ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Ratajack]

How does that level 11 guy choosing his AC at the first time effect anyone's gameplay? Please tell us all how it impacts every other player around him, to the point they take notice.

 

I'm sure I'll be waiting a long time.

 

The level 11 character choosing his class affects no one, but the level 55 character CHANGING his CLASS affects others.

[TridusSWTOR]

I see this kind of attitude to be incompatible with gaming.. Fun does not mean you can make up your own rules or demand that rules be changed.. . They are demanding that the rules be changed to accommodate them..

 

It also does effect all of us.. Because you are changing the game that we all play.. The argument that people don't have to use it is just a fallacy.. You know people will use it.. Because it is allowed.. That doesn't make it right or mean it should happen..

 

This kind of mentality is really stupid.. I can certainly give you a ton of examples to show this.. Like the chess one..

 

No other MMO allows class changing.. Case closed..

 

First bold part, he doesn't want us to make up our own rules. Instead he wants to enforce his rules on other players. Hyprocrite much?

 

Second bold, Once again, wants his rules enforced and his idea "fun" enforced on other players. Like a dictator, only he doesn't pay other people's subs.

 

Third bold, How does a level 11 choosing his AC for the first time and then switch to the other AC at level 12 effect you? Please elaborate.

 

Fourth bold, So now he flat out says what we think is wrong, and he is always right. Sounds like greed, arrogance, and enforcing personal beliefs on others. He doesn't pay anyone's sub either, yet he wants us to play "his way".

 

Fifth bold, insults. Because that's all they can offer at this point.

 

Sixth bold, has to compare other MMO's to fight his battles. Other MMO's don't have lightsabers, therefore he wants those removed as well!

[MajikMyst]

How does that level 11 guy choosing his AC at the first time effect anyone's gameplay? Please tell us all how it impacts every other player around him, to the point they take notice.

 

I'm sure I'll be waiting a long time.

 

I explained it a few posts up.. So there is no need to be waiting..

 

The question is, will you understand the answer or just ignore it like you always have been..

Edited July 27, 2013 by CommunityDroidEN

[TridusSWTOR]

I and many others do not like those terms.

 

How about:

 

One time AC change

AC change reverts character to level 10, resetting all non story quests

All companions remain, no loss of companion affection

Character retains all unique and no longer obtainable items

Passive XP boost granted to those characters who change AC to offset loss of XP from already completed story quests.

 

I can say that is all that is required, as well. That doesn't make it so.

 

New terms:

 

2 times AC change

Allow to change 11-55

High CC/Credit cost.

 

The suggestions you offered are just to troll the player and make the game even more unfun for unnecessary reasons. My suggestions on the other hand fit perfectly with how things are currently added to the game as it is now.

 

This isn't EQ anymore, so people aren't going to deal with what you suggest. I think you should rework on how you want your solutions put in, to make it less grindy. That's my only advice to you.

 

Btw, I leveled all my AC's to 55. So don't think I'm doing this for me.

[TridusSWTOR]

No...

 

Save the credits and roll another character of the opposite AC..

 

Problem solved..

 

Not to mention you will make some more money.. Have another character for crafting or just a gathering toon..

 

I have both a sage and a shadow.. It isn't that hard.. There is no reason to allow AC swapping..

 

I have all AC's at 55. You are therefore wrong, I win.

 

Allow my suggestions, problem solved.

 

Come back when you have more suggestions, to which I will show you that you are wrong.

 

You have been debunked.

[MajikMyst]

First bold part, he doesn't want us to make up our own rules. Instead he wants to enforce his rules on other players. Hyprocrite much?

 

Second bold, Once again, wants his rules enforced and his idea "fun" enforced on other players. Like a dictator, only he doesn't pay other people's subs.

 

Third bold, How does a level 11 choosing his AC for the first time and then switch to the other AC at level 12 effect you? Please elaborate.

 

Fourth bold, So now he flat out says what we think is wrong, and he is always right. Sounds like greed, arrogance, and enforcing personal beliefs on others. He doesn't pay anyone's sub either, yet he wants us to play "his way".

 

Fifth bold, insults. Because that's all they can offer at this point.

 

Sixth bold, has to compare other MMO's to fight his battles. Other MMO's don't have lightsabers, therefore he wants those removed as well!

 

lol

 

I rest my case..

 

He does want to make up his own rules.. He wants AC swapping.. That is not currently allowed in the game.. Why are you so oblivious to the obvious??

 

As for the rest of your post??

 

I know you are but what am I..

 

I am guessing that is a response you will understand..

[TridusSWTOR]

The level 11 character choosing his class affects no one, but the level 55 character CHANGING his CLASS affects others.

