PTs are worthless DPS in operations

[ozzzo]

Its really nice to see arguments like this:

 

1. "i just killed 2 lowlevel mobs, the spec is fully viable "

2. "just learn how to use your class"

3. "its goog to see some challenge at last" etc etc

 

All this is really laughable. This game is all about balance. Lets say any spec is a sum of

"main ability - single target or AOE dps for dps, mitigation and aggro for tanks etc"+

"utility - a variety of helpful self+group abilities"+

"suvivalability".

AP is one of my favorite specs with a lot of fiery damage and mobility. Its not really viable for PVE now.

very bad survivalability for a melee class,

worst gap closing,

no burst damage,

no dps buff below 30% target health,

no heals or cures,

lowest benefit from armor debuff,

no CC,

worst new talent and tier 7 skills,

no group buffs etc. etc. etc.

And now our primary ability DPS is one of the worst. Still better than shadow dps (yay!), but with much less utility. How did this happen? Synthetic tests may show some satisfactory numbers, but in real fight all is much worse. Maybe the developers team is not using this spec and just nerfed it to avoid overpowering and additional testing . Its not a direct nerf, but all other classes got a good buff, so its a significant nerf.

[Brunner_Venda]

The only thing I'll argue with you on is AP PT is survivabiliry.

 

We get: rebraced armor. 30% less damage from AOE (lol smash) or while stunned (lol cc). Best ability ever.

We get rebounder. Energy shield is up more, and the redoubt does proc all the time.

We get heavy armor. Not much, but I'll take it.

We get the kolto overload. I use it when fighting 1v1 and I'm losing. It has gained me many a win against DOT classes.

We get longer hydraulic overrides. I know this falls under mobility, but there are Far too many slows and roots in this stupid game. This helps you get away.

 

What we don't have, is damage. 15 second CD's on immolate and rail are just stupid, especially when other classes can do 8k or more every six seconds. PFT is supposed to make up for that, but only healers behind force shield ever sit still- and our stun is on a ridiculous long CD. So you can't make anyone sit still for long, and only healers, clickers, and keyboard turning bads ever get hit by it. AP cannot kill healers, so they don't care.

 

If pyro had all of this, it would actually be a little more viable.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Brunner_Venda

[Nezyrworks]

Link spec? http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301bZrsMrobRMZfhMbdRr.3 ?

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMhZrsMrobRMZfGbbzo.3

[Nezyrworks]

The only thing I'll argue with you on an AP PT is survivabiliry.

 

We get: rebraced armor. 30% less damage from AOE (lol smash) or while stunned (lol cc). Best ability ever.

We get rebounder. Energy shield is up more, and the redoubt does proc all the time.

We get heavy armor. Not much, but I'll take it.

We get the kolto overload. I use it when fighting 1v1 and I'm losing. It has gained me many a win against DOT classes.

We get longer hydraulic overrides. I know this falls under mobility, but there are Far too many slows and roots in this stupid game. This helps you get away.

 

What we don't have, is damage. 15 second CD's on immolate and rail are just stupid, especially when other classes can do 8k or more every six seconds. PFT is supposed to make up for that, but only healers behind force shield ever sit still- and our stun is on a ridiculous long CD. So you can't make anyone sit still for long, and only healers, clickers, and keyboard turning bads ever get hit by it. AP cannot kill healers, so they don't care.

 

Excuse me but what this have to do with OPS damage?

 

Wrong thread mate.

 

Whine about PVP elsewere

[Nezyrworks]

worst gap closing,

no burst damage,

no dps buff below 30% target health,

no heals or cures,

lowest benefit from armor debuff,

no CC....

 

As per my post above. Wrong thread mate. Read the titles with comprehension.

[Sardonyyx]

Boohoo, boohoo! Thats all you have to say?

 

People, stop whining and start thinking. EVEN WITH THE BUGGED Ion pulse - this guy makes this:

http://www.torparse.com/a/193728/time/1366928034/1366928416/0/Overview

 

All of you wish powertech would stay 3 button idiotproof class.

WRONG!

