The Dark Side of...compassion?

[slayermasterz]

This has always bugged the hell out of me, if the dark side is brought about my strong emotions, does that mean that compassion, empathy, love and forgiveness turn you...evil? This logic seems backwards, can someone explain this to me?

[Wolfninjajedi]

It isn't so much that, it is more the consequences of them. Take for example Love, Anakin was willing to do anything for Padme, anything to save her because he loved her. That in turn became a lust for power, where by the end Anakin was consumed by the darkside. Or take another example, Qui-Gon had a love involvement with Tahl, and thus when she died he fell into a depression and his emotions for revenge surfaced thus he nearly went over to the darkside. Edited May 16, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[zzoorrzz]

I think that is correct. If you love somebody a lot, it can lead you to the dark side easily. For example somebody does something bad to somebody you love, so you start hate that person and possibly want revenge etc. There's a reason why Jedi say "no emotion". And it is our biggest edge over them - that it's so hard to follow their rules and very easy to fail eventually.

[SithKoriandr]

This has always bugged the hell out of me, if the dark side is brought about my strong emotions, does that mean that compassion, empathy, love and forgiveness turn you...evil? This logic seems backwards, can someone explain this to me?

 

These are people basically have the ability to go Firestarter on you when they get upset!

 

"You broke up with me?!" *FORCE CHOKE*

 

"You killed my lover?!" *FORCE CHOKE*

 

"We're at war?" *DESTROY PLANET WITH JUST THE FORCE*

 

These are dangerous individuals. The question shouldn't be, why do they Jedi try to train their members to control their emotions, the question should be, why do the players in all their cries for realism, not think the force users wouldn't be erradicated by every non force user.

[AlexDougherty]

This has always bugged the hell out of me, if the dark side is brought about my strong emotions, does that mean that compassion, empathy, love and forgiveness turn you...evil? This logic seems backwards, can someone explain this to me?

 

Empathy is not an emotion, it's the ability te see things from the other persons perspective, which theoretically could turn you (if you see things too much from that perspective).

 

Forgiveness also is not technically an emotion either, it's This

 

Compassion is not a strong emotion, yes this one is an emotion or emotional state of being, but it's a gentle emotion, nobody was ever consumed with compassion.

 

 

Love is a strong emotion, and can twist your perspective, poets have long said that love and hate are strongly intertwined, and I would suggest you read up on this poetic perspective.

 

Other Strong emotions that could lead to the darkside are desire, anger, hate, lust and fear.

[Trimaxion]

Compassion is not a strong emotion, yes this one is an emotion or emotional state of being, but it's a gentle emotion, nobody was ever consumed with compassion.

 

I think you're wrong.

 

Compassion could consume someone, in fact it literally means "to suffer with", Intense compassion for another (perhaps one you love) could lead you to the dark side to alleviate their suffering.

 

Of course I could be wrong.

[slayermasterz]

Alright, I see your points that one can lead to another, but must that always be the case? It seems (to me at least) that the jedi espouse forgiveness and the sith revenge. Could you not have intense love and compassion and then just, forgive trespasses? Negating the whole "dark path" thing entirely?

[Trimaxion]

You could, if you could...

 

It seems clear from what I've read that the emotions of force followers tend to be naturally heightened and the more power they wield the stronger they are (feel free to correct me on that, but I'm sure its alluded to both in the films and at least in "truce at bakura") It can be quite easy to forgive trespasses against ourselves, but trespasses against those we love? Much harder even for us mere mortals.

 

IMHO Jedi don't avoid emotions because they ALWAYS lead to the dark side but because they've been proven to do so often in a lot of people in the wrong situation and it's an ugly galaxy out there. The Jedi are trying to walk a difficult path and have to make rules based on generalities so they supress all dangerous emotions where possible.

[ScarletBlaze]

Alright, I see your points that one can lead to another, but must that always be the case? It seems (to me at least) that the jedi espouse forgiveness and the sith revenge. Could you not have intense love and compassion and then just, forgive trespasses? Negating the whole "dark path" thing entirely?

 

Some can. Most react immediately when someone hurts someone they love. They don't take the time to cool off and then react, which by the way is a lot of problems even in r/l. You can love without jumping to go and get revenge. Maybe what people need to do is step back a minute.

