Tython lovers side quest *obvious spoilers*

[SithKoriandr]

Well on my Sage and Shadow I reported them. On my Sentinel I let them go their own way. I mean it would be quite hypocritical of me to report them while my Sentinel is having a grand time with Doc And yes earning Dark Side points along the way.

 

Well, she wouldn't have gotten to Doc at that point Time elapsed! She put on a year or two!

[Lodril]

 

That is a really great encapsulation of why love and attachment are forbidden. You are absolutely right.... they are more willing to protect and fight for what they love. That right there is the exact line of thought that led to Darth Vader. Pride was a fault shared by many of the Jedi, so that wasn't the source of his fall. Anakin's anger grew directly from the things he loved, from seeing his loves endangered, and fearing for them. Every bad thing that came from Darth Vader originated with that love.

 

And THAT is why the only good option when dealing with force sensitives who refuse to obey the Jedi code is to kick them out and refuse to train them into the living WMDs that are Jedi knights. That, or get your own version, one dedicated to galactic civilization, to eradicate them and leave no survivors.

[SithKoriandr]

They are not completely dissimilar from the Sith as they would have people believe.

 

Failing the trials of the Jedi Order and You basically become a lifelong prisoner of the order (force sensitive? too bad for you lol!!) serving in some menial capacity for the rest of your life, knowing you are neither good enough to be a Jedi nor allowed to make it anywhere else.

 

 

However, this can be avoided if you are

A) Already a Jedi,

B) Your master covers for you. or

C) powerful.

 

For B - And the Jedi Order becomes yet another good ol boys' club where WHO you know is better than WHAT you know. Case in point: Go full darkside on Tython and while you are admonished for being an epic douche, you get the job done and are promoted, much in part due to your master vouching for you.

 

For A and C - See: countless Jedi who have gone nuts and yet were welcomed into the order with open arms. Let's see, Tol Braga was admitted back [if you go that route] and worse of all the Jedi Master actually trIES to recruit SITH LORDS.

 

So basically, your chances of becoming a Jedi are better if you are a murdering Sith Lord who has a change of heart than if you are raised in the order and simply have a harder-than-average time of it.

 

 

It's a train wreck. I wish i could have told the couple that if they really wanted to be Jedi, go join the Sith and defect later, their odds were way better.

 

Arent there force sensitives you can let go free who the Jedi Order is just moving away from Imperials (emp side quest...you can also capture them) and they dont become menial task workers for the Jedi?

 

What you seem to be refering to is the one Jedi Padawan who can't lift the boulder.

[SithKoriandr]

That is a really great encapsulation of why love and attachment are forbidden. You are absolutely right.... they are more willing to protect and fight for what they love. That right there is the exact line of thought that led to Darth Vader. Pride was a fault shared by many of the Jedi, so that wasn't the source of his fall. Anakin's anger grew directly from the things he loved, from seeing his loves endangered, and fearing for them. Every bad thing that came from Darth Vader originated with that love.

 

And THAT is why the only good option when dealing with force sensitives who refuse to obey the Jedi code is to kick them out and refuse to train them into the living WMDs that are Jedi knights. That, or get your own version, one dedicated to galactic civilization, to eradicate them and leave no survivors.

 

Unless they train on their own, which some seem to have done, and become much more dangerous.

 

Not to mention, since they've let that rule slip from time to time, Im not sure it's always that dangerous. I think it depends on the Jedi. Basically a jerk will be a jerk. And Anakin had issues long before becoming a Padawan.

[Helig]

I dunno, when I was a kid I knew some adults who were idiots.

When you're a kid/teen, everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. Ironically, the reverse is true in 99% of the time. Even considering the fact that *some* adults are indeed idiots, we simply cannot ignore that it's true for *most* kids/teens, as well.

That's pretty much what the Masters said they would have to do. Force them to choose between renouncing their relationship and agree to not go near each other, or leave the order.

