Fixing Shadow Tank Spikiness

[helpmewin]

Please do not act in such a childish matter. While I do believe this topic is largely because of PVE content, I would not mind having a bit more survivability as a Shadow Tank in PVP and actually be viable in ranked warzones. I like to tank in PVP i dinged valour 100 a few months after the game came out and eventhough i stopped proper pvp for 7 months I had over 35k medals in my stats. So please show some respect to your fellow shadow tank players.

 

 

I do not know much about the person you guys are insulting, however, he just joined TOFN and he is an avid PVP-er. He plays kinetic and recently in the 1 v 1 tournament he came third beating quite a few people. He is not a retard or a noob and just because his language barrier poses a problem does not mean he has no idea what he is on about.

 

 

You guys pulled a knee-slapper on me as well when I raged on the PTS forums after 2.0 came out. Y'all said it was a matter of L2P and gear. Ironic how we are actually begging the devs to fix our class now because some of us knew back then, even when the first nerfs arrived, that we are gonna suffer.

 

TY Irisa!

 

You were complaining about mean mitigation and alpha strike mitigation, not RNG spike doom in Ops content. For alpha strikes, you should be using CDs properly, and our mean mitigation actually *did* get better. Just because you complained about something concerning Shadow tank survivability on the PTS doesn't mean you were complaining about the *right* thing. For the things you *were* complaining about, it was entirely appropriate to say l2p and gear.

 

You know what, i'm tired of this situation with shadow and this is not L2P and gear. I was tired to hear "Hey man, go and def pylon it is your job!" I know it is true, shadow is worst tank n PvP, i cant def the healer because shadow is paper tank, I don't understand why there was such situation with shadow tank. Why he is so bad as the tank? Whine? Maybe. He was the best before 1.3 "THE BEST". And now thanks to such active persons as you he will never take a buff to be equal to the vanguard or guardian.

[Kitru]

And now thanks to such active persons as you he will never take a buff to be equal to the vanguard or guardian.

 

You do realize that I've actually been actively campaigning *for* buffs, right? Just because I'm not asking for the poorly thought out, imbalanced, and, honestly, asinine changes that you want doesn't mean that I'm, for some reason, standing in the path of these fixes. Hell, you're posting in *my* thread about fixing this problem.

 

Before you want to get in my face about standing in the way of the class getting buffed, I suggest you actually learn some basic stuff about class balance and *math* before you start spouting off. You've really got no clue what you're talking about.

[helpmewin]

You do realize that I've actually been actively campaigning *for* buffs, right? Just because I'm not asking for the poorly thought out, imbalanced, and, honestly, asinine changes that you want doesn't mean that I'm, for some reason, standing in the path of these fixes. Hell, you're posting in *my* thread about fixing this problem.

 

Before you want to get in my face about standing in the way of the class getting buffed, I suggest you actually learn some basic stuff about class balance and *math* before you start spouting off. You've really got no clue what you're talking about.

 

Oh ok! I need to lear ofc. U are the best who knows about classes balance. Yes, yes. I play shadow tank in PvP more then year and i have another two tanks and i don't so stupid as u think. U are screaming around that we need to increase DR by 4-5% and sacrifice for it our defense or self healing and also you try to prove that is the best solution. This is crap solution. 4-5% DR is a minimum what need to do. And thats is not enough. Just try to play shadow tank as main on RWZ and you will see that i'm right. And thats is ur thread? Ok i will never disturb you in yours threads. Also I won't support. I will support more sane players. Good-bye.

[kwestone]

Oh ok! I need to lear ofc. U are the best who knows about classes balance. Yes, yes. I play shadow tank in PvP more then year and i have another two tanks and i don't so stupid as u think. U are screaming around that we need to increase DR by 4-5% and sacrifice for it our defense or self healing and also you try to prove that is the best solution. This is crap solution. 4-5% DR is a minimum what need to do. And thats is not enough. Just try to play shadow tank as main on RWZ and you will see that i'm right. And thats is ur thread? Ok i will never disturb you in yours threads. Also I won't support. I will support more sane players. Good-bye.

 

I read that in Borat's voice. It was PVP that broke assassin/shadows in the first place. The strive for balance in warzones has rendered us unable to tank NIM content in PVE.

 

I am pretty tired of hearing from PVP players actually at this point. Our raid group, which consisted of 2 assassin tanks, had to gear two alt Juggernauts in order to continue progression because our healers could not keep two spiky tanks alive without DPS dying. With 69 level mods and armorings, our Jugg alts are now performing much better and we have started to clear NIM again. Two fully 72 level gear assassin tanks are sitting and gathering dust, while we are playing a class that neither of us know all that well... and yet are performing better.

