ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Ratajack]

Bounty Hunter/Trooper and Inquisitor/Consular have access to all three roles (four if you consider ranged DPS and melee DPS separate roles) across their Advanced class. While Agent/Smuggler and Warrior/Knight have an AC that is purely DPS.

If anything allowing an AC change would open up a little flexibility for those playing as a Sniper or Marauder.

 

 

No class(AC) has access to all three roles. As for snipers/gunslingers and marauders/sentinels being pure DPS, this information was readily available at the time the class(AC) was selected, and the player CHOSE a class that was pure DPS, knowing that this was a PERMANENT choice. In fact, the roles of each of the AC's are available to see when creating the character, as well. I do admit, though, that may not have been the case originally. I had done the research and knew what basic class I wanted to play and which class I was going to choose when I reached that level.

 

Given the availability of information regarding class roles and the repeated warnings that the choice was permanent, I see no reason to allow class changes, even for "flexibility".

[Ratajack]

 

The quote that I have put links to in the past was made by the lead designer 8 months ago (November 16th) and was less than ambiguous.

 

I thought that statement had been made in February of 2012, not November, so I will stand corrected on the timing. That said, however, how is this quote anything BUT ambiguous?

 

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Damion Schubert from Dulfy.net November 16th 2012

We have had serious talks recently about offering an Advanced Class change option – I think that one will likely happen eventually.

 

 

"likely happen eventually" is not definitive by any means. There is no definite statement that it WILL happen, nor is there any indication of a time frame. "Eventually" could be tomorrow, next month or ten years from now, and that's if it even happens, since "likely" does not mean "will".

[Vhaegrant]

"likely happen eventually" is not definitive by any means. There is no definite statement that it WILL happen, nor is there any indication of a time frame. "Eventually" could be tomorrow, next month or ten years from now, and that's if it even happens, since "likely" does not mean "will".

 

And here we continue to split semantic hairs.

'Likely' by definition just means 'probable - plausible - feasible - apt - fit - possible'.

At no point did I state that an AC change function was definite, imminent or even in the pipeline. Just that it had been discussed by the developers and was a future possibility. To me an ambiguous statement would be one that didn't make direct mention of any discussions of the possibility of an AC change or if it would ever indeed happen.

I'm really not that interested in a time frame, I think sooner would be better than later to appeal to any players on the fence about coming back or resurrect interest in a character put to one side.

 

At this point in the discussion I'm more interested in understanding why a faction of players are so offended by the option and what sort of game balance/ exploits issues need to be resolved.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Vhaegrant

[Jimvinny]

Really?

 

Do you have any links to show that marauders/sentinels and snipers/gunslingers top the DPS charts on a consistent basis as those are the only classes that are DPS only?

 

Are you only stating how you think it should be?

 

Is this a serious question? If it is, get a clue. and check torparse. There's no doubt that slingers/snipers and sents/marauders are the highest dps classes. There are exceptions to this, but ON AVERAGE, these classes do more dps.

 

As for the guy who told me not to worry about how others play the game, you really ought to rethink that statement. if we go by your way of thinking, If you managed to get the mount from S&V NiM, and I want the devs to just give it to me, you can just stay the hell out of it, since how I play the game is not up to you at all.

 

Fact of the matter is, some things should be earned. this included max level characters.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Jimvinny

[LordArtemis]

I guess some people would rather ask for something to be given to them than to actually put forth the effort to get what they want.

 

There is no effort in a video game. Challenge...no effort. You spend next to nothing in energy and calories to play a video game.

 

So you could say "take the challenge" but not "put forth the effort" since there is zero effort required from both choices.

[MajikMyst]

There is no effort in a video game. Challenge...no effort. You spend next to nothing in energy and calories to play a video game.

 

So you could say "take the challenge" but not "put forth the effort" since there is zero effort required from both choices.

 

You have never played chess have you?? Not all effort is physical.. Challenge does not equate to physical effort..

 

Leveling a new character does require effort and can be a challenge for some.. Hence this thread.. It requires timing, memory, and eye hand coordination.. All of which takes effort to use..

 

Spending energy and burning calories are not required for doing something that is challenging or requires effort..

Edited July 25, 2013 by MajikMyst

[MajikMyst]

At this point in the discussion I'm more interested in understanding why a faction of players are so offended by the option and what sort of game balance/ exploits issues need to be resolved.

 

The biggest reason in a nut shell is that it changes the game.. It turns it into something that is yet more easy than it is now.. For some that is all people care about.. They want dual spec'ing, the want AC swapping, they want legacy datacrons.. When does it end?? When the game no longer requires play??

