AP or Aim?

[Herbzta]

Attackpower or Aim?

 

what do you guys think`?

 

A - all AP

B - all AP with some crit mods

C - full AIM

 

 

Edited May 31, 2013 by Herbzta

[Marb]

greetings,

 

i´m a pvp PT pyro and i still don't know what to choose, AP or aim

 

aim raises damage&Crit

AP raises more damage then aim

 

so right now i´m at (without stim, selfbuffed)

 

1160-1478 dmg

789.7 bonus

18.52% crit

94% precision

75.84% surge

 

tech:

1229.2 dmg

22% cit

 

i´m not sure coz of the current crit,...setbonus(15% rail crit) and the 6% fire crit do increase it quite fine but when i will go for full AP in my mods and improvements and auguments i will loose more crit...

 

 

what do you guys think`?

 

A - all AP

B - all AP with some crit mods

C - full AIM

 

 

 

High power / low aim on mods. Aim in augments. For pve you will want 100% ranged accuracy and 110% tech, with any remaining enhancements going to surge.

 

At the moment crit is a wash, so maybe 2 or 3 crit mods (about 100-150 rating, maybe more)

[Brunner_Venda]

greetings,

 

i´m a pvp PT pyro:

 

Please stop that, think of the rest of your team.

 

PT pyros can't carry their own weight in a WZ. You are making seven people lose so you can play a weak broken spec.

 

AP can usually carry their own weight IF the player is halfway decent.

 

A Pyro on the other hand, has to be ungodly amazing to do what an average player can do with AP.

[Herbzta]

Please stop that, think of the rest of your team.

 

PT pyros can't carry their own weight in a WZ. You are making seven people lose so you can play a weak broken spec.

 

AP can usually carry their own weight IF the player is halfway decent.

 

A Pyro on the other hand, has to be ungodly amazing to do what an average player can do with AP.

 

actually i´m playing with the best maro on our server(he does most damage in EVERY game he plays) and i´m usually only like 5-10% behind his damage on the scoreboard

 

so you probably only know crap pyros..

[Brunner_Venda]

Template? Are you running one of the hybrids that pick up prototype flame, or did you go with full pyro up to thermal det?

 

The problem is, your PVP survivability is way down there as a pyro.

 

You lost DPS in CGC

You lost armor pen on rail.

You lost energy rebounder, the redoubt proc and CD reduction was amazing for us in 1.7. They put it in the AP tree.

Thermal det is now pathetic.

 

What did you get?

Improved Kolto overload CD reduction, and the skill is now a stupid HOT. Wow. The new skill is ****, you still die in one single smash.

Shoulder cannon missiles. Without AP their damage is crap, and there are only 4 of them.

 

I'm sure you're a great PT, I can only imagine how much better you would do in a less broken class.

[Herbzta]

High power / low aim on mods. Aim in augments. For pve you will want 100% ranged accuracy and 110% tech, with any remaining enhancements going to surge.

 

At the moment crit is a wash, so maybe 2 or 3 crit mods (about 100-150 rating, maybe more)

 

yes crit looks low on the surface but the skills & setbonus increase all necessary abilities

Edited May 25, 2013 by Herbzta

[Herbzta]

Template? Are you running one of the hybrids that pick up prototype flame, or did you go with full pyro up to thermal det?

 

The problem is, your PVP survivability is way down there as a pyro.

 

You lost DPS in CGC

You lost armor pen on rail.

You lost energy rebounder, the redoubt proc and CD reduction was amazing for us in 1.7. They put it in the AP tree.

Thermal det is now pathetic.

 

What did you get?

Improved Kolto overload CD reduction, and the skill is now a stupid HOT. Wow. The new skill is ****, you still die in one single smash.

Shoulder cannon missiles. Without AP their damage is crap, and there are only 4 of them.

 

I'm sure you're a great PT, I can only imagine how much better you would do in a less broken class.

 

this is my current build:

http://www.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/powertech/16/?build=003200000000000000000000000000000203000000000000000000000000000003200322021202120230003002120010&ver=20

 

shoulder cannon is very cooll, very good extra burst or insanely good while deffing for example hypergates..

