pulling agro question in raids

[AAAAzrael]

That's kind of funny, the boss is immune while he's shooting the laser (at least in 16m, I guess 8m could be different)

 

LOL. That would be funny. Dunno about 8-man/16-man difference.It was 8-man for sure with 2xsentinel 2x commando. But they would still get more DPS uptime. Just the margin is so incredibly tight.....

[deceptweb]

Thunderdome!

 

Two men enter(okay 1 man, everyone knows grim is a machine), one leaves.

Edited May 31, 2013 by deceptweb

[Larry_Dallas]

Ignoring defense in favor of shield/absorb is gimping your mitigation by a VERY significant margin. That's your choice, and if you really want to play the game in that way I have no objections, but dispel any illusions you have that it is optimal in any sense of the word.

 

Wait a minute. Vanguard tanks should be stacking defense? Huh. What number should we be shooting for before we start worrying about shield and absorb?

[AAAAzrael]

Wait a minute. Vanguard tanks should be stacking defense? Huh. What number should we be shooting for before we start worrying about shield and absorb?

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=616779

[deceptweb]

oh boy...

[KeyboardNinja]

Wait a minute. Vanguard tanks should be stacking defense? Huh. What number should we be shooting for before we start worrying about shield and absorb?

 

The thread with the optimal stat distributions was linked. Basically, if you're in the Underworld tier, you should start pushing up your absorb quite a bit. Before that, defense is pretty boss. The best way to determine though is to read the linked post.

[grallmate]

Yes, apparently you do not. Let me teach you something. When Kephess puts the debuff on Tank A, he targets the next highest threat on his threat table (Ideally that would be the OT, but OT's tend to be lazy so it is usually a dps). After Tank A Clears his debuff, he then has his full amount of threat again (He never looses his threat, his threat is just ignored for the duration of the debuff). Let's assume Tank B taunts just before the debuff goes out. What will happen is Tank B will be placed on top of the threat table and Tank A will be #2. Tank B will have his threat ignored until his debuff is cleared. Tank A would then have aggro on Kephess; unless Tank A taunts Kephess after he puts the debuff out, odds are Tank B will pull highest threat soon as the debuff is cleared which will cause Kephess to snap in his direction...In any event, it makes no difference. You are arguing the use of taunt stacking to hold threat and not an individual tanks ability to hold threat (skill and class mechanic wise).

 

Odds are not that Tank B will pull threat as soon as the debuff is cleared in that scenario as Tank A is still generating threat while tank B is clearing the debuff so tank B is no longer over 30% above the highest threat when he re-enters the threat table.

 

Please tell me which tank suffers in the threat department when they are not actively tanking the boss. I know of no consistent tanking damage reflects that are vital to threat generation in this game. I mean a case may be able to be made for Guardians for their reflect; BUT that only covers Ranged, Force and Tech attacks. If memory is correct Kephess has 1 ranged "rail shot-like" attack that is normal for him. The only case that can be made is for Shadows. That case is they get force regen when then Dodge, Parry or Shield an attack. Without that regen, they have to use a basic attack in their rotation to sustain force levels. But let's be serious........it doesn't break them. Verdict: OT are lazy and need to play better; but who cares, they have an insta threat button.

 

EVERY tank. Guardians lose out on 1 Focus every 3 seconds and cannot build Courage stacks or proc Riposte quickly without being attacked. That's up to 10(!) Focus per 12 seconds along with 2 uses of Riposte. Shadows lose out on a HUGE amount of Force Regen when not being attacked while Vanguards need to shield attacks to reset Stockstrike, regen Ammo and effectively proc Power Screen attacks for Energy Blast.

 

Yes! I do realize the end of the first pillar is a PERFECT time to taunt Kephess! For soo many tanking mechanic and threat pull reasons. However, we aren't really discussing when a boss should be taunted in relation to mechanics. We are discussing the capabilities of a tank to actually hold threat within the beginning of a fight. I say at least 50% of the time dps can and will rip off of a tank and the tank would not have been able to do anything BEFORE it. Keyboarninja is of the opinion that a tank can do something before it in a static rotation.

 

I'm of the opinion that KBN is correct *MOST* of the time in relation to this. However if a DPS is KNOWINGLY generating more threat than the tank possibly can the fault lies on that DPS, not on the tank.

 

You obviously do not dps or push a dps class. It is better for DoT classes to hold back CD's until they can hit their big moves so there are more big moves in the CD window. For Slingers, it is just before the 4th GCD. For Sages, it is at GCD 1 (or two, depends on how they are opening but no later then 2). Just because the Power Boosts are delayed does not mean you will have it easy establishing a threat margin greater then dps. It means you have that amount of time to watch the dps make your life miserable. If you used dps relics and adrenals as a tank, you may have a fighting chance, but that just makes mitigation stats go bye bye...........not the smartest thing in NiM.

 

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. Delaying the Power boosts means that it is explicitly easier to establish threat as a tank thanks to the exponential nature of threat boosting and the percentage based aggro rip mechanic.

 

Front loaded damage is any hard hitting damage that can be done in an instant at the beginning rather then built up. Your whole methodology of GCD 4+ being the safe zone is inaccurate. In a previous post I highlighted what would happen if a "perfect" Shadow rotation was to go up against my dps. The result, me tanking. You may argue your taunt placement will save you. That is right if you use it after I pull threat. Stockstrike + HiB is a hard hitting combo, not to mention if they set up some burst with a grenade when you do your "Free Saber Throw" stacking their burst even more.......