 

The argument for datacrons is such that it can also be used for leveling characters.. Yes, that has already come up.. Some people want legacy 50's or now 55's.. They don't want to level any more because they are bored with it..

 

Class changing was always an unwritten rule that was never violated.. You chose your class at the beginning of play and if wanted a new class you had to create another character.. So people are just claiming that the AC is not a class.. Without any backing in fact or logic they are making this claim so that they are NOT asking for a class change.. Like this really fools anyone.. During the Beta, Bioware stated that the AC was in fact our class.. They is how they see them and how they treat them.. What others think on that issue is irrelevant..

 

Bioware also stated that they didn't want any one character having access to both tanking and healing.. A lesson they learned from WOW.. The 2 most popular characters were Paladins and Druids.. Why?? They could both tank and heal..

 

Also AC swapping isn't fair or equal for all classes.. What is in it for a Guardian tank?? He already has one of the top DPS spec's, not to mention a good tank.. Why change to a Sentinel?? Why would a Scoundrel change to a gunslinger??

 

There really is no argument here.. There is simply no reason except for laziness to desire the things mentioned above.. If someone is to lazy to get the datacrons, roll a new AC, live with the slight inconvenience of entering your spec, then why play the game?? The entire point of playing the game is to play it.. Not sit back and demand that everything it done for you.. The point of having an alt is to level that alt.. To progress it like a separate character.. Legacy was never designed to be a reason or an excuse not to play the game..

 

It is always ignored but I will always say it because it is something nobody can argue with.. The game says in 4 separate areas that your choice of AC is permanent.. 2 are from text and 2 are from conversation.. That is Bioware talking.. The Jolly Green Giant didn't put that part in the game.. Bioware did.. It directly addresses the question of this thread.. Like I said.. Always ignored.. Either that or people are really dysfunctional when it comes to words like permanent..

 

I really wish the easy mode dressed in the letters (QOL) people would stop being lazy and just play the game.. How about we look for things that would actually make the game better.. Like Pazaak.. More content.. More events.. AC swapping goes against everything that Bioware has stated previously..

Edited July 25, 2013 by MajikMyst

[LordArtemis]

You have never played chess have you?? Not all effort is physical.. Challenge does not equate to physical effort..

 

Chess is not a video game.

 

Leveling a new character does require effort and can be a challenge for some.. Hence this thread.. It requires timing, memory, and eye hand coordination.. All of which takes effort to use..

 

There MIGHT be a few rare exceptions where actual effort is required. Challenge, sure, as I indicated. Hence my point.

 

Timing? Memory? eye hand coordination? Sure, if your using a gamepad. Playing a video game requires the same amount of effort as having a bowel movement.

 

Spending energy and burning calories are not required for doing something that is challenging or requires effort..

 

Pretending it takes effort to play a video game is like pretending it takes effort to breath. Is it tough for some folks...sure...but for most it is just BREATHING.

 

If you can lay back in the chair, post your digits AWSD close to your num keys and grab your mouse...you can play an MMO.

 

Football takes effort. Soccer takes effort....heck, even checkers takes more effort than a video game.

 

Video games present a mild mental challenge. Even less so for MMOs. EVEN LESS SO FOR SWTOR.

 

I was also under the impression that we had agreed not to discuss anything with each other since our little "incident".....or perhaps you forgot about that.

Edited July 25, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Ratajack]

At this point in the discussion I'm more interested in understanding why a faction of players are so offended by the option and what sort of game balance/ exploits issues need to be resolved.

 

Both of these points have been covered multiple times in this thread. If you don't agree with the reasons why many are adamantly against allowing class changes stating those reasons again now would not change your mind.

[MajikMyst]

Chess is not a video game.

 

Actually it is.. Shows you what you know.. I played chess when I was a teenager in the 80's on an old TI/99-4A computer.. You could use the keyboard or a joystick to move the hand to pick up and move the pieces.. Chess can be played on your computer just like Monopoly and many other classic board games..

 

Regardless, my point stands.. Effort does not require physical action.. The fact that you think it does shows that you should have put more effort into your studies on science..

 

Piloting an aircraft today is little more than playing a videogame.. Everything is fly by wire and computer assisted now.. But don't tell a pilot that what they do does not require effort.. They will just laugh at you.. This is just such a simple concept.. What about the people that pilot the UAV's?? Isn't that just a video game?? If you say that takes no effort then I will laugh at you..

