ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Hizoka]

No.

 

In WoW, the three Warlock spec's are entirely different play styles in one class. In SWTOR, the AC's are nothing more than arbitrary dividers. Within Commando, Combat Medic, Gunnery and Assault Specialist are 3 different play styles within one division, while the other division has Tactics, Shield Specialist and Assault Specialist with 3 different play styles.

 

Each spec is a different play style in every single AC. Under your reasoning, each spec should be a different class.

 

ok... there is for warrior - Arms protection and fury... 3 specs 1 class... a powertech in SWTOR is advanced prototype, pyro, and shield tech... how are those not the same thing??

 

the answer is they are the same thing you just want them to be different to justify getting a free new class for no reason.

[Grayseven]

ok... there is for warrior - Arms protection and fury... 3 specs 1 class... a powertech in SWTOR is advanced prototype, pyro, and shield tech... how are those not the same thing??

 

the answer is they are the same thing you just want them to be different to justify getting a free new class for no reason.

 

They are 3 specs, each with a different play style. Again, by your reasoning, each spec should be a class and you shouldn't be allowed to bounce between spec's because they are different from one another. But we can bounce between spec's. All people want is the ability to add 3 (well, 2 since one is shared) spec's from the other division within their class because the differences between AC's in SWTOR are very, very minor...about the same as the difference between spec's within one AC.

 

We're there large differences between AC's I would agree that they are different classes...but there aren't. The actual setup of Classes and AC's looks more like laziness on the Developers part by giving the illusion of 16 classes while really only having 4 classes each consisting of 5 specs. Your entire argument revolves around AC's being individual classes but they simply aren't different enough to be called a class in their own right. They are nothing more than artificial divisions between sets of specs.

 

And I don't want a "free" anything. I want the diversity of trying out the other specs without grinding out a 14th character to do so. Leveling has lost its allure...i.e. it just isn't fun any more. I'd rather be able to just respec to the other two specs on my already established main character.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Grayseven

[Ratajack]

Please provide us with proof. As another poster has already provided evidence that they haven't ever said this. They consider ACs to be distinctly different -- but they never said class.

 

Although, in the end, it doesn't matter what you think, or what I think. If BW, as stated, is discussing implementing this -- they will make the choice and either put it in, or leave it out.

 

I'd just love a dev response that is black and white. *Yes* we have it on our list of to-implement. No, we don't plan on it. Either would be nice.

 

So far we've gotten -- "It will likely happen eventually" -- which is purposely vague.

 

Actually, unless I am mistaken, the term they used was "fundamentally different class designs". That sounds to me like they definitely used the term "different class". The actual quote has been posted countless times in this thread.

 

My question is how is something that is a "fundamentally different class design" be the same class? How can two AC's that are "fundamentally different class designs" not be different classes? That is was "fundamentally different class design" means, is it not?

[Hizoka]

They are 3 specs, each with a different play style. Again, by your reasoning, each spec should be a class and you shouldn't be allowed to bounce between spec's because they are different from one another. But we can bounce between spec's. All people want is the ability to add 3 (well, 2 since one is shared) spec's from the other division within their class because the differences between AC's in SWTOR are very, very minor...about the same as the difference between spec's within one AC.

 

We're there large differences between AC's I would agree that they are different classes...but there aren't. The actual setup of Classes and AC's looks more like laziness on the Developers part by giving the illusion of 16 classes while really only having 4 classes each consisting of 5 specs. Your entire argument revolves around AC's being individual classes but they simply aren't different enough to be called a class in their own right. They are nothing more than artificial divisions between sets of specs.

 

And I don't want a "free" anything. I want the diversity of trying out the other specs without grinding out a 14th character to do so. Leveling has lost its allure...i.e. it just isn't fun any more. I'd rather be able to just respec to the other two specs on my already established main character.

 

you are confusing a different spec with a different class. There is no spec of a powertech that is ranged DPS... just like there is no spec of a merc that is melee. That is a base play style difference, the same difference in a mage and warrior in wow.

