Bloodthirst needs a Global Cooldown

[Grimsblood]

1. Bloodthirst (and other Temporary Group Buffs) are GROUP only (even in Ops).

2. Since they are on such a long CD and have high requirements (expending 30 stacks), even if the group had four of them, there would be 3 minutes of no temporary buffs.

 

Bloodthirst/Inspiration is a group Buff.

Zen/(Whatever Imp name is) @ 30 stacks is a group heal buff as well as personal damage buff.

Predation/Transcendence is an Op Buff (Multiple groups benifiet)

Sniper/Slinger Shield is a whoever the hell is underneath it Buff.

 

Just for clarification purposes

 

 

Content that is not hard is not relevant. Doing leet dps on a boss that is trivial does not prove very much.

 

HM 8 Styrak is one of the only bosses that was non-trivial and 4 of the top 6 parses for it are Marauders. That Marauder DPS is very good is not the concern, that they do top tier dps and provide the strongest buff is a problem.

 

All other class utility is simply execution, if you can already execute a fight properly and your group is still hitting enrage, Marauders can fix it. The fact that you can swap out your worst dps for a Marauder that does slightly less damage than them and be further ahead is a balance problem.

 

BTW HM 8 Man Golden Fury is the other fight that was non-trivial and 7 of the top 8 parses are Marauders or Sentinels.

 

 

Wait a minute, are you two really making the argument that the only fights in the game that matter are the "hard" ones? Let me think about this for a minute:

 

Class A tops charts for 11/13 fights.

Class B doesn't rate close on 11/13 fights.

Class B is better on 2/13 fights.

Class B must be better then Class A!

 

..........I don't understand, I mean if Class B was soooo good to top charts on the "hard fights" Class B should be able to do the "easy" ones without a problem...............................

 

 

Content that is not hard is not relevant. Doing leet dps on a boss that is trivial does not prove very much.

 

HM 8 Styrak is one of the only bosses that was non-trivial and 4 of the top 6 parses for it are Marauders. That Marauder DPS is very good is not the concern, that they do top tier dps and provide the strongest buff is a problem.

 

All other class utility is simply execution, if you can already execute a fight properly and your group is still hitting enrage, Marauders can fix it. The fact that you can swap out your worst dps for a Marauder that does slightly less damage than them and be further ahead is a balance problem.

 

 

Yeah, about that.............................................the other solutions are to get better dps, more geared dps or a new strat to maximize dps. So, there are more solutions then adding a Marauder........................

 

 

On the other hand, if you think about it in terms of NiM TFB, which classes can do the most damage given the mechanics of TFB bosses becomes a very relevant question.

 

Engineering/Saboteur Sniper/Gunslinger of course! But we won't tell them that, now will be

Edited May 16, 2013 by Grimsblood

[namesaretough]

Engineering/Saboteur Sniper/Gunslinger of course! But we won't tell them that, now will be

 

There's nothing to see here

[Lostpenguins]

Most of you have missed the point of this thread. It is not that Marauder dps is too good, It is that they provide too much raid utility for the damage they do. This is compounded when a hypothetical boss fight(s), lets say Nightmare TFB allows you to run as much melee as you want and enrage is a real concern. It is a common strategy to bring in extra marauders if you can't quite make enrage in Nightmare Progression fights because rolling Bloodthirst is overpowered.

 

Of course superior players of every class exist, OMG XYZ TORPARSE!!!! proves nothing. The game is not balanced around the top 0.1% of players.

Are you just mad because you aren't performing as well as the Marauders in your raid? Because clearly you're trying to bring a Utility Tax w/out acknowledging the Hybrid Tax. And, even then, as someone else pointed out, Marauders aren't even topping the highest dps for a melee class (let along most any of the DPS roles), consistently. So not only do Marauders not do top dps of all the classes, they don't do top dps in the melee classes, consistently. And since they cannot respect to another role, they get more utility.

 

We done here yet? Or are you just going to keep crying because you're getting beat by a marauder in your raid? Or is that your other dps'ers aren't very good?

[The_Rye_Guy]

Are you just mad because you aren't performing as well as the Marauders in your raid? Because clearly you're trying to bring a Utility Tax w/out acknowledging the Hybrid Tax.