 

Many college classes are taught online now.. All the assignments are done online, the study material is online.. Are you actually claiming that doing a homework assignment online takes no effort?? You use the same physical activity needed to play SWTOR..

 

I could go on here.. But I hope you are smart enough to see how simple this is.. You aren't going to win this one.. Effort is not defined by physical activity or calories burned..

 

As for the rest of your remarks.. Well.. I hope you wipe when you are finished.. Or would that require to much effort for you??

Edited July 25, 2013 by MajikMyst

[Ratajack]

There is no effort in a video game. Challenge...no effort. You spend next to nothing in energy and calories to play a video game.

 

So you could say "take the challenge" but not "put forth the effort" since there is zero effort required from both choices.

 

Effort does not require vast amounts of calories or energy to be spent. Effort, ion this case, refers to the actual "doing" of something. It takes effort to drive to work, even though you burn almost no calories doing so.

 

Many of those wanting class changes are putting more effort into asking the rules of the game to be changed because the rules don't suit them, than they are putting into actually leveling a new character and gaining that new class.

[Vhaegrant]

The biggest reason in a nut shell is that it changes the game.. It turns it into something that is yet more easy than it is now.. For some that is all people care about.. They want dual spec'ing, the want AC swapping, they want legacy datacrons.. When does it end?? When the game no longer requires play??

Of course it changes the game, there would be very little point in having a forum if it didn't allow gamers the chance to debate the sort of changes they want to see. Perhaps more than any other form of game MMOs are subject to constant development and redesign. Sometimes on small quality of life features, sometime on new systems and content. But always in a state of change.

For this particular discussion my debate ends with AC change and the restrictions associated with it, that is all. I see no need to roll over into discussing other elements of the game they have their own threads.

 

The argument for datacrons is such that it can also be used for leveling characters.. Yes, that has already come up.. Some people want legacy 50's or now 55's.. They don't want to level any more because they are bored with it..

How does their boredom effect you? If they find the game boring they are less likely to play, if they are not playing they are less likely to pay. I find it slightly amusing that many gamers in MMOs carry over a sense of elitism from an earlier generation of games that involvement in an MMO should be based around tedious time sink activities rather than skill based activities.

 

Class changing was always an unwritten rule that was never violated.. You chose your class at the beginning of play and if wanted a new class you had to create another character.. So people are just claiming that the AC is not a class.. Without any backing in fact or logic they are making this claim so that they are NOT asking for a class change.. Like this really fools anyone.. During the Beta, Bioware stated that the AC was in fact our class.. They is how they see them and how they treat them.. What others think on that issue is irrelevant..

And in most other MMOs that distinction stands well because that choice is made at level one. SWTOR muddies the waters significantly in this aspect because the sole identifier throughout the single player portion of the game is the class (Bounty Hunter for example), the choice to chose an AC is not made until level 10 when you have already started to think in these more general terms. Doing it this way makes the Advanced Class feel more like a sub-set of the Story class.

 

Bioware also stated that they didn't want any one character having access to both tanking and healing.. A lesson they learned from WOW.. The 2 most popular characters were Paladins and Druids.. Why?? They could both tank and heal..

The difference here is that Paladins, Druids and I believe now Monks have access to the abilities of both tank, healing and DPS at ALL times with a bit of focus on specialisation. Back when I played WoW (there were no monks then) a Druid could flip between Ranged DPS, Melee DPS, Heal or Tank at the flip of a button by the animal form they chose. However, I was under the impression that this flexibility was balanced by them not being as good at any one of those particular roles as a class that specialise din it. They were handy to have around to give you a choice in tactics for an Off-healer, Off-tank etc For a Paladin to fill the different roles they had to respec.

But this still doesn't change the fact that an AC change doesn't open up access to BOTH sets of AC abilities at the SAME time. You have to chose whether you will have access for the tanking abilities OR the healing abilities.

 

Also AC swapping isn't fair or equal for all classes.. What is in it for a Guardian tank?? He already has one of the top DPS spec's, not to mention a good tank.. Why change to a Sentinel?? Why would a Scoundrel change to a gunslinger??

So you are arguing the point that there are certain Advanced Classes that are more advantageous to play and if you managed to chose one of these on AC choice good for you but if you didn't then tough luck?

Why change from Juggernaut/Guardian to Marauder/Sentinel maybe because you want to use two sabres instead of one. Scoundrel/Gunslinger maybe they get tired of stealth and want to pick up a second pistol.

It's about opening up a further avenue of choice for a player that is invested in a character.