 

You are asking for a completely leveled new class... that is what ACs are they are different classes. That is wanting something for nothing. If you want a new class then level it up, stop acting like an immature child and begging to be handed something.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Hizoka

[Ratajack]

I figured I would make an attempt to repost this....but it might be futile in a sea of trolls. We might have to wait until later to continue the discussion peacefully.

 

 

Option 1 - This is the one I am currently willing to begrudgingly support

Level 10 to 15 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - 24 hour cooldown - once you reach level 16 AC is permanent - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 2

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 3

 

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - no reduction in level - one month cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 4

 

Level 10 to 30 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 5

Level 10 to 46 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will up to 46 - no reduction in level - no cooldown - once you reach level 47 AC is permanent - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 6

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 7 - This is the one that would be my preference, though I'm reasonably open to option 1

 

No AC change allowed.

 

I felt it was only fair to add in the "do not allow AC changes ever" if I am going to include the "allow AC change with no restrictions".

 

If I have missed anyone else's proposal or wish please let me know so I can correct or add it. I would also like to list the players that support the particular options listed under the option if that's ok with you guys.

 

That way we can clearly see who supports what. It's up to all of you if you want me to add you that way.

 

I definitely prefer option 7, although I would be less objecting of options 1 and 2 than any of the other options.

[Grayseven]

If they were "fundamentally different class designs" I would agree. But they aren't. The range at which one attacks isn't a "fundamental difference". The gear one uses maybe...except that the gear between AC's is pretty much the same...dependent of course whether you are dps, tanking or healing.

 

Roles aren't a fundamental difference, otherwise there would be AC's for DPS, Healing and Tanking.

 

Of course, the word "fundamental" can be confusing to some. "Fundamentally different class designs" could be reworded to mean "basically different class designs". In other words they are only different in very minor aspects...which the AC system is...to my eyes anyway.

 

Combat Medic within Commando is a "fundamentally different class design" from Gunnery, and yet they are in the same AC. So what, outside of a small range difference (that only applies for some abilities) is so different between Commando and Vanguard that isn't also as different between spec's within the same AC?

 

It's my assertion that AC's are nothing more than artificial and arbitrary divisions between sets of specs and not individual classes of their own and nothing I've seen so far has changed that view. I simply don't see enough difference between AC's to justify classifying them as individual classes.

[Ratajack]

I wanted to talk about something. I think Bioware actually caused this problem. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION.

 

Ok. I am guessing, just a guess mind you, that the SWG team had some effect on how this worked. Here is why I think that is the case.

 

This can be looked at as a hybrid of both the WoW (or any game that uses a similar system) and the SWG leveling system.

 

In SWG you would choose to level up a particular skill (there were no character levels) by using certain weapons (or no weapon) and that skill would slowly build until it unlocked the next stage.

 

Lets take Marksman for example. You could choose just one set of skills, and then choose another base, like artisan or entertainer, or you could continue to fill all the other skills until you reached Master Marksman....at which point you have a choice of certain specific roles or classes. In order to unlock Commando as a choice you had to have one branch of unarmed (Brawler) filled and all four Marksman branches filled.

 

At that point you could choose Commando and level it.

 

In WoW you are forced to choose a spec. There is no advanced class. You level a class, then choose a spec. You can dual spec, you can respec, but you are forced to choose one spec. You have a class, you have a spec. Period.

 

In this game it is a prerequisite to choose and level Trooper to 10 in order to unlock either Commando or Vanguard. You can not, under any circumstances, choose or play as a Commando or Vanguard unless you choose and level Trooper first.

 

So you are in essence, arguably changing your class from a Trooper to a Commando or Vanguard.

 

Now, in SWG you would become your new class...it is how you would be listed, how folks would see you...it was your class. You were not listed as a Marksman or Brawler (though you could choose that title if you wished). You were a Commando.

 

In this game your still a Trooper. And your a Commando. Your both. And neither. It is confusing. People still see you as a Trooper....your still listed on your login screen as a Trooper....you still use Trooper skills, you still get called a Trooper in your storyline, you still use Trooper gear...but your not a Trooper. Confusing. Not as meaningful as it should be IMO.

