ETA on Advanced Class change?

[gorstram]

How can you know what is in bioware's best interest? Are you a dev? No? Then you don't know. Stop making false assumptions, just like you did with legacy wide datacrons.

 

Plus, you just said in you're post that if people don't want to play...they should LEAVE. Thus losing bioware a player base. So you rather people leave the game, so bioware loses money all so you can get your way.

 

That's a great business model to work with.

 

Please explain to me how a single class can both tank and heal. Even with AC change, go ahead tell me how they can both. So during an op, one group member can tank and heal himself during a boss fight. That is your claim, now explain it.

 

That's a strawman argument. Clearly he was stating that no one character should be able to convert from tank to healer. I know this was possible in WoW by dual speccing a paladin from protection to holy, but this game didn't opt for tanking and healing to be in the same three trees shared by a powertech/vanguard to mercenary/commando. I have been against AC changes from the get go, but admittedly my position has softened as of late. I would get behind something like this, only if it was expensive, and a one time deal.

[Truga]

If it were made available, we all know it would cost plenty of CC.

 

Well then, now we just have to convince Bioware to use the cash from CC sales to make a proper space game.

[Kilora]

Well then, now we just have to convince the moron execs at EA to use the cash from CC sales to make a proper space game.

 

Fixed that for ya =D

[LordArtemis]

I would like to see them do this.

 

1) Come out and publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that an AC IS A CLASS. Period. Leave no room for doubt.

 

2) Remove all base class abilities when you choose your AC, the ability to wear base class armor, etc. Provide AC abilities and armor from that point forward. The only exception would be adaptive gear.

 

To be clear, just delete the base class in your abilities panel and move all abilities into the AC column instead. Put all abilities in the trainer under your AC. No more abilities listed to train under your base class.

 

3) Make sure all listings, all references, everything (except perhaps class story, nothing can be done about that now) is changed to refer to you by your NEW CLASS....the AC you chose. There should not be one single remaining reference aside from story that refers to you by your original base class.

 

4) Work on and release, some time in the future, an short AC quest line that brings real meaning to the role you chose. Perhaps a bit of VO work where they directly call you by your new class name.

 

 

The choice I like the most is to keep it the way it is. No AC change, as long as they do what I posted above.

 

 

If we have to have AC change, this is the one I would feel most comfortable with.

Level 10 to 15 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - 24 hour cooldown - once you reach level 16 AC is permanent - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Edited June 21, 2013 by LordArtemis

[TridusSWTOR]

That's a strawman argument. Clearly he was stating that no one character should be able to convert from tank to healer. I know this was possible in WoW by dual speccing a paladin from protection to holy, but this game didn't opt for tanking and healing to be in the same three trees shared by a powertech/vanguard to mercenary/commando. I have been against AC changes from the get go, but admittedly my position has softened as of late. I would get behind something like this, only if it was expensive, and a one time deal.

 

I fully agree with you. The amount of times you can do it should be limited and it should come at a credit or CC cost. I think that's a fair trade.

 

I mean for the people who want it, they have to pay up. For the people who are content with their class, well they just saved some game bucks and time.

[SithKoriandr]

I would like to see them do this.

 

1) Come out and publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that an AC IS A CLASS. Period. Leave no room for doubt.

 

2) Remove all base class abilities when you choose your AC, the ability to wear base class armor, etc. Provide AC abilities and armor from that point forward. The only exception would be adaptive gear.

 

To be clear, just delete the base class in your abilities panel and move all abilities into the AC column instead. Put all abilities in the trainer under your AC. No more abilities listed to train under your base class.

 

3) Make sure all listings, all references, everything (except perhaps class story, nothing can be done about that now) is changed to refer to you by your NEW CLASS....the AC you chose. There should not be one single remaining reference aside from story that refers to you by your original base class.

 

4) Work on and release, some time in the future, an short AC quest line that brings real meaning to the role you chose. Perhaps a bit of VO work where they directly call you by your new class name.

 

 

The choice I like the most is to keep it the way it is. No AC change, as long as they do what I posted above.

 

 

If we have to have AC change, this is the one I would feel most comfortable with.