 

thermal det is good too, currently my tooltip says it hits for 2533-2646 and it does 2078 over 12 sek, every dot dmg can also crit,....well that's 4500 dmg and can eaily be doubled with crits

 

currently my rails still hit for 5-6k and sometimes go for 7k....highest i´ve seen was a 16k on a pve player

 

my survability is quite good ..you just need to hold your grenades/ccs on cd and eat LOTS of medpacks...i ussually use like 4-6 medpacks every wz

Edited May 26, 2013 by Herbzta

[VigDiath]

Please stop that, think of the rest of your team.

 

PT pyros can't carry their own weight in a WZ. You are making seven people lose so you can play a weak broken spec.

 

AP can usually carry their own weight IF the player is halfway decent.

 

A Pyro on the other hand, has to be ungodly amazing to do what an average player can do with AP.

 

You must not play well if you think that. Anytime I play my Pyro PT I'm usually in the top damage IF I'm not number 1 in damage. My wife plays the same spec and has damage higher than me (Pyro has been her main since she retired her Assassin for about 6 months now and I just got mine to 50 a few weeks ago and 55 last week)

 

It's all in how you play and what your goal is. My goal is to harass healers, the ball carrier and people in general who come after me because they think Pyro has been completely gimped . If your goal is solely to have the highest damage in a WZ then you're doing it wrong. Doing all those things I mentioned above and being a general nuisance I can put out some awesome damage in WZs. I've seen other Pyro specced players who can do the same as well.

[Herbzta]

You must not play well if you think that. Anytime I play my Pyro PT I'm usually in the top damage IF I'm not number 1 in damage. My wife plays the same spec and has damage higher than me (Pyro has been her main since she retired her Assassin for about 6 months now and I just got mine to 50 a few weeks ago and 55 last week)

 

It's all in how you play and what your goal is. My goal is to harass healers, the ball carrier and people in general who come after me because they think Pyro has been completely gimped . If your goal is solely to have the highest damage in a WZ then you're doing it wrong. Doing all those things I mentioned above and being a general nuisance I can put out some awesome damage in WZs. I've seen other Pyro specced players who can do the same as well.

 

exactly, taking out healers or chasing their asses to eternity is your main objective....i think all operatives on my server hate me

[Aetrus]

exactly, taking out healers or chasing their asses to eternity is your main objective....i think all operatives on my server hate me

 

If you're killing healers 1v1 with a full TD build they're either average or bad. And well-coordinated teams don't let you chase their healers for 45+ seconds in order to bring them down. They peel, CC, and call focus fire on you and if you're a Pyro you drop in about 2 seconds.

 

Scoreboard damage isn't the issue. Whether I'm running AP or Pyro I'm usually in the top 3 damage-wise (in the WZ, not on the team.) It's actual kill potential and TTK that's the problem. Pyro is like the Madness Sorc of pre-2.0...you put up numbers, but its all dot fluff. You don't actually kill anything. Argue all you like, but Pyro has 1 ability that deals about 6k damage. And everything else is about 3.5k or less. TTK for this spec is higher than any other DPS spec in the game. And burst is king in high-level and rated play.

[Brunner_Venda]

I'm trying it. I always try to keep an open mind.

 

So far, yes it tops the damage boards, always first or second. Problem is that I can't kill anyone 1v1, and the number of kills total is either less or exactly the same as with AP. AP even murders sins 1v1.

 

I might need four eliminator pieces for proper testing, my current suit is combat tech. I'm working on that, it might even be useful in the future if the spec gets fixed.

 

I'll have to get back here with results, but so far deaths are way up.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Brunner_Venda

[Aetrus]

I'm trying it. I always try to keep an open mind.

 

So far, yes it tops the damage boards, always first or second. Problem is that I can't kill anyone 1v1, and the number of kills total is either less or exactly the same as with AP. AP even murders sins 1v1.

 

I might need four eliminator pieces for proper testing, my current suit is combat tech. I'm working on that, it might even be useful in the future if the spec gets fixed.

 

I'll have to get back here with results, but so far deaths are way up.

 

Yeah, I currently have min-maxed Eliminator's and Combat Tech Partisan sets. I play AP when solo, and Pyro when with my guild or running with a good healer. AP even roflstomps snipers. The only way to 1v1 anything with Pyro now is to go 11/8/27 (or 11/11/24, picking up Retractable Blade as someone on my server came up with and posted in this forum earlier this month.) Oil Slick is the key to dealing with maras/sins/snipers. I would recommend that far, far more than 5/5/36. TD deals less damage than the 11/8/27 Flame Burst does and you're way more survivable.