 

I heal most of the time. I also played a marauder in the past. I do not agree that there is a Hybrid Tax, Dps is balanced for the most part. Concealment Operatives / Assassins will get the short end of the stick simply due to PvP Balance and Powertechs might be a little undertuned.

 

Marauder DPS is ok, Bloodthirst is ok, being able to bring multiple marauders for multiple BT's is NOT ok. Unless you have done actual Progression Raiding, where everyone is in the best gear and you can't youtube strategy videos, you are out of your element here. More Marauders is a real strategy that has been used to success in the past.

 

When you have more than enough skill players to fill your raid, you pick based on class. Marauders have an unfair advantage here. If BT did not stack each additional Marauder would be no more effective than any other dps. As it is now not only are marauders very good dps, they make everyone better.

Edited May 16, 2013 by The_Rye_Guy
spelling

[Thundergulch]

If BT did not stack each additional Marauder would be no more effective than any other dps. As it is now not only are marauders very good dps, they make everyone better.

 

Bloodthirst does not stack.

[The_Rye_Guy]

Bloodthirst does not stack.

 

Semantics, it can used serially. Rather than having a group wide 5min CD Debuff.

[Lostpenguins]

I heal most of the time. I also played a marauder in the past. I do not agree that there is a Hybrid Tax, Dps is balanced for the most part. Concealment Operatives / Assassins will get the short end of the stick simply due to PvP Balance and Powertechs might be a little undertuned.

 

Marauder DPS is ok, Bloodthirst is ok, being able to bring multiple marauders for multiple BT's is NOT ok. Unless you have done actual Progression Raiding, where everyone is in the best gear and you can't youtube strategy videos, you are out of your element here. More Marauders is a real strategy that has been used to success in the past.

 

When you have more than enough skill players to fill your raid, you pick based on class. Marauders have an unfair advantage here. If BT did not stack each additional Marauder would be no more effective than any other dps. As it is now not only are marauders very good dps, they make everyone better.

1 - We're a progression guild.

2 - We don't stack Marauders as we don't need to. Sorry if you feel you need to.

3 - We used to have more than 1 8-man Ops group and when we did we would split the Marauders so that classes are split evenly. When we had to squeeze down to 1 do to attendance we didn't "stack Marauders". I'm really not sure what guilds do that.

 

And, no, you don't get to dismiss the Hybrid Tax and hold onto your Utility Tax. Completely invalidates your argument because you're failing to see the whole scenario and just tunnel-vision what you want and try to mask it under "balance" and "fairness".

 

If you're saying that you want BT to put a debuff up on the raid like Rez Timer, then the buff needs to affect the entire Raid.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Lostpenguins

[Lostpenguins]

Semantics, it can used serially. Rather than having a group wide 5min CD Debuff.

Not Semantics. If you think you'd the same DPS over 1 min with 4 Marauders using BT's back to back versus using all 4 at the same time, you are sorely mistaken, unless you have no idea how burn phases and on-use relics work.

[The_Rye_Guy]

I agree the Debuff would need to only affect the people that actually benefit from BT. Your vision of the Hybrid Tax is that Marauders and Snipers need to do something superior as they have no other roles to fill? In that case Hybrid Tax is a poor choice of words, Dedicated DPS Bonus would be more fitting.

BioWare believes them to be ahead of other classes in dps. I agree with them. A sweet buff like BT is fitting too. To make it so your group can use multiple BTs after each other only serves to reduce class diversity.

[Grimsblood]

I heal most of the time. I also played a marauder in the past. I do not agree that there is a Hybrid Tax, Dps is balanced for the most part. Concealment Operatives / Assassins will get the short end of the stick simply due to PvP Balance and Powertechs might be a little undertuned.

 

Marauder DPS is ok, Bloodthirst is ok, being able to bring multiple marauders for multiple BT's is NOT ok. Unless you have done actual Progression Raiding, where everyone is in the best gear and you can't youtube strategy videos, you are out of your element here. More Marauders is a real strategy that has been used to success in the past.

