Why is commando/merc (assault/pyro) so weak?

[dejavy]

Earlier my combo was like:

1. Assault plastique

2. Sicky grenade

3. Instant free cost plasma

4. Incendiary round

5. HIB

6. Fullauto (HiB proc)

7. HIB again

8. Stockstrike if melee

 

and my foe was hardly alive in 5 seconds. Now this combo is still more or less fine but it's incomparable with the previous version. Have only i noticed it? I don't mention those shi*y new talents the assault tree has got which are absolutely weak on wz. As for ammo control, it's kind of catastrophy! I have to hammer shot all the time coz i'm dry after few shots. Earlier i hadn't got the problem at all.

 

Is anyone playing the tree? Maybe i'm doing something wrong?

Edited May 15, 2013 by dejavy

[Kovaos]

Maybe it's weak now because you were running around killing people in 5 seconds.

[dejavy]

But now peeps die even faster if they fight with maras and some talented sorcs and even ssins.

[TheCourier-]

Arsenal is a very strong spec.

[dcgregorya]

But now peeps die even faster if they fight with maras and some talented sorcs and even ssins.

 

This is a common misconception. All single target DPS specs do pretty similar sustained single target damage. Some are 'burstier' than others, which is useful when focusing down targets, but isn't really that useful 1vs1 unless your opponent "freaks out" when they take one big hit.

 

So if its just me vs you, and I'm tactics VG or pyro commando and you're smash jugg I'm going to win that fight every time because I'm not going to freak out when you drop a smash on me and I can use hold the line/hydraulic overrides to dodge further smashes outside the initial leap/smash. This is regardless of your burst, because burst doesn't matter unless its enough to kill someone or part of focus fire.

Edited May 15, 2013 by dcgregorya

[stendarrs]

I'm not sure if this comment is in regards to 2.1 or if you're just noticing the changes from 2.0. Assault tree got nerfed in 2.0 which I think is most likely what you're noticing. Plasma cell get nerfed, assault plastique got nerfed and HIB got nerfed with reduced armor penetration. The changes are quite noticeable. Basically, post 2.0, switch to gunnery.

[foxmob]

Maybe it's weak now because you were running around killing people in 5 seconds.

 

he said merc/mando brainchild.

[cashogy_reborn]

pyro got nerfed hard. Thermal Det damage cut by 50% and given a crappy DoT and CGC damage reduced by 50%. and rail shot does not hit hard enough in that spec to really make up the difference.

 

the things that made pyro better than arsenal pre 2.0 no longer hold true. mobility is similar in both, arsenal has better survivability and utility skills, and arsenal has greater burst output.

[dcgregorya]

pyro got nerfed hard. Thermal Det damage cut by 50% and given a crappy DoT and CGC damage reduced by 50%. and rail shot does not hit hard enough in that spec to really make up the difference.

 

the things that made pyro better than arsenal pre 2.0 no longer hold true. mobility is similar in both, arsenal has better survivability and utility skills, and arsenal has greater burst output.

 

Honestly, IMHO, with the ranged snare component of missile blast and the net, it's much better now than it ever was pre-2.0.

[foxmob]

Honestly, IMHO, with the ranged snare component of missile blast and the net, it's much better now than it ever was pre-2.0.

 

net is an extremely effective abil against melee, as much offensive as defensive. still, merc/mando pyro/assault got wrecked by the nerf to the assault spec in general. that said...gunnery is wicked good right now. so at least you have a solid dps tree AND a solid heal tree, whereas before you had a mediocre dps tree a mediocre heal tree and an unplayable dps tree.

Edited May 15, 2013 by foxmob

[cashogy_reborn]

Honestly, IMHO, with the ranged snare component of missile blast and the net, it's much better now than it ever was pre-2.0.

 

except you are doing no damage to competent players.

[dcgregorya]

net is an extremely effective abil against melee, as much offensive as defensive. still, merc/mando pyro/assault got wrecked by the nerf to the assault spec in general. that said...gunnery is wicked good right now. so at least you have a solid dps tree AND a solid heal tree, whereas before you had a mediocre dps tree a mediocre heal tree and an unplayable dps tree.

 

Pyro is also wicked good. Arsenal is also good but I've been rocking pyro all day, still topping damage, still topping solo kills, no problems at all.

[dcgregorya]

except you are doing no damage to competent players.

 

How do you figure? Operative and merc healers are the only ones who can remove tech DoTs and you can re-apply them much faster than they can remove them...they can only remove two at time. For me, missile blast hits for around 3k anyway in between rail shots and instant cast power shots. Honestly if you think its terrible, I think you're doing it wrong.

