ETA on Advanced Class change?

[PeterTLJr]

At the end of the day, this argument comes down to time played vs subscription time (or maybe amount achieved).

 

Much of that is negated by the F2P model. You can level a toon (or many toons) as intended without ever really feeling the F2P restrictions. Believe me I know.

 

Oh snap, EK, how do you know?

 

MY first 4 toons were as follows: Merc, Operative, Warrior, Sorc. My next four were Sentinel, Shadow, Van, Slinger.

 

Up to this point (in my game life) everyone had these same options and choices. They could have inverted their ACs, but we were sub-based with 8 toons per server. I went this way, it made the most sense to me given the options I had.

 

Now, we are F2P and your toon slots are dependent upon how much $$/cr you put in the game.

 

It is no secret, I have little sympathy for those that want to AC respec. I did want to AC respec back in the day, but rather I leveled that AC to completion.

 

Leveling is NOT a challenge, nor is it time consuming. You can be level 50 prior to reaching 40 hours of game time. Is that so much to ask? I think not. 40 hours? No, sorry. Less than 40 hours and you want to respec? Sorry - not on my watch. Re-roll.

 

Leveling is not a challenge, atleast not to me, but thats not my issue, and I assume others are on the same boat. We have stuff on a character we dont want to leave behind and redo everything just for the other AC when in most other games, its an ingame change.

[ekwalizer]

Leveling is not a challenge, atleast not to me, but thats not my issue, and I assume others are on the same boat. We have stuff on a character we dont want to leave behind and redo everything just for the other AC when in most other games, its an ingame change.

 

So. Financially incentivize BW/EA to allow you to AC swap.

 

Keep in in mind that you are negating the opportunity for them to make money off of your ALTs.

[ekwalizer]

Leveling is not a challenge' date=' atleast not to me, but thats not my issue, and I assume others are on the same boat. [/quote'] You are 100% correct Neither leveling nor the time required are a true issue for anyone.

 

We have stuff on a character we dont want to leave behind and redo everything just for the other AC when in most other games' date=' its an ingame change.[/quote']

 

List "most other games" that allow you to change your CLASS.

[PeterTLJr]

So. Financially incentivize BW/EA to allow you to AC swap.

 

Keep in in mind that you are negating the opportunity for them to make money off of your ALTs.

 

But they are making money off me changing AC. If they are thinking about money, I'd assume (my opinion) they'd make more off people changing ACs then people spending money on alts of the same class just the other AC.

[ekwalizer]

But they are making money off me changing AC. If they are thinking about money, I'd assume (my opinion) they'd make more off people changing ACs then people spending money on alts of the same class just the other AC.

 

You'd be wrong in your assumption. You're "main" can only collect *so* many armor collections from the CM. Your "main" only required "so many" outfits from the CM.

 

Your main is one of 12 possible standard subscription toons.

 

See where this goes?

[PeterTLJr]

You are 100% correct Neither leveling nor the time required are a true issue for anyone.

 

 

 

List "most other games" that allow you to change your CLASS.

 

None. But I can go through other games that have the similar situation as this game biggest one being Rift. If you start out as a Warrior in rift, you then pick your Soul (which is similar to AC). And your able to switch between all the souls in the Warrior because your still the warrior. World of Warcraft is similar to how SWTOR is. You start out a paladin, at level 10 you pick what you want to be as that paladin, they just dont have as many skill trees as swtor does for each class.

 

Each game has their own unique way of going further into each class. In the majority of games your able to switch around within your base class. As long as its not CLASS switching, and switching ACs is not class switching.

Edited August 3, 2013 by PeterTLJr

[PeterTLJr]

You'd be wrong in your assumption. You're "main" can only collect *so* many armor collections from the CM. Your "main" only required "so many" outfits from the CM.

 

Your main is one of 12 possible standard subscription toons.

 

See where this goes?

 

I do not see where this is going.

[ekwalizer]

None. But I can go through other games that have the similar situation as this game biggest one being Rift. If you start out as a Warrior in rift, you then pick your Soul (which is similar to AC). And your able to switch between all the souls in the Warrior because your still the warrior. World of Warcraft is similar to how SWTOR is. You start out a paladin, at level 10 you pick what you want to be as that paladin, they just dont have as many skill trees as swtor does for each class.