 

There really is no argument here.. There is simply no reason except for laziness to desire the things mentioned above.. If someone is to lazy to get the datacrons, roll a new AC, live with the slight inconvenience of entering your spec, then why play the game?? The entire point of playing the game is to play it.. Not sit back and demand that everything it done for you.. The point of having an alt is to level that alt.. To progress it like a separate character.. Legacy was never designed to be a reason or an excuse not to play the game..

There obviously is an argument or else we wouldn't have so many pages of discussion. And, I don't think it is one of laziness but more one of how much time you have to play the game. A growing portion of the market is composed of gamers with greater restrictions on their time budget, placing the game in a 'requires a large time sink' puts this potential market out of the picture.

I'm not talking about giving out Best in Slot items here or filling in achievements, I'm debating for an additional option. If you have the time to level up additional characters to cover all ACs then go for it. Many of the players I know have aspirations to go through all the class stories.

And I'm certainly not advocating that a level 55 Bounty Hunter should be able to swap over to a level 55 Sith Warrior or level 55 Trooper. Although there are many that want faction swapping in some form.

 

It is always ignored but I will always say it because it is something nobody can argue with.. The game says in 4 separate areas that your choice of AC is permanent.. 2 are from text and 2 are from conversation.. That is Bioware talking.. The Jolly Green Giant didn't put that part in the game.. Bioware did.. It directly addresses the question of this thread.. Like I said.. Always ignored.. Either that or people are really dysfunctional when it comes to words like permanent..

It is not ignored on my part. I freely acknowledge that the point at which you currently make the choice on AC is clearly labelled as permanent. I don't on the other hand feel this is the winning point to prevent any further debate on whether an AC change option is a plausible possibility for the future of the game.

 

I really wish the easy mode dressed in the letters (QOL) people would stop being lazy and just play the game.. How about we look for things that would actually make the game better.. Like Pazaak.. More content.. More events.. AC swapping goes against everything that Bioware has stated previously..

It's not an issue of laziness. I suspect there is an element to the discussion that if you aren't good enough to clear endgame content (NiM Scum and Villany) the only aspects of the game you can claim ownership over are those that just require time rather than skill. But more than that should be a realisation that in an MMO there are many different types of players with many differing requirements on what they find 'fun'.

 

Allowing for an AC change doesn't take away in any form the satisfaction of having played through the story multiple times to earn a stable of characters. And you will have been rewarded for this effort by having access to many more dailies/ weeklies, crew/ crafting missions and inventory space. Nothing about an AC change takes anything away from this level of achievement.

 

It does however open up the game to those operating under tighter time constraints and do not want to experience 99% of the same content while levelling up the alternative AC.

[Vhaegrant]

Effort does not require vast amounts of calories or energy to be spent. Effort, ion this case, refers to the actual "doing" of something. It takes effort to drive to work, even though you burn almost no calories doing so.

I think you'd be surprised at how many calories your brain burns when active, such as in heavy traffic. There was a study carried out on children some time ago that showed when watching TV less calories were burnt than when sitting still and not watching TV.

 

Many of those wanting class changes are putting more effort into asking the rules of the game to be changed because the rules don't suit them, than they are putting into actually leveling a new character and gaining that new class.

I've put the effort into levelling 8 character to 55 through the unique class stories with a 9th just starting the third chapter. What I do have is insomnia and a dull commute that gives me plenty of spare time to browse the forums when I don't have direct access to the game client

[Vhaegrant]

Both of these points have been covered multiple times in this thread. If you don't agree with the reasons why many are adamantly against allowing class changes stating those reasons again now would not change your mind.

 

It certainly has boiled down to a circular argument between a handful of contributors. I don't agree with the reasons based on the statements you have made, which is largely things should not change, advancement should be through time rather than skill. Many more of the reasons seem to be knee jerk reactions that other games don't allow class changes, it invalidates the time I've spent (point to make, pretty much any new expansion with a new gear tier does this as well), I don't want others to have more options than I had. They seem to stem from a place of elitism that contribution to an MMO is based on time spent and not from skill.

 

And there are just as many contributors who stand on the side of wanting a little more flexibility and understand that as long as any change stops short of being pay to win or handing out Best in slot items, it has zero impact on how any one else plays the game.

[LordArtemis]

Effort does not require vast amounts of calories or energy to be spent. Effort, ion this case, refers to the actual "doing" of something. It takes effort to drive to work, even though you burn almost no calories doing so.

 

Many of those wanting class changes are putting more effort into asking the rules of the game to be changed because the rules don't suit them, than they are putting into actually leveling a new character and gaining that new class.