 

Kitru and KBN have been kind enough to provide the numbers, enough people have been pointing this out. If a tank class cannot clear the content and cannot compete with DPS then all it is viable for is Deception/Infiltration tree which is a PVP spec. So you guys are good. At least you have one viable tree. For PVE progression, we have 0.

[helpmewin]

I read that in Borat's voice. It was PVP that broke assassin/shadows in the first place. The strive for balance in warzones has rendered us unable to tank NIM content in PVE.

 

I am pretty tired of hearing from PVP players actually at this point. Our raid group, which consisted of 2 assassin tanks, had to gear two alt Juggernauts in order to continue progression because our healers could not keep two spiky tanks alive without DPS dying. With 69 level mods and armorings, our Jugg alts are now performing much better and we have started to clear NIM again. Two fully 72 level gear assassin tanks are sitting and gathering dust, while we are playing a class that neither of us know all that well... and yet are performing better.

 

Kitru and KBN have been kind enough to provide the numbers, enough people have been pointing this out. If a tank class cannot clear the content and cannot compete with DPS then all it is viable for is Deception/Infiltration tree which is a PVP spec. So you guys are good. At least you have one viable tree. For PVE progression, we have 0.

 

Sad to hear but i don't play in other spec.I'm playing in kinetic tree because i like this tree. I like this class. I don't play RWZ now cause shadow tank is ****. But I would like to. Like u would like to raid with your shadow tank. Now i'm playing with DPS gear and tank tree on NWZ because he have worst survivability and so though something I will be useful with DPS gear. And i don't want to be a node guarder all over the time.

Edited July 18, 2013 by helpmewin

[Leafy_Bug]

You were complaining about mean mitigation and alpha strike mitigation, not RNG spike doom in Ops content. For alpha strikes, you should be using CDs properly, and our mean mitigation actually *did* get better. Just because you complained about something concerning Shadow tank survivability on the PTS doesn't mean you were complaining about the *right* thing. For the things you *were* complaining about, it was entirely appropriate to say l2p and gear.

 

 

 

It was more than that. I was complaining about the trenchcutters in denova nim long before KBN opened his thread. I was complaining about losing huge chunks of HP compared to other tanks.I did not find it normal that as a tank I had to trolololol run at Kephess nightmare and focre speed away from the trenchcutters because I could not survive them. Furthermore, I saw the hits my shadow was taking, the chunks lost. It was not normal before 2.0 and now it has become ridiculous. In any case kitru, you can keep your mean mitigation as I told you for months , I'd like my shadow to be more reliable

 

 

*puts beer on table *

Edited July 18, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[Kitru]

.I did not find it normal that as a tank I had to trolololol run at Kephess nightmare and focre speed away from the trenchcutters because I could not survive them.

 

That was nasty but it was an acceptable level of nastiness, especially since, as a Shadow, we could Resilience through the shield damage to grab/maintain threat while the shield guys were being nuked down, not to mention being able to ignore DoT. Kephess was actually really well designed because it had some mechanics that demolished Shadows with other than Shadows were very good at getting around.

 

It was not normal before 2.0 and now it has become ridiculous. In any case kitru, you can keep your mean mitigation, I'd like my shadow to be more reliable

 

Honestly, spikiness pre-2.0 was perfectly acceptable as far as I was concerned because the content and the level of spikiness matched one another. The problem (which they did an excellent job of addressing, after we'd been complaining about it for 18 months, of course) was when we got nailed with enough attacks to peel off our KW stacks in half a second. Now, of course, spikiness got worse (harder DR curve on Shield and lower armor) and the spikes themselves got worse because of the shift in "expected" spikiness, as far as the content design devs are concerned because they base everything off of Guardian performance, got shifted *really* heavily towards super stable profiles.

 

If the massive spikes that currently exist *didn't* exist, Shadows would be fine. We're noticeably spikier which is fine. The problem is when our spikiness is so bad we can die for no reason other than bad RNG because the devs are completely ignorant of anything except for Guardian tanks, apparently.

[nagatamen]

I hope I haven't missed anyone else posting this, but what if we put the DR/Armor boost (or whatever solution is selected) onto Shadow Strike (when talented with Shadow Wrap)? Would that keep some of the desired player skill? Or is it too much like Blade Barrier for Guardians? It just seems to me that the main reason to use Shadow Strike as a tank is that it does a decent chunk of damage and aggro by extension instead of anything defensive/survival based, although I could be missing something I guess.

 

Slightly off-topic as it's not a spikiness question, but would making Shadow Strike ignore the GCD for tanks be balance breaking? I'm just curious as the only GCD ignoring ability I can think of off the top of my head is Kinetic Ward, while Guardians have Riposte and I don't know if Vanguards have anything off GCD.