[cashogy_reborn]

How do you figure? Operative and merc healers are the only ones who can remove tech DoTs and you can re-apply them much faster than they can remove them...they can only remove two at time. For me, missile blast hits for around 3k anyway in between rail shots and instant cast power shots. Honestly if you think its terrible, I think you're doing it wrong.

 

against crappy pugs you will be fine.

that seems to the measuring stick nowadays

[foxmob]

against crappy pugs you will be fine.

that seems to the measuring stick nowadays

 

I will only disagree in regard to electro net. the difference between a good player and a random pug is that when I throw net on a good player, I can't bait him away from his healer and solo him with hib + hammer shots (on my medic).

 

anyway, my point is that electro net does *significant* dmg in combination with the snare that allows you cast whatever (if I'm in a hurry, I'll throw a few charged bolts at him).

[dcgregorya]

against crappy pugs you will be fine.

that seems to the measuring stick nowadays

 

Oh I get it, you can't explain how the mechanics are worse so you'll refer to RWZ which no one does. Well played.

 

Merc lost 50% damage on CGC and thermal det got swapped to 1/2 damage 1/2 DoT and they lost the damage CD reduction on 25% dam redux CD. They gained a ranged 100% snare, 100% chance to land CGC ranged, hydraulic overrides, a reset on their jet boost and electro net and more mobile damage with double missile blasts and energy reduction on missile blast, a DoT damage redux, an instant cast AOE heal and the much improved kolto overload.

 

I personally think it was a good trade (for mercs at least, it's a direct nerf to PTs who have too short range to make DoTs work well for them) and its certainly not like they're totally gimped now and useless. The only situation where they're "bad" is the hypothetical one where people have spammable tech cleanses off GCD that they're hitting the target with constantly.

Edited May 15, 2013 by dcgregorya

[cashogy_reborn]

Oh I get it, you can't explain how the mechanics are worse so you'll refer to RWZ which no one does. Well played.

 

Merc lost 50% damage on CGC and thermal det got swapped to 1/2 damage 1/2 DoT and they lost the damage CD reduction on 25% dam redux CD. They gained a ranged 100% snare, 100% chance to land CGC ranged, hydraulic overrides, a reset on their jet boost and electro net and more mobile damage with double missile blasts and energy reduction on missile blast, a DoT damage redux, an instant cast AOE heal and the much improved kolto overload.

 

I personally think it was a good trade (for mercs at least, it's a direct nerf to PTs who have too short range to make DoTs work well for them) and its certainly not like they're totally gimped now and useless. The only situation where they're "bad" is the hypothetical one where people have spammable tech cleanses off GCD that they're hitting the target with constantly.

 

i can explain why. it would just require me to spend 5-10 minutes tpying and massive cba to do that for you when it has been done many times already

[islander]

against crappy pugs you will be fine.

that seems to the measuring stick nowadays

 

Yes, but considering about 95% of PvPers don't have a ranked rating at all...can't be surprised about this.

Edited May 15, 2013 by islander

[dcgregorya]

Yes, but considering about 95% of PvPers don't have a ranked rating at all...can't be surprised about this.

 

And if the argument is that "All DoT specs are not RWZ viable" then it's still a "who cares" sort of thing isn't it? So don't use it for RWZ. That doesn't make it bad, it's great for solo queuing because it offers more mobility and survivability than arsenal (though, arsenal is still really good right now). Its not exactly like pyro merc was tearing it up in RWZ before 2.0 anyway.

Edited May 15, 2013 by dcgregorya

[Jayshames]

Incendiary round is what makes Pt/Vg so weak in my opinion.

Compare it to Snipers 20 point talent (Corrosive grenade)

 

Incendiary round is 4 or 10 metres range, Corrosive grenade is 35 metres.

Damage is similar on both I believe.

Corrosive grenade is AoE, Icendiary round is single target.

Corrosive grenade can be talented to slow for 6 seconds, Incendiary has no related talents.

Corrosive grenade uses 1/10th of Snipers energy pool, Incendiary round uses 1/4 of energy pool.

 

Seems like Icendiary round really needs a buff.

 

Oh, and this is coming from someone who plays a Sniper so it's not bias at all.

[dcgregorya]

Incendiary round is what makes Pt/Vg so weak in my opinion.

Compare it to Snipers 20 point talent (Corrosive grenade)

 

Incendiary round is 4 or 10 metres range, Corrosive grenade is 35 metres.