 

There our definitions differ slightly. I consider 'front loaded' to be essentially zero set up. Combat Sentinel and Focus Guardian are excellent examples of this.

 

You say you work your dps rotation around the tanks threat thresholds. That is nice of you, but nerfing the damage you do. Our discussion here assumes dps is doing their BEST rotation by putting out the maximum damage. We agree on the fact that to limit a dps's ability to deal damage, you are forcing them to be infective. We agree that that is bad and we are not going to do it.

 

We do not agree on that fact. A DPS only needs to pull enough DPS to beat the enrage timer. Anything above that is nice and makes the fight go faster but isn't necessary. Asking a DPS to hold back slightly on the opener doesn't make them ineffective, letting them die because they are too stubborn to do that certainly does though. It does reduce how much they can stroke themselves but to be perfectly honest, most fights are not a good representation of true DPS. Either they have adds which are used to artificially inflate DPS numbers, or they have downtime. If you want to stroke yourself go parse on a dummy.

 

Why thank you! I probably am. I am only missing 1 Relic (I use a PvP one and there was that bug, but let's not dwell). I am full BiS 72, yes that means all my enhancements are the "good ones". But sadly, that gear doesn't mean a lot if I couldn't handle my class. My point is, I was using an average training dummy parse to give numbers for comparison. I was not stacking the deck in my favor. In an operation, well.............you f****ing stack the deck in favor of your dps by putting Sentinels in their group and not the healers. In my numbers WITHOUT the deck stacked in my favor, I am still ripping of a tank doing their "maximum threat possible" rotation. If you stack the deck in my favor, you just make my case for me due to my increased TPS.

 

Oh btw, what does having a Combat Sentinel have to do with being the best geared dps in the game?

 

In your numbers that are skewed by a precast Flyby and fully CD usage. If you have a Combat Sentinel popping Inspiration on the pull those numbers would be higher, if you have a non-Combat Sentinel those numbers (on the pull) would be lower since you freely admit that waiting for Inspiration is a better use of those CDs.

 

I am going to have fun with this one.

 

This "Free Saber Throw" you are talking about is not a benefit to you. It comes from you INITIATING combat. Every tank has an ability they do first. Just the other two tanks can do 8k threat first vs your 2k (maybe)....

 

So, still on the "effective TPS" idea......let's, for a moment, discuss EHPS (Effective Heals Per Second). EHPS is the amount of heals done to a target(s) that fills their health bar up to and no more then 100%. A healer with a massive amount of over heals (heals given to a target that is at full health) is either healing the wrong target or spamming AoE's. A healer will use EHPS to see how much damage they are actually healing and what abilities are not really giving a target health. This is why it is called "Effective". Now back to Threat.............all threat is effect given a single target. The tank must have the MOST effective threat (highest) in order to control the boss. A tanks threat will always be measured in effective threat. Now a dps can have "wasted" threat (if there is such a thing) or rather a lower "Effective" threat then their actual threat. This happens when a dps dot's up a target then tab targets and repeats. It can also happen if a dps uses their higher priority rotation on one target and then their "fillers" on a second target. There are other cases where dps can spread out damage. In the spreading of damage, their overall threat is high but their ETPS is low realative to each individual target.

 

Ok, so in the quote above...the bolded/red statement. Yeah that one.....You admit to a dps being able to generate more threat then a given tank! That was kind of one of my points. It is possible and does happen! You claim a good dps is nice to the tanks, we say a good dps pushes the damage his class can do (and stands in the red and LoS's healers ofc ). I say a good tank knows how to watch the "Target of Target" frame and SOON as it is not on him, he taunts --> DPS threat drops and you win. By your definition of a good dps, you (in effect) ask the dps to do LESS damage then he can/should be doing because YOU can't manage the threat. What does that make you?...asking someone to make your job easier..........................Did you complain about HM LI when it was released? (I apologize, that was taking it too far)

 

When looking at a race between 2 people do you count the 10 minutes of warming up one person does or do you just look at the actual race between the 2? Saber Throw is essentially the warm up and the race begins with Leap. You can argue semantics (that you don't seem to understand) or you can make a circular argument with a different definition of effective TPS. That's like me saying the sky is blue, and you arguing that the clouds are white. They're vaguely similar but it's not even discussing the same concept.

 

As I mentioned later on though, TPS is really a useless measure, we're more interested in total threat at a given time point and if that is above the 'rip aggro' threshold.

 

Now on to that last little bit there about Gunslinger in melee range. I play a Saboteur Gunslinger. We have this nifty thing called Scatter Bombs that I get 25% of my damage from. I need to be in melee range, position, time and then roll 18 meters and get all 5 bombs to hit the boss (I have to perform tricky roll in places on humanoid or small hit box targets). Because of this, I am in melee rage a good portion of the time; especially on the open when I roll twice.

 

You roll 18 meters, the melee threat range (at its widest point) is only 8m, thats 4m either side of the center of the boss model. Melee range for the purposes of aggro ripping are measured from the center of the boss model. The range on your target window is measured to the edge. On any boss (that's not against a wall) where you can effectively be inside that threshold you are getting MAYBE 3 of your bombs instead of 5. On a larger boss if you are inside that threshold you end up or started ATLEAST 14m away from the center of the boss.

 

On to the bit about Combat! You are inaccurate saying "every second they're (Spelling? ) in combat and delaying their opener they have a chance to proc HoJ and loose a chunk of dps". You literally imply that HoJ has a chance to proc on a timer and not an action.............might want to read the tooltip again buddy. HoJ actually procs off of Ataru Stikes. If they are not attack, they are not getting Ataru Strikes. Yes, their dps is going to suffer, they are not doing damage!