 

Take for instance Obi-Wan and Siri when she was killed did he go after revenge? No he was angry at first but then he remembered what she would have wanted him to do and did not go after revenge. So yes you can love and forgive, which in my book makes you a better person. It is easier to get revenge than to forgive someone.

[SithKoriandr]

You could, if you could...

 

It seems clear from what I've read that the emotions of force followers tend to be naturally heightened and the more power they wield the stronger they are (feel free to correct me on that, but I'm sure its alluded to both in the films and at least in "truce at bakura") It can be quite easy to forgive trespasses against ourselves, but trespasses against those we love? Much harder even for us mere mortals.

 

IMHO Jedi don't avoid emotions because they ALWAYS lead to the dark side but because they've been proven to do so often in a lot of people in the wrong situation and it's an ugly galaxy out there. The Jedi are trying to walk a difficult path and have to make rules based on generalities so they supress all dangerous emotions where possible.

 

Exactly. It's not that one couldn't, it's that it's proven in most cases that people fall. That being the case, they train the one way, because you're never going to be able to look at someone and just say "Yeah. You won't fall, so it's okay for you."

 

Which is likely why they're make exceptions to those who've trained longer, have proven themselves more, and generally they feel they trust not to kill the masses everytime they get upset.

[slayermasterz]

Maybe the jedi order should teach forgiveness and control instead of suppression?

[Trimaxion]

Maybe the jedi order should teach forgiveness and control instead of suppression?

 

Only if you think driver training should be exchanged for extra crash protection in vehicles.

 

Better to avoid the situation than put people in a crash and teach them to try to get out the other side without harm.

 

They do teach forgiveness but they also frown on attachments. There's millions of examples in real life of good people flying off the handle from every walk of life and social background where their loved ones are threatened or hurt.

 

I don't think it can be safely navigated by everyone.

[Bytemite]

Only if you think driver training should be exchanged for extra crash protection in vehicles.

 

Better to avoid the situation than put people in a crash and teach them to try to get out the other side without harm.

 

They do teach forgiveness but they also frown on attachments. There's millions of examples in real life of good people flying off the handle from every walk of life and social background where their loved ones are threatened or hurt.

 

I don't think it can be safely navigated by everyone.

 

Seems to me both training and crash protection are important.

 

Especially because cars don't have feelings. Jedi might try not to, but they do. It can be demonstrated that suppressing emotion can sometimes create like a pressurized container. If you take out all the ways it can vent safely, then when it breaks it might explode. That's possibly a big part of why when jedi fall they fall so hard - if they feel everything more and it builds up, then when it releases you have a ready combination of violence and issues, and a willingness to act on them that might start to feel "good" or "natural" or "liberating" or whatever and it all quickly spirals downward.

 

As for the original question, I think ultimately it boils down to the difference between doing the right thing for the right reason, and doing the right thing for the wrong reason.

 

Though even doing the right thing for the right reason and having it go wrong can put a person on precarious emotional territory. Yet to do nothing to prevent or avert a tragedy is also the wrong thing. It's a catch-22, and it's going to happen in life if a person ever has to interact with other people. That's where that don't give in to despair thing the Jedi also teach comes in.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Bytemite

[Trimaxion]

It can be demonstrated that suppressing emotion can sometimes create like a pressurized container. If you take out all the ways it can vent safely, then when it breaks it might explode.

 

You're actually back to front there. Contrary to popular wisdom suppressing emotions reduces them, expressing them encourages them.

 

Pavlovian really, stimulus response, but what response.

 

The more you cry and break down the more it becomes a go to response for your body. The more you suppress and let go of emotion the easier it is to do.

 

Catharsis is a lie,

[Bytemite]

Cites?

 

I'm reading Gross and Watson 1993 web address http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~ucbpl/docs/42-Emotional suppression93.pdf

 

Agrees with the popular wisdom, though in fairness psych studies are often designed with a bias to confirm the hypothesis.

 

Wikipedia also indicates similar heightened negative impacts of emotional suppression. http://En.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_self-regulation

 

Most google search results seem to support the conclusion of instability created by suppression. Do you speak from personal experience or empirical evidence?

Edited May 16, 2013 by Bytemite

[Trimaxion]

Both as it happens.

 

Can't find the original study I read online but here:

 

http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/08/11/catharsis/

 

A link to an article on it containing further links to the studies it's based on.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Trimaxion

[Bytemite]

Hmmmm. Bushman has also written studies about violence in youth and attributes it to stress from video game violence. I would like to read the original article myself.