 

When you have more than enough skill players to fill your raid, you pick based on class. Marauders have an unfair advantage here. If BT did not stack each additional Marauder would be no more effective than any other dps. As it is now not only are marauders very good dps, they make everyone better.

 

Hello, still waiting for your response to this:

 

"Class A tops charts for 11/13 fights.

Class B doesn't rate close on 11/13 fights.

Class B is better on 2/13 fights.

Class B must be better then Class A!

 

..........I don't understand, I mean if Class B was soooo good to top charts on the "hard fights" Class B should be able to do the "easy" ones without a problem..............................."

 

I would also like to point out your statement in Red/Bold......I believe I showed you some top end parses of those classes out performing Marauders.......I am also interested in which guilds have actually employed the 4x Marauder Strat for progression.

[Korse]

- We're a progression guild.

2 - We don't stack Marauders as we don't need to. Sorry if you feel you need to.

3 - We used to have more than 1 8-man Ops group and when we did we would split the Marauders so that classes are split evenly. When we had to squeeze down to 1 do to attendance we didn't "stack Marauders". I'm really not sure what guilds do that.

 

Normally I don't resort to personal attacks, but you're being kind of an ******e. I pulled this from your guild website:

 

"This Sunday, we capped off a rather short and efficient progression cycle, killing off the last boss of Scum and Villany, Dread Master Styrak, in 8man Hard Mode after only 2 weeks of raiding (and leveling)." -- 2013/04/30 1:42 am

 

I know a lot of people use the term Progression, but we're using it in different ways. When we say progression, we mean clearing content on the day that it's released in old gear (Well, our sorc had a 69 hilt -- cheater). As for your third note, if all classes were balanced evenly with balanced damage/utility, you wouldn't have to split classes evenly amongst your raid groups. You could take anyone for consistent raid balance. 2 marauders in a raid group should be the same output as 0, right? Or were they going to tank later in the instance until you realized they can't? That just ruins everything. Stupid other classes with their fancy hybrid trees.

 

And, no, you don't get to dismiss the Hybrid Tax and hold onto your Utility Tax. Completely invalidates your argument because you're failing to see the whole scenario and just tunnel-vision what you want and try to mask it under "balance" and "fairness".

 

The hybrid tax isn't an issue. Each class utilizing its current role has a utility. That utility can be different than other classes, but should not be vastly inferior or superior. The argument that you "only" dps as a marauder or sniper is inconsequential. If you roll another character (or all of the other characters), it doesn't stop Marauders from having superior raid utility.

 

If you're saying that you want BT to put a debuff up on the raid like Rez Timer, then the buff needs to affect the entire Raid.

 

I have no problem with this. I believe it should work that way already.

[The_Rye_Guy]

Hello, still waiting for your response to this:

 

"Class A tops charts for 11/13 fights.

Class B doesn't rate close on 11/13 fights.

Class B is better on 2/13 fights.

Class B must be better then Class A!

 

..........I don't understand, I mean if Class B was soooo good to top charts on the "hard fights" Class B should be able to do the "easy" ones without a problem..............................."

 

I would also like to point out your statement in Red/Bold......I believe I showed you some top end parses of those classes out performing Marauders.......I am also interested in which guilds have actually employed the 4x Marauder Strat for progression.

 

Marauders do not need to be better at all fights for my view to be correct. I also said that i believe dps to be mostly balanced. Operative, Sin and PT are underrepresented. Is there the odd exceptional individual? sure. I will ignore the ease of manually editing logs to give false stats.

 

If in every fight that BW designs that has tight dps requirements, Marauders are on top that is telling. I do like the Marauders suck so they don't need a nerf argument though.

 

This thread is not suggesting neft marauders, It is recommending nerfing marauder stacking to roll Bloodthirst.

If you have never stacked Marauders or don't believe it is a real thing, then this will have 0 effect on you and you can carry on trolling the forums as usual.

[Korse]

Hello, still waiting for your response to this:

 

"Class A tops charts for 11/13 fights.

Class B doesn't rate close on 11/13 fights.

Class B is better on 2/13 fights.

Class B must be better then Class A!

 

..........I don't understand, I mean if Class B was soooo good to top charts on the "hard fights" Class B should be able to do the "easy" ones without a problem..............................."