 

You're interpreting 'in combat' as 'that little red circle thing that says I'm in combat is there'. I think its fairly clear that the intention was 'actively attacking'. Other classes can auto attack or use other abilities on the opener to reduce their initial threat without hampering their overall DPS. Combat (and Scrapper and possibly Infiltration) don't have that option. They either wait to start attacking or burn everything on the pull to get the most out of their initial, front loaded burst. Of those classes though, 2 are PvP specs that aren't topping DPS boards in Operations.

 

"Every other spec either gains DPS by waiting a few seconds to blow CDs or at worst, doesn't lose DPS by doing so."................................................Didn't we already agree that Focus Guardians are in there? Not to mention Scoundrels, Shadows, Gunslingers, Sages and Vanguards? I mean really!? The "Push this button to do more damage" should NOT be used ASAP? Those buttons (under "normal" circumstances) should be used any time you are able to push them. The few cases where you do not are for specific burn phases or delaying for Inspiration. Since we assume no outside interference for our dps to tank threat comparison, we do not have to worry about holding back.

 

While Focus Guardian CAN burst hard on GCD 2 they are wasting DPS potential by doing so. Leap + Combat Focus -> Sweep is great on trash but is a sub-par boss opener. Throw -> Leap -> Exhaustion -> Sunder -> Sweep is much better for bosses and isn't bursting until GCD 5.

 

I'm confused about where you are drawing your conclusion there. Is that a guild conclusion or is that in relation to this argument? I always assume a realistic raid scenario, otherwise why would I be comparing my threat generation against a DPS... We aren't competing on a dummy and if we were, I'd lose if for no reason other than I'm not being attacked so I lose over half my resource generation.

 

Saber Reflect can not be depended on due to its reliance on a boss doing a specific attack. You have to wait for that attack and use it there for it to be effective. I classify Saber Reflect under the "Special" category with Sage Pulls and Guardian Leaps for threat management. Since that is out of the way and we agree that Guardian INITIAL threat generation is lower then a Shadows and I win vs a Shadow 50% of the time we can assume that I shouldn't have to address Guardians again, no?

 

I am not using my higher potentials. I am using average. I could factor in a lucky string of crits and skew everything in my favor.....Your rotation may be in a good place, but there is still a strong chance I am going to pull threat somewhere in there. That is kinda the point. DPS can outclass tank threat generation if taunts are not used when a dps pulls threat.

 

Saber Reflect generates over 8k threat on everything you are currently engaged with that is within 30m when activated EVEN IF IT DOESN'T REFLECT ANYTHING. If there is an attack that needs to be reflected within the first minute if the fight I won't use it on the pull. If there isn't, its literally free threat and if it actually reflects anything its even better. If Saber Reflect is used on the pull Guardian and Shadow are pretty close on initial threat, if it can't Shadows win.

 

You're using averages and I'm using minimums. If you're average is close to my minimum (which guess what? Is lower than my average) then in a real situation, I'm gonna be higher than that and you're not likely to change too much.

 

Where is the fallacious part? All I need is 110% of the tanks threat to pull off of him (standing in melee range, like I would) or 130%( standing at range) at most. Go back and look at the numbers and do the math between my average TPS and the tanks in different scenarios (I am also assuming the tanks hits 100% of the time, even though we all know that if a tank misses..........they don't have a leg to stand on). Varrying start times can cause a problem with the numbers; however, we assume that the tank gets the first hit followed milliseconds by the dps attacking (Ideally both at the same time, but for practical reasons the tank should have the first hit to pull initial threat followed by the dps begining). Now, as far as varying threat curves between tank classes and dps specs...I agree and that is the point. The initial threat curve of a dps can outclass that of a tank (especially Guardians). As a result of the (and to help the OP out), I suggest doing the Pull -> Taunt --> Drop Threat "rotation" in order to assist in his tanks threat establishment. Keyboardninja is saying that if a tank looses threat at any point, he is bad. I am disagreeing due to the capability of dps to outclass threat generation (assuming a standard and not special circumstances).

 

You are NOT AT MELEE RANGE. Go look back up there. Even the boss hugging Sentinel is rarely at melee range for threat purposes. I'm all for the argument that some DPS can simply out-threat the potential generation of any tank, using inaccurate numbers to support that argument is where I have an issue.

 

You are nerfing the dps, wouldn't it be better to create a situation where dps can start and tanks can get a good baseline threat? Hint, hint................. Pull -> Taunt --> Drop Threat is not a bad thing and a very good tool that is effective in all scenarios.

 

It is not a good thing in all scenarios. What if you pull Thrasher just in time for him to turn around and cleave the rest of the raid? What if you pull Dash'roode and get him out of position which ends up knocking all your melee into the sandstorm? What if you get Titan 6 just in time to eat Huge Grenade or Ops Chief in time to eat Terminate?

 

Of those, 3 are causing extra healing required while 2 have the potential to just 1 shot you. Your argument is very similar to "I should stand in the red cause my higher DPS will help and the healers can handle it". Actively making it harder for the tank is essentially the same. Sure, most of the time you won't have that happen, but the potential for it to go badly is absolutely there.

 

16 man NiM Firebrand and Stormcaller pre-nerf..................that is all i really need to say. Who here can attest to that enrage timer being tight? I know I can, heh....you guys think 8 Man HM Styrak is bad....pft.