[Kitru]

I hope I haven't missed anyone else posting this, but what if we put the DR/Armor boost (or whatever solution is selected) onto Shadow Strike (when talented with Shadow Wrap)?

 

My question would be "what's the point"? If Shadow Wrap proc'd upon being attacked *maybe*, but Shadow Wrap + Shadow Strike isn't really used all that often in my experience (I often end up seeing the buff fade because I'm too busy with Project, Slow Time, Force Breach, and TkT channels). It really just replaces about one-third of Double Strikes with a higher damage variant for much the same cost (it's actually slightly more expensive thanks to Psychokinesis reducing the cost of DS to 23). Attaching some level of survivability to it wouldn't really make Shadows more "skill oriented" since there isn't really much skill in getting Shadow Wrap to proc to let you use Shadow Strike. It's just arbitrarily trying to attach more importance to Shadow Wrap while requiring more buff maintenance (which isn't really skill when it's just "use this attack whenever it lights up"; it just creates arbitrary reliance upon RNG to *get* that proc to go off when you need it)

 

It just seems to me that the main reason to use Shadow Strike as a tank is that it does a decent chunk of damage and aggro by extension instead of anything defensive/survival based, although I could be missing something I guess.

 

It's the same reason we use Spinning Strike rather than Double Strike during the execute phase: it doesn't really cost anything and provides additional damage/threat. Not *everything* has to be survivability based and not everything *should* be survivability based. It's perfectly alright for some stuff to be focused on threat/damage than survivability. Hell, more than half of the Guardian abilities have nothing to do with survivability, and the VG abilities are only attached to the survivability construct because they rely on Ion Cell procs to reduce the CD on Energy Blast (which is pretty much the same reason why you could claim that Double Strike and Particle Acceleration are mitigation mechanisms rather than damage/threat because they reduce the cycle on TkT by small amounts; their impact on threat/damage is actually *way* bigger than their impact on survivability).

 

Also, taking it off GCD and/or tying a mitigation buff to it doesn't increase the skill cap. Skill cap is based upon not just doing something as soon as possible to maintain a buff permanently. Force Breach is more skill involved than Force Sweep because Force Breach isn't useful as an ST attack and is only used in the ST rotation because of the acc debuff it provides (which is one of the reasons why I've always liked running with a Guardian co-tank: they keep up the acc debuff because Force Sweep should be used on CD which means that I don't have to waste Force and attention on maintaining the debuff). Just adding a buff to an ability that's already used as part of the optimal threat rotation doesn't really increase the skill requirement, especially if said buff is permanent or near so. All you'd be doing is shifting Shadow Strike's place on the priority list, which isn't "skill" so much as a minor shuffling. It's only low on there because all it does is provide damage/threat.

 

Shadow Wrap is fine how it is now. It's just a proc that lets you upgrade a DS to a Shadow Strike once every 1-2 TkT cycles for some extra damage/threat (and a pretty good amount too, considering SS's damage). We already get something like Blade Barrier in Project and Slow Time: they generate HS stacks which allows us to get big damage and heals out of TkT. It's a more *complex* mechanic than Blade Barrier (and, honestly, it kind of saddens me just how *little* interaction there is with the Guardian tank attacks; there aren't even any CD resets to change things up; it is, quite literally, a straight up *rotation*) but that doesn't mean it doesn't fill the same functionality niche.

 

would making Shadow Strike ignore the GCD for tanks be balance breaking?

 

In its current state, yes, it would. It would provide a pretty big increase in sustained and *especially* burst damage considering how hard it hits. Even if you just replaced the GCD that it would currently occupy with a Saber Strike, you're still getting a substantial increase in DPS (~1000 every 12 seconds or so; which is 83 dps; currently, tanks are pulling ~1k so an extra ~80 would be a pretty big increase) while maintaining the exact same resources. Considering that the main reason why it's *not* used as often as it could be is because of the GCD limitations imposed by having a large number of more important attacks ahead of it and the DPS contribution actually gets a fair deal *higher* since, if it's off GCD, you'd be using it as soon as it comes up every single time.

 

I would also have to wonder "why?" once again. We're already using KW off GCD (which is a lot more involved that using Riposte or Energy Blast whenever it lights up) while having the most convoluted and involved attack string (of course, this isn't really saying much since VGs and Guardians are almost painfully faceroll for both of 'em, but having to watch/cycle procs and stacks rather than just going through a basic rotation or keeping everything on CD *is* already more involved). Asking for it to be taken off the GCD just seems arbitrary.

