + innervate is similar as well. You would need 2 healers tunneling you from full health to survive that assuming there is any follow-up damage at all, and they'd be ignoring the raid.

Edited July 30, 2013 by vVvCheese

[msfyoung]

Excellent burst healing from a merc hits about 7kHPS, and that's assuming they were pre-casting. OPs are about the same, and sorc bubble + innervate is similar as well. You would need 2 healers tunneling you from full health to survive that assuming there is any follow-up damage at all, and they'd be ignoring the raid.

36k hp surviving 37k over 3s requires one dot/bubble/whatever. Followup damage is assuming facts not in evidence - if there's followup it should be provided so we can determine if it is in fact not possible to heal. I responded only to the statement of 37k in 3s, which is not a problem.

Edited July 30, 2013 by msfyoung

[vVvCheese]

36k hp surviving 37k over 3s requires one dot/bubble/whatever. Followup damage is assuming facts not in evidence - if there's followup it should be provided so we can determine if it is in fact not possible to heal. I responded only to the statement of 37k in 3s, which is not a problem.

 

You're living in that special place I call "theory land". There is no source of damage in the game that has absolutely no follow up that's of any concern in current content. In your special theory land I should require no heals at all from anything since nothing in the game actually bursts through all my HP at once since I have nearly 40k (all low endurance 72s, 1 BiS piece of 75s, 1 good 75 enhancement, and 1 high end 75 mod).

 

These spikes are ALWAYS coming in amongst other damage, including raid damage.

 

Theory land is lovely for assassins, I should vacation there sometime.

 

Oh and the followup damage is IN the evidence, I'm the one with the parses.

Edited July 30, 2013 by vVvCheese

[msfyoung]

Oh and the followup damage is IN the evidence, I'm the one with the parses.

They're in evidence when they have been presented to the court, or in this case the forum, not because they're sitting on your HDD.

 

Once again, I responded to someone claiming that 37k damage in 3.2s resulted in a dead toon. This is only possible with bad healing. You are trying to make a general point about spikiness which is not what I commented on.

[vVvCheese]

They're in evidence when they have been presented to the court, or in this case the forum, not because they're sitting on your HDD.

 

Once again, I responded to someone claiming that 37k damage in 3.2s resulted in a dead toon. This is only possible with bad healing. You are trying to make a general point about spikiness which is not what I commented on.

 

Post #250 in this thread, and then again referenced in #257.

 

You're either not reading the thread or trying to cherry pick to win a forum argument. Either way, not really worth the effort to persuade. The problem, with both the tanking situation and the magnitude of potential damage has been pretty clearly presented over the course of the thread. Your net contribution to this thread would increase dramatically if you didn't reopen it.

[Yngow]

Also the fact that you can survive is nothing, yes you can survive but the spikes are very frequent and not predictable, a pt for example due to the small amount of cooldowns will eventually take a high spike but that is predictable and the raid can be ready for it, the tank just needs to say he's out of cds and a big dmg is incoming (due to smooth dmg profile you can predict high spikes on pts easily). A shadow on the other hand can take a spike at any time which makes it really hard to be ready for it with a cd or a healer assistance, that makes shadows require a healer to babysit him and treat him as if every situation was a high dmg situation, which could lead to tunnel vision (and other raid members dieing) or even situations where you cannot heal because of mechanics and the tank dieing (healer in a nightmare, healer with firebug on thrasher, healer lost on dash....).

[Berjiz]

How about in the first 3.2 seconds when they're still casting their puddles to keep the rest of the group alive. And that was with shielding two of the attacks, and avoiding the last one altogether (being dead and all).

 

Seems a lot of blame keeps getting put on the healers when it comes to shadows/sins when a guardian or a vanguard would have survived the same thing just fine.

Then you could probably use overcharge saber. Gives heal and dr, perfect for stuff like that.