 

Not to mention the fact that it means you are essentially two classes and a spec. Silly IMO.

 

Here is where the mistake, IMO, becomes apparent. If you were listed as a Commando, called a Commando, if your gear said Commando...then you would feel like the choice meant something. Right now it seems it's just a gate to get some neat specials and play a role...

 

It's not as meaningful as it should be.

IMO if they want the choice to have REAL meaning they should force the choice at 10 and you should become that class...you should not longer be referred to in any way as your prior class. You TRANSFORM into the new class.

 

No more Trooper abilities. No more reference to Trooper. You cannot wear Trooper gear any longer. You are NOT a trooper any more.

The way it is now it is no surprise that some players find the choice less meaningful. It is due to the way it was designed.

 

Trooper/Commando/Gunnery. Silly.

 

Hence our problem.

 

You are already listed as a commando. The login screen does say "Trooper chapter 1" for example, yet when you look at your character, or guild roster, do a /who or even just mouse over another character, you will see the class "commando" not "trooper-commando" or even trooper (unless that character has not yet chosen an AC)

 

My personal explanation for this is that when you choose your base class, you are choosing your STORY LINE and not your actual class, which you can choose at level 10. When you log in and it says "trooper-chapter 1", the login screen is telling which story line that character is playing and where in the story line they are. When you check your character in game, or look at your guild roster, it lists the actual class for your character.

 

One other thing, notice the abbreviation for advanced class is AC, the same as it would be if they used the term ACTUAL CLASS? of course, that might be just coincidence.

[Hizoka]

If they were "fundamentally different class designs" I would agree. But they aren't. The range at which one attacks isn't a "fundamental difference". The gear one uses maybe...except that the gear between AC's is pretty much the same...dependent of course whether you are dps, tanking or healing.

 

Roles aren't a fundamental difference, otherwise there would be AC's for DPS, Healing and Tanking.

 

Of course, the word "fundamental" can be confusing to some. "Fundamentally different class designs" could be reworded to mean "basically different class designs". In other words they are only different in very minor aspects...which the AC system is...to my eyes anyway.

 

Combat Medic within Commando is a "fundamentally different class design" from Gunnery, and yet they are in the same AC. So what, outside of a small range difference (that only applies for some abilities) is so different between Commando and Vanguard that isn't also as different between spec's within the same AC?

 

It's my assertion that AC's are nothing more than artificial and arbitrary divisions between sets of specs and not individual classes of their own and nothing I've seen so far has changed that view. I simply don't see enough difference between AC's to justify classifying them as individual classes.

 

the devs are quoted as saying they are "fundamentally different class designs"... but i guess you are so entitled you say that it is not true... what ever... you just want something you have not earned

 

Sorry but having a melee class and a ranged class are 2 COMPLETELY different class designs... even someone of your intelligence should realize that but i guess i gave you too much credit.

[LordArtemis]

Again, I really think its bad design here that caused the problem in the first place. In the case of Trooper for instance, your a Trooper, your a Commando.....your both.

 

And then you choose a spec...ridiculous.

 

You choose Commando, but you still use Trooper abilities, wear Trooper gear, get called a Trooper, get listed as a Trooper, see Trooper in the login screen.

 

It doesn't make any sense because, IMO, the ACs are unique enough to consider them classes. So why trivialize them by basically ignoring the fact that you chose that role...it's almost like there is shame in the choice.

 

You chose Commando. Your class should be Commando. Not Trooper. No Trooper gear, specials...nothing. When you choose Commando you should BECOME a Commando, period.

 

Just my slant, but when you trivialize a choice and then try to pass it off as important it almost becomes comical.

 

They want to fix the problem of people not feeling like the choice of AC is meaningful? MAKE ME A COMMANDO.

 

You can bet that if I get Commando only gear, weapons, specials that I use (no trooper specials) and I get called a commando everywhere I go I will not feel like it's a spec.

 

Just my slant.

