ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Vhaegrant]

I think you are missing the point.. Sure there were a few class specific quests.. So what?? That again has no bearing on what a class is or isn't.. Every class in the game pretty much does the same quests from outland on to level.. Faction being the only thing that separates the quests.. Horde quests were always different than Alliance.. WOTLK, Cata, and finally MOP didn't change anything.. All classes do the same quests.. Again faction being the only difference.. SWTOR has the same separation with faction that WOW has.. Imperials do different quests than the republic.. WOW's story was based on race..

 

Class story doesn't define anything accept the to point out that it would be way to expensive to do 16 stories instead of just 8.. And to claim that the stories proves that the AC is not a class is simply ignoring the obvious.. One being that Bioware didn't have the time or money to do 16 stories.. Second that characters in other MMO's do many of the same classes and it has no bearing on whether or not they are the same class..

 

Bioware on 4 separate occasions says in the game, 2 are text and 2 are voice, that your choice is permanent.. It doesn't get any clearer than that..

 

The debate about whether or not an AC is a class or not only comes to belittle or devalue the class so the change that people are asking for won't sound that dramatic.. What they don't realize is that they aren't fooling anyone.. Except perhaps themselves..

 

Looks and appearance have no bearing on class.. They chose their class when they chose their AC.. That was their single defining moment.. You can't wish that to be different.. It is what it is..

I'm not missing the point. In most of my posts I accept that there is a different viewpoint to mine, hence the discussion. I have always stated that I see two main camps of play, those gamers that focus on story (my camp) and those gamers that focus on mechanics (your camp).

I think the suggestion of an AC change is offensive to many in the second camp (and maybe to some in the first as well) because it belittles the choice they have made in choosing the role they will play by making the time they have spent on researching and levelling an advanced class mean less. I think this comes from associating very closely to the character and gaining some sense of real life validation from your gaming experience. (In many respects this is a very similar sentiment to the arguments seen in the 'earn it by playing/ purchase it with CC' threads).

On the other hand I'm just here to have a bit of fun, chill out from the grim realities of my real life work and hopefully when/if I can ever persuade my pals to get online at the same time have a bit of multiplayer mayhem. It is after all a game

 

Bioware is the only authority on this issue.. There is no argument.. Because of the fact, there is no governing body that defines what a class is or isn't.. Game publishers have the right to determine class for themselves.. So debating the issue is both stupid and a waste of time..

So you would suggest Bioware close the forums? After all debate is stupid and a waste of time

Edited July 24, 2013 by Vhaegrant

[LordArtemis]

Lol.

 

The saga continues.

 

There are reasons to allow AC change...reputable ones at that. There are also reputable reasons, IMO. to not allow it.

[Vhaegrant]

Lol.

 

The saga continues.

 

There are reasons to allow AC change...reputable ones at that. There are also reputable reasons, IMO. to not allow it.

 

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!

Edited July 24, 2013 by Vhaegrant

[hillerbees]

Can this thread be closed?

 

The advance class choice is an EPIC moment in the game and it is a LIFE decision for your character. If this changes I am outta here and don't worry the door won't hit me on the way out.

 

To all who disagree, one word - RE-ROLL

[LordArtemis]

I will not leave if they allow it...I will be disappointed though.

 

Again, I will not deny something the majority wants, if that is the case, for my selfish benefit. That said, I hope it remains a permanent choice.

[branmakmuffin]

Can this thread be closed?

'Cause that's a better solution than you simply ignoring it.

Edited July 24, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[TridusSWTOR]

You are correct. Last time I checked, In SWoTR, you are not allowed to change your class either.

 

Hence the whole point of this topic, to add a QoL change. Since all AC's only start fully blooming around 40, which is way too late in the game to see if you like a AC or not.

 

Oh let me guess, re-roll is your next response? How about....No.

 

You have been debunked. Nice try at being witty though, I'll give you that, too bad it fell short.