 

Learn to adapt and start trying and thinking by yourself.

 

Powertechs/Vanguards are still beasts, but they are not 3 button class anymore. Yes, our 36 points assault/tactics build makes no sense which is a pain, but:

 

we will not tire we will not falter and we will not fail!

 

Almost 40%crit makes me think that was just a lucky parse ,if anyone gets a huge amount of crits they can do ridiculous damage. Unfortunately the average damage for snipers and marauders is around there. You cattle me there's some deeper meaning to the AP spec it still isn't on par damage wise, bottom line. PT is not valuable in a raid, they don't have anything good about them any more, especially when other classes provide better utility, and do more damage.

[I_Sithed_MyPants]

Boohoo, boohoo! Thats all you have to say?

 

People, stop whining and start thinking. EVEN WITH THE BUGGED Ion pulse - this guy makes this:

http://www.torparse.com/a/193728/time/1366928034/1366928416/0/Overview

 

All of you wish powertech would stay 3 button idiotproof class.

WRONG!

 

Learn to adapt and start trying and thinking by yourself.

 

Powertechs/Vanguards are still beasts, but they are not 3 button class anymore. Yes, our 36 points assault/tactics build makes no sense which is a pain, but:

 

we will not tire we will not falter and we will not fail!

 

Ok so he did some decent dps. But what else did the bring to the ops, ulility wise?

Did he have a raid wide dmg reduction shield? No.

Did he have a group wide dmg increase buff? No.

Did he have a group wide movement speed increase buff? No.

Did he provide an armor debuff? No.

Edited May 21, 2013 by I_Sithed_MyPants

[Hizoka]

Almost 40%crit makes me think that was just a lucky parse ,if anyone gets a huge amount of crits they can do ridiculous damage. Unfortunately the average damage for snipers and marauders is around there. You cattle me there's some deeper meaning to the AP spec it still isn't on par damage wise, bottom line. PT is not valuable in a raid, they don't have anything good about them any more, especially when other classes provide better utility, and do more damage.

 

nothing about an 6 minute parse is lucky... the longer the parse the less RNG takes effect... no wonder you think PTs are bad you lack simple understanding.

 

good AP players match and beat maras and snipers... just because someone like you cannot do it doesn't mean people who are actually good at the game cannot do it.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Hizoka

[Nezyrworks]

Almost 40%crit makes me think that was just a lucky parse ,if anyone gets a huge amount of crits they can do ridiculous damage. Unfortunately the average damage for snipers and marauders is around there. You cattle me there's some deeper meaning to the AP spec it still isn't on par damage wise, bottom line. PT is not valuable in a raid, they don't have anything good about them any more, especially when other classes provide better utility, and do more damage.

 

First of all its NOT strict AP. Yes it uses prototype flamethrower, but it also utilizes the Railshot reset from Particle Accelerator.

 

You were speaking strictly of PVP features.

 

40% Crit is not a luck in parse over 6 minutes long.

 

Yes i can agree that Vanguards/Powertech utility is far from the one possessed by sniper or sentinel, BUT let me remind you that those are DPS only classes. Look at other can-tank classes. Do they bring awesome group utility to the ops?

[Nezyrworks]

Ok so he did some decent dps. But what else did the bring to the ops, ulility wise?

Did he have a raid wide dmg reduction shield? No.

Did he have a group wide dmg increase buff? No.

Did he have a group wide movement speed increase buff? No.

Did he provide an armor debuff? No.

 

As posted above. You are mixing pure dps classes with can-tank classes. Look at assassin and jugg?!

[Marb]

nothing about an 6 minute parse is lucky... the longer the parse the less RNG takes effect... no wonder you think PTs are bad you lack simple understanding.

 

good AP players match and beat maras and snipers... just because someone like you cannot do it doesn't mean people who are actually good at the game cannot do it.

 

While I wouldn't accuse anyone of log trimming, it is becoming more common as it is a way to pick out the best 6 mins of a larger overall parse, as a way of showing the higher end of a spec's potential. 40% crit with the spec that player was using IS unusual, but not impossible. Results like that are not going to be typical in HM Styrak.