 

You are simply making excuses for bad tanking now. It is never a dps's fault for pulling threat. By numbers they can outclass tank threat generation. That is why tanks have the "Gib Threat Naow" button.....learn to use it at the right time and there is never an issue in a raid. Good tanks think ahead and plan. Quite simply, if you have a strong dps with you, save your bloody taunt until he pulls you ding dong!

 

It really depends at which point in the fight and what the penalty for doing so is. Generally, most fights these days have lenient enrage timers so going all out at GCD 0 isn't optimal or needed.

 

And finally, this......................................................

 

If you are a gunslinger and NOT pre-casting Flyby and/or Aim Shot, you are doing it wrong. It is the equivalent of a tank deciding he should never use a taunt. Idk what you do in your raids, I know we here at Severity Pre-Cast about 5-7 Flybys on ALL of our pulls. Our tanks can hold threat not only againts me, but 2-3 MORE Gunslingers that are just as good (Total of 3-4 if you can't count. That also means at least one of us is not Guarded). Furthermore, we have 1 Combat Sent, 1 Hybrid AND some great Vanguards. Our kill times are some of the fastest in game. We have cleared ALL current content the week it released (most of it in one night). Am I measuring an E-Peen here!?.................YES. We are good and our tanks can do their job and not QQ about threat. It is tanks like you that make tanks look bad.

 

Its DPS like you that make DPS look bad. There is more to the player than just their numbers and in a TEAM its about how well you work together. Making one players role unnecessarily harder isn't being part of a team, its being selfish and entitled.

 

Ironically, I've yet to have anyone run with me and give me any pointers on tanking. In fact, I frequently get told just how good of a tank I actually am. I mean.... I didn't write the Guardian tanking guide or anything so I obviously have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

If I was on my healer healing you, I would just not cast a heal on you because you are no using your defensive CD's on CD (special cases aside). All so you you would die and get the point to mitigate as much damage as possible! Now, tell me that isn't just the stupidest thing you have heard and go reread your comment and adjust your newbness. (Not gonna apologize for this one, L2P rings bells here)

 

The irony with this is that tank and healer gearing and play style is largely, to taste while DPS actually have an 'optimal' load out. Defensive CD usage is also drastically different from offensive CD usage. Defensive CDs are used either preemptively to mitigate a known high damage period or re-actively to buy your healers time to heal you or the raid. Using a defensive CD for its average contribution is largely wasteful. Offensive CDs on the other hand rarely need to be properly leveraged beyond pop everything at once (yay multiplicity), make sure you are actually going to benefit from the full CD and save them for the soft enrage if its coming soon. Kephess the Undying is the only fight that has windows where offensive CD leveraging is really important.

 

Now if you want to discuss numbers, please come back with something viable besides conjecture and hearsay. I gave my data assuming dps is able to do their job and not cater to a bad tank. Keyboardninja gave his. What it boils down to for our individual argument is the taunt placement or rather the intent of the taunt (assume dps is going to pull, or assume you are going to do more then dps). We have our supporting arguments........you sir have nothing but "please don't attack the boss because I can't tank".

 

You have a parse, on a dummy with ideal circumstances and a pre-cast Flyby. Of the current bosses, Dash'roode is the only one I can think of where you can pre-cast a Flyby before I can start unloading so either add 3 seconds to your parse (4.4k) or discount Flyby (4k). Either way, your threat numbers are suddenly a LOT less impressive. I'm all for seeing just how hard and early you can burst and comparing that to tank threat generation. I'm against using misleading data to make that comparison as all it does it let someone say "look at my big pretty numbers".

 

Hell, I can pull that 4.4k across that same 11 seconds on my horribly geared Carnage Mara without an adrenal. He's still got 58 enhancements, alacrity on his earpiece and only 1 relic along with 69 offhand and 66 main hand.

 

TL;DR: use realistic data for the comparison or there isn't any point making it.

[namesaretough]

I don't have the patience to write essays like grimsblood does, but re: this,

 

Of the current bosses, Dash'roode is the only one I can think of where you can pre-cast a Flyby before I can start unloading so either add 3 seconds to your parse (4.4k) or discount Flyby (4k).

 

SV: Dashroote, titan, thrasher, op chief, and the initial kell dragon spawn on styrek.

TFB: Withering horror, Operator 9 phase 2, every single phase 1 TFB tentacle (technically kephess too, but you'll want to save your cooldowns so meh).

Of the remaining 3 fights, two you open on an untanked boss, and the last is olok the shadow.

 

 

I'm no numbers wiz, but that seems like a significant number of fights can have precasted openers (where you don't start on an untanked target, like the dread guard and the cartel warlords). If your only response is "the dps shouldn't precast flybys because it makes it harder for me to keep aggro" when the debate is if it's better to taunt off a dps or off yourself, please save it. If you can taunt off yourself when a dps opens like that and keep aggro 100% of the time, you prove your point. If you can't, but waiting till the dps passes you and then taunting back means you hold aggro for the rest of the fight, then maybe you have a little room to improve your opener.

 

I also think it's funny this whole thing started when our tanks got called bad for managing to hold aggro over a much higher burst than you allow your dps to open with.

Edited June 1, 2013 by namesaretough

[Grimsblood]

I also think it's funny this whole thing started when our tanks got called bad for managing to hold aggro over a much higher burst than you allow your dps to open with.

 

I suddenly don't feel the need to to say or correct anyone anymore....

[grallmate]

I don't have the patience to write essays like grimsblood does, but re: this,

 

 

 

SV: Dashroote, titan, thrasher, op chief, and the initial kell dragon spawn on styrek.