[LordArtemis]

You are already listed as a commando. The login screen does say "Trooper chapter 1" for example, yet when you look at your character, or guild roster, do a /who or even just mouse over another character, you will see the class "commando" not "trooper-commando" or even trooper (unless that character has not yet chosen an AC)

 

My personal explanation for this is that when you choose your base class, you are choosing your STORY LINE and not your actual class, which you can choose at level 10. When you log in and it says "trooper-chapter 1", the login screen is telling which story line that character is playing and where in the story line they are. When you check your character in game, or look at your guild roster, it lists the actual class for your character.

 

One other thing, notice the abbreviation for advanced class is AC, the same as it would be if they used the term ACTUAL CLASS? of course, that might be just coincidence.

 

Sure, but like I said, you still use Trooper gear, use Trooper specials, get called a trooper in your storyline, etc. If I am a Commando, why not get treated like one?

 

My only point was that when you trivialize a class choice by design you cause a problem. Telling people it's permanent isnt enough if you want to avoid people looking at as a spec instead of an actual class.

 

It has to feel like a class. The way the game is designed it just doesn't push that feeling as much as it should IMO, hence the reason why some folks find it trivial.

 

Again, just trying to look at it objectively....you don't have folks asking for the right to change from a Jedi to a Trooper with a class change. I think there is a reason for that. The choice has meaning.

 

This choice not so much. And that could be rectified.

 

So here is what I think they could do to put this to bed, and I would be happy if they did.

 

1) Come out and publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that an AC IS A CLASS. Period. Leave no room for doubt.

 

2) Remove all base class abilities when you choose your AC, the ability to wear base class armor, etc. Provide AC abilities and armor from that point forward. The only exception would be adaptive gear.

 

To be clear, that means your base class goes poof...not more training in the base class, all base class abilities are gone. Now the only training you receive is in the advanced class you chose.

 

3) Make sure all listings, all references, everything (except perhaps class story, nothing can be done about that now) is changed to refer to you by your NEW CLASS....the AC you chose.

 

4) Work on and release, some time in the future, an short AC quest line that brings real meaning to the role you chose. Perhaps a bit of VO work where they directly call you by your new class name.

 

IMO that would do the trick.

Edited June 20, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Ratajack]

Thank you.

 

Would you like me to add your name next to the ones you wish to promote? I wanted to do that for folks so that we can clearly see who supports what and every participant in this thread is heard.

 

Also...do you think I left any options out? I tried to find all the ones people had mentioned.

 

That would be fine with me, as long as I'm listed as definitely in favor of option seven, but listed something along the lines of "willing to compromise" for the other options. I would prefer not to be confused as being in favor of allowing AC changes, even with restrictions.

[LordArtemis]

That would be fine with me, as long as I'm listed as definitely in favor of option seven, but listed something along the lines of "willing to compromise" for the other options. I would prefer not to be confused as being in favor of allowing AC changes, even with restrictions.

 

What I think I will do, for now, if enough people agree is this.

 

Preferred option in white

Regrettable choice if you had to make it in yellow

 

For now I will just post the white names, then later add the yellows as people weight in on options they may accept.

[Ratajack]

Sure, but like I said, you still use Trooper gear, use Trooper specials, get called a trooper in your storyline, etc. If I am a Commando, why not get treated like one?

 

My only point was that when you trivialize a class choice by design you cause a problem. Telling people it's permanent isnt enough if you want to avoid people looking at as a spec instead of an actual class.

 

It has to feel like a class. The way the game is designed it just doesn't push that feeling as much as it should IMO, hence the reason why some folks find it trivial.

 

Again, just trying to look at it objectively....you don't have folks asking for the right to change from a Jedi to a Trooper with a class change. I think there is a reason for that. The choice has meaning.

 

This choice not so much. And that could be rectified.

 

It would have added seriously to the development costs to have to do what would amount to essentially double the work to have everything refer to you by your AC. They would have had to voice portions of all the class stories twice (once for each of the AC's in order to address characters by AC), create different armors for each of the different AC's, even if just a recolor, etc.

 

It was cheaper development cost wise to essentially cut a portion of the necessary budget in half.