 

I would also like to point out your statement in Red/Bold......I believe I showed you some top end parses of those classes out performing Marauders.......I am also interested in which guilds have actually employed the 4x Marauder Strat for progression.

 

Data from torparse is irrelevant because it's unreliable. All parser data is voluntary. I don't even know if Bioware tracks damage dealt broken down by class. Not everyone uploads their logs. Some people push dps over objectives, use consumables, use buggy double-proccing relics, have access to raid utility buffs others don't (or use an imbalanced number of them), etc. Also, I haven't tried it since I've never uploaded to that site but what's to stop me from adding extra lines to my combat log before I submit it? The data on torparse to me is a guide taken with a grain of salt.

[Lostpenguins]

Normally I don't resort to personal attacks, but you're being kind of an ******e. I pulled this from your guild website:

 

"This Sunday, we capped off a rather short and efficient progression cycle, killing off the last boss of Scum and Villany, Dread Master Styrak, in 8man Hard Mode after only 2 weeks of raiding (and leveling)." -- 2013/04/30 1:42 am

 

I know a lot of people use the term Progression, but we're using it in different ways. When we say progression, we mean clearing content on the day that it's released in old gear (Well, our sorc had a 69 hilt -- cheater)

1 - Reported

2 - Kind of hard to raid on the first day of release when we're running at 9-10 people in our guild and both of our tanks didn't do what 4 of the dps did and decided to speed level. In fact, our 2 tanks didn't want to level hardcore in beta, one of them wanted to enjoy the story on live. And that's okay. So the first week the game came out we didn't have our tanks... that kind of makes raiding week 1, a problem. And, as someone else pointed out, your version of progression is garbage too then because there were already youtube vids, online strats, and plenty of testing you could do on the servers. If you want real "progression" raiding, go to WoW where guilds don't clear Heroic Raids in the first day it's released. So stop defining what your version of "progression" because I don't think it applies to almost anyone in this game then since Rye defined it as no online videos.

As for your third note, if all classes were balanced evenly with balanced damage/utility, you wouldn't have to split classes evenly amongst your raid groups. You could take anyone for consistent raid balance. 2 marauders in a raid group should be the same output as 0, right? Or were they going to tank later in the instance until you realized they can't? That just ruins everything. Stupid other classes with their fancy hybrid trees.

We split classes simply for loot drops. If a non-token piece dropped that was str-dps and one group had both marauders and the other didn't, that'd be a waste of a drop.

 

Like I said, if DPS is equal, and you want to give more utility to the other melee classes, then give marauders the ability to respec to a heal or tank role. It's only fair.

 

The hybrid tax isn't an issue. Each class utilizing its current role has a utility. That utility can be different than other classes, but should not be vastly inferior or superior. The argument that you "only" dps as a marauder or sniper is inconsequential. If you roll another character (or all of the other characters), it doesn't stop Marauders from having superior raid utility.

Not an issue to you. Well, utility is not an issue to me. Don't you find it hypocritical that you want something changed simply because it bothers you, but casually dismiss something else that affects "balance and fairness" because it doesn't concern you? Edited May 16, 2013 by Lostpenguins

[Lostpenguins]

Marauders do not need to be better at all fights for my view to be correct. I also said that i believe dps to be mostly balanced. Operative, Sin and PT are underrepresented. Is there the odd exceptional individual? sure. I will ignore the ease of manually editing logs to give false stats.

You're trying to dismiss actual statistical values with general terms like "exceptional individuals" and trying to create the conspiracy of editing logs. If this is the case, why isn't there one exceptional marauder that's editing their logs if you're trying to give the notion that other classes have those type of players?

If in every fight that BW designs that has tight dps requirements, Marauders are on top that is telling. I do like the Marauders suck so they don't need a nerf argument though.

What fights are tight DPS checks in your option? Then go look at torparse logs and find where the Marauders are #1 consistently.

 

This thread is not suggesting neft marauders, It is recommending nerfing marauder stacking to roll Bloodthirst.