 

So now you are cherry-picking.

 

When you state something affects others, it has to be across the board. Also, someone playing their character the way they want, is fine in my book. Last time I checked, none of us paid their sub. It's players like you that choose to affect other players with personal beliefs and what you determine is "fun".

 

It takes a player to reach 40-45 to get a full grasp on how there AC is going to play out in the future. That's way too long and they should be allowed a chance to change. If you deny this, you are trolling.

[TridusSWTOR]

I explained it a few posts up.. So there is no need to be waiting..

 

The question is, will you understand the answer or just ignore it like you always have been..

 

You remind me of a 6 year old.. Your arguments essentially boil down to 'I know you are but what am I??' It doesn't matter what anyone tells you.. You just ignore it and ask the same questions again and again and again.. Could you at least try the 'I am rubber and you are glue, whatever you say bounces of me and sticks to you..' for something different once and a while?? Just saying..

 

Oh look, another post just providing insults. How typical.

 

I'm glad you can't answer a simple question. Since you just proved you are wrong in everything you say. Nice job on that.

 

Come back when you want to talk like an adult, the grown-ups are talking now.

[Ratajack]

First bold part, he doesn't want us to make up our own rules. Instead he wants to enforce his rules on other players. Hyprocrite much?

 

He's not trying to "enforce his rules" on others. He is arguing for BW NOT to change the rules BW set, not him.

 

Second bold, Once again, wants his rules enforced and his idea "fun" enforced on other players. Like a dictator, only he doesn't pay other people's subs.

 

He is pointing out that those who want class changes are asking for the rules in place to be changed to suit their desires without regard to how those changes will affect others.

 

 

Third bold, How does a level 11 choosing his AC for the first time and then switch to the other AC at level 12 effect you? Please elaborate.

 

Again, choosing your class at level 11 does not affect others, but CHANGING that class at level 55 DOES affect others, and you have been arguing for allowing class changes up to level 55.

 

Fourth bold, So now he flat out says what we think is wrong, and he is always right. Sounds like greed, arrogance, and enforcing personal beliefs on others. He doesn't pay anyone's sub either, yet he wants us to play "his way".

 

Asking for the rules already set in place by the devs not to be changed is not the same as wanting everyone play "his" way.

[TridusSWTOR]

lol

 

I rest my case..

 

He does want to make up his own rules.. He wants AC swapping.. That is not currently allowed in the game.. Why are you so oblivious to the obvious??

 

As for the rest of your post??

 

I know you are but what am I..

 

I am guessing that is a response you will understand..

 

If you can't provide a response to the points I made, I accept that you concede on all points in this discussion. You have one reply left to redeem yourself.

 

I love how he doesn't deny that he wants to enforce his idea's and rules on other players as well. Good job on that.

 

I provide choice, you provide....well nothing.

[TridusSWTOR]

He's not trying to "enforce his rules" on others. He is arguing for BW NOT to change the rules BW set, not him.

 

So you are saying he wants to make sure players have no choice in how they want to play? I guess we should remove sprint at level 1, since that is something bioware had as a rule when the game started.

 

He is pointing out that those who want class changes are asking for the rules in place to be changed to suit their desires without regard to how those changes will affect others.

 

Once again, read up about sprint. Also, once again, a player changing AC affects nobody but the player. So I guess we should remove field respec, because if someone respecs during a FP, well it's ruining the game! Horrible logic, is horrible.

 

Again, choosing your class at level 11 does not affect others, but CHANGING that class at level 55 DOES affect others, and you have been arguing for allowing class changes up to level 55.

Again, you choose to make blanket statements and then backpedal to regain your postion. It's obvious and pathetic. Next time don't make blanket statements and they won't come back at you. Like I said before, AC change only affects the player that does it. You can't prove me wrong.

 

Asking for the rules already set in place by the devs not to be changed is not the same as wanting everyone play "his" way.

 

He wants sprint at level 1 removed guys. Let's get rid of it.

 

I provide choice, you two don't. That's the meat of it.

 

You provide your ideals, beliefs, greed, arrogance of how the game should be played according to you guys and enforce it on other players. Back to no sprint at level 1 according to your laws.

Edited July 26, 2013 by TridusSWTOR

[Drew_Braxton]

Just hope the next level cap doesn't come anytime soon.

 

Software monkeys messing around with class trees with why I left WOW so hope Bioware does it better than Blizzard.

[Ratajack]

New terms:

 

2 times AC change

Allow to change 11-55

High CC/Credit cost.

 

The suggestions you offered are just to troll the player and make the game even more unfun for unnecessary reasons. My suggestions on the other hand fit perfectly with how things are currently added to the game as it is now.