 

That was also not a full ap BH, but a full hybrid.

[Marb]

As posted above. You are mixing pure dps classes with can-tank classes. Look at assassin and jugg?!

 

I'm going to go offtopic here, but there aren't hybrid taxes in this game. If an AC has a heal or tank tree, it shouldn't have any impact at all on the output of their dps skill trees. All dps specs should be within a 5% spread of each-other, but its never turned out that way for one reason or another. As far as balancing goes, there is no such thing as a "pure" dps class. Raid utility doesn't tax sniper and maras dps, so why should having the ability to respec to a different role have any impact at all on those classes dps?

Edited May 21, 2013 by Marb

[Nezyrworks]

While I wouldn't accuse anyone of log trimming, it is becoming more common as it is a way to pick out the best 6 mins of a larger overall parse, as a way of showing the higher end of a spec's potential. 40% crit with the spec that player was using IS unusual, but not impossible. Results like that are not going to be typical in HM Styrak.

 

That was also not a full ap BH, but a full hybrid.

 

The crit is increased due to 15% HIB/RS bonus crit from Eliminator set bonus.

I usualy get same overall crit due to that buff.

 

I'm going to go offtopic here, but there aren't hybrid taxes in this game. If an AC has a heal or tank tree, it shouldn't have any impact at all on the output of their dps skill trees. All dps specs should be within a 5% spread of each-other, but its never turned out that way for one reason or another. As far as balancing goes, there is no such thing as a "pure" dps class. Raid utility doesn't tax sniper and maras dps, so why should having the ability to respec to a different role have any impact at all on those classes dps?

 

But it does im affraid. Compare Assassin and Jugg? All can-tank classes bring little to no group utility to the ops.

 

The taxation was made in 2.0 to separate full dps from can-tank and force the second ones to become tanks.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Nezyrworks

[Nezyrworks]

<double post> Edited May 21, 2013 by Nezyrworks

[Marb]

The crit is increased due to 15% HIB/RS bonus crit from Eliminator set bonus.

I usualy get same overall crit due to that buff.

 

Right that would make sense. I didn't think having that many 63 armorings would be worth giving up the extra power, when the difference in set bonuses only ever made a small difference to dps pre 2.0 anyway.

[Marb]

But it does im affraid. Compare Assassin and Jugg? All can-tank classes bring little to no group utility to the ops.

 

The taxation was made in 2.0 to separate full dps from can-tank and force the second ones to become tanks.

 

I admit that it does seem that way, but I would put that down to bad balancing and foresight on the devs part rather then an evil master plan.

[Nezyrworks]

Right that would make sense. I didn't think having that many 63 armorings would be worth giving up the extra power, when the difference in set bonuses only ever made a small difference to dps pre 2.0 anyway.

 

That would be an obvious explanation, but i would say those are conqueror armorings.

 

Edit: I just had checked and yes, it's 54% crit which means he added another 15% from PVP Eliminator.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Nezyrworks

[Griad]

Ok so he did some decent dps. But what else did the bring to the ops, ulility wise?

Did he have a raid wide dmg reduction shield? No.

Did he have a group wide dmg increase buff? No.

Did he have a group wide movement speed increase buff? No.

Did he provide an armor debuff? No.

 

Operative dont have any raidwide buff or debuff.

Assassins dont have any raidwide buff or debuff.

 

However ops are now very good in lethality spec, assassins are very good in deception, dps wise.

But madness and concealment are not nearly as good to me it seems like alot of the classes which can spec into dps/other have a weak tree

[Brunner_Venda]

Link spec? http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301bZrsMrobRMZfhMbdRr.3 ?

 

If you guys can find a way to work in stabilized armor (and rebounder but I doubt that) into this spec, you might have a viable PVP template. Stabilized armor takes the edge off of smash and all of the ridiculous CC.

 

It doesn't have thermal det or immolate, but does keep PFT. PFT is probably the most damaging move AP gets, especially if you kick in explosive fuel and crit every tick.

 

It keeps the CGC dot and PPA proc with rail, uses firebug for the crit increase, with the elim set that makes up for the missing immolate.