[Ratajack]

Sure, but like I said, you still use Trooper gear, use Trooper specials, get called a trooper in your storyline, etc. If I am a Commando, why not get treated like one?

 

My only point was that when you trivialize a class choice by design you cause a problem. Telling people it's permanent isnt enough if you want to avoid people looking at as a spec instead of an actual class.

 

It has to feel like a class. The way the game is designed it just doesn't push that feeling as much as it should IMO, hence the reason why some folks find it trivial.

 

Again, just trying to look at it objectively....you don't have folks asking for the right to change from a Jedi to a Trooper with a class change. I think there is a reason for that. The choice has meaning.

 

This choice not so much. And that could be rectified.

 

So here is what I think they could do to put this to bed, and I would be happy if they did.

 

1) Come out and publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that an AC IS A CLASS. Period. Leave no room for doubt.

 

2) Remove all base class abilities when you choose your AC, the ability to wear base class armor, etc. Provide AC abilities and armor from that point forward. The only exception would be adaptive gear.

 

To be clear, that means your base class goes poof...not more training in the base class, all base class abilities are gone. Now the only training you receive is in the advanced class you chose.

 

3) Make sure all listings, all references, everything (except perhaps class story, nothing can be done about that now) is changed to refer to you by your NEW CLASS....the AC you chose.

 

4) Work on and release, some time in the future, an short AC quest line that brings real meaning to the role you chose. Perhaps a bit of VO work where they directly call you by your new class name.

 

IMO that would do the trick.

 

What would happen to all the "generic" base class abilities like revive, revive companion, the CC breaker, the buff, the self heal/recharge ability, etc?

[Ratajack]

the way guild wars 2 does it is irrelevant. guild wars 2 is not TOR. they have a different dynamic. address TOR and specifically TOR when making your argument.

 

You keep throwing out "story line" as what defines a class. I give you an example of why story does not define class, and since it shoots a hole in your whole justification for allowing class changes, you want to dismiss it?

 

You want to use story as justification for allowing class changes within a story line, but use other MMO's not allowing class changes as justification for not allowing complete class changes out of story line, ie: "you can change from vanguard to commando because they share the same story line, but since juggernaut and vanguard do not share the same story, you can't change between those two". Yet when someone uses an example of two classes sharing the exact same story line which would invalidate your argument, you want to make story line TOR specific?

[LordArtemis]

It would have added seriously to the development costs to have to do what would amount to essentially double the work to have everything refer to you by your AC. They would have had to voice portions of all the class stories twice (once for each of the AC's in order to address characters by AC), create different armors for each of the different AC's, even if just a recolor, etc.

 

It was cheaper development cost wise to essentially cut a portion of the necessary budget in half.

 

I do understand that. But you cut corners sometimes you cause more problems than you solve.

 

And in this case the shortcut to save cash, if one could contend that, trivializes the choice to some extent.

 

...perhaps. AgaIn, just trying to wrap my head around why there are some folks that see ACs as specs but almost NOONE that sees a Jedi or Trooper as a spec.

 

There has to be a reason. I think it's a lack of investment. You need to feel invested, connected, for a choice to have meaning IMO.

[LordArtemis]

What would happen to all the "generic" base class abilities like revive, revive companion, the CC breaker, the buff, the self heal/recharge ability, etc?

 

They would have AC replacements.

 

You could have specials that work the same way as the base class ones do...in fact, to save money you can just roll them in all under the AC.

 

In a perfect world they would have new names and animations specific to your AC choice, but just moving them under the AC heading would work. Just get rid of the reference and ability list for your base class.

[Ratajack]

I do understand that. But you cut corners sometimes you cause more problems than you solve.

 

And in this case the shortcut to save cash, if one could contend that, trivializes the choice to some extent.

 

...perhaps. AgaIn, just trying to wrap my head around why there are some folks that see ACs as specs but almost NOONE that sees a Jedi or Trooper as a spec.

 

There has to be a reason. I think it's a lack of investment. You need to feel invested, connected, for a choice to have meaning IMO.