You want to nerf how a mechanic works for a class. That's nerfing a class. Secondly, if one Marauder's BT triggers a global debuff for 5 minutes so another Marauder can't use there's, and by the time they can, the original one can use it, then you're still nerfing because, now due to diminishing returns of BT, you're capping the # of Marauders you'd want to bring. Can you really not see that? That's like a dot going on a boss that no one else from that class can put up while the original dot is up? And the CD on the ability for the dot is the same as the duration of the dot.

If you have never stacked Marauders or don't believe it is a real thing, then this will have 0 effect on you and you can carry on trolling the forums as usual.

You want to nerf a class, are given statistical data that contradicts your statements, and basically refuse to look at the big picture just because you want what you want. Who's the one who's really trolling? Edited May 16, 2013 by Lostpenguins

[Lostpenguins]

Data from torparse is irrelevant because it's unreliable. All parser data is voluntary. I don't even know if Bioware tracks damage dealt broken down by class. Not everyone uploads their logs. Some people push dps over objectives, use consumables, use buggy double-proccing relics, have access to raid utility buffs others don't (or use an imbalanced number of them), etc. Also, I haven't tried it since I've never uploaded to that site but what's to stop me from adding extra lines to my combat log before I submit it? The data on torparse to me is a guide taken with a grain of salt.

Okay... so where's your data that makes you believe otherwise? So far, it's just a feeling you have. I'd go with statistical data over your limited amount of experience (limited to your raids and your raids only). It's like playing Halo with my friends and beating all of them. In my little world, I'm the best Halo player. Then I go online and play against a much larger pool of people... and I win 60% of the time. And then there are guys who win 90% of the time. I would say they're better players than me. But you're saying that those statistics are shady and I should focus on the fact that I was 100% amongst my friends...

 

Do you know how statistics work?

[Grimsblood]

Marauders do not need to be better at all fights for my view to be correct. I also said that i believe dps to be mostly balanced. Operative, Sin and PT are underrepresented. Is there the odd exceptional individual? sure. I will ignore the ease of manually editing logs to give false stats.

 

If in every fight that BW designs that has tight dps requirements, Marauders are on top that is telling. I do like the Marauders suck so they don't need a nerf argument though.

 

This thread is not suggesting neft marauders, It is recommending nerfing marauder stacking to roll Bloodthirst.

If you have never stacked Marauders or don't believe it is a real thing, then this will have 0 effect on you and you can carry on trolling the forums as usual.

 

I was afraid you were going to dodge the point. In order for a Marauders Bloodthirst to become OP as far as utility goes a few things need to happen:

 

1) All AC's must be doing the same dps over the entirety of a single target fight (Special AoE instances not to be accounted for). This includes the armor crack and executes for everyone.

2) The use of the ability does not negatively impact the groups or individuals dps

3) It should be possible to stack the buff to increase output to 30%, 45% and 60%

 

The think about all this is, none of the above can take place....whatsoever. Throw in the fact that Fury build up will be nerfed, dps lowered on an individual basis, raid dps can not achieve the OPness. Bloodthirst is a nice buff for burn phases, but it is by no means the only reason to bring a certain mdps over another. Utility is balanced in this game. I will say again, in choosing one class over another the end that argument goes to personal preference and not imbalance.

 

@ the minor point of the bold/red, if you are stating a claim to something...have evidence to back it up. I will even be patient enough for you to pull your best 4 Marauders out of MoX and let them see if they can beat their previous records on fights AND have faster kill times then your groups usually have.

 

 

Data from torparse is irrelevant because it's unreliable. All parser data is voluntary. I don't even know if Bioware tracks damage dealt broken down by class. Not everyone uploads their logs. Some people push dps over objectives, use consumables, use buggy double-proccing relics, have access to raid utility buffs others don't (or use an imbalanced number of them), etc. Also, I haven't tried it since I've never uploaded to that site but what's to stop me from adding extra lines to my combat log before I submit it? The data on torparse to me is a guide taken with a grain of salt.

 

It is reliable, inspect the log view for see what actions are going on. You find an error where someone Dr'd the log, you know it is false. Move on.

 

As far as the data being Voluntary, sure I can get on board with that. However, if one wants to say that Bloodlust is OP due to it's output....well............you kinda sorta need numbers to figure that out, not guess's.