TFB: Withering horror, Operator 9 phase 2, every single phase 1 TFB tentacle (technically kephess too, but you'll want to save your cooldowns so meh).

Of the remaining 3 fights, two you open on an untanked boss, and the last is olok the shadow.

 

 

I'm no numbers wiz, but that seems like a significant number of fights can have precasted openers (where you don't start on an untanked target, like the dread guard and the cartel warlords). If your only response is "the dps shouldn't precast flybys because it makes it harder for me to keep aggro" when the debate is if it's better to taunt off a dps or off yourself, please save it. If you can taunt off yourself when a dps opens like that and keep aggro 100% of the time, you prove your point. If you can't, but waiting till the dps passes you and then taunting back means you hold aggro for the rest of the fight, then maybe you have a little room to improve your opener.

 

I also think it's funny this whole thing started when our tanks got called bad for managing to hold aggro over a much higher burst than you allow your dps to open with.

 

Opening with Flyby and pre-casting Flyby are exceptionally different, if it is opened with I have atleast 5 seconds (6 if they aren't Sharpshooter) before it actually hits. If it is pre-cast the first tick is hitting about the same time I leap in and from a threat per second point they are drastically different. A full Flyby is ~16k damage across 9 seconds (with set bonus) from the time the first tick hits to the time the last hits. However, from the time it is first cast to the time the last tick hits is a whopping 15 seconds.

 

To put that in perspective, if you measure from the first tick to the last tick Flyby is worth ~1800 TPS if you measure from the instant it is first cast to the instant it finishes its only worth ~1050 TPS. The difference there is HUGE.

 

Pre-casting involves casting it before I can start tanking, so of those: Dash'roode can be pre-cast while he's still running in and being positioned. Of the others Op IX is possible depending on your strategy (ours has the DPS burning down the Regulators quickly when he spawns). I'll concede the initial Kell Dragon spawn if you're casting it before the adds go down as well as the TFB tentacles. Honestly though, I don't really worry about the tentacles, Flyby is up for every one but you don't have CDs popped every single time and the goal is to burn them evenly, not as quick as possible. Plus every tank is literally swimming in resources for those and I have Saber Reflect up for every spawn.

 

RE. what I 'allow' my DPS to open with, as long as I've leaped in, they can do whatever they want. Mathematically its best to blow everything when Inspiration goes off and we don't normally run with a Combat Sentinel unless it's me. I don't have aggro issues unless I miss with more than 1 ability and even then, taunt quickly fixes that (or it swaps to my co-tank).

 

*IF* I came to a point where I was using the optimal front loaded threat rotation and a DPS was bursting harder than I could possibly burst threat without forgoing mitigation, I'd go back to popping a power adrenal on the pull (yay 1.3-2.0 Guardian theat...). If they still burst harder than that, yes I would ask them to hold back a few seconds to establish threat. That's a big if though and at that point, all tanks would be looking at ways to hold initial threat as well. Some will have DPS unload and taunt off, some will ask DPS to hold back and some will run DPS gear or use DPS relics on the pull.

[namesaretough]

All the stuff about opening vs pre-casting aside (we always precast, by the way. I chose my words carefully and correctly), I'd like to point out a part of your final paragraph. Specifically,

...all tanks would be looking at ways to hold initial threat as well. Some will have DPS unload and taunt off, some will ask DPS to hold back and some will run DPS gear or use DPS relics on the pull.

So you also believe taunting off a dps bursting at the beginning will provide more threat than what a tank can build on his own. I'm glad we concur.

[grallmate]

So you also believe taunting off a dps bursting at the beginning will provide more threat than what a tank can build on his own. I'm glad we concur.

 

In the EXPLICIT situation that DPS are capable of generating more threat than a tank can conceivably generate, yes taunting off a DPS would increase the tanks threat generation.

 

I hope you realize though, that tautologies aren't effective tools for building an argument. Nor is choosing to only read part of the opposing argument and ignore context and literal intent.

[Marb]

Having all these sweet opening threat rotations is good and all, but when most are talking about a threat pull, the time scale they are talking is much smaller. If you compare what a dps can do while a guardian is using saber throw and leaping, his follow up smash isn't that spectacular, and it takes another 3 globals for threat to ramp up over what a dps would be easily doing at that point. Listing an opening rotation with 6 globals is irrelevant. A lot will come down to how dps behave and which tank is tanking. As kitru put it, "play-style disconnect". That's a good combination of words.

 

And if taunts aren't even in the equation (because taunt fluffing makes you bad apparently) any mara or sniper playing optimally is going to be too close to taking a boss off a jugg, even after their highest threat rotation. This is where I would disagree with KBN's blanket statement, because it *is* possible for dps to take threat, even if said guardian is playing "correctly". And to those that think that taunt fluffing isn't ever needed, that is just a joke. Mara and sniper burst is not a joke, and not everyone plays a shadow tank. If there isn't a taunt boost/fluff, I don't think a vanguard or guardian has a big enough safety net, with raw tps its just too close to be reliable (misses do happen).

Edited June 1, 2013 by Marb

[Grimsblood]

In the EXPLICIT situation that DPS are capable of generating more threat than a tank can conceivably generate, yes taunting off a DPS would increase the tanks threat generation.

 

I hope you realize though, that tautologies aren't effective tools for building an argument. Nor is choosing to only read part of the opposing argument and ignore context and literal intent.

 

I believe, Smugglin's point is that..............well:

 

1) We here at Severity are in a situation where this always happens.