 

Level 10 to 15 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - 24 hour cooldown - once you reach level 16 AC is permanent - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

What's off is in other threads people are saying "Hey, if it gives BW more money, it's okay!" But then when it comes to this, all of a sudden, it's gone to far.

 

Allow this to happen, charge some CC for it, let BW get more money to put back into TOR! It's the best for the game! Remember, anything that puts more money into TOR is good! Like charging for cutscenes! That's a good idea because not everyone cares about the cutscenes and content and just want to smash buttons and get to max level.

 

And seriously, "You wouldn't know how to play your new AC" is the dumbest excuse not to do it, when people complain that there are max levels right now, without the feature, who don't know how to play their AC or even use the right mods.

 

The only reason not to allow people to pay CC to change their AC, is to deny TOR more money.

[TridusSWTOR]

I would like to see them do this.

 

1) Come out and publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that an AC IS A CLASS. Period. Leave no room for doubt.

 

2) Remove all base class abilities when you choose your AC, the ability to wear base class armor, etc. Provide AC abilities and armor from that point forward. The only exception would be adaptive gear.

 

To be clear, just delete the base class in your abilities panel and move all abilities into the AC column instead. Put all abilities in the trainer under your AC. No more abilities listed to train under your base class.

 

3) Make sure all listings, all references, everything (except perhaps class story, nothing can be done about that now) is changed to refer to you by your NEW CLASS....the AC you chose. There should not be one single remaining reference aside from story that refers to you by your original base class.

 

4) Work on and release, some time in the future, an short AC quest line that brings real meaning to the role you chose. Perhaps a bit of VO work where they directly call you by your new class name.

 

 

The choice I like the most is to keep it the way it is. No AC change, as long as they do what I posted above.

 

 

If we have to have AC change, this is the one I would feel most comfortable with.

Level 10 to 15 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - 24 hour cooldown - once you reach level 16 AC is permanent - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

If someone were to go with your solution. Then I would have to demand it cost next to nothing in terms of CC. Why only level 10-15? Every class fully blooms at level 30 to 40. Level 15 is just way too low to even get a grasp on what a AC will be like. Honestly, why a level frame at all? Just make it at any level.

 

Seems like way too much work than a easy on/off AC switch at a cost.

[astrobearx]

If someone were to go with your solution. Then I would have to demand it cost next to nothing in terms of CC. Why only level 10-15? Every class fully blooms at level 30 to 40. Level 15 is just way too low to even get a grasp on what a AC will be like. Honestly, why a level frame at all? Just make it at any level.

 

Seems like way too much work than a easy on/off AC switch at a cost.

seriously this. in fact, with lord propose idea make the anti AC side even more justify to call you a lazy slob as leveling another toon will take about the same amount of time as your idea, which is about 2~3 hours tops (in fact, if you were to use xp boost and open xp exploration 1 from lvl 1, you can get to lvl 10 within 2 hours. you even can skip the heroics (with heroics i got all my alt db xp toons to lvl 12 before leaving their starter worlds).

 

if AC change should be done, then it should at least be capped at 47 like what jewel said as you get to used all the AC tree abilities before making a well informed decision. at lvl 15, you only get the basic AC abilities.

 

for example, most healers abilities WONT SHINE until lvl 23~30.

 

a lvl 15 healer wont really get how healing works until he or she get it healing ticks first. the same got for tanks with it damage reduction abilities ACs.

Edited June 21, 2013 by astrobearx

[PeterTLJr]

I would like to see them do this.

 

1) Come out and publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that an AC IS A CLASS. Period. Leave no room for doubt.

 

2) Remove all base class abilities when you choose your AC, the ability to wear base class armor, etc. Provide AC abilities and armor from that point forward. The only exception would be adaptive gear.

 

To be clear, just delete the base class in your abilities panel and move all abilities into the AC column instead. Put all abilities in the trainer under your AC. No more abilities listed to train under your base class.

 

3) Make sure all listings, all references, everything (except perhaps class story, nothing can be done about that now) is changed to refer to you by your NEW CLASS....the AC you chose. There should not be one single remaining reference aside from story that refers to you by your original base class.

 

4) Work on and release, some time in the future, an short AC quest line that brings real meaning to the role you chose. Perhaps a bit of VO work where they directly call you by your new class name.