[znihilist]

In other words, if you had one player with all melee classes that were equally geared, why would you want him to bring his operative, assassin, powertech, or juggernaut?

20% armor reduction from the jugg thank you!

[The_Rye_Guy]

And you ignore Styrak and Golden Fury, where Marauders dominate like no other class does on any other boss.

[Grimsblood]

And you ignore Styrak and Golden Fury, where Marauders dominate like no other class does on any other boss.

 

And why do they dominate in these two fights only? They have Bloodthirst in the others..................................... Not exactly an arguing point there. As a hole, they do NOT outperform by a margin that should lead one to the nerf hammer.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Grimsblood

[Korse]

Okay... so where's your data that makes you believe otherwise? So far, it's just a feeling you have. I'd go with statistical data over your limited amount of experience (limited to your raids and your raids only). It's like playing Halo with my friends and beating all of them. In my little world, I'm the best Halo player. Then I go online and play against a much larger pool of people... and I win 60% of the time. And then there are guys who win 90% of the time. I would say they're better players than me. But you're saying that those statistics are shady and I should focus on the fact that I was 100% amongst my friends...

 

Do you know how statistics work?

 

My personal opinion of meters has nothing to do with the argument about marauder damage/utility being imbalanced with the other melee dps options. I can hop in any raid instance with any melee class character and test the utility and damage for myself. Marauder is imbalanced.

 

I give up. I'll try the general internet strategy.

 

Marauders are imbalanced. The internet told me so! I have no utility because I can't tank (***) even though I have better cooldowns than Powertech tanks (stack 900 def to WIN!!!) It's not fair I can't change to healing and tank because then I could go in group finder queues, although everyone there is a better player than me. I'm not ranged, but I can leap 30m and break the cc target on accident (oops, it's hard). I read on the internet that this one guy in an aoe fight, he does more damage than me. I don't think that's fair, they need to nerf him. Why can't I have perma-stealth? The fact that I can only stealth for 4s which functions as a threat drop, target break, and movement speed increase isn't the same as perma-stealth. Nevermind that I have a unique aggro drop. I need a guard. Learning how to chain bloodthirst is hard because I don't talk to my raid group. I need a guard. I don't tell them I'm about to bloodthirst. The other marauders should feel it (with the force, duh!) If I actually told them I was about to use bloodthirst, and they had their berserk stacks ready (pst, I need a guard), and then when that one was done we built stacks again and then timed it all together aga--- no, that's hard. And it doesn't make SENSE. How can four separate timed bursts ever be better than one? I need a guard. Too bad I can't start a fight with 30 stacks of fury already. I need a guard. I can't stealth rez, why not take an entire group that can stealth rez. Why are we dying often enough that we need multiple stealth rezzes? I need a guard. What aggro drop? That's a pvp skill.

[Lostpenguins]

And you ignore Styrak and Golden Fury, where Marauders dominate like no other class does on any other boss.

And you ignore that nerfing a specific class ability is literally nerfing the class. If a second Marauder can never use his BT then by your philosophy where you'll take the class and not the player, why take a second Marauder, ever?

 

And you can't say it's because they are highest dps, because that has been proven wrong. Unless you bring the 2nd Marauder for Styrak and GF, but then you'll make him sit every other boss right, right?

[Lostpenguins]

My personal opinion of meters has nothing to do with the argument about marauder damage/utility being imbalanced with the other melee dps options. I can hop in any raid instance with any melee class character and test the utility and damage for myself. Marauder is imbalanced.

 

I give up. I'll try the general internet strategy.

Once again, you're going back to your own experiences and trying to say that has more relevance than statisical data. Remember when people complained that PvP map cycling is broken because they were getting some maps multiple times. Here's BW's response: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6200556#post6200556

The key part is:

We queried the data an examined the current streakiness of a random sample of players participating in Warzones currently and plotted the probability of certain streaks occurring against the random probabilistic model. The actual data is on par with basic random chance. Recent Warzone players have had a little over 15% chance of repeating the same Warzone compared to the assumed 20%, and subsequent streaks probabilities are also on par with random chance.