2) The original argument dates back to weather a dps is capable of doing so. In effect, you have agreed with everything we have said and completely backpedaled. Just because you personally are in a situation where your dps can not create the situation ours does, does not mean that other players that are good can not be placed in that situation.

 

Let's refresh here, OP was having issues with threat. I gave the most reliable scenario to establish initial threat in a "Worst case" scenario (for the tank). You told me I was a bad dps, then you agree with me?.....

 

 

Just to hit on two more things:

 

1) Tautologies don't build an argument. The illustrate points in different fashions in hopes that the person they are directed at will understand the message being conveyed. (Hint: The argument is already there)

 

2)

Some will have DPS unload and taunt off, some will ask DPS to hold back and some will run DPS gear or use DPS relics on the pull.

 

Yeah about that...............why would you even mention that? That is something someone would say that doesn't know any better. I expect more out of you since you wrote the Guardian Tanking Guide...........................

[grallmate]

I believe, Smugglin's point is that..............well:

 

1) We here at Severity are in a situation where this always happens.

2) The original argument dates back to weather a dps is capable of doing so. In effect, you have agreed with everything we have said and completely backpedaled. Just because you personally are in a situation where your dps can not create the situation ours does, does not mean that other players that are good can not be placed in that situation.

 

Let's refresh here, OP was having issues with threat. I gave the most reliable scenario to establish initial threat in a "Worst case" scenario (for the tank). You told me I was a bad dps, then you agree with me?.....

 

If you are actively making the tanks job unnecessarily harder then I maintain you are a bad DPS. Again, taking one point out of context of the rest of the post does not build a solid argument. Case in point:

 

Am I measuring an E-Peen here!?.................YES.

 

I'm not here for a pissing contest. If you want to bring up solid arguments that are realistic in a raid I'm all for it. Inflating your numbers to make yourself look good is just that. Inflated.

 

Just to hit on two more things:

 

1) Tautologies don't build an argument. The illustrate points in different fashions in hopes that the person they are directed at will understand the message being conveyed. (Hint: The argument is already there)

 

Tautology in a logical sense is essentially an argument that attempts to prove itself using itself.

 

Yeah about that...............why would you even mention that? That is something someone would say that doesn't know any better. I expect more out of you since you wrote the Guardian Tanking Guide...........................

 

I was listing methods for increasing a tanks threat. Not saying I would use them. Tanking isn't set in stone w.r.t. gearing and people do silly things while still being able to tank somewhat effectively. Case in point the number of tanks who don't come to the forums and actually have accuracy on their gear.

 

EDIT: Also, popping a Power relic and then swapping it for a tank relic before you start combat gives you a boost to initial threat with essentially no downside. I know tanks that used to do this. For any Guardians who didn't play pre 2.0 and weren't able to get an EWH, the options beyond the Fortunate Redoubt are... underwhelming to say the least. Guardians have enough CDs that a clicky relic isn't overly useful and the Shield Amp relic has always been terrible for Guardians.

Edited June 1, 2013 by grallmate

[namesaretough]

I hope you realize though, that tautologies aren't effective tools for building an argument. Nor is choosing to only read part of the opposing argument and ignore context and literal intent.

 

You're absolutely right. I made some leaps I didn't include in my post. Here's the expanded version I should have posted.

 

To begin, you talk about pre-casting vs opening. We precast our flybys, so the first tick hits at the pull. With your numbers, we're talking about the 1800TPS scenario.

 

RE. what I 'allow' my DPS to open with, as long as I've leaped in, they can do whatever they want.

It sounds like your dps begins to attack when you charge. Given your particular attention to the point of precasting vs opening, this leads me to believe your gunslingers open with (but don't precast) flyby. You aren't allowing your dps to begin with a pre-casted flyby. This is the limitation you've put on them. My tanks allow me to open with adrenal, relic and inspiration (I have a combat sentinel in my group), along with a pre-casted flyby and aimed shot (plus trickshot, if I'm sharpshooter). This happens every boss fight I do. This is my "realistic raid situation". Your strategy works for your raid group, our strategy works for ours, but this means our tanks see drastically different threat from the rest of the group than what you see.

 

Here's where my logical leap happens. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but you repeatedly say it's bad to open with big burst ("Its DPS like you that make DPS look bad", "Making one players role unnecessarily harder isn't being part of a team, its being selfish and entitled.",etc) , which makes me believe you have trouble holding aggro against a big burst on the pull (or else why would you be criticizing the practice so vehemently). Therefore, if there were some way that you COULD hold aggro over this burst, at no danger of wiping your raid, that would be a better opening than your current opening. You listed some examples of ways that could be accomplished (the full paragraph follows for context)

*IF* I came to a point where I was using the optimal front loaded threat rotation and a DPS was bursting harder than I could possibly burst threat without forgoing mitigation, I'd go back to popping a power adrenal on the pull (yay 1.3-2.0 Guardian theat...). If they still burst harder than that, yes I would ask them to hold back a few seconds to establish threat. That's a big if though and at that point, all tanks would be looking at ways to hold initial threat as well. Some will have DPS unload and taunt off, some will ask DPS to hold back and some will run DPS gear or use DPS relics on the pull.

The 4 methods you offered to improve aggro management were:

1)Taunt as soon as a dps pulls (presumably immediately followed by the dps dropping aggro)

2)Ask dps to hold off

3) Use DPS gear

4) Use DPS relics on the pull

 

In my realistic raid situation, where an unguarded gunslinger is very likely to pull aggro (again, I'm assuming they will because you don't want the gunslinger to precast flyby), the conclusion I therefore arrived at is "you also believe taunting off a dps bursting at the beginning will provide more threat than what a tank can build on his own".