 

I'm just curious as the only GCD ignoring ability I can think of off the top of my head is Kinetic Ward, while Guardians have Riposte and I don't know if Vanguards have anything off GCD.

 

Vanguards have Energy Blast, which is off the GCD. That leaves 1 ability for each tank off the GCD and, honestly, KW is already the most complicated, even if it's not an attack, simply because it's not "use on CD" (it also has a *way* bigger impact on survivability than either of the other 2 abilities, but that's beside the point). You could also argue that Shoulder Cannon counts, but Shoulder Cannon is on such a long CD that I really don't see the point in counting it (especially since the damage/contribution is pretty pitiful).

Edited July 19, 2013 by Kitru

[Grumpftard]

U are screaming around that we need to increase DR by 4-5% and sacrifice for it our defense or self healing and also you try to prove that is the best solution. This is crap solution. 4-5% DR is a minimum what need to do. And thats is not enough.

 

I understand what you're saying. In PvP... Survivability is a matter of how long you last against your opponent. It's either have the defense to withstand your enemies attacks or the DPS to kill him before he kills you.

 

The problem is if you increase JUST 4-5% DR it would really help with the PvP part, but then we will actually be a bit over powered for PvE. Shadow has great mitigation already. We are just prone to spikes. You will have to balance it by removing something like defense or self-heals.

 

Your earlier suggestion about changing DPS would have no effect on Spike damage which is what the thread is discussing. Not just overall survivability.

 

If the devs could xix things so that they worked right in both PvE and PvP, I would actually consider going back to PvP

Edited July 19, 2013 by Grumpftard

[PifferPuff]

There is way too much complaining about how Shadow tanks are too spikey. While they may be a bit more spikey than the other two, the real problem is that you all just SUCK at playing your Shadow tank. All 3 tanks are well balanced right now.

 

As it has been from the start, Shadows require the most skill to play versus the other classes so idiots will have a tough time playing Shadows.

 

To all the theory-crafters out there who have actually compared the 3 tanks, you will find that Shadows actually require the least amount of healing over time compared to their counterparts. A great Shadow who can take advantage of their phase walk will also amplify the healers in the group. I will say this though...most of the time it is not the Shadow tanks fault and the fault lies on the healers. A Shadow tanks amplifies the healers so they will work extremely well with a boss healer and will suck with a crappy healer.

 

Since the healers should know who the tanks are and the mechanics of the fight, they should know when to keep tanks topped off for when damage spikes will occur. Tanks also should know when to pop their defensive cooldowns. Put those 2 things together and your spikiness complaint goes out the window.

 

The fact of the matter is that Shadows being more spikey is the perfect trade-off for them requiring the least amount of healing over the duration of a fight. BW did everything right with tanks in 2.0 so you all should stop being a bunch of ..... and work on fixing your play style versus complaining that you suck at the class.

 

 

Hmm... not sure if trolling, or simply ignorant of Shadow tanks. ...... Alright, I'll bite (1/10 btw)...

 

Firstly, your post seems to indicate that you have never tanked as a Shadow, and are "theory-crafting" yourself, as a counter argument as to why Shadow tanks are "spikey" (or as I'd rather call them, squish-tacular cheesy poofs that break into a puff of dust with just one unlucky roll).

 

To qualify myself: I know how to roll as a Shadow tank. I am solid with my mechanics, my optimum rotation to generate and maintain threat, and to survive. I did extremely well pre-2.0. I had done all the most difficult content, I FELT like a tank, and could take the hardest hits with the best of them. After 2.0, all of that changed. And now, it's not about skill (it takes you only so far); it's about nerfs - and how to over-gear to compensate for them. Shadow tanks have consistently received nerfs - patch and patch again: 1.3 saw a DR nerf (but new up-and-coming gear balanced that out a bit), same with 2.0 (but no gear has yet to be released that compensates for the massive drop in mitigation stats across-the-board in concert with almost half the DR of the other 2 tanks), along with a few ability nerfs in between. To the best of my knowledge, Shadow tanks have NEVER received a single buff; they've only received nerfs: It's NERF or nothin'!™

 

Even the devs, during the 2.0 PTS testing phase, justified their reasons of nerfing Shadow tanks' survivability with blanket "all classes received some type of survivability reduction" and "all classes are meeting their respected TTK targets" statements. So, they feel that the community should just shut-up about Shadow tanks. Maybe the devs only cared about PvP balancing and not about PvE. Maybe they favor derp-smashers and Juggs/Guardians. Maybe they prefer Mini Coopers over Rolls Royce. Who knows their true reasoning behind their inane judgement calls over tank/class balancing. The facts speak for themselves: WE ... ARE ... BROKEN ... as Main-tanks. The most we can be in raids are Off-tanks (add pulls, stealth CC'ers and **** like that).