 

This isn't EQ anymore, so people aren't going to deal with what you suggest. I think you should rework on how you want your solutions put in, to make it less grindy. That's my only advice to you.

 

Btw, I leveled all my AC's to 55. So don't think I'm doing this for me.

 

Apparently we will not be able to come to an agreed upon compromise, so I guess the best thing to do is to leave things the way they were designed by BW, not any players, NO class changes allowed. You decision is PERMANENT as you were advised multiple times when you made that decision.

 

Allowing class changes 2 times is too many, IMO. Those who are going change classes are going to do so because they do not like their chosen class, so why allow them to change back if they don't like the class in the first place? Allowing class changes with little or no drawback (a high CC or credit cost is little drawback, if any) would be a mistake, IMO.

 

If they are going to allow class changes, it should not be a trivial decision. Class changes should come with enough restrictions or "penalties for being able to skip the leveling process to play another class" that it requires some serious thought and consideration.

 

This is one of the reasons I suggested the restrictions that I did. The restrictions I suggested will allow those who have unique and no longer obtainable items to keep them on their "main" while helping to alleviate the most major concerns of those against class changes.

[Ratajack]

So now you are cherry-picking.

 

Actually, I'm NOT cherry picking. I'm showing the whole basket of cherries. You were the one cherry picking when you asked only about a level 11 character CHOOSING his class, not CHANGING his class.

 

 

When you state something affects others, it has to be across the board.

 

When you state something is NOT going to affect others, that has to be across the board, as well.

 

Also, someone playing their character the way they want, is fine in my book. Last time I checked, none of us paid their sub. It's players like you that choose to affect other players with personal beliefs and what you determine is "fun".

 

The fact that player A pays his subscription and does not find activity x to be "fun" does not give him the right to change the rules to suit himself so he can get the rewards he would gain from activity X without actually doing activity X, nor does it give player the right to tell player B that player B still has to do activity Y to get the rewards from activity Y. This is what you have been doing. You are arguing for changing the rules to allow class changes since many don't find going leveling "fun" and at the same time you are arguing against allowing players to have BIS gear without doing ops even if that player does not find OPS "fun".

 

It takes a player to reach 40-45 to get a full grasp on how there AC is going to play out in the future. That's way too long and they should be allowed a chance to change. If you deny this, you are trolling.

 

That's a very good reason to reset a character to level 10 if they change their class. It will give that player those 3-35 levels to become accustomed the new skills they would be getting at the rate intended by the devs.

[Ratajack]

 

It's obvious and pathetic. Next time don't make blanket statements and they won't come back at you. Like I said before, AC change only affects the player that does it. You can't prove me wrong.

 

You provide your ideals, beliefs, greed, arrogance of how the game should be played according to you guys and enforce it on other players. Back to no sprint at level 1 according to your laws.

 

Of the two of us (you and I), which one is arguing for the currently existing rules set in place by BW to be changed? I'll give you a hint-it's not me.

 

Regarding class changing affecting others, it has already been explained multiple times how allowing class changes WILL affect others and not just the player changing class, but I'm guessing that you either missed them or ignored them because they do not mesh with your desires.

[LordArtemis]

He's not trying to "enforce his rules" on others. He is arguing for BW NOT to change the rules BW set, not him.

 

 

 

He is pointing out that those who want class changes are asking for the rules in place to be changed to suit their desires without regard to how those changes will affect others.

 

 

 

 

Again, choosing your class at level 11 does not affect others, but CHANGING that class at level 55 DOES affect others, and you have been arguing for allowing class changes up to level 55.

 

 

 

Asking for the rules already set in place by the devs not to be changed is not the same as wanting everyone play "his" way.

 

Ratajack, I hope your not throwing in with MajikMyst. I would think the reasons that is not a good idea are obvious.

Edited July 26, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Ratajack]

Ratajack, I hope your not throwing in with MajikMyst. I would think the reasons that is not a good idea are obvious.

 

While we both are on the same side of this issue, I'm not "throwing in" with him, but at the same time, I feel obligated to bring light to what I find to be an obviously "less than completely honest" representation of his post.

[ekwalizer]

I should probably have listed a longer list of game aspects that can be considered to give an advantage, my fault. Companion affection gives a very minor boost to crew mission/crafting critical results and could give a resultant advantage to anyone playing the GTN economy.

 

Where most draw the line for what affects them in game play is another players access to end game BiS gear and the ability to generate credits. With the introduction of the cartel market and the ability to resell packs and gear on the GTN (a de facto ingame gold seller, that is real cash for ingame credits) this second factor has become less of an issue. The major concern for most would be a players ability to completely bypass the gear grind aspect of the endgame.