 

Actually the effort, if you want to call it that is virtually the same.

[ekwalizer]

Bounty Hunter, Trooper, Warrior, Knight, Consular, Inquisitor, Smuggler and Agent are STORIES. They are not classes.

 

The only change they ought to make is to have you select your AC from within your STORY at character creation.

Edited July 25, 2013 by ekwalizer

[branmakmuffin]

Both of these points have been covered multiple times in this thread. If you don't agree with the reasons why many are adamantly against allowing class changes stating those reasons again now would not change your mind.

It's not a surprise that some are opposed to it. What's a surprise is that they are so adamant about something so trivial.

[Spatology]

I'm not opposed to AC change, as long as I'm allowed to do so unlimited times on command much like field respec.

 

I like options. I don't like being nickeled and dimmed by bioware.

[CommanderKeeva]

I see no reason not to allow Advanced Class changes as long as there is a reasonable limit (once per month maybe) to it to prevent people from abusing it. Like changing from Shadow Tank to Sage Healer between Voidstar rounds.

 

People have no idea how ACs will work out. People have no idea how viable their classes will be at endgame. People have no idea if Bioware will break their classes so utterly that they become unplayable (Lethality Operative, Pyrotech or Bodyguard Mercenary). Or say, if a guild is not recruiting Scoundrel DPS (because they're so bad at the moment), said person could switch to Gunslinger and be accepted without having to get another character to 55.

 

When you get another character to 55, you lose everything you've collected on that character. Speeders, pets, titles, Codex entries....everything. People don't like losing everything.

 

AC change shouldn't be abused but what's wrong with allowing one change per month to adjust for the random cycle of nerfs BW seems to be handing out? What's the big deal with changing from a DPS Operative to a DPS Sniper?

[branmakmuffin]

I'm not opposed to AC change, as long as I'm allowed to do so unlimited times on command much like field respec.

 

I like options. I don't like being nickeled and dimmed by bioware.

We all know if it's ever allowed, it will cost CC.

[Ratajack]

It certainly has boiled down to a circular argument between a handful of contributors. I don't agree with the reasons based on the statements you have made, which is largely things should not change, advancement should be through time rather than skill. Many more of the reasons seem to be knee jerk reactions that other games don't allow class changes, it invalidates the time I've spent (point to make, pretty much any new expansion with a new gear tier does this as well), I don't want others to have more options than I had. They seem to stem from a place of elitism that contribution to an MMO is based on time spent and not from skill.

 

And there are just as many contributors who stand on the side of wanting a little more flexibility and understand that as long as any change stops short of being pay to win or handing out Best in slot items, it has zero impact on how any one else plays the game.

 

Why stop short of allowing creation of max level characters with all companions at max affection with all companion unlocks and BIS gear if a player has already achieved all those things on one character. That player may not find those things to be "fun", and instead simply "time sinks". It really has little to no impact on how player A plays the game if player B creates that max level character.

[Ratajack]

It's not a surprise that some are opposed to it. What's a surprise is that they are so adamant about something so trivial.

 

Many would say that allowing class changes is hardly trivial. If it were, there would not be so many people on both sides of this issue with such strong opinions.

[spectreclees]

I am surprised this thread still has many people posting ideas. I for one, did the right thing and re rolled back to a shadow from my transition to Empire - > Republic. I had rolled a Guardian but then decided I had missed my Sin from empire and made a Shadow. I am already back to a point in the game where my gear is where it was before with my Guardian and most of my quests/achievements are caught up.

 

I think you guys can do it.

[Ratajack]

I am surprised this thread still has many people posting ideas. I for one, did the right thing and re rolled back to a shadow from my transition to Empire - > Republic. I had rolled a Guardian but then decided I had missed my Sin from empire and made a Shadow. I am already back to a point in the game where my gear is where it was before with my Guardian and most of my quests/achievements are caught up.

 

I think you guys can do it.

 

 

Most people know they CAN do it. They just don't WANT to do it.

[Ratajack]

 

When you get another character to 55, you lose everything you've collected on that character. Speeders, pets, titles, Codex entries....everything. People don't like losing everything.

 

 

This is the most valid reason I have seen for allowing class changes, IMO.

 

That is why I suggested the compromise of a one time change of AC with that change reducing the character to level 10, resetting all non story quests. This allows those who have unique items no longer obtainable to keep those items, and eliminate the need to go through the same story line a second time; but would also alleviate many of the concerns of those against AC changes. To offset the loss of XP from the completed story line quests, a passive XP boost could be applied to those characters who change AC.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Ratajack