 

The icing - on this mother****ing ****-cake - is when I hear other players (esp. Shadow tanks - lol) justify how Shadow tanks are not broken. A common convo cycle would follow ...

 

I ask them: are they Shadow tanks themselves? Yes. Then I ask them, "did you complete NiM SnV?" No. Why not? Hint: it's not the healer's fault. Let a Guardian main tank that, and you will see completion. Then they will say that they can MT cos their healers are great. I will concede that point and add that their healers are probably so boss that they can keep a Sentinel up as a MT. Then they will usually get flustered, and at that point, I remind them of the dev posts about TTK targets and such, and the mathematical analyses scattered on the forums by two of our best and brightest. And also add in my own anecdotes.

 

Anecdote: Like the last time I was in an op as a MT (the group chose me to MT - said 'I'll do my best' - though doubting just how well I would fair against Thrasher). So, we breeze through the first 2 bosses, and trash. I'm only doing the trash pulls with my mouse, after Titan (my other hand is occupied with a phone to my head) - just to give you an idea how well (or over) geared we all are (dps incl.). So then, we get to Thrasher (and this is SM SnV btw), and I'm tanking him. After a few hits, I realize that this ****er hits like a mac truck, so I'm popping everything I had at the right times (my 2 self heal abilities with right timings in the boss' attacks, stacking with buffs and my PW circle, keeping KW up, and popping the other 2 defensive CDs for the biggest hits) - including Biochem reusable adrenals and heals - for good measure when my other skills are on CD. Just to note, I am in full 72's with 31 main hand and off-hand hilt and armoring (i.e. over-geared for this op). But that boss hits like a bull: 100% health - then one heavy hit later - 15% health. And this was pretty consistent with most of his hard hits. I think like only one or two big hits were successfully shielded and/or glanced off with some very lucky rolls. However, to all my best efforts, there was only so much the over-geared skilled healers could do. I died half-way through (50% or so on the boss), and the off-tank (a Guardian) picked him up, and had no difficulty surviving. He just tanked that ****er like a boss. Those same big hits that nearly killed me only dropped him from 100% health to 50%. Easy (in comparison to me) to heal through. And the kicker: he was less geared than me. Though only slightly (i.e. he had like two or so 69's - legs and wrist or some such - but everything else was 72). Also, as an aside: everyone was "Greeding' on loot drops: they all had the same or better. It was a run merely for the WEEKLY.

 

So - back to the other players - they then usually qualify their points/roll with "I don't need math, I'm doing just fine - derp." We agree to disagree, and I just leave it at that.

 

Now, you can go right ahead and claim Phase Walk is the **** for healing a Shadow tank. But, honestly, it does almost **** all. 5% boost to heals - Hah. What a joke. Its best use is to drop it on your group when they stack on a boss, so area heals stack with more overall heals per tick - so the healers can focus on the tank and not so much (if at all) on the dps. To correct your middle statement, Shadow tanks require MORE healing; not less. Just to be clear, spikes = more heals required. ...And I know - I've healed Shadow and Assassin tanks, so I can speak on the healer's role as well: they NEED a mega-****-tonne of heals - even on HM FP trash pulls.

 

Then again, your post was pointed to dissuade any buffs that might (though unlikely) come to Shadow tanks, as you are likely a derp-smasher, and don't want to lose your comfortable footing in PvP. Am I right?

Edited July 19, 2013 by PifferPuff

[Kitru]

To correct your middle statement, Shadow tanks require MORE healing; not less. Just to be clear, spikes = more heals required. ...And I know - I've healed Shadow and Assassin tanks, so I can speak on the healer's role as well: they NEED a mega-****-tonne of heals - even on HM FP trash pulls.

 

Actually, Shadows have the highest mean mitigation, which means that they require the least outside heals. What you're experiencing is the fact that Shadows *need* those heals in *very* small increments. Shadows require less healing over the long term but, in the short term, the other tanks have a pretty standard need for heals whereas a Shadow has a massive range of potential healing need that it might require: if you get lucky (and no one really tends to notice those, and Shadows are more prone to them anyways), you won't require jack-**** for healing; if you get *unlucky*, you'll spike hard and *fast* causing yourself and the healer to almost have a heart attack.

 

Now, we tend to *remember* this as "requires more healing" because human memories are not designed to remember the average case but instead the exceptional cases (which is why we remember idiots more than the large number of competent people you run with). It still doesn't change the fact that Shadows *do* require less outside healing, which is why you can't just apply a straight buff to our mean mitigation. Our mitigation profile is where the problem lies, which means that we don't need explicit increases so much as a shift in the way we mitigate damage (i.e. swapping out some self healing, defense, and/or shield/abs for DR).