 

I think the reason is MUCH MORE BASIC that. Please note that this is my opinion only.

 

If you look at the Anti-AC change side, most of the people against AC changes recognize that the different AC's are different classes.

 

If you look at the Pro-AC changes side, most of the people in favor of allowing AC changes claim they are just specs.

 

I think the reason for this is that deep down, even those in favor of allowing AC changes know that the AC's are different classes, but by claiming AC's are not actual classes, they can claim this is not a "let me change my class" thread.

[Jeweledleah]

You keep throwing out "story line" as what defines a class. I give you an example of why story does not define class, and since it shoots a hole in your whole justification for allowing class changes, you want to dismiss it?

 

You want to use story as justification for allowing class changes within a story line, but use other MMO's not allowing class changes as justification for not allowing complete class changes out of story line, ie: "you can change from vanguard to commando because they share the same story line, but since juggernaut and vanguard do not share the same story, you can't change between those two". Yet when someone uses an example of two classes sharing the exact same story line which would invalidate your argument, you want to make story line TOR specific?

 

I dismiss it because its a different dynamic and a different game.

 

but fine, you want to compare it to guild wars 2, LETS compare it to guild wars 2.

 

in guild wars 2 - the story is tied to your race as well as several other origins selections you make at the character creation, along with your class.

at character creation - this is important

since you insist on comparing 2 different games - SWTOR now allows for a race change. why? because it has no effect on story flags. but this wouldn't work in guild wars 2, because too many flags would have to change. they would be more likely to implement a class change then a race change because of it.

 

moreover - none of the classes in guild wars share abilities. at all. each class has their own, distinct set of abilities, so even if you use similar weapons, they won't work the same way. this is distinct design of how GW2 classes work.

what makes star wars the old republic not like guild wars 2 is that

 

1 you do not select your advanced class at character creation

2. the game doesn't acknowledge your advanced class, aside from original description you get

3. you share abilities, you train at the same trainers.

4, you share tier gear sets (if there's anything that kinda shows definiteness of what's class and what's specialization - that would be tier gear, since you cannot actually wear say consular gear on a trooper, despite generally being able to wear light armor) - there is no commando tier, there's trooper tier

 

tldr. you insist on comparing apples to oranges under justification that they are both fruits and therefore, they must be the same, subject to the same judgement and reasoning. but they are not.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[Fluhi]

Take a Wizard and Necromancer in other games both are mages, both use same resource called mana, both wear light armor, both use int as main stat, both have different spec in either of thier advanced class of mage, each share basic skill and buffs that all mages have just with slight adjustments modified when they choose to be a Wizard or Necromancer. Yet both are classes

 

Take the 2 troopers, both use same armor, both use same resource, both use same main stat, both have different specs of their advanced class of trooper, each share basic skills and buffs that all troopers would have with slight adjustments modified to fit thier advanced class.

 

When you choose to be a commando you don't stop being a trooper just like a Wizard doesn't stop being a Mage. The only difference is instead of choosing wizard or necro at lvl 1 you choose at lvl 10 and your a mage from 1-10 which is nothing more then a level shift of when you select your class.

 

People like bringing up the different specs of WoW classes, do each of those different specs have 3 talent trees each so that each WoW class has 3 advanced classes each with their own set of 3 talent trees as you guys like to compare this to them.? I would like to know as i never was interested in WoW so i don't know if this never was or is the case.

[LordArtemis]

I think the reason is MUCH MORE BASIC that. Please note that this is my opinion only.

 

If you look at the Anti-AC change side, most of the people against AC changes recognize that the different AC's are different classes.

 

If you look at the Pro-AC changes side, most of the people in favor of allowing AC changes claim they are just specs.

 

I think the reason for this is that deep down, even those in favor of allowing AC changes know that the AC's are different classes, but by claiming AC's are not actual classes, they can claim this is not a "let me change my class" thread.

 

Well, I will not argue against that contention because it certainly sounds logical...but it just doesn't feel right to me.

 

After all, I don't really feel invested in my AC and I am pretty strongly in the Anti-change column...mostly because I am worried about how the community will react and whether or not it will be abused.