 

 

The choice I like the most is to keep it the way it is. No AC change, as long as they do what I posted above.

 

 

If we have to have AC change, this is the one I would feel most comfortable with.

Level 10 to 15 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - 24 hour cooldown - once you reach level 16 AC is permanent - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Why do you keep resorting back to this? You have stated this so many times now, and here is whats wrong with it.

1. Not many people knew they picked the wrong AC at level 10-15, you dont even gain any major abilities until the later levels.

2. Not many people are going to pay to have their character pushed down to level 10. So BW/EA wont make much money off it.

3. It require a whole lot of work on BWs part to put in something that actually resets your levels.

 

Edit: Also they would have said by now that ACs were there own class. At one point they were, until the cartel market hit. If they can make AC changes happen and make money off it, I bet they will. Removing your base class will most likely not happen, as your base class is your ENTIRE story, your ACs do not have a story of there own.

Edited June 21, 2013 by PeterTLJr

[PeterTLJr]

No harm done in allowing those who don't have the time to reroll to switch AC, people will just argue against anything. Stick it on a 30 day cooldown, slap a hefty CC tag on it. Profit/QQ solved.

 

This pretty much sums it up. I must add though its not even a time thing, people have put a lot of work into a class and to be told to reroll the same class just for the other AC is just.....ignorant.

[Hizoka]

No harm done in allowing those who don't have the time to reroll to switch AC, people will just argue against anything. Stick it on a 30 day cooldown, slap a hefty CC tag on it. Profit/QQ solved.

 

really??? How is that any different then saying "i do not have time to raid so give me a full set of raid gear because i want it"

 

 

Sorry but that is kinda stupid. You give these whiny little brats and inch then they will want everything. There is no legit reason to give someone a completely new class at max level.

[LordArtemis]

Why do you keep resorting back to this? You have stated this so many times now, and here is whats wrong with it.

1. Not many people knew they picked the wrong AC at level 10-15, you dont even gain any major abilities until the later levels.

2. Not many people are going to pay to have their character pushed down to level 10. So BW/EA wont make much money off it.

3. It require a whole lot of work on BWs part to put in something that actually resets your levels.

 

Edit: Also they would have said by now that ACs were there own class. At one point they were, until the cartel market hit. If they can make AC changes happen and make money off it, I bet they will. Removing your base class will most likely not happen, as your base class is your ENTIRE story, your ACs do not have a story of there own.

 

I'm not resorting to anything Peter, I'm stating my preferred option. That doesn't mean that any other option is invalid...note that in the list I post I post ALL of the proposed models, including the one you favor.

 

To the level 10 to 15 choice, I understand why some pro folks might not like it. But in my opinion, for all concerned, it is the best compromise that has the smallest impact on the game.

 

I understand the points that folks make against my preferred method and the idea that I would like Bioware to put this to bed to give AC's more meaning. It is just my desire, which in the end means next to nothing.

 

This is in no way meant to invalidate any other views here. I am just expressing mine.

 

BTW...I'm not suggesting we delete the story. I am suggesting we get rid of the base class header in the abilities pane, put all abilities that were trooper under the new AC pane and remove all references outside of story in the game to your base class post choice. This IMO would give the AC more meaning.

 

To me saying it is a permanent choice, and insinuating that they see it as a fundamental class design is not enough to give it the meaning it should have.

Edited June 21, 2013 by LordArtemis

[PeterTLJr]

I'm not resorting to anything Peter, I'm stating my preferred option. That doesn't mean that any other option is invalid...note that in the list I post I post ALL of the proposed models, including the one you favor.

 

I understand the points that folks make against my preferred method and the idea that I would like Bioware to put this to bed to give AC's more meaning. It is just my desire, which in the end means next to nothing.

 

This is in no way meant to invalidate any other views here. I am just expressing mine.

 

BTW...I'm not suggesting we delete the story. I am suggesting we get rid of the base class header in the abilities pane, put all abilities that were trooper under the new AC pane and remove all references outside of story in the game to your base class post choice. This IMO would give the AC more meaning.

 

To me saying it is a permanent choice, and insinuating that they see it as a fundamental class design is not enough to give it the meaning it should have.