Damage is similar on both I believe.

Corrosive grenade is AoE, Icendiary round is single target.

Corrosive grenade can be talented to slow for 6 seconds, Incendiary has no related talents.

Corrosive grenade uses 1/10th of Snipers energy pool, Incendiary round uses 1/4 of energy pool.

 

Seems like Icendiary round really needs a buff.

 

Oh, and this is coming from someone who plays a Sniper so it's not bias at all.

 

Comparing talent to talent is kinda a waste and doesn't really make much sense. But that being said, the range nerfs to VG/PT aren't necessary any longer. They should increase incendiary and thermal det back to 30m and pyro PT/assault VG will be more viable. This thread was however about mercs/mandos which IMHO are fine.

[DeadDogBarking]

Pyro got a swift kick for 2.0, get the alacrity bonuses from the trees if possible (not quite sure where, I play arsenal).

 

BUT bigger plus - all ranged classes are for the most parts topping charts over melee dps, meaning if you stay back and have less than 2 melee DPS on your team the smashers are taking more damage by needing to spend more time with each target (new abilities). Ive been taking screen shots and will post soon. On Jung Mah, The team with dominant ranged/stealth wins and pyro does hit top for dps and medals more than before. Hell hit the aoe heal when ever in a group and get 1 maybe 2 heal medals

 

Being melee is now like charging a trench in WW1, the machine guns will take out most of the squad. Just do not use rocket punch on my Jedi because if you are coming in that close and do not have stun and sniper tricks you will get 100% of my frustration starting with knocking your targeting down to almost 0. I played pyro for a while after the points reset and went back because the speed with alacrity abilities really work and favor how i like to play.

 

Stay back run around like a rabbit and hope the gunslingers and stealth have not stopped kiting medals and you are fine. This come from playing both sides.

[ToMyMa]

Earlier my combo was like:

1. Assault plastique

2. Sicky grenade

3. Instant free cost plasma

4. Incendiary round

5. HIB

6. Fullauto (HiB proc)

7. HIB again

8. Stockstrike if melee

 

and my foe was hardly alive in 5 seconds. Now this combo is still more or less fine but it's incomparable with the previous version. Have only i noticed it? I don't mention those shi*y new talents the assault tree has got which are absolutely weak on wz. As for ammo control, it's kind of catastrophy! I have to hammer shot all the time coz i'm dry after few shots. Earlier i hadn't got the problem at all.

 

Is anyone playing the tree? Maybe i'm doing something wrong?

 

Have noticed that too, but I am getting my **s handed to me by one particular merc pyro, but that has to be skill, as he's kiting like crazy, LOS and so on. I used to be a assault commando like you, Dejavue, but then I took a 10k demo round to my face...

 

(Cya back in the fight)

[foxmob]

Incendiary round is what makes Pt/Vg so weak in my opinion.

Compare it to Snipers 20 point talent (Corrosive grenade)

 

Incendiary round is 4 or 10 metres range, Corrosive grenade is 35 metres.

Damage is similar on both I believe.

Corrosive grenade is AoE, Icendiary round is single target.

Corrosive grenade can be talented to slow for 6 seconds, Incendiary has no related talents.

Corrosive grenade uses 1/10th of Snipers energy pool, Incendiary round uses 1/4 of energy pool.

 

Seems like Icendiary round really needs a buff.

 

Oh, and this is coming from someone who plays a Sniper so it's not bias at all.

are you sure about this? I thought I read a passive commando-only skill (ala cleanse) that extended the range of incendiary and assault plastique back to 30m. or maybe I just dreamt it up cuz it makes too much sense. lol

Edited May 15, 2013 by foxmob

[foxmob]

Earlier my combo was like:

1. Assault plastique

2. Sicky grenade

3. Instant free cost plasma

4. Incendiary round

5. HIB

6. Fullauto (HiB proc)

7. HIB again

8. Stockstrike if melee

 

and my foe was hardly alive in 5 seconds. Now this combo is still more or less fine but it's incomparable with the previous version. Have only i noticed it? I don't mention those shi*y new talents the assault tree has got which are absolutely weak on wz. As for ammo control, it's kind of catastrophy! I have to hammer shot all the time coz i'm dry after few shots. Earlier i hadn't got the problem at all.

 

Is anyone playing the tree? Maybe i'm doing something wrong?

I haven't played the spec since 1.3, but where are you getting a free instant plasma grenade from? or are you popping 2 cd's for that?