[TridusSWTOR]

Well.. See that is what I did offer.. Was a context.. You just missed it.. Nothing new there..

 

As for me being debunked?? Not hardly.. Not only does your post prove that you don't understand basic comparisons and contexts.. But it also proves me right.. See.. I doubt you are as stupid as you would like others to believe you are.. You just can't argue with me, because you know I am right..

 

Instead of attempting to make your point about main stats, (Which of course you have no point..) you went on to attempt to discredit my example of WOW.. Then went on to ask me for exactly what I gave you.. A meaningful context of the game..

 

Yes this is SWTOR, but as I said.. In order for your logic to be valid here, it has to be valid in other MMO's.. For logic to work, it has to work everywhere.. You can't say that two classes here are different classes because they share a main stat.. When in other games, a main stat does not determine a class.. Double standards are not logical.. Not to mention double standards sort of make you look like a fool..

 

As for being debunked?? Well.. You better get close to your mirror.. That is the only way you are going to see someone debunked..

 

Oh so WoW is in context of this game? Two different MMO settings is totally context.

 

Thanks for proving me right, for the third time and openly admitting that you failed to provide context once again.

 

It seems all you could provide is insults, which shows exactly how much merit your argument has...which is none. I would double check what main stat is bud, it seems you have no idea what it means. Do you even play this game at this point?

 

Once again, debunked.

 

Pro-tip- If you have call End on a tank spec a main stat, well you already lost.

[branmakmuffin]

Oh so WoW is in context of this game? Two different MMO settings is totally context.

 

Thanks for proving me right, for the third time and openly admitting that you failed to provide context once again.

Citing WoW as iron-clad proof of what TOR should do is rather weak, eh? That's his go-to song.

[TridusSWTOR]

Bioware is the only authority on this issue.. There is no argument.. Because of the fact, there is no governing body that defines what a class is or isn't.. Game publishers have the right to determine class for themselves.. So debating the issue is both stupid and a waste of time..

 

Looks and appearance have no bearing on class.. They chose their class when they chose their AC.. That was their single defining moment.. You can't wish that to be different.. It is what it is..

 

Bioware didn't want sprint at level 1 either. Oh wait they changed that.

 

Yea, offering change is part of a a healthy MMO's life, I hate to break that little nugget of truth for you. It's clear you don't know anything about running a business since you would rather make things frustrating for a player rather than hear them out.

 

Thank god you aren't a dev though. Bioware listened to it's players before and changed their stance on issues, this is no different. I guess you left that part out didn't you? How convenient

 

Let me guess, your next response is- "You can't compare sprint and AC changes omgerd!" Why? because it utterly destroys your entire argument about bioware not willing to change? I thought so.

 

You have been debunked, again.

[TridusSWTOR]

Citing WoW as iron-clad proof of what TOR should do is rather weak, eh? That's his go-to song.

 

The sad thing about this is.

 

It breaks down to a very simple and fundamental thing.

 

Anti-AC change supporters- Offer only their choice and that's it. They are enforcing how other players should play the game, based solely on a selfish nature.

 

Pro-AC change supporters- We offer a choice whether you take up the AC change feature or you don't. Either way, the player gets the best of both worlds.

 

Once these anti-AC supporters wipe the foam from their mouths. Then we can start accepting terms and restrictions on how an AC change system should happen.

 

Some already did, but once again the anti-AC supporters only offer restrictions that make it pointless to AC change! How shocking

 

As a AC change supporter- I don't want unlimited AC changes at a moments notice.

 

1. High CC/Credit cost

2. Allow change from 11-55

3. Let them change 3 times total

4. Let it be a week long CD.

 

I think that's fair. Actually I might consider removing that 3 times total cap, why should there be a cap? No reason for that, just add a longer CD. I will settle for 3 though for now, just to throw the anti-AC change party a bone.