[Brunner_Venda]

I picked up the four piece set. AP set was already min-maxed to ditch alacrity and replace with Accuracy, power, and surge. All I did was replace the armor piece for the helm, gauntlet, boots, and greaves. I don't consider it a waste because pyro is still the better PVE spec, and I can at least do SM ops with it.

 

Now to see how it rolls. Without it, I was still doing great damage but dying twice more often. When I did get more kills, the deaths were a third of that. I lost more 1v1 than I won, but with AP I rarely lose.

 

I'll post a few stats later. I'm rolling with TD, because I need another mobile/instant damage ability to interweave with FB, RP, and rail. A pyro cannot sit still long enough to channel cast a proto flame thrower, it needs to be mobile and just out of range of SMASH . It always has to be a moving target. I might have to try oil slick though.

[Aetrus]

I'll post a few stats later. I'm rolling with TD, because I need another mobile/instant damage ability to interweave with FB, RP, and rail. A pyro cannot sit still long enough to channel cast a proto flame thrower, it needs to be mobile and just out of range of SMASH . It always has to be a moving target. I might have to try oil slick though.

 

Yeah, this makes no sense though. You're saying you need another instant damage ability besides FB, RP and Rail, but you don't. TD is the same range and heat cost as Flame Burst but deals less up front damage, has a high CD, and gives you no chance to refresh your Railshot via PPA proc. 2.0, Flame Burst is simply better in practically every way than TD. If you need to put a dot on someone, Incendiary Missile is always there.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Aetrus

[Brunner_Venda]

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

 

1. TD does about 2500 or so up front, more with a crit, and 2500 on the back end over 12 seconds.

 

Sounds like an opener move to me. It does full damage before the next CD assuming it isn't cleared.

 

2. TD DOT ticks independent of CGC and IM. Should be able to stack three at once.

 

The idea is to watch the health bar melt

 

My question is: what to replace it with?

[Philelectric]

actually i´m playing with the best maro on our server(he does most damage in EVERY game he plays) and i´m usually only like 5-10% behind his damage on the scoreboard

 

so you probably only know crap pyros..

 

Maybe the mara kill people faster so his total damage isnt pumped by tunnelvisioning?

 

Long live the tunnel vision scoreboard hero.

[Aetrus]

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

 

1. TD does about 2500 or so up front, more with a crit, and 2500 on the back end over 12 seconds.

 

Sounds like an opener move to me. It does full damage before the next CD assuming it isn't cleared.

 

My tooltip says 2382 up front, 18XX on the back end over 12 seconds. However, I ran a quick test on the WZ dummy on my ship. Here were the results of the up front damage:

 

Flame Burst (11/8/27):

 

1) 3585

2) 1806

3) 3734

4) 1795

5) 1927

6) 1803

7) 3687

8) 1734

9) 3722

10) 1807

11) 1829

12) 3467

 

TD (5/5/36):

 

1) 1943

2) 2004

3) 1931

4) 1946

5) 4048

6) 1941

7) 1944

8) 2015

9) 3947

10) 3999

11) 1985

12) 2019

 

Results (tossing out the min and max dmg of each):

 

Flame Burst avg: 2542.8

TD avg: 2374.3

 

During the quick test, I didn't use Explosive Fuel. I also didn't use any adrenals. I tested in my PvP gear, because I think PvP is what we're both talking about. Even if I were to use Explosive Fuel, especially in a practical setting, Flame Burst would still have an advantage because you get 3% more tech crit with the 11/8/27 build, and Flame Burst doesn't have a CD so you'll crit more often during the 15 second EF window.

 

Basically, if you crit or if you don't, Flame Burst and TD deal about the same damage up front. However, Flame Burst's CD gives you a chance to reset Railshot, which if it happens makes that GCD better spent using Flame Burst than using TD.