 

Uhm no. Paladin is a Paladin. BH is not a Merc and BH is not a PT. Mercenary is not Powertech.

 

A Paly has 3 trees to choose from. Holy smokes a Powertech has 3 trees to choose from.

Edited August 3, 2013 by ekwalizer

[PeterTLJr]

Uhm no. Paladin is a Paladin. Mercenary is not Powertech.

 

A Paly has 3 trees to choose from. Holy smokes a Powertech has 3 trees to choose from.

 

As a paladin, when you hit 10, you pick where you want to go, same as bounty hunter, and then you collect your unique abilities from going that route, then you gain the base class abilities. All paladins will have the base paladin spells, all bounty hunters will have the base bounty hunter spells, holy paladins will not have retribution spells, powertechs do not have mercenary spells.

 

Same concept.

Edited August 3, 2013 by PeterTLJr

[ekwalizer]

As a paladin, when you hit 10, you pick where you want to go, same as bounty hunter, and then you collect your unique abilities from going that route, then you gain the base class abilities. All paladins will have the base paladin spells, all bounty hunters will have the base bounty hunter spells, holy paladins will not have retribution spells, powertechs do not have mercenary spells.

 

I'm sorry, no. Paladin is a CLASS.

Mercenary is a CLASS

Powertech is a CLASS.

 

Merc and PT share a STORY, some skills and Companions.

 

That is where the similarities end.

[PeterTLJr]

I'm sorry, no. Paladin is a CLASS.

Mercenary is a CLASS

Powertech is a CLASS.

 

Merc and PT share a STORY, some skills and Companions.

 

That is where the similarities end.

 

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes

For those who are confused about classes.

Bounty hunter is your class, Powertech/Mercenary is your advance class (Spec, Soul, ect).

 

http://www.riftgame.com/en/characters/

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/class/

As you can see, each game has its BASE CLASS. Then theres the detailed class, whatever fancy name they want to give it.

Base class --> Detailed Class = Your character

^do not change ^ what we want to change

Edited August 3, 2013 by PeterTLJr

[ekwalizer]

But back OT:

 

The argument that they share primary stats is way off base.

 

DPS:

Primary Stat: STR, AIM, CUN, WILL

Next: PWR

Next: CRIT

Next SUR

 

Heal:

Primary Stat: STR, AIM, CUN, WILL

Next: PWR

Next: CRIT

Next SUR

 

Tank:

Primary Stat: ENDURANCE (Note how that is not STR, AIM, CUN, WILL)

((In no particular order to keep from having a tank stat fight))

Defense (Note how that is not PWR)

Shield (Note how that is not CRIT)

Absorb (Note how that is not SUR).

 

 

So, by logic given in this thread. DPS/Heal should be interchangeable based on stat allocation, and they are.

[ekwalizer]

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes

For those who are confused about classes.

Bounty hunter is your class, Powertech/Mercenary is your advance class (Spec, Soul, ect).

 

http://www.riftgame.com/en/characters/

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/class/

As you can see, each game has its BASE CLASS. Then theres the detailed class, whatever fancy name they want to give it.

Base class --> Detailed Class = Your character

^do not change ^ what we want to change

Originally Posted by Daniel Erickson

 

"The advanced class system exists because we’re already making the game story-wise bigger than every other game we’ve done put together. We pretty topped out at eight. It’s already huge and ridiculous, but for an MMOG, we wanted more classes than that for a variety of gameplay. Each of the advanced classes is basically a full class that we would have done."

 

 

Originally Posted by Daniel Erickson

"We had alot of internal debate whether to release the advanced classes, and people need to understand they are "works in progress". We have a very complicated class system. The advanced classes are TOTAL class systems by themselves. You can't think of other games where you have little offshoots.