 

I understand if you want to make your job easier by not really having to try to hold aggro on the opener. That's not this debate, though. This conversation is about the maximum amount of threat a tank can hold on the pull, and if it's better to taunt off yourself or off the first dps to burst over you. (By the way, please take a step back and realize how silly it is that this much anger stems from what's basically 1s difference in when people hit taunt).

 

Additionally, I want to address these two things in particular.

Generally, most fights these days have lenient enrage timers so going all out at GCD 0 isn't optimal or needed.

 

Its DPS like you that make DPS look bad. There is more to the player than just their numbers and in a TEAM its about how well you work together. Making one players role unnecessarily harder isn't being part of a team, its being selfish and entitled.

 

Our goal as a raid group is to maximize raid dps while executing mechanics. Our tanks are able to overcome massive initial burst and maintain aggro so we can do this. We aren't interested in outputting sufficient dps to clear an encounter, but the most we possibly can to practice for later, more difficult encounters. Obviously, if we repeatedly wiped due to this we wouldn't do it. So please, stop telling us how awful our group is for wanting to push the limits of our classes.

[Marb]

@namesaretough

 

I think a lot of all this thread is a conflict of play styles, and what each party believes to be proper ops behavior for dps and tanks.

 

I think the advice shot at the op should have been from the mindset of letting dps be dps, and instructing the op's tanks how to taunt boost effectively. Instead, a lot of people treat taunt boost as a dirty word and immediately call into question the competence of the tank, with their own assumptions on how dps perform and behave in mind, which isn't fair.

 

Bioware have given tanks the tools they need to tank, they should all be exploited to maximum effect to let dps do the same for their respective role in operations. Generating "just enough" agro is equally unexciting to tanks as doing "just enough" damage is for dps.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Marb

[grallmate]

I think a lot of all this thread is a conflict of play styles, and what each party believes to be proper ops behavior for dps and tanks.

 

I think this is very true and am happy to leave it there if other posters in this thread are willing to do the same.

 

We have different methods for achieving the same goal, be it clearing a raid, maximizing DPS (you squeeze in a bit at the front while I focus on the remainder of the fight) or effectively tanking and it seems that neither party will convince the other.

[DarknessInLight]

So long story short I wanted to know since there are obviously guilds out there with a million times better DPS and tanks than ours...what do you guys do to stop agro pulling?

 

Thanks for the info and every possible solution possible would be great! Thank you!

 

From a Tanking Perspective:

 

1. Let the Tank draw aggro first. DPS are not supposed to jump into the fight first.

 

2. The Tank(s) need to be sure they have the proper rotation set up to create/maintain aggro. If the tank is not using their Threat Generators and Taunts, it's going to be harder for them to maintain aggro.

 

3. Certain Tanks have access to abilities that are useless for them, and should not be used. Case in Point: Focused Defense for Guardians. Never.....and I mean NEVER, should the Guardian Tank be using this ability. Period. That ability is designed to reduce threat in Guardian DPS and in use of the Tank, reduces their threat levels.

 

4. DPS need to learn Target Priority. DPS should be attacking the mob in the following order:

 

1. Weak

2. Strong/Champion

3. Elite

 

Tanks should be pulling and holding ONLY the aggro of the Strongest members of the mobs the group is attacking and pull the weaker ones as the fight permits. The Tank's Target Priority is:

 

1. Elite

2. Strong/Champion

3. Weak

 

The group needs to learn how to properly use CC(if available) to reduce the size of the mob, which makes the tank's job of pulling/holding aggro a little easier. Breaking CC prematurely will require the tank to pick up the aggro of the remaining NPC's that are entering the fight.

 

5. Tanks need to STOP putting Guard on the first DPS they run across. Healers put out more aggro than most DPS, so if anyone should be getting Guard, its more likely your healer.

 

Hope this helps.

[AAAAzrael]

Actually this target priority thing is much more complicated and depends on many things. Each encounter is different. It's better to have more mitigated damage to the tank that can be healed through then damage spread out through tank and the DPS if they pull mobs on them they cannot quickly stun or kill. Anyway it's not much relevant to pulling aggro on S&V bosses and such as in the original post.

[Vaidinah]

From a Tanking Perspective:

 

1. Let the Tank draw aggro first. DPS are not supposed to jump into the fight first.

 

2. The Tank(s) need to be sure they have the proper rotation set up to create/maintain aggro. If the tank is not using their Threat Generators and Taunts, it's going to be harder for them to maintain aggro.

 

3. Certain Tanks have access to abilities that are useless for them, and should not be used. Case in Point: Focused Defense for Guardians. Never.....and I mean NEVER, should the Guardian Tank be using this ability. Period. That ability is designed to reduce threat in Guardian DPS and in use of the Tank, reduces their threat levels.

 

4. DPS need to learn Target Priority. DPS should be attacking the mob in the following order:

 

1. Weak

2. Strong/Champion

3. Elite

 

Tanks should be pulling and holding ONLY the aggro of the Strongest members of the mobs the group is attacking and pull the weaker ones as the fight permits. The Tank's Target Priority is:

 

1. Elite

2. Strong/Champion

3. Weak

 

The group needs to learn how to properly use CC(if available) to reduce the size of the mob, which makes the tank's job of pulling/holding aggro a little easier. Breaking CC prematurely will require the tank to pick up the aggro of the remaining NPC's that are entering the fight.