 

Ok but why must it be this difficult? Why cant it just be a simple AC change? Why should BW go above and beyond for something that should have been put in the game to begin with...

There is absolutely nothing different about changing ACs in this game and switching Specs or Souls or whatever its called in other games.

 

Ive been reading just about every post, and even the people against AC changes are OK with allowing ac changes but with penalties and restrictions..why? ultimately its still an AC change, they just want to make this a bigger deal then it is.

 

If they want to put restrictions on it then GOOD, I want restrictions, but I shouldnt be penalized and pushed back levels, or have to redo the same crap I did the first time around on the same character.

 

Not only that, people actually will PAY for this, this game will make MONEY, to do more stuff with it. So I dont see it being a negative impact.

 

This feature would be completely optional, they shouldnt have to compensate for those who are happy with there character, you get the satisfaction of not having to spend money to change your ac.

Edited June 21, 2013 by PeterTLJr

[astrobearx]

my moronic post of the day, which all that i do is insult anyone who doesnt agree with my views

 

indeed, you know im surprised bioware allow you to aggressively troll people everyday because it is against the eula to constantly insult other players idea. hell i got an infraction telling someone to calm down.

 

seriously, toned down the insults and the attitude of a ENTITLED spoiled 12 year old who think he controls how the world works.

Edited June 21, 2013 by astrobearx

[LordArtemis]

Ok but why must it be this difficult? Why cant it just be a simple AC change? Why should BW go above and beyond for something that should have been put in the game to begin with...

There is absolutely nothing different about changing ACs in this game and switching Specs or Souls or whatever its called in other games.

 

Ive been reading just about every post, and even the people against AC changes are OK with allowing ac changes but with penalties and restrictions..why? ultimately its still an AC change, they just want to make this a bigger deal then it is.

 

If they want to put restrictions on it then GOOD, I want restrictions, but I shouldnt be penalized and pushed back levels, or have to redo the same crap I did the first time around on the same character.

 

Not only that, people actually will PAY for this, this game will make MONEY, to do more stuff with it. So I dont see it being a negative impact.

 

This feature would be completely optional, they shouldnt have to compensate for those who are happy with there character, you get the satisfaction of not having to spend money to change your ac.

 

Well, I see your point. The option I support is probably not the best option for the pro folks. The reduction in level is a bit draconian sure. The negative impact, IMO, is that allowing AC change makes ACs even less meaningful than they are now....I like my role in a game to have meaning.

 

That's what I like. That's not what I require. They can be completely meaningless if they wish them to be...but I would like them to make up their minds.

 

Either AC is a spec or it's a class. I don't think it's too much to ask to ask them to clarify their stance.

 

What they should have done is have the AC be the class you chose at character creation, and just have classes share stories like they do now. The class would not actually diverge in abilities until level 10.

 

It is a design flaw, IMO, that has caused the ACs to have less meaning than they should IMO.

Edited June 21, 2013 by LordArtemis

[MajikMyst]

indeed, you know im surprised bioware allow you to aggressively troll people everyday because it is against the eula to constantly insult other players idea. hell i got an infraction telling someone to calm down.

 

seriously, toned down the insults and the attitude of a ENTITLED spoiled 12 year old who think he controls how the world works.

 

You are calling her a troll when you can't even respond to what she actually said.. You have to edit what she said in your quote and respond to that.. Wow.. Talk about calling the kettle black..

 

To me that is totally a troll move.. You earned that title..

[LordArtemis]

Guys, it might be a good idea to keep in mind that post histories stand in evidence.

 

it is pretty obvious, based on checking post histories who is and is not a troll.

[MajikMyst]

I would like to see them do this.

 

1) Come out and publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that an AC IS A CLASS. Period. Leave no room for doubt.

 

Dude.. Nothing needs to be said to appease you.. It was said during the beta and again shortly after.. If you weren't around then.. That is your problem.. A lot of people know it was said.. Just live with it..

 

All that needs to be said is in the game when you choose your AC.. All you need to do is listen to that.. That is all you need to read and hear.. If you still have questions, then again that is your problem..

 

The only reason people want to devalue the AC is because they feel it is easier to get what they want if it isn't your class.. That is the entire basis of that argument...