 

Even then, I am not opposed on a fundamental level, to allowing for the purchase within the cartel market of a level 55 character equipped in level 72 purples, with all companions at max affection. They have essentially paid to bypass the content but that would be their choice and would still not detract from your achievements made in game in any way.

 

I spend time running dailies and fps to earn credits, it does not offend me that other players chose to pay cash for packs and vendor them on the gtn so they can spend more time doing the content they like.

 

I think what cause most offense on this issue is the attachment of a real world price against the time I have put in.

 

Run Ilum, Black Hole and Section X takes anywhere between one and a half to two hours and nets me on average 400,000 credits.

Purchase a cartel pack for 360 ccs and vendor it on GTN for 400,000 credits (usually about this price for the most recent pack) costs about £2 and takes virtually no time.

Most people would be offended to think their time is only worth about £1 an hour

From where do you derive this irrefutable fact?

Are you seriously advocating for pay to win?

[ekwalizer]

Why stop short of allowing creation of max level characters with all companions at max affection with all companion unlocks and BIS gear if a player has already achieved all those things on one character. That player may not find those things to be "fun", and instead simply "time sinks". It really has little to no impact on how player A plays the game if player B creates that max level character.

 

This is ultimately where it leads.

 

At what point does "I'm a Merc but want to be a PT" become " I'm a Merc but want to be an Inquisitor"?

[Vhaegrant]

I believe you would be correct as the devs have already stated that they intentionally designed the classes(AC's) such that no one character could fill all three roles. Allowing class (AC) changes would negate this, even if a character did not have access to tanking and healing abilities at the same time, it still undermines the design intent of not allowing a single character access to tanking AND healing abilities at any time.

 

I've seen the old Daniel Erickson quote made not long after the launch where he says they have no plans for switching advanced class which are seen as fundamentally different classes. No mention of specific segregation of roles though, are you referring to a different source?

I've also seen the more recent comment by the current lead designer that says AC switch has been considered and may happen in the future. This points out that games change as they mature and no ruleset is out of reach for the discussion of change.

Underminging the intent? I still don't think it does. An AC change still maintains a seperation of abilities that prevents a character mixing tank/healing abilities.

 

 

The forums have always been comprised of a vocal minority, and there are likely just as many players who do not frequent the forums who would oppose class changes as there are players who would favor class changes who do not frequent the forums.

 

With regards to drawing back players to the game, they might draw some players back, but they will definitely lose some players if they allow class changes. Would they draw back as many as they would lose? Would there be as many players who resub as would unsub and leave this game? No one knows, but it is possible that BW is content to keep the player base it already has rather than risk losing players in the hopes that they draw some players back in.

 

Remember, any players they draw back in have already left this game once and would be more likely to leave this game again than those who have stayed with it from the time they started playing.

 

As I said before, right now they have those posters who are against class changes paying and playing, as well as those who are in favor of class changes. If they allow class changes, those who feel strongly enough about class changes WILL leave. Does it make more financial sense to keep everyone playing and playing or to keep only some of those paying and playing now?

 

Seriously I am still struggling to understand why anyone would place such an absolute against the arguement as 'If it changes I quit'. I'm sorry but this just reminds me of young kids on the football pitch who walk off with their ball just because they start to loose.

 

Allowing an AC change has zero effect on you within the game mechanics. It is no more invasive than the role changing already available within the skill trees. No one sees any real problems with that level of role swapping. No one is threatening to quit because a Mercenary can change from Healer role to DPS role or a Powertech changes from DPS role to Tank role. Why should they be so insulted that they feel the need to quit over allowing another player to chose between Healer OR Tank role?

 

Because it is a 'meaningful' choice? It's only meaningful as far as it pertains to you. If you wan't your AC choice to be meaningful and absolute then by all means feel free not to use an AC change feature should it ever be implemented.I just don't feel that should be enforced on other players.

[Vhaegrant]

This is ultimately where it leads.

 

At what point does "I'm a Merc but want to be a PT" become " I'm a Merc but want to be an Inquisitor"?

 

It doesn't ultimately lead anywhere, I think you may be relying on the Slippery Slope Fallacy

 

I would not advocate allowing a Story Class change (and believe it would fall into the virtually impossible due to the way they track story advancement such as companion interaction, the same issues they have mentioned make gender change and faction change so difficult) as the game is built around the story being the main focus. If the game was less linear with not so much focus on the story then it may be a consideration as long as access to certain combinations of abilities was restricted.