Obviously, the ideal is that people don't ever need to respec their Advanced Class. There are additional measures we are putting in place to improve the communication about that choice to the player before it happens. Ideally, we would also allow you to 'test drive' the AC , but that's fairly expensive and unlikely to happen. It's more likely that we stick with a short period (a few levels) during which you can change your AC class for a credit cost before it locks in. We might attach other limiters than just credits (e.g completely disable the option past level 20 instead of a very high cost of credits.). That's what testing will determine."

 

 

 

A few things from our point of view (the devs):

 

"Your Advanced Class choice very much defines how your character plays from the moment you choose it. Their impact is more akin to that of a different class in other MMOs than that of a different 'spec'. A Sith Sorcerer is very, very different from a Sith Assassin.

 

 

As mentioned before, the ability to respec your skills is definitely in the game. At this point, it costs credits but has no other requirements or limitations. The exact cost will be fine tuned, probably until ship, in conjunction with the rest of the economy - so giving precise numbers at this point isn't helpful.

 

 

We haven't made up our mind yet about the availability of an Advanced Class respec. We are evaluating all options (no Advanced Class respec, fixed cost respec, respec cost increasing with level, etc.).

A lot of thought currently goes into the consequences of Advanced Class respec - if we allow it, it will require players to relearn their entire approach to combat (which they learned over many many hours before) and replace the majority of their equipment, so it's not a thing we would want the player to do lightly, or just out of curiosity.

 

Ultimately, testing will tell us what we'll go with for launch, but even then - MMOs change, new content is added, player preferences emerge and change, so this is likely one of those topics we will be frequently discussing even after launch to ensure the design matches the expectations of our players and does not introduce unwelcome side effects.

 

With all this said - thank you very much for your continued feedback and thoughts on the topic. We are actively reading and discussing the topic frequently."

 

Yes, I have read the Damon Schubert interview. That was 9 months ago and zero movement has been made on this topic.

 

My point is, quotes don't mean much.

[ekwalizer]

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes

For those who are confused about classes.

Bounty hunter is your class, Powertech/Mercenary is your advance class (Spec, Soul, ect).

 

http://www.riftgame.com/en/characters/

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/class/

As you can see, each game has its BASE CLASS. Then theres the detailed class, whatever fancy name they want to give it.

Base class --> Detailed Class = Your character

^do not change ^ what we want to change

 

And you are wrong anyway. Retribution is a spec, not a class. Paladin is a class. Or am I confused? Does a Holy Pal and a Ret Pal have a different set of quest arcs?

 

Whereas, Merc and PT are different classes. Not because the have different quests but because they have wholly different talent trees.

 

Paladin is 1 class with 3 trees. Merc is 1 class with 3 trees. PT is one class with 3 trees. The "shared tree" isn't exact, as I pointed out already.

Edited August 3, 2013 by ekwalizer

[Grayseven]

I keep seeing the argument against AC change that people won't be able to play their "new" AC...

 

Folks, this is a very poor argument against.

 

If someone can't play their current AC, they won't be able to play their new AC. It's a wash since they already can't play regardless.

 

If someone can play their current AC, they will be able to play a new AC just as well. They have the game knowledge to easily pick up a rotation.

 

Use common sense. How many of us jump from class to class or spec to spec already? I go from DPS Commando to Healing Commando multiple times a day, and then jump to Counselor, Knight, IA, Inquistor...all in one day without missing a beat.

 

If I haven't played a class in a while (i.e. my Jugg) it might take me a couple of minutes to get in fresh in my mind, but that happens long before I actually group for anything with it.

 

So using "it'll make my queues suck more" just won't fly. Most of the anti-AC crowd seems to cling to this fallacy when it has absolutely no bearing on the argument whatsoever.

[Soluss]

None. But I can go through other games that have the similar situation as this game biggest one being Rift. If you start out as a Warrior in rift, you then pick your Soul (which is similar to AC). And your able to switch between all the souls in the Warrior because your still the warrior. World of Warcraft is similar to how SWTOR is. You start out a paladin, at level 10 you pick what you want to be as that paladin, they just dont have as many skill trees as swtor does for each class.

 

Each game has their own unique way of going further into each class. In the majority of games your able to switch around within your base class. As long as its not CLASS switching, and switching ACs is not class switching.