 

Does this mean that you won’t get a streak of the same Warzones? No! In fact, of the sample of 250,000 Warzones we examined, there were 35 streaks of 6, but this is truly the exception rather than the rule and it falls within the confines of the design model.

 

Also we examined the current trends of number of Warzone instances being generated by the system pre and post ROTHC launch and we have almost the identical number of Warzone instances being generated across Warzone types throughout the whole time frame. This helped confirm that, overall, there isn’t any one Warzone being “favored” over time.

Which basically says that your individual experience melts when compared to overall statistical data. You may flip a coin and may have gotten heads 10 times in a row, but you are getting mad when other people show you, clearly, that it's still a 50-50 chance. You're the one who keeps saying, "No, heads comes up more! I know it because that's what happens to me!"

 

Do you not see the lack of logic and rationality in your posts when you do this?

 

Our guild will typically use sorc pulls, sniper bubbles, saber reflect, and such. We don't force ourselves to bring a certain class, but we maximize the classes we have by doing things that they and they alone can do.

 

Btw, it's already been shown that, in most boss fights, Marauders are not top melee dps. If that's the case, why do you want to nerf the utility of a class that already isn't #1 melee dps?

[DarthBuckets]

In my opinion, Bloodthirst could use some re-balancing / re-structuring.

 

In addition to his or her own damage and assuming all DPS being equal, a single Marauder contributes additional damage to the raid due to Bloodthirst (not counting the significant added benefits of controlling it for burn phases / CD stacking). This damage is attributed to the Marauder's groupmates in parses, but it is really contributed by the Marauder. If DPS contribution is the only balancing factor, then Marauders should be parsing a certain % behind the other classes, equal to the DPS that Bloodthirst provided. If there is a DPS balance issue in the Marauder's favor, Bloodthirst accentuates the discrepancy by at least that %.

 

Multiple Marauders tripping over each others' Fury could be a problem if you hyperbolically bring ONLY Marauders, but there is no appreciable downside to bringing at least one Marauder per 4 players. At the very least, I think 2 Marauders per 4-man group would be totally viable.

 

I'm not sold that a "Hybrid tax" is important at all in PVE. With the exception of the value of using 2 vs 3 tanks on some fights in 16man, I don't see top tier players switching all that much mid-run (especially with the way gear acquisition is now). If role-hopping is required, they need gear (especially the DPS -> tank swap). On top of that, this game is extremely alt friendly. Most off-spec gear collected can be transferred to alts via Legacy gear. With the exception of acquired Ear/Implants/Relic (and some base Armorings/Barrels for off-hands), a character with an alt with a different role offers the exact same "hybrid" utility that a character capable of respeccing between encounters does. PVP is a different matter, as being able to respec mid-warzone to a different role in order to counter the enemy team or map is of valid usefulness.

 

In combat, in non-trivial PVE encounters, if a DPS Sorc is off-healing or a Pyro is off-tanking adds (which doesn't really happen - DPS taunting the boss in PVE isn't really a valid tactic / help in most cases), I would consider that utility. I would say that a "Utility Tax" should definitely be factored into PVE class balance, but out-of-combat options and things that do not work during non-trivial PVE encounters should not.

 

The important part of discussing Bloodthirst are the following:

 

1. Is Bloodthirst mandatory (or greatly beneficial with no downsides)?

(I understand that the word "Mandatory" can be subjective here - the current content is all easy and a buff is only really appreciated if an encounter's tuning pushes up against the efficacy of a given group).

 

If so, a single role / single class out of 8 bringing it is a comp problem that affects class balance, operations comp, and representation in progression.

 

On top of that, multiple Bloodthirsts can be used in a given group sequentially to added benefit. There really aren't many buffs/debuffs left like that other than Sniper's shield, but a defensive buff is only valuable if you really need it, whereas damage output is always desirable.

 

If fights get tuned in nightmare to require DPS in BIS firing on all cylinders to make Enrage, the additional DPS that Marauders bring via Bloodlust can and will make a difference, skewing group comp. 16man NM tanks pre-nerf is probably the best example of this.

 

2. Do Marauders do appropriately tuned damage and provide appropriate utility relative to other classes in light of the great DPS contribution that Bloodthirst provides?