 

I like it, and may even try this out and switch out enough my combat tech suit for the elim bonus.

[Marb]

I'm wondering if it would be better to drop firebug for hyper fuel and maxing steely resolve. 30% surge bonus on railshot and flameburst vs 1% aim and 6% increase in all fire damage. Taking into account the mainstat your already loosing by going for the conqueror armorings.

[Nezyrworks]

If you guys can find a way to work in stabilized armor (and rebounder but I doubt that) into this spec, you might have a viable PVP template. Stabilized armor takes the edge off of smash and all of the ridiculous CC.

 

It doesn't have thermal det or immolate, but does keep PFT. PFT is probably the most damaging move AP gets, especially if you kick in explosive fuel and crit every tick.

 

It keeps the CGC dot and PPA proc with rail, uses firebug for the crit increase, with the elim set that makes up for the missing immolate.

 

I like it, and may even try this out and switch out enough my combat tech suit for the elim bonus.

 

This is a PVP defensive hybrid spec you are refering

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301ZrsrrobRRzMZfhrbzR.3

 

Tthis is currently best performing PVE dps spec (switch Plasma slow to 2 points in endurance) and yes i use it for PVP:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMhZrsMrobRMZfhrbzo.3

 

As you can see - Firebug is not needed in both to be good. Even without Firebug/Assault Trooper, the build is getting nice results.

 

Utilizing both PFT and PPA gives you some neat moves (most of the time you will welcome new threat with RS, then PFT and then finish off with PPA'ed proc RS.

 

Try them

Edited May 21, 2013 by Nezyrworks

[Brunner_Venda]

The defensive setup comes with torque boosters, which is a must have in PVP.

 

The slows and roots in yoyr typical match aren't even funny.

[Trancedzero]

I just wanted to test out the pve spec and I **** my self on the single target damage I was sustaining a 2.7k till a friend whispered me, how ever I want some posts on this spec detailing rotation if possible this could be it.

 

 

edit::

further testing reveals 2 points in firebug makes you lose damage on a parse for some reason talent has to be bugged 1 point is better than 2 by 200 dps. more testing rain of fire seems to grant its bonus with one point, not likely you will have these in a hybrid spec but we should all know the bugs.

 

the pve hybrid spec Found here seems to have one major weakness, which is also its greatest strength. the trick to this is to get the free rocket punch at low heat to do the following combo to use no heat for a short period and apply extra dots

 

retractable > incendiary missile > rocket punch > rail shot

 

that combo is the true money maker of this build the free rocket punch and the free/-8 heat from rail shot + duration of cast time, make all these abilitys pretty much free, it requires the free rocket punch so if your rocket punch is free use that incendiary missiles

 

i didnt find the flamethrower bit that nice i guess you could choose flamethrower or sweep as your aoe of choice, with out rain of fire seems a no brainer.

 

feel free to check all this out i am stoked finally got a sweet as spec and im ready to beat the **** out of my raid team once again wahahahahaha

 

 

edit2:: more testing is showing even tho combustible is listed as a burn it is infact a bleed that said retractable blade loses its luster

Edited May 21, 2013 by Trancedzero

[Sardonyyx]

nothing about an 6 minute parse is lucky... the longer the parse the less RNG takes effect... no wonder you think PTs are bad you lack simple understanding.

 

good AP players match and beat maras and snipers... just because someone like you cannot do it doesn't mean people who are actually good at the game cannot do it.

 

 

 

Dude prove it... I'm so tired of this..

[Sardonyyx]

First of all its NOT strict AP. Yes it uses prototype flamethrower, but it also utilizes the Railshot reset from Particle Accelerator.

 

You were speaking strictly of PVP features.

 

40% Crit is not a luck in parse over 6 minutes long.

 

Yes i can agree that Vanguards/Powertech utility is far from the one possessed by sniper or sentinel, BUT let me remind you that those are DPS only classes. Look at other can-tank classes. Do they bring awesome group utility to the ops?

 

No mention of pvp things in that post. This is about pve.