 

5. Tanks need to STOP putting Guard on the first DPS they run across. Healers put out more aggro than most DPS, so if anyone should be getting Guard, its more likely your healer.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Much of this is completely wrong and people like you need to stop spreading misinformation on how to tank. This is especially true since this thread was started on the idea on aggro control in a raid environment.

 

1) This is correct. Tanks start the fights, not DPS, especially since the person initiating will receive initial aggro from all targets.

 

2) This is so blatantly obvious that I don't see why you bothered to mention it. Anyone who does not know this has never read what their skills do.

 

3) This is completely wrong. If you don't know how to properly use Focused/Enraged Defense, then you should learn how. It is a sometimes useful defensive cooldown when paired with a single target taunt and/or AoE one, but most importantly, it's an amazing cooldown with Endure Pain on several fights. There are 3 conditions needed for the *ideal* use of this skill.

 

a) You do not need to hold aggro on the boss (either because the boss is untauntable or your co-tank is holding him)

b) Plenty or rage/focus (ideally around 8 or so)

c) You are taking consistent DoT-style damage

 

Some ideal examples of when to use Focused/Enraged Defense are during the Lightning Field in HM TFB Dread Guard fight, the last phase of SM/HM TFB Kephess when you are kiting orange circles and taking unavoidable damage, HM/NiM EC in the Zorn and Toth fight in the red circle phase, Scum and Villainy Styrak when he uses his AoE lightning attack, and so on.

 

4) This is mostly correct, but DPS should focus down healers over anything else regardless of their level. For example, the Medtech Droids in Scum and Villainy.

 

5) This is completely wrong. Healers generate aggro across all enemies at a much lower rate than tanks do and will never take aggro from a tank that is hitting that target. Healers will only take aggro during a fight on targets that are not being attacked by anyone else and Guard does nothing to stop this from occurring. There are very few exceptions to this, with the common one being the 2nd phase of the TFB Terror from Beyond fight. Even then, it's not needed if tanks get to their platform quickly and hit the boss on the way there.

 

Guard the DPS on your team which has the highest initial damage (not necessarily who has the highest DPS) so you can keep control on bosses.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Vaidinah

[Khevar]

...

 

5. Tanks need to STOP putting Guard on the first DPS they run across. Healers put out more aggro than most DPS, so if anyone should be getting Guard, its more likely your healer.

 

...

I find it interesting that this idea won't die, and that some players keep insisting that this is true and try to advise others to do this.

 

Healer aggro is 50% of healing done. On top of that, threat is reduced by 10% in the healing tree. THEN, the threat is divided among the number of mobs present. And this is "effective healing" not including overheals, which don't add to threat at all.

 

Let's take the first big pull in HM FE. 2 sith mauraders, 2 big droids, 3 ranged in the back. Let's just pretend for the sake of the argument that you're healing 2000 hps. 2000 * 40% / 7 = 114 threat per second. A dps can beat that with occasional free attacks while having tea and scones with his teddy bear.

 

If a healer is being attacked, it's because that mob was being ignored. If the healer has guard, the threat goes from 114 tps to 85 tps. Jack - diddly / squat.

 

A rare time when guarding the healer is useful is on TFB Phase II. The boss' damage reduction is so great that the healing threat can outweigh the damage done. So most groups will guard the healers during that phase.

 

But 99.9% of the time, guarding the healer is about as effective as guarding nobody.

[grallmate]

If a healer is being attacked, it's because that mob was being ignored. If the healer has guard, the threat goes from 114 tps to 85 tps. Jack - diddly / squat.

 

The really important part here (since the people that champion guarding healers tend to also fail at understanding implications) is that if the mob is being ignored by the tank and DPS, 85 TPS is the only threat on it and it will still attack the healer.

 

If everyone is doing their job properly, nothing will be attacking the healer and guard will have no effect.

If everyone isn't doing their job properly, things will STILL attack the healer and guard will have negligible effect.

[Panzerfire]

The really important part here (since the people that champion guarding healers tend to also fail at understanding implications) is that if the mob is being ignored by the tank and DPS, 85 TPS is the only threat on it and it will still attack the healer.

 

If everyone is doing their job properly, nothing will be attacking the healer and guard will have no effect.

If everyone isn't doing their job properly, things will STILL attack the healer and guard will have negligible effect.

 

The equally important part is that healers should not constantly heal during the pulling phase or adds far away and those that spawn from elevators etc.. will go to the healer and at least get their alpha strike in, which can rarely be lethal or worse, have the healer start healing himself and forget about the tank who just pulled them right back to him, resulting in a dead tank. Kolto shell is fine, spamming heals on a tank at full health while pulling is not fine, kolto missle/ revivification is situational but usually ok as well.

Best example for this type of mistakes is the pack with 5 dogs before the dog boss in mandalorian, 4 dogs jumping to healer = healer usually dead or healing himself and not tank who just aoe taunted.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Panzerfire

[ArchangelLBC]

I'm still waiting for Grimmsblood to acknowledge the fact that on most bosses his sentinel should not be in melee range for the purposes of threat since most bosses have hit boxes which are larger than a 4m radius from the dead center of the boss, and that because of this he has to exceed a given tank's threat by 30% in order to pull.

 

Based on that I'd like to see his numbers which make him think pulling threat is an inevitability and not merely a possibility.

 

If I recall from KBN's post he'd have to be generating something like an average of 9500 TPS in order for that to happen on pretty much everything but the tentacles on TFB phase 1 and Styrak. Olok too I suppse?