Edited July 24, 2013 by TridusSWTOR

[Superman_AZ]

To all who disagree, one word - RE-ROLL

Re-roll is a choice. However, re-roll should not be the ONLY choice. More than one great concept for a QoL issue has stemmed from ideas from fans. Many of the improvements to SWTOR have been fan related. Being able to move from Tank to Healer to DPS by visiting a trainer should be a workable option. The only difference between this and field respec is having access to all 6 trees instead of just 3. And, now that adaptive armor is the new norm, you could go from medium armor as a Sentinel to Heavy armor as a Knight just by visiting the trainer and re-ADVANCED speccing.

 

We should invite MORE options into the game... not fewer.

[Yungscion]

Reroll

 

This seems to be the only option a the 'No AC Change' camp want to offer. While it is valid in the sense that I can absolutely reroll and play as the other AC there are several factor where this loses validity.

 

1) Story focus - for those who play this game for the story, we are actually likely to only ever make 8 characters as nothing about the game changes between advanced classes save for 2 skill trees, a portion of your abilities, and your available roles. All of that is inconsequential to why we play, the story. Being able to change AC after we come to find we don't like it, is important to use as we don't want to redo the story and in essence delete our character. Remember we aren't looking to fast track to end game on any character.

 

2) Research tells you only part of the story - I thought I would like healing as an Operative as I loved my Resto Druid and Warden Cleric but I was wrong, the healing for Operative at my current level (32) leads me to believe the style of healing on Operative is not for me (seems more akin to Disc Priest which I never liked)

 

3) Parent Node Class - as a agent I have 1 story regardless of AC, 1 ship, and 1 set of companions. To a player like myself focused on the story and journey, restarting is a huge endeavor.

 

4) Immersion - it actually makes sense that I would be able to receive training and re specialize. After all I am a member of a mighty military, and military's quite often allow for their soldier to receive additional specialized training. It would make 100% sense for my Agent to go complete some sort of quest to learn how to become a sniper.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Yungscion

[Ottoattack]

The question is always why not? If you don't like the option do not use it. If someone does they can use it.

[LordArtemis]

Current list, pros and cons as reported by participants.

 

 

Option 1

Level 10 to 15 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - 24 hour cooldown - once you reach level 16 AC is permanent - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 2

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 3

 

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - no reduction in level - one month cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 4

 

Level 10 to 30 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 5

Level 10 to 46 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will up to 46 - no reduction in level - no cooldown - once you reach level 47 AC is permanent - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 6

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 7

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - Must level one character to max level in an AC to unlock legacy ability to switch AC for that class - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 8

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - maximum 8 changes per account, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 9

 

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum number of changes - must change at AC trainers on fleet - 1 Week cooldown - Option for AC change unlocked as Character Perk for 600 cartel Coins (or 1.5 million credits) - Each subsequent AC change costs 40 cartel coins (or 100,000 credits).

 

Option 10

 

No AC change allowed.

 

 

 

And this is the pro and con list as it stands right now. It is certainly open for more additions or corrections.

 

 

PROS

 

1. breathing life into characters that may have been abandoned and thus extending someone's stay in game, their enjoyment in game.

2. allowing people who only have fun playing through a story once - experiment with their character without having to suffer through the story they already know and aren't having fun replaying.

3. allowing people to keep using unique, no longer acquirable items, that include pets, speeders, crystals, armor shells, as well as legacy perk unlocks on a character they have grown attached to, while enjoying the game play style that works better for them, within the same archetype, rather than having to reroll from scratch and lose all the investment they made into a character.

4. making extra money for bioware by making ac switch purchasable with cartel coins.

 

 

CONS

 

1) I would expect that many folks are not going to react well to this change if implemented.

2) They flirted with the idea before launch, even talked about it publicly, but in the end decided not to allow it. At the time folks were pretty dead set against it. I don't think it's likely the current environment has changed much since then.