 

Your AC is your class.. It is treated as a class and made permanent in the game.. Bioware did this.. The game says it.. Bioware did that too.. Deal with it..

Edited June 21, 2013 by MajikMyst

[LordArtemis]

They have.. It is said at least 4 times when you choose your AC in the game.. Both in voice and it text.. Try reading and listening for a change.. They don't need to say it anywhere else to appease you..

 

You just have to ask yourself.. Who made the game say that??

 

Do you really feel you are informing me of some inside information by stating they do not have to appease me? Are you under some delusion that I believe they must bend to my every whim?

 

When I choose the AC in the game it tells me it is a permanent choice. You say that translates into it being a class. I say that is your opinion.

 

Let's throw both up in the air and see which one hits the ground first...well, look at that...they both hit at the same time.

 

I guess that means no one opinion has more weight than another....doesn't it.

 

There's something wrong with your eyes BTW...they keep rolling into your head. You might want to get that checked.

 

It's like asking someone if Orange is a fruit OR a color. It is not an OR situation IMO.

 

 

DIdn't we already go round and round over this? I'm pretty sure your one of the LAST people that should be telling anyone to listen and read for a change lol. Case in point.....

 

You see Lord, that is the problem with you pro class swapping folks..

 

Option 7 - This is the one that would be my preference, though I'm reasonably open to option 1

 

No AC change allowed.

 

...ignoring the FACT that I have stated on MULTIPLE OCCASIONS the following....

 

AC is different enough to be looked at as a separate class IMO. I think Bioware has also made it clear in the past they feel the same way.

 

I am not wild about any AC change option and would prefer for it to remain as it is.

 

Case in point.

Edited June 21, 2013 by LordArtemis

[astrobearx]

You are calling her a troll when you can't even respond to what she actually said.. You have to edit what she said in your quote and respond to that.. Wow.. Talk about calling the kettle black..

 

To me that is totally a troll move.. You earned that title..

missed the point because you are in agreement with her or him.

 

my point was that (s)he CONSTANTLY insults anyone who speaks or behaves in ways that differs than her. SHE IS A TROLL. that is not a personal opinion, but fact.

 

 

but fine, i will respose to her or his moronic post.

really??? How is that any different then saying "i do not have time to raid so give me a full set of raid gear because i want it"

 

 

Sorry but that is kinda stupid. You give these whiny little brats and inch then they will want everything. There is no legit reason to give someone a completely new class at max level.

the difference is quite simply : one is paying BIS gear WITHOUT DOING ANY WORK at all and the other DID do the work to EARN what he or she want. in this case that would be AC despite what you anti may say, those who want a lvl 55 AC switch DID level LVL 55 toon. the AC are just a subset of the toon. i post 3 toons that people have leveled without having choosing a AC. there is nothing "free" especially considering that players already did the work (e.g. lvl the toon to 50~55) and want aN OPTION TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT TO.....within the proper restriction on what they can do of course.

 

 

 

her comparison is entirely flawed and was just another daily post to insult other people.

 

 

also, how am i "entitled"?

 

entitled past participle, past tense of en·ti·tle (Verb)

 

Verb

Give (someone) a legal right or a just claim to receive or do something.

Give (something, esp. a text or work of art) a particular title.

 

by this definition, no where within my posts am i acting entitled. in fact, i would say YOU have been acting entitled, by acting like you are the spokesperson of bioware. learn to properly use the word in the correct setting if you wish to proper insult me. as it is now, i honestly just think you are moron because you are using words that you arent properly understanding it meaning. i mean, english isnt even my first language, but even i know that the way most of the ppl use the word "entitled" on thif fourm isnt using it in the proper context.it is just the defender FOTM choice word.

 

 

try again.

Edited June 21, 2013 by astrobearx

[Selenial]

1621 posts and not a single word from Bioware.

[astrobearx]

they arent gonna say anything until they are ready to say something.

 

for example, look the legacy dataron thread, which people ask for and eventually getting.

[LordArtemis]

Dude.. Nothing needs to be said to appease you.. It was said during the beta and again shortly after.. If you weren't around then.. That is your problem.. A lot of people know it was said.. Just live with it..