[Leafy_Bug]

Actually, Shadows have the highest mean mitigation, which means that they require the least outside heals. What you're experiencing is the fact that Shadows *need* those heals in *very* small increments. Shadows require less healing over the long term but, in the short term, the other tanks have a pretty standard need for heals whereas a Shadow has a massive range of potential healing need that it might require: if you get lucky (and no one really tends to notice those, and Shadows are more prone to them anyways), you won't require jack-**** for healing; if you get *unlucky*, you'll spike hard and *fast* causing yourself and the healer to almost have a heart attack.

 

Now, we tend to *remember* this as "requires more healing" because human memories are not designed to remember the average case but instead the exceptional cases (which is why we remember idiots more than the large number of competent people you run with). It still doesn't change the fact that Shadows *do* require less outside healing, which is why you can't just apply a straight buff to our mean mitigation. Our mitigation profile is where the problem lies, which means that we don't need explicit increases so much as a shift in the way we mitigate damage (i.e. swapping out some self healing, defense, and/or shield/abs for DR).

 

 

 

So when we look at the final logs after the ops and I see the heals received category (excluding my self healing) I find the following :

 

1. Irisa (my shadow tank) 750k

2. Merlinke (my guardian co tank) 600k.

 

 

Then if we look at overall damage taken, again I am top of the jungle. I am sorry Kitru but this is like the allegory of the cave where after a raid you end up in 5 pages of theory crafting to explain that Shadows have the best mitigation overall. Then the raid group looks at the logs, torparse or mox shows that you received 150k extra healing and I claim that actually, I receive less healing because I have better mean mitigation.

 

 

The more I read this thread I realize that fixing shadow tank spikyness will only solve half the problem. PVP will still relegate us to node guarders and spectators when I comes to RWZ.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[nagatamen]

So when we look at the final logs after the ops and I see the heals received category (excluding my self healing) I find the following :

 

1. Irisa (my shadow tank) 750k

2. Merlinke (my guardian co tank) 600k.

 

Out of curiosity, is that all heals received (including overheals)? I ask because my understanding is that in non-spike fights where staying above 90% at all times is not needed there are less overheals and less heals total too. On spikey fights I've heard that shadows get a lot of overhealing as they always have to be topped off. Just my understanding as I just play tanks, not healers.

[Kitru]

So when we look at the final logs after the ops and I see the heals received category (excluding my self healing) I find the following :

 

1. Irisa (my shadow tank) 750k

2. Merlinke (my guardian co tank) 600k.

 

So the both of you were under the same incoming damage *constantly*? You have the *exact* same uptime on all bosses and in all trash packs? You were *both* using your CDs in the *exact* same optimal manner to avoid incoming damage?

 

The info you're providing here info means *absolutely nothing* beyond the fact that you had more incoming damage. It has absolutely *no* relevance to mean mitigation because you were not subject *to* the same incoming base damage which would be *required* to determine who had better mean mitigation.

 

Also, there's a *vast* difference between mean mitigation and damage taken. Shadows have self heals which are a part of mean mitigation but they're not factored into damage taken numbers on parsers. They *are*, however, factored into heals received and heal output. Guardian Blade Barrier, on the other hand, is not because it prevents damage from being taken. As such, fully 25+% of your real mean mitigation isn't being factored in.

 

Parsers are *not* valid mechanisms to determine mean mitigation, and they never have been. The fact that you seem to *think* they are when they are *massively* flawed is pretty indicative of your general lack of critical thinking skills. Parsers are useless (or, in your case, misleading) if you're not capable of actually understanding what the information actually *means*.

 

Mean mitigation is *entirely* built around math. We know all of the variables and exactly how they behave. Your inability to properly interpret parsed information has absolutely no impact on that.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Kitru

[MythicalKnight]

To correct your middle statement, Shadow tanks require MORE healing; not less. Just to be clear, spikes = more heals required. ...And I know - I've healed Shadow and Assassin tanks, so I can speak on the healer's role as well: they NEED a mega-****-tonne of heals - even on HM FP trash pulls.

 

Actually, Shadows have the highest mean mitigation, which means that they require the least outside heals. What you're experiencing is the fact that Shadows *need* those heals in *very* small increments. Shadows require less healing over the long term but, in the short term, the other tanks have a pretty standard need for heals whereas a Shadow has a massive range of potential healing need that it might require: if you get lucky (and no one really tends to notice those, and Shadows are more prone to them anyways), you won't require jack-**** for healing; if you get *unlucky*, you'll spike hard and *fast* causing yourself and the healer to almost have a heart attack.