3) Some classes could end up underrepresented due to bad design. Right now some folks stick with an AC they choose because they would have to reroll and do not wish to do so I would guess.

4) If restrictions are not in place this could end up being abused or exploited.

5) This will likely further demean AC choice.

6) Could cause FOTM issues.

7) If late game AC change is allowed it could end up causing folks that have an AC but do not know how to properly play it running Raids and Operations, making an existing problem worse.

 

 

I have decided to support option 1, option 7 but would prefer option 10. I like the idea of option 7...you have to level an AC to max level to get a legacy unlock you can use to switch to that AC inside the class for another character account wide.

 

I still prefer no AC change, but I'm open to support 1 and 7.

 

I would also add what I would like to see happen with respect to AC.

 

1) Bioware would come out and publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that AC IS YOUR CLASS.

 

2) Make AC choice mandatory at level 10, move all abilities under the AC heading in the abilities pane and remove the base class header, move all trainable abilities from that point forward under the AC header on the trainer.

 

3) Remove all references in the game to your base class that can be removed once you choose your AC.

 

4) Add a small quest line at max level that is AC specific, where they refer to your AC directly.

 

IMO this would make the choice more meaningful.

[Yungscion]

I still prefer no AC change, but I'm open to support 1 and 7.

 

I would also add what I would like to see happen with respect to AC.

 

1) Bioware would come out and publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that AC IS YOUR CLASS.

 

2) Make AC choice mandatory at level 10, move all abilities under the AC heading in the abilities pane and remove the base class header, move all trainable abilities from that point forward under the AC header on the trainer.

 

3) Remove all references in the game to your base class that can be removed once you choose your AC.

 

4) Add a small quest line at max level that is AC specific, where they refer to your AC directly.

 

IMO this would make the choice more meaningful.

 

Option 1 is to early to really decide, you will have only put enough points into you skill tree to get to tier 2 and you will only have a handful of you AC specific abilities.

 

Option 7 is pointless, because one already has the class and in the case of the story driven player they aren't given the ability to change there one character of X class to the other AC unless they already rerolled which in there case is the thing they are trying to avoid.

 

Best option:

 

Open it to a 1x AC change between level 25-35 , level 50 or level 55 with a cost of 1K CC .

 

- The level restriction gives the player plenty of time to decide if they don't like the current AC, either they can decided while leveling, or at max while playing endgame.

- The 1x means that this is still meaning full as if you end up not liking the other side of the grass, too bad.

- The CC cost forces it to also be a thoughtful as it becomes a monetary purchase not just a credit purchase.

[Ratajack]

Re-roll is a choice. However, re-roll should not be the ONLY choice. More than one great concept for a QoL issue has stemmed from ideas from fans. Many of the improvements to SWTOR have been fan related. Being able to move from Tank to Healer to DPS by visiting a trainer should be a workable option. The only difference between this and field respec is having access to all 6 trees instead of just 3. And, now that adaptive armor is the new norm, you could go from medium armor as a Sentinel to Heavy armor as a Knight just by visiting the trainer and re-ADVANCED speccing.

 

We should invite MORE options into the game... not fewer.

 

Sometimes, there IS only one option. I'm not saying that the devs can't change their stance, but is is not necessary that they do. Every player already has the option to have that other AC.

 

The devs specifically designed this game so that no ONE character could fill all three roles. Allowing class changes would negate this intentional design.

[branmakmuffin]

Sometimes, there IS only one option. I'm not saying that the devs can't change their stance, but is is not necessary that they do. Every player already has the option to have that other AC.

Of course it's not necessary. It's a game. No part of it is necessary.

 

The devs specifically designed this game so that no ONE character could fill all three roles. Allowing class changes would negate this intentional design.

And, again, if they make that change, that's their decision.

[Ratajack]

Of course it's not necessary. It's a game. No part of it is necessary.

 

 

And, again, if they make that change, that's their decision.