 

Test for yourself, since I could be crazy.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Aetrus

[Herbzta]

My tooltip says 2382 up front, 18XX on the back end over 12 seconds. However, I ran a quick test on the WZ dummy on my ship. Here were the results of the up front damage:

 

Flame Burst (11/8/27):

 

1) 3585

2) 1806

3) 3734

4) 1795

5) 1927

6) 1803

7) 3687

8) 1734

9) 3722

10) 1807

11) 1829

12) 3467

 

TD (5/5/36):

 

1) 1943

2) 2004

3) 1931

4) 1946

5) 4048

6) 1941

7) 1944

8) 2015

9) 3947

10) 3999

11) 1985

12) 2019

 

Results (tossing out the min and max dmg of each):

 

Flame Burst avg: 2542.8

TD avg: 2374.3

 

During the quick test, I didn't use Explosive Fuel. I also didn't use any adrenals. I tested in my PvP gear, because I think PvP is what we're both talking about. Even if I were to use Explosive Fuel, especially in a practical setting, Flame Burst would still have an advantage because you get 3% more tech crit with the 11/8/27 build, and Flame Burst doesn't have a CD so you'll crit more often during the 15 second EF window.

 

Basically, if you crit or if you don't, Flame Burst and TD deal about the same damage up front. However, Flame Burst's CD gives you a chance to reset Railshot, which if it happens makes that GCD better spent using Flame Burst than using TD.

 

Test for yourself, since I could be crazy.

 

with skilled flameburst:

 

1 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 2003 damage

2 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 4141 damage

3 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 1902 damage

4 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 1893 damage

5 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 1894 damage

6 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 4013 damage

7 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 2033 damage.

8 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 4378 damage.

9 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 2004 damage

10 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 3991 damage.

/10 = 2825,2

 

with thermal: ( i only play with TD)

 

1 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 1635 damage.

2 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 1895 damage

3 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 1903 damage.

4 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 3452 damage

5 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 3427 damage.

6 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 1638 damage.

7 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 3440 damage.

8 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 1656 damage

9 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 1633 damage.

10 Trainingsdummy with Flammensto� for 1931 damage

/10= 2261

 

but if you play with TD you have a TD impact that equals a FB but 12seconds of DOT that can be seen as extra flameburst dmg

 

but as you combine TD with EP you get a big extra burst , after 3 seconds the TD explodes, the second after that the TD explodes but within this second FB hits too and is followed by a RS, RP, RS and to top it you cast the 4 shouldermissiles between these abilities

 

i recently tested and in 30seconds i do an average of 90k damage on the pvptrainingsdummy

these are perfect conditions, i know...but still shows me that the PT pyro is still very competitive in pvp

 

 

take a look here:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=636466

 

the marauder that did 2nd most overall damage attacked me recently and i took him out before my reinforcements arrived in a RWZ

 

i watched their stream afterwards where you can hear him say "i see a PT deffing, i´ll try"

 

then silence

Edited May 26, 2013 by Herbzta

[Herbzta]

If you're killing healers 1v1 with a full TD build they're either average or bad. And well-coordinated teams don't let you chase their healers for 45+ seconds in order to bring them down. They peel, CC, and call focus fire on you and if you're a Pyro you drop in about 2 seconds.

 

Scoreboard damage isn't the issue. Whether I'm running AP or Pyro I'm usually in the top 3 damage-wise (in the WZ, not on the team.) It's actual kill potential and TTK that's the problem. Pyro is like the Madness Sorc of pre-2.0...you put up numbers, but its all dot fluff. You don't actually kill anything. Argue all you like, but Pyro has 1 ability that deals about 6k damage. And everything else is about 3.5k or less. TTK for this spec is higher than any other DPS spec in the game. And burst is king in high-level and rated play.

 

i usually don't chase someone that long, when i chase i call focus on my target and it goes down...

 

and i usually don't give much about the scoreboard in the end as it's not my objective to smash the crowd, my focus is to take people out one by one....of courz i do AE people but just between the bursts on singletargets

[Brunner_Venda]

You use TD in the downtime between when you rail, and when the prototype rail loaders are cooling down for six seconds. FB won't proc anything for at least two or three GCD's right?

 

Then you hit IM, FB and RP combo to try to proc it.

 

I'll admit though, half the time I forget to trigger TD because of the long CD, and hey, it's a whole fourth button added to a three button class! Lol!

 

1. My findings are pretty clear. Pyro PT melts in PVP - if you have a guard or a healer. Otherwise you're stuck on the med center merry go round.

 

2. Did about a dozen matches. Won half of them, which is rare for PUG. Even when we lost, I pulled more damage and nearly as many kills as an AP winning. I only scored under 300k in matches where I was guarding or huttball (because you don't kill to win, you score goals!).

 

3. Top damage was about a million in a healer thick match 18 kills. Less kills because I mostly chased and solo focused healers, which was half of the other team.