 

Actually, that's not right. What worries me the most I guess is that a trivial choice that I want to have some meaning will have even less. I guess that's probably the biggest reason if I'm being completely honest.

 

And...now you have me thinking of something else along the lines of what you said...what if most of the Anti change folks feel the same way...the choice is really trivial enough and they don't want it to be even more meaningless?

 

Hmm.

 

The more I think about it the more convinced I get that this is a design issue.

Edited June 20, 2013 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

...... there is no commando tier, there's trooper tier

 

If you don't mind me grabbing a snippet, this point here is what I'm getting at. A Commando uses Trooper gear, but a Jedi can not use Trooper gear. You are still a Trooper though you chose Commando.

 

Too many things in the game remind you of the class you were supposed to leave behind.

[LordArtemis]

Take a Wizard and Necromancer in other games both are mages, both use same resource called mana, both wear light armor, both use int as main stat, both have different spec in either of thier advanced class of mage, each share basic skill and buffs that all mages have just with slight adjustments modified when they choose to be a Wizard or Necromancer. Yet both are classes

 

Take the 2 troopers, both use same armor, both use same resource, both use same main stat, both have different specs of their advanced class of trooper, each share basic skills and buffs that all troopers would have with slight adjustments modified to fit thier advanced class.

 

When you choose to be a commando you don't stop being a trooper just like a Wizard doesn't stop being a Mage. The only difference is instead of choosing wizard or necro at lvl 1 you choose at lvl 10 and your a mage from 1-10 which is nothing more then a level shift of when you select your class.

 

People like bringing up the different specs of WoW classes, do each of those different specs have 3 talent trees each so that each WoW class has 3 advanced classes each with their own set of 3 talent trees as you guys like to compare this to them.? I would like to know as i never was interested in WoW so i don't know if this never was or is the case.

 

What you have essentially described is the problem. AC's are stated, insinuated and treated like separate classes but act like specs. The evidence if in what you just said. So essentially the AC is a base spec with three refined specs...at least how they are designed.

 

And that is just sad when you pile on the fact that you can't leave the base class behind. If AC is a class you should become that AC IMO.

[Fluhi]

What you have essentially described is the problem. AC's are stated, insinuated and treated like separate classes but act like specs. The evidence if in what you just said. So essentially the AC is a base spec with three refined specs...at least how they are designed.

 

And that is just sad when you pile on the fact that you can't leave the base class behind. If AC is a class you should become that AC IMO.

 

WHAT????? AC as i described is exactly like majority of games and are classes. Wizard and Necro are not specs in most games they are classes. This means that a Commando or Vanguard are different classes. This is the typical archtype stucture most classes are made from in all games just some don't force you to level as the archtype before you pick your final class.

[Ratajack]

Well, I will not argue against that contention because it certainly sounds logical...but it just doesn't feel right to me.

 

After all, I don't really feel invested in my AC and I am pretty strongly in the Anti-change column...mostly because I am worried about how the community will react and whether or not it will be abused.

 

Actually, that's not right. What worries me the most I guess is that a trivial choice that I want to have some meaning will have even less. I guess that's probably the biggest reason if I'm being completely honest.

 

And...now you have me thinking of something else along the lines of what you said...what if most of the Anti change folks feel the same way...the choice is really trivial enough and they don't want it to be even more meaningless?

 

Hmm.

 

The more I think about it the more convinced I get that this is a design issue.

 

They could definitely have made it clearer and more concise at character creation.

 

For example, at character creation, instead of "choose a base class", they could have phrased it "choose a storyy line, you will be able choose your class at level 10. . If a player chose the trooper story line, the next screen could state that "this story line will allow a player to select either the vanguard or commando class at level 10." and then give descriptions of both classes. This would allow them to keep the current story line shared by two classes, but make it clear that your AC is your class.

 

The same info could be reflected on the game site, in an effort to reduce confusion.

 

Of course, this same information regarding AC being your class could be re-iterated at the time of AC selection in addition to all the notifications and warnings that AC choice is permanent.