 

If Marauders are on top of the charts *and* they boost the other DPS via Bloodthirst *and* the other DPS classes don't have additional utility / contributing factors that make them situationally preferable over Marauders, then there is a PVE class balance issue.

 

I don't think Bloodthirst needs to be removed or trivialized. I think it is a worthwhile mechanic and a good "macro" gameplay element for a group attempting an Operation. However, its current incarnation makes Marauder stacking a net gain over other comps with no apparent downsides. My suggestions would be the following:

* Give a similar effect to at least one other class so that Marauders are not "required" in every Operation.

* Make it a raid wide buff.

* Put a debuff on the raid after use to avoid stacking multiple Bloodthirsts in a given time period.

* If Marauders do an appreciably lower amount of damage relative to other classes from the loss of a scalable Bloodthirst, give them a minor buff to compensate.

 

I also don't think Marauders need to be nerfed unless hard data proves a discrepancy, although re-structuring Bloodthirst would be seen as a nerf by many. I don't have metrics other than parses and my individual group, but *if* there is a discrepancy in damage output, I would like to see additional utility/toys given to the specs without them, or their base DPS brought up to compensate for their lack of things like Bloodthirst. In evaluating usefulness of classes in PVE, there is a pecking order right now for most people I've spoken to:

1. Snipers and Marauders on top

2. Other Ranged - Sorc and Merc - decent damage, some fights prefer ranged (although Darvannis and Asation don't really have many issues)

3. Powertech - decent damage, still represented because they were single-target top dogs pre-2.0, no real utility in PVE

4. Leftovers - DPS Jugg, DPS Op, DPS Sin - underrepresented and no significant utility in PVE

 

That being said, balance is "close enough" to be pretty good in PVE right now, especially since we are without a legitimate progression tier until they implement Nightmare TFB.

 

In my opinion, Bloodthirst could use some tweaks though.

Edited May 16, 2013 by DarthBuckets

[oofalong]

Do you know how statistics work?

 

In order to draw valid conclusions using statistics, I think you need good data. I don't think you can call uploaded logs from Torparse good data as it does not tell the entire story of a raid or boss kill. Further, you can not ensure it wasn't doctored. And, you don't have every raid member's data to analyze. Still, I believe it is directionally accurate. And directionally, it indicates that Marauders/Sentinels are the best melee DPS, and maybe the best DPS.

 

I come to this conclusion by examining the fights where enrage time is more challenging such as 8m HM Golden Fury and HM Dread Stryak. I think it makes sense to examine these fights only to figure out what the best DPS classes are because you need the best DPS in these fights. (Thinking back to my first paragraph, I would not say this conclusive, but you were the one who suggested that DPS rankings from boss fights was the appropriate measure.)

 

OK, so now we have established that Marauders/Sentinels offer the best damage in the fights where enrage is a real issue. How do they compare where enrage is not as tight? Using the same measurement, we see that they are not necessarily the best DPS option in these fights. But, the question is are the liability? The have sufficient defensive abilities and other utility such as Predation/Transcendence. Clearly they do not offer healing capabilities or taunts, but in theory your DPS should never have to do this even if it makes some fights/phases easier. The answer is no Marauders/Sentinels are not a liability in these other fights.

 

Given all of this, doesn't it make sense to stack four Marauders/Sentinels if your objective is to have the easiest time killing the hardest bosses?

 

I am sick and tired of this argument. It is a L2P issue with these other class. Here is some evidence for you taken from 8 man HM records on Torparse:

 

#1 on Torparse for Writhing Horror: Operative http://www.torparse.com/a/227519/9 <-- Seriously ***, no AoE class beating it? Think about it.

...

#7, 12 and 13 on Torparse for Styrak: Juggernaut, Operative and Operative http://www.torparse.com/a/202973/38, http://www.torparse.com/a/203625/37 and http://www.torparse.com/a/213255/7 (The Marauders legitimately have the other melee classes beat in this fight....what is that 1 out of 12!?)

 

Incidentally, you realize the vast majority of the logs you cited had their damage boosted by one if not two Bloodthirst/Inspiration during those fights?

Edited May 16, 2013 by oofalong