 

4. Average was about 500K+ damage, sometimes even when we lost.

 

5. I won six or seven MVP medals, because most people blindly pick the highest damage or heal number. AP is a more mobile and effective spec at capturing battlefield objectives and playing huttball. The lack of DPS dooms it to few MVP's though.

 

6. It still loses solo duels, especially to sins and juggs. Not EVERY time mind you, it all depends on how good the other player is, and whether you have defensive and healing CD's available.

 

7. We beat a premade twice with a pug. Spanked them, four players with one guild tag.

 

I'm sticking with it for now, see if I can get any better with it. I would still recommend AP for a newer player though simply because its more forgiving.

[Aetrus]

You use TD in the downtime between when you rail, and when the prototype rail loaders are cooling down for six seconds. FB won't proc anything for at least two or three GCD's right?

 

Nah there's no cooldown for the PPA proc. You can Railshot, proc PPA with Flame Burst, Railshot, Flameburst again and if you're lucky proc PPA again for another Railshot.

 

Pre 2.0 you would Explosive Dart>TD>Flame Burst>Railshot. Dart, TD, and Rail would all hit at the same exact time, resulting in massive spike damage. I've 100-0'd other PTs in ranked in the middle of their entire team mid node on Civil War before, with 1 rotation. It was great. Now with TD dealing the same or less up front damage than FB, I don't see a reason to use it. It adds nothing to a burst combo.

[Brunner_Venda]

No, I'm pretty sure there's a 6 second PPA cooldown.

 

When you start an attack, both rail and PPA are cooled off, so you can rail and RP/FB then rail again back to back.. After the first two, you have to suffer the cooldown.

 

PPA cooldown even puts an icon on your buff bar. Look for it.

 

1. Another thing noticed about going Pyro. After a while last night (over 2 dozen matches?) I started proc'ing the '5K attack in ten different matches' achievements on each map.

 

I don't think you all understand what that means.

 

It means that pyro regularly hits for over 5K.

 

AP DOES NOT! AP still dishes the damage, but heaps on many medium damage attacks.

 

Immolate usually hits for 3-4K

FB for 2K

Retractable blade for 1K?

RP usually crits with combat tech suit for 4K

Rail crits 100% of the time, but usually hits for 4.5K or so with only 30% armor penetration.

FB for 2K

Then prototype for 8K+, but each the attack is a channeled and does a little with each tick. Enemies usually just walk out of it, and all of your ticks have to crit for this to shine.

 

So in one full rotation AP can knock someone dead, but it's spread out over 15 seconds. It wins duels but doesn't kill healers.

[Aetrus]

1. Another thing noticed about going Pyro. After a while last night (over 2 dozen matches?) I started proc'ing the '5K attack in ten different matches' achievements on each map.

 

I don't think you all understand what that means.

 

It means that pyro regularly hits for over 5K.

 

AP DOES NOT! AP still dishes the damage, but heaps on many medium damage attacks.

 

Immolate usually hits for 3-4K

FB for 2K

Retractable blade for 1K?

RP usually crits with combat tech suit for 4K

Rail crits 100% of the time, but usually hits for 4.5K or so with only 30% armor penetration.

FB for 2K

Then prototype for 8K+, but each the attack is a channeled and does a little with each tick. Enemies usually just walk out of it, and all of your ticks have to crit for this to shine.

 

So in one full rotation AP can knock someone dead, but it's spread out over 15 seconds. It wins duels but doesn't kill healers.

 

It's the 6k damage medal, and your numbers are either off or your gear is waaay less than optimal. Rail will crit for the low 6ks frequently in Pyro, and I've only gotten the 6k medal in AP like once. Immolate can hit in the mid-5ks if it crits. Generally the hardest hitting ability in AP is actually Rocket Punch, which I've crit for 5.6k and up regularly. I find pressuring healers way easier in AP than in Pyro, because with 3 stacks on Prototype Flame Thrower, healers really get hurt and also can't get away. AP also has zero heat issues so I can keep the pressure up. With Pyro, if a healer cleanses twice, you're done. You're not killing him before you're screwed on heat.

[Herbzta]

somehow i don't get high numbers with AP spec....but i don't really take time to get used to it..

 

do you use same cylinder as in pyro spec? no or?

 

if you play with the cylinder that can be skilled in the AP tree (i don't know the translation right now) then how do you get to rail?

 

you see i never played AP before

[Herbzta]

but guys what about my initial question