 

Just as it is their decision if they choose NOT to allow class changes, which they have not, at this time.

 

In the time that this thread has existed, everyone of the entitled masses wishing to change their class could have leveled that other class to 55 and probably gotten that new character well geared. I guess some people would rather ask for something to be given to them than to actually put forth the effort to get what they want.

[branmakmuffin]

In the time that this thread has existed, everyone of the entitled masses wishing to change their class could have leveled that other class to 55 and probably gotten that new character well geared. I guess some people would rather ask for something to be given to them than to actually put forth the effort to get what they want.

Again with the anger.

[Test_Eagle]

Again with the anger.

 

Um.. ok... I didn't detect any anger in that post. The poster made a reasonable statement.

 

 

My stance on this, if BW ever decided to allow AC change, I would want to be reimbursed for the time and effort I put into levelling 2 of every class.

[astrobearx]

Just as it is their decision if they choose NOT to allow class changes, which they have not, at this time.

 

In the time that this thread has existed, everyone of the entitled masses wishing to change their class could have leveled that other class to 55 and probably gotten that new character well geared. I guess some people would rather ask for something to be given to them than to actually put forth the effort to get what they want.

 

LOL that is a lot of derogatory generalization WITH NO FOUNDATION. Who say the ppl on this thread who want AC swap HASNT been lvling the opposite AC?

 

I fully support AC swapping and I have been lvling ALTs with ACs. As of now I'm dual lvling a SW mara AND jugg at the same time (which is simply easier than having to do the same story again later )

 

 

As always ratajack, you have shown yourself to be just a bias ego 1337 that want things to be done your way.

 

 

Good day/night

Edited July 24, 2013 by astrobearx

[astrobearx]

Um.. ok... I didn't detect any anger in that post. The poster made a reasonable statement.

 

 

My stance on this, if BW ever decided to allow AC change, I would want to be reimbursed for the time and effort I put into levelling 2 of every class.

seriously?

 

 

Rata flamed those who support ac with being a part of the "entitled masses", which is the new term/phrase for the ever old classic phrase "the great unwashed"

 

 

Edit whyh should you be reimbursed for the time you put into a video game?

 

Did bioware force you lvl an alt?

Edited July 24, 2013 by astrobearx

[Vhaegrant]

The devs specifically designed this game so that no ONE character could fill all three roles. Allowing class changes would negate this intentional design.

 

If the day comes that AC changes are implemented and they are as easy and cheap to get as respeccing the skill tree is now then the above statement may hold some merit. Even then an AC change would not allow a character access to tanking abilities and healing abilities at the same time.

 

If the option to change AC has a few realisitic restrictions placed on it, time limitation, cost, need to be in certain location, then this statement becomes even less relevant.

 

The devs also designed the game to be subscription only from the start, look how well that went Things change, and despite many gamers desires if you want a game to be as profitable as possible you cater to the tastes and desires of the larger audience. Only Bioware have the metrics at hand that would reveal whether there is much desire for this feature in those that are no longer subbed (and therefore unable to post on forum) and whether such a change would retain players or lure them back to play abandoned characters.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Vhaegrant

[Vhaegrant]

My stance on this, if BW ever decided to allow AC change, I would want to be reimbursed for the time and effort I put into levelling 2 of every class.

 

It's supposed to be fun, not a chore. There have been many changes that have reduced the effective effort put into the game, the proposal of an AC change feature would not be the first or I suspect the last such change to do this. For example I had expanded the personal inventory on six characters to maximum (80 slots) and their banks to 3 tabs before legacy came out. Once Legacy came out it was cheaper to unlock across account all inventory slots and all five bank tabs on any future character I make on any server.

 

Besides which having additional characters brings many more advantages than having a single character you chose to flip flop between ACs. You have more dailies, fps, ops available to run for greater credit earning potential. You have more crew mission slots and crafting options available. You have plenty of bank space to store materials and orange sets.