 

Bioware has stated that they view ACs as their own class. Switching ACs is indeed switching classes. Bioware gets to define the game, you do not.

[Grayseven]

Bioware has stated that they view ACs as their own class. Switching ACs is indeed switching classes. Bioware gets to define the game, you do not.

 

Bioware also made a statement towards allowing AC change. Since they do, indeed, get to define the game then they may believe that switching AC's is NOT switching classes...

[Ratajack]

Because I don't go read through 250+ pages of people barking at each other i'm ignoring reasons that your refusing to put on the table? I'm trying to have a debate with you about this, if your going to stand up for something then speak up and lets debate, if you don't want too quit replying to me trying to make it seem like i'm refusing to talk about this.

 

You do not want to debate. If you truly wanted to "debate", you would take the time to read this thread and find the reasons that he, and others, have posted countless times describing why allowing class changes could negatively impact the game and should not be allowed.

 

Your refusal to go back and read this thread to see the reasons that have been posted countless times falls into the category of LAZY, which considering the source, does not surprise me.

[Ratajack]

After going back through some of your posts, I believe you are confused with story/class. Bounty hunter is indeed a class, not just a story.

 

Powertech and Mercenary are DIFFERENT classes. You could classify bounty hunter as a class, but that makes powertech and mercenary no less there own SEPARATE classes.

 

That is according to the devs, not just my spin. If you doubt me, go back and read the thread. The links to the devs quote have been posted.

[Ratajack]

Bioware also made a statement towards allowing AC change. Since they do, indeed, get to define the game then they may believe that switching AC's is NOT switching classes...

 

When BW made the statement that AC changes would "likely happen" at some undetermined point in the future, they did NOT, in any way, contradict their earlier statements that AC are DIFFERENT classes. If yo have been paying attention, you would also know that the devs have not uttered even a whisper about allowing class changes since that statement, even in the face of this 270+ page thread, not even a "we're not saying no to the possibility", "we're still considering" or "we're working on it".

[Grayseven]

When BW made the statement that AC changes would "likely happen" at some undetermined point in the future, they did NOT, in any way, contradict their earlier statements that AC are DIFFERENT classes. If yo have been paying attention, you would also know that the devs have not uttered even a whisper about allowing class changes since that statement, even in the face of this 270+ page thread, not even a "we're not saying no to the possibility", "we're still considering" or "we're working on it".

 

They also haven't said anything about the SSSP, the Assassin/Shadow tank issue and hundreds of other things. Their silence means nothing. You are assuming a lot.

 

Also, I believe the correct word is SEPARATE, not different.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Grayseven

[Ratajack]

They also haven't said anything about the SSSP, the Assassin/Shadow tank issue and hundreds of other things. Their silence means nothing. You are assuming a lot.

 

Also, I believe the correct word is SEPARATE, not different.

 

You could use the term separate, but DIFFERENT is more applicable, IMO, since powetech and mercenary are NOT the same class. Not the same would be DIFFERENT, by definition.

[astrobearx]

Powertech and Mercenary are DIFFERENT classes. You could classify bounty hunter as a class, but that makes powertech and mercenary no less there own SEPARATE classes.

 

That is according to the devs, not just my spin. If you doubt me, go back and read the thread. The links to the devs quote have been posted.

 

this is totally wrong

 

BOUNTY HUNTER IS YOUR CLASS

 

 

as said here...

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes

 

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes/bounty-hunter

and on the loading screen when you load the game and etc.

 

 

MERC and POWERTECH are a SUBSET of your class.

 

 

you can spin it all you want, but according to the game, bounty is your class and the adv class is your specialization...ergo it isnt really a real class

Edited August 3, 2013 by astrobearx

[Ratajack]

this is totally wrong

 

BOUNTY HUNTER IS YOUR CLASS

 

 

as said here...

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes

 

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes/bounty-hunter

and on the loading screen when you load the game and etc.

 

 

MERC and POWERTECH are a SUBSET of your class.