 

All that needs to be said is in the game when you choose your AC.. All you need to do is listen to that.. That is all you need to read and hear.. If you still have questions, then again that is your problem..

 

The only reason people want to devalue the AC is because they feel it is easier to get what they want if it isn't your class.. That is the entire basis of that argument...

 

Your AC is your class.. It is treated as a class and made permanent in the game.. Bioware did this.. The game says it.. Bioware did that too.. Deal with it..

 

I see you changed your post. Again, your still assuming quite a bit. Like assuming I wasn't in Beta.

 

THEY NEVER SAID AC WAS A CLASS. Not once. The only thing they ever said, over and over is....

 

AC is a role. AC is a playstyle choice. AC is seen as a fundamentally different class design. AC should be a meaningful choice. They want AC to be a meaningful choice. Your AC defines your character for the game.

 

And there you go. That's it. Not once did they directly state AC was a class...in fact they indicated they designed AC as a role and at one time, for a few months, even intended to allow AC change before launch.

 

They INSINUATED it is a class. I agree with the view that they are distinct enough to be considered classes, which is what they have stated.

 

Too many "permanent" choices are no longer permanent. It is just wishful thinking, IMO, to cling to the hope that a statement made from another dev staff all the way back in beta or shortly thereafter is going to ring true with the current staff.

 

I contend that the vehemence against AC change, even at an early point in the game, is suspicious. I suspect that anti-AC change folks already feel the AC change is not meaningful enough and do not want it to be undervalued even further.

 

But for some reason can not admit that. Perhaps doing so would open the door to those that claim it is not a meaningful choice and therefore one should be allowed to change it.

 

I just think any REASONABLE person, for or against, should be willing to discuss and consider alternatives and options.

[MajikMyst]

Do you really feel you are informing me of some inside information by stating they do not have to appease me? Are you under some delusion that I believe they must bend to my every whim?.

 

Dude.. The fact of the matter is that I, like many others here, were here during the beta.. I joined the Beta in July before launch.. An entire 6 months before launch..

 

This discussion came up in the beta.. I say Bioware's response to it.. Now, I am sorry you did not.. I wish you had because you might be a little more enlightened about this topic if you were..

 

Ever since launch, Bioware has maintained a stance of doing nothing to piss off it's customers.. It happens when you lose over a million people shortly after launch.. The stance however is giving soft no's for almost everything.. The typical, 'We have no plans currently, but may change our mind.' or 'We have been talking about it, but no firm plans as of yet as to when.' Something along those lines.. Those are soft No's..

 

Bioware made dramatic changes to the game, none of which you saw because you weren't in the beta at that time.. This happened in about August before launch.. They made dramatic changes to avoid allowing AC swapping.. Now would they have done that if they wanted us to be able to AC swap..

 

Originally the buttons were right above the other.. One was called one AC and of course the other was the other.. They were about an inch or two apart on your screen.. Other than a brief description of the different AC's which is still in the game.. That was all the information you had.. At that time it didn't say your choice was permanent.. You had no ability to look at the talent trees before choosing.. You really had nothing..

 

Which brought up the argument that people were making a mistake.. They would accidently select the wrong AC.. They also said that we should be able to look at the talent trees..

 

Hence what we have now.. Each button is in it's own window.. Separated by a good distance.. About 6" on my monitor.. (Monitor size obviously varies.) They also added the ability to see the talent trees, and to settle argument about AC swapping the warnings in both voice over and text were added.. Your choice was permanent and would forever dominate your destiny..

 

What we have now was in place and working by Mid September.. As far as the beta was concerned the debate ended.. We had got our answer..

 

And so has everyone in the game.. The game still issues those same warnings.. There is nothing to debate here. Bioware has responded.. Definitively.. All you have to do is play the game..

Edited June 21, 2013 by MajikMyst

[MajikMyst]

THEY NEVER SAID AC WAS A CLASS. Not once. The only thing they ever said, over and over is....

 

Actually they did.. Sorry you missed it.. I don't have the power to resurrect the old forums or the beta forums.. But it was in fact said a number of times.. Both Jorge and Stephen Reid said it..

 

You are arguing with history.. Just because you weren't here or didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen and someone else didn't see it..

 

I would think that would be common sense..