 

Adding proof for both points for quoted here:

 

This parse is my assassin tank in NiM TFB Kephess. Incoming HPS? 2200. Incoming DPS from Kephess? 8200! Almost 4x what my healers can output in the first 10 seconds of the fight. It's not the healers fault that Assassins are RNG tanks right now.

 

My group finally did kill Kephess Thursday night (the first group in Torva Nex to do so) by *NOT* having me MT in the second phase (and that was by some fluke of mechanics where the ball didn't get cleared off of me after I got the lightning field).

[Liwilliams]

I'm shocked that they are aware of this problem and haven't even taken the time to do a bandaid in a patch until they can think of solid fix. The more I get into the end-game aspects as a shadow tank, the more shocked I am to see content that cannot be completed solely do the fact of RNG.

[Kitru]

The more I get into the end-game aspects as a shadow tank, the more shocked I am to see content that cannot be completed solely do the fact of RNG.

 

The issue is that it *can* be completed; it's just disproportionately hard to do so thanks to the RNG nature of Shadow tank spikiness.

[Leafy_Bug]

So the both of you were under the same incoming damage *constantly*? You have the *exact* same uptime on all bosses and in all trash packs? You were *both* using your CDs in the *exact* same optimal manner to avoid incoming damage?

 

The info you're providing here info means *absolutely nothing* beyond the fact that you had more incoming damage. It has absolutely *no* relevance to mean mitigation because you were not subject *to* the same incoming base damage which would be *required* to determine who had better mean mitigation.

 

Also, there's a *vast* difference between mean mitigation and damage taken. Shadows have self heals which are a part of mean mitigation but they're not factored into damage taken numbers on parsers. They *are*, however, factored into heals received and heal output. Guardian Blade Barrier, on the other hand, is not because it prevents damage from being taken. As such, fully 25+% of your real mean mitigation isn't being factored in.

 

Parsers are *not* valid mechanisms to determine mean mitigation, and they never have been. The fact that you seem to *think* they are when they are *massively* flawed is pretty indicative of your general lack of critical thinking skills. Parsers are useless (or, in your case, misleading) if you're not capable of actually understanding what the information actually *means*.

 

Mean mitigation is *entirely* built around math. We know all of the variables and exactly how they behave. Your inability to properly interpret parsed information has absolutely no impact on that.

 

 

To answer your question in a nutshell, yes those are rough numbers from TFB 16 man hardmode final boss where we kind of tank roughly the same amount of time. They represent the DELTA In healing and not the actual numbers as something happened with my torparse account where my logs got corrupted. Apart from cooldowns which I use more often than him due to chunks lost of my HP, overall I get more healing by a large margin. This is 150-200k more healing on my tank which ultimately represents the damage taken as well. Tentacle hits me on an unlucky RNG up to 11.5k. He gets hit tops 7k. It is no secret that over a whole fight, Torparse Client will show the shadow with more healing received.

 

 

Also, please point me to a parser that interprets the numbers they way you claim they are. At this point in time, no parser shows that a shadow gets less healing overall than the other tanks. No matter the fight, in the healing received section, shadows will have received more healing than any of the other tanks. I am using Torparse and MoX Raid data to compare our performance. Can you link me your special parser ?

 

 

 

PS: This whole mean mitigation chestnut is getting a little old. You are starting to use it as before when L2P was the anthem. The truth of the matter is, with this uber mean mitigation, we are not part of top tier raids anymore. If we join, things become more difficult.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[Berjiz]

To answer your question in a nutshell, yes those are rough numbers from TFB 16 man hardmode final boss where we kind of tank roughly the same amount of time. They represent the DELTA In healing and not the actual numbers as something happened with my torparse account where my logs got corrupted. Apart from cooldowns which I use more often than him due to chunks lost of my HP, overall I get more healing by a large margin. This is 150-200k more healing on my tank which ultimately represents the damage taken as well. Tentacle hits me on an unlucky RNG up to 11.5k. He gets hit tops 7k. It is no secret that over a whole fight, Torparse Client will show the shadow with more healing received.

 

 

Also, please point me to a parser that interprets the numbers they way you claim they are. At this point in time, no parser shows that a shadow gets less healing overall than the other tanks. No matter the fight, in the healing received section, shadows will have received more healing than any of the other tanks. I am using Torparse and MoX Raid data to compare our performance. Can you link me your special parser ?

 

 

 

PS: This whole mean mitigation chestnut is getting a little old. You are starting to use it as before when L2P was the anthem. The truth of the matter is, with this uber mean mitigation, we are not part of top tier raids anymore. If we join, things become more difficult.