 

However, as the game stands it is not unreasonable to see the AC as a subset of the starting class. It doesn't need to be any more complex than that

[ekwalizer]

I think many of the arguments against allowing an AC change, or even the chance to discuss such a change, fall back on this wording. While I was never in Beta I did follow the progress and seem to recall the wording was less definitive, I can only assume it had to be beefed up due to players wanting the AC change option at the time.

 

I would agree with you however on the point that it is 'one of the things in this game where you pick one or the other and you are stuck with it' I would say beyond the initial choice of class it is the ONLY aspect of the game that is a meaningful and permanent.

 

With the customisation booth aside from gender all aspects of the characters appearance set on creation can be altered.

 

During the story your conversation choices are more for flavour, there are no branching paths, with virtually no significant outcomes that I can think of.

 

 

Sith Warrior has the Light side Jaesa or Dark side Jaesa.

Jedi Consular has follow up as to whether you make a Dark or Light side choice on Balmorra.

 

Most choices are reflected in the e-mail you get.

The story has to be linear to make sure you hit all the set piece elements.

 

Light/Dark side choices are largely irrelevant. Can go back and rerun FPs to alter or maintain a neutral position. Items with a requirement are not BiS and are usually a straight mirror so it only affects those that are attempting to stay grey. Dark side appearance can be turned off, their is no light side appearance change.

 

 

And yet you can rerun Heroics, FPs and OPs and choose to take different choices in the conversation options every time you run it. Light side one day Dark side the next. Nothing in this game is truly permanent aside from the initial story you chose to play (which I agree with) and the AC you choose (which I disagree with).

I feel the roleplaying aspect would actually be enhanced by allowing for an AC change as I see the AC as a sub-set of the core class and a mechanical means of separating abilities that may cause balance issues.

My main is a Light side Bounty Hunter, more a gun for hire with a conscience, as likely to hire himself out as a bodyguard and protector as he is to go after criminals that have evaded the local authorities. In this role it is just as valid to see him want to go the healer role (Mercenary) as it is tank (Powertech), which is a choice based on the particular ability set and equipment (both of which see similar variation when choosing a different skill tree within an AC).

 

 

This is one of the main reasons I seem to be such a passionate advocate for allowing an AC change in the future. You really don't get a feel for how an AC is going to play until quite late in the game. The full rotation only becomes available in the mid to late 40s. By this time you have made a considerable investment into your character. To abandon it and relevel the alternative class knowing the story will be the same (minor changes if you chose a different gender/ convo choices) and not knowing if the issues are one of the class itself or just the AC.

 

 

I don't think it is a core mechanic with regards to Lore or Star Wars. Obviously it is a current core mechanic of the game and one I would like to see altered sometime in the future.

I think this issue would have been lessened or even eliminated if the AC choice was made at first level before you even start playing. You would not experience any part of the game as just a Bounty Hunter and there would be no connection to the thought that the Mercenary/ Powertech is just a subset of the Bounty Hunter class.

Only on replay would you realise that the two share so much like initial appearance, story, companions, legacy buff, restricted gear, and a core of abilities.

 

You are confusing "story" with class". When you create a character, you pick a story you want to play. When you get to the fleet you pick the class within that story you want to play. That is your class. You are told 4 times prior to selecting it that it is PERMANENT. You really don't know whether or not you will like something until you play it as max level for a while. I hated my Sentinel from 11-49. But once I figured out my role in FPs and OPs (I don't do Heroics or FPs when I level up). I absolutely loved the toon.

 

NO ONE is trying to tell anyone "how to play", we're just saying play within the rules.

[ekwalizer]

It doesn't ultimately lead anywhere, I think you may be relying on the Slippery Slope Fallacy

Slippery Slope is NOT a fallacy. Once precident is established it becomes easier to go down hill. Just because YOU will not advocate Smuggler to Knight doesn't mean 1000 other people would once the door has been opened.

[LordArtemis]

While we both are on the same side of this issue, I'm not "throwing in" with him, but at the same time, I feel obligated to bring light to what I find to be an obviously "less than completely honest" representation of his post.

 

Fair enough. Just be careful.

[ekwalizer]

However, as the game stands it is not unreasonable to see the AC as a subset of the starting class. It doesn't need to be any more complex than that

 

You do not have a starting class, you have a STORY and an Advanced Class.

 

That is ultimately the problem.

 

Bounty Hunter is not a starter class in the way Rogue is a starter class in D&D games. BH is a story that you choose to follow.

 

Just because you are a Rogue does NOT mean that you are expected to become a Shadow Dancer or Assassin. But by being a Bounty Hunter you are expected to become a Merc or PT.

Edited July 26, 2013 by ekwalizer