 

 

you can spin it all you want, but according to the game, bounty is your class and the adv class is your specialization...ergo it isnt really a real class

 

You can ignore this all you want, but according to the devs, AC's are DIFFERENT classes.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Erickson

 

"The advanced class system exists because we’re already making the game story-wise bigger than every other game we’ve done put together. We pretty topped out at eight. It’s already huge and ridiculous, but for an MMOG, we wanted more classes than that for a variety of gameplay. Each of the advanced classes is basically a full class that we would have done."

 

 

Originally Posted by Daniel Erickson

"We had alot of internal debate whether to release the advanced classes, and people need to understand they are "works in progress". We have a very complicated class system. The advanced classes are TOTAL class systems by themselves. You can't think of other games where you have little offshoots.

Obviously, the ideal is that people don't ever need to respec their Advanced Class. There are additional measures we are putting in place to improve the communication about that choice to the player before it happens. Ideally, we would also allow you to 'test drive' the AC , but that's fairly expensive and unlikely to happen. It's more likely that we stick with a short period (a few levels) during which you can change your AC class for a credit cost before it locks in. We might attach other limiters than just credits (e.g completely disable the option past level 20 instead of a very high cost of credits.). That's what testing will determine."

 

 

 

A few things from our point of view (the devs):

 

"Your Advanced Class choice very much defines how your character plays from the moment you choose it. Their impact is more akin to that of a different class in other MMOs than that of a different 'spec'. A Sith Sorcerer is very, very different from a Sith Assassin.

 

 

As mentioned before, the ability to respec your skills is definitely in the game. At this point, it costs credits but has no other requirements or limitations. The exact cost will be fine tuned, probably until ship, in conjunction with the rest of the economy - so giving precise numbers at this point isn't helpful.

 

 

We haven't made up our mind yet about the availability of an Advanced Class respec. We are evaluating all options (no Advanced Class respec, fixed cost respec, respec cost increasing with level, etc.).

A lot of thought currently goes into the consequences of Advanced Class respec - if we allow it, it will require players to relearn their entire approach to combat (which they learned over many many hours before) and replace the majority of their equipment, so it's not a thing we would want the player to do lightly, or just out of curiosity.

Ultimately, testing will tell us what we'll go with for launch, but even then - MMOs change, new content is added, player preferences emerge and change, so this is likely one of those topics we will be frequently discussing even after launch to ensure the design matches the expectations of our players and does not introduce unwelcome side effects.

 

With all this said - thank you very much for your continued feedback and thoughts on the topic. We are actively reading and discussing the topic frequently."

[branmakmuffin]

You are stuck on attacking people who disagree.

You have a pretty thin skin if you view the post of mine that you replied to as an attack.

 

Also, im not intrested in another system in game that bioware gets to greedily farm CC off of 0 human oversight. There is NO reason to pay real life money for this in game system.

Then, should it become available, don't do it. What business is it of yours if others should choose to do so?

 

-2 of the classes cant preform all 3 availible roles, making them less desireable and underrespresented if this change is made.

And if AC change were made available to be done on a whim for free, you'd have a small point. But we all know if it were going to be made available, it would cost CC. And if someone wanted to swap ACs hourly and pay the associated CCs for it, that's none of your business.

 

-Most people need training wheels because they dont know WTH they are doing 60% of the time. Im not saying this to be a jerk or callous, its just true. Some people need a path to follow in order to even get beyond square one. Now give them the option to desiminate all the aquired experience to try something they think will be "very similar"...yeah right.

\

That happens now when respec'ing from DPS to tank. This argument is pure patronizing and arrogance. Here is it in plainer language: "I am so good at the game's roles that it would be unfair of me to have my valuable time wasted being teamed up with a noob who doesn't know how to play his role."

 

2 valid reason's why allowing someone to change their class to something they've never played before would be a negative influence on the community as a whole.

You've established that it would be a negative influence on you, for no reason other than you let it bother you.

 

Im abo****ely entitled, as a subscriber, to voice my opinion when potential resources could be used for this instead of content im intrested in. Yes im selfish. Sorry.

You're not sorry, so why say you are? "Waste of dev resources, IMO" is the only valid reason you or anyone else has presented or can present against AC change.