 

Whats the overheal numbers? Isn't the increased healing on the sin indircetly caused by the spikiness since it means that the sins need to be at top health a lot more than the jugger. And that it turn means more wasted heals. Higher mean migation doesn't automatically turn in to less healing needed in reality.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Berjiz

[MasterGladius]

Kitru's point about the healing is that not all of the healing is being provided by the healers. Your self healing gets added into that figure, which is part of your 'mitigation profile.'

 

In short, some of the mitigation is not in preventing damage, but rather in recovering from said damage after the fact. The way the class is designed, self healing is considered a mitigation, and thus contributes to the mean mitigation.

 

In addition, you are expected to take more damage, part of which is offset by self heals after the fact, so you expect to see 2 things based on the design of the class. Firstly, more damage. Secondly, more healing, but in the end the two should still be equivalent just as they would be with any other tank.

 

The big part of where the difference sets in for shadows is that due to their spikiness, healers have to routinely overheal to ensure you are always topped off before the next big spike. That is a legitimate problem.

[Kitru]

PS: This whole mean mitigation chestnut is getting a little old. You are starting to use it as before when L2P was the anthem. The truth of the matter is, with this uber mean mitigation, we are not part of top tier raids anymore. If we join, things become more difficult.

 

The reason that Shadows are problematic now is not, nor has it *ever* been, mean mitigation. The problem is spikiness. A Shadow *will* require less outside healing than a Guardian or VG. That's not even a question at this moment. It's a known value. The reason why Shadows are problematic is because Shadows receive said damage in substantially larger clumps than either Guardians or VGs. It's not a question of damage taken over a long period of time (mean mitigation) but damage taken over short periods of time (spikiness). The two are *related* but one doesn't prove the other.

 

As to "finding a new parser", it's not about finding a new parser. It's *understanding the information the parser provides*. You don't understand the information it's providing. You're looking at damage taken, which doesn't factor in self-healing. You're operating under the assumption that you had *perfectly equal* uptime on the bosses (even taking 1 extra Scream phase on p2 of TfB is going to skew it *a lot*, not to mention the inevitable inequality of tank uptime on the burn phase). Neither of those is even remotely appropriate, especially if you're trying to *prove* mitigation inequality.

 

Having a parser and dumping a number without actually understanding everything else that's going on is less useful than just not having a number because, rather than coming to *no* conclusion, you're coming to an *erroneous* conclusion (which is what you've done, once again).

[AAAAzrael]

Also, please point me to a parser that interprets the numbers they way you claim they are. At this point in time, no parser shows that a shadow gets less healing overall than the other tanks. No matter the fight, in the healing received section, shadows will have received more healing than any of the other tanks. I am using Torparse and MoX Raid data to compare our performance. Can you link me your special parser ?

 

To make it rough comparison you'd need to remove heals from combat technique, TkT and possibly relic from the log and then compare them. In my case it's 10-30% healing received on HM ops runs (haven't done NiM yet so can't say).

 

 

It would be interesting to compare outside healing received and effective healing received, ie. compare wasted heals. That would be some kind of metric for how challenging is shadow healing for healers. Optimally would be nice to compare for top-tier and average healer/tank pairs.

[MGNMTTRN]

The reason that Shadows are problematic now is not, nor has it *ever* been, mean mitigation. The problem is spikiness. A Shadow *will* require less outside healing than a Guardian or VG. That's not even a question at this moment.

Is there some way we can verify this?

[Kitru]

Is there some way we can verify this?

 

The most effective way would be to use parses with specially set PvP scenarios. We know Shadow self healing and Guardian absorb shielding pretty well (~330 and ~120, respectively) so we don't even need to have the tank attacking. All we would need to do is get one player/character with a pure M/R basic attack and throw 1000 or so of said attacks into each of the tanks (could be collected over multiple parses). The time factor wouldn't matter because it's a single attack that would be used every 1.5 seconds (even if there is a delay, we still know that it's one attack per GCD). Repeat the same with a pure F/T attack.

 

Once we've collected the incoming damage and divided it by the damage we know to be the pre-mitigation incoming DPS, we can combine that with the self healing at the known M/R + F/T ratios and a set of arbitrarily chosen pre-mitigation incoming damage numbers (2k, 3k, 4k, 5k, 6k) to compare. It would create a chart for the various possible levels of post mitigation damage at the various expectable ratios and pre-mitigation damage values.

 

Of course, this entire test would be predicated upon the supposition that the game operates on different numbers than we're provided with on the character sheet. Rather than being a test of mean mitigation, it's more of a test of whether the information we're already operating off of is actually correct.