[Kaedusz]

This has always bugged the hell out of me, if the dark side is brought about my strong emotions, does that mean that compassion, empathy, love and forgiveness turn you...evil? This logic seems backwards, can someone explain this to me?

 

Dude,dude,dude...... just have a look at the basic philosophy behind the christian religion,tibetan buddhism,ordinary buddism,hinduism teachings about feelings,the physical world and the reality of it,(google Maya{illusion}) and you will know what the jedi are talking about.Basically all feelings except pure unconditional love towards everything living is crap.(this has nothing to do with man<->woman love)

 

George Lucas borrowed his jedi teachings from stuff from real world religions.For example when Yoda says to Anakin,you need to learn to LET GO of the stuff you fear to lose(don't remember the actual quote,it's been a long time) this is pure hinduism and buddhism.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Bytemite]

I found http:// selfcontrol.psych.lsa.umich.edu/papers/Mischowski, Kross, and Bushman, 2012.pdf

 

Bushman is one of the authors. This describes aggression decreasing as the result of "fly on the wall" approaches to rumination about a heat of the moment conflict.

 

However, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12486372 describes long term effects of emotional suppression techniques, oddly including acting out, as increasing symptoms of physical and psychological stress, while at the same time reducing self-awareness and recognition of emotional responses (alexithymia).

Edited May 16, 2013 by Bytemite

[Trimaxion]

Hmmmm. Bushman has also written studies about violence in youth and attributes it to stress from video game violence. I would like to read the original article myself.

 

I think most of those studies tend to put the cart before the horse.

 

I think violent people are driven to expressions of violence including in that of video games, but I digress.

[Trimaxion]

However, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12486372 describes long term effects of emotional suppression techniques, oddly including acting out, as increasing symptoms of physical and psychological stress, while at the same time reducing self-awareness and recognition of emotional responses (alexithymia).

 

I'd argue that there is a difference between cumulative influences and repeated one off ones.

 

Stress tends to be cumulative other emotions like love and hate not so much. I think suppressing cumulative emotions can result in a pressure cooker type effect since it builds, I don't believe the same effect occurs with one off instances of love or pain.

 

 

Of course I don't have a source for this, it's just a belief.

[Bytemite]

I think most of those studies tend to put the cart before the horse.

 

I think violent people are driven to expressions of violence including in that of video games, but I digress.

 

True. Both hypotheses are interesting and may have evidence to support them. I can not determine which is more correct based on the available information.

 

I find the inclusion of "acting out" as a emotional suppression technique in the Australian study intriguing. Maybe these techniques we're discussing are really the flip sides of the same coin?

 

The alexithymia is also something to think about. If it's not so much that the jedi don't feel but rather don't recognize that they're feeling, I could see that having some consequences. I wonder if jedi and masters alike all have attachmentsand biases and don't realize it or acknowledge it to themselves?

Edited May 16, 2013 by Bytemite

[Trimaxion]

With regards to alexithymia I'd suggest the best way to see would be to study if it was possible to be instilled as a learned behaviour.

 

Shame it would be unethical.

 

After all they take kids very young and train them, perhaps that training and upbringing creates the disorder.

[Bytemite]

I'd argue that there is a difference between cumulative influences and repeated one off ones.

 

Stress tends to be cumulative other emotions like love and hate not so much. I think suppressing cumulative emotions can result in a pressure cooker type effect since it builds, I don't believe the same effect occurs with one off instances of love or pain.

 

 

Of course I don't have a source for this, it's just a belief.

 

Lust and desire might be one off. Not so sure about hate and love. Those tend to feedback on themselves over time. Cumulative anger fear pain hate and love I could see all potentially leading to crazy times.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Bytemite

[Bytemite]

With regards to alexithymia I'd suggest the best way to see would be to study if it was possible to be instilled as a learned behaviour.

 

Shame it would be unethical.

 

After all they take kids very young and train them, perhaps that training and upbringing creates the disorder.

 

Yes, I'd be curious if this looks similar as well.

 

Also the over the top embracing of emotions that the Sith do are kinda like acting out in response to trauma as described. I wonder if they have alexithymia problems as well. Like misattributing many of their emotional reactions to anger and hate as a self-delusion.

 

This has been fun. I learned something.