Eventually, yes. But how they would go on about it isn't as horrible as you're trying to present. Also, there's always the choice thing - they can always leave the Order if they consider their affair to be more important than the Jedi way of life.

 

Let me stress it once more. Jedi life is not for everyone. Those who join the Jedi (or stay with them) for the wrong reasons ("want superpowers", "want to fight better", "want to be a hero") usually end up reevaluating their approach in order to progress, end up leaving because it is too hard, or fall to the Dark Side.

 

I said nothing about envy, and nothing about their parts not working. I said that there's reasons to think, based on their comments, that they were behaving in a reactionary way, and also every reason to believe that they don't have a mature outlook on relationships or even the realities of most people.

That's the extended variant of the "how can they know anything" argument that always pops up in this kind of discussion, and is a fallacy. Also, out of post context.

 

And no, you aren't looking at the greater picture. The people in question are their Padawans. They know their personalities well. They know what dangers they're exposing themselves (and everyone around them) to. Tython is not high school. Tython is a monastery. Jedi training isn't college. It's hard, spiritual work which is disrupted by such distractions - especially at the early stages of training.

 

Why am I so confident about this? Fictional Jedi training is based on Eastern martial arts and spiritual practices. I practice Eastern martial arts. Srs business-like. Muscles can only take you so far. Mental discipline, clean senses, fine-tuning every angle, every form of your body for optimal leverage, optimal power transition, optimal balance, both static and dynamic. It is hard work. Real hard work. Downright painful and off-putting, if approached wrong. This work cannot be done if your thoughts are occupied with your girlfriend. You either suffer through training instead of benefiting from it - and break, eventually, or you abolish distractions.

I'm actually asexual, and I know full well that I'm in no place to give advice or talk people through their romantic problems. It's a patently absurd assertion that somehow without having the necessary life experience someone becomes an expert on certain issues by virtue of what age they are.

All that matters is how one understands themselves and other people. Unless it's technical knowledge, of course. The *technical* technical knowledge.

Where the Jedi fail is that they don't provide people the tools to solve their own problems and avoid the pitfalls, they just flat out ban everything that scares them.

The Jedi provide all the tools needed. Discipline, meditation, training, counselling. Stand for an hour under a cold waterfall and tell me what you think of.

 

Fear? Hardly. Avoid pitfalls? No they don't. Both, Jedi training under a Master, and Jedi trials have a lot of pitfalls. But those pitfalls are met in a controlled environment to limit the damage. The Jedi don't "ban everything that scares them". They abolish everything that is not necessary and what distracts them from Jedi training. Training under a Master is highly personalized. The Master often chooses to test their Padawan with "forbidden" temptations - be it the Dark Side or romance. And Masters can be very crafty with this.

 

Jedi trials are harrowing (nothing like the fluff version that's given to us by BW). Used to be real hardcore. People got literally tortured for the Trial of Flesh. Test of discipline and will against excruciating pain that would kill a lesser person. That's being a Jedi for you.

 

I can't say to the quality of the advice that the Jedi player characters might have offered in this situation, but giving people an alternative point of view that allows them to rethink things before they venture too far down the wrong path to me will always be preferable to telling someone they have to defer to authority no matter what. Following a rule without understanding a rule inevitably leads to rule breaking.

There's accepting the setting of the story, what the faction stands for and represents, and there's self-insertion of own self-experience. One of the reasons most teens are so stiff about Jedi abolishing romance. They project Jedi training on their own high school/college experience, their own desires and dreams. And that breeds countless fallacies in their view/representation of the Jedi.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Helig

[Lodril]

Unless they train on their own, which some seem to have done, and become much more dangerous.

 

That's why I'd recommend eliminating them entirely. They're too dangerous. Freedon Nadd once caused a supernova just to evade arrest by the Republic. Find a nice primitive world to settle them on, let them live in little Force sensitive medieval villages, drop them food and very basic supplies, annihilate any ship that violates the blockade, and any development below that seems too risky. It's the only way to be sure.

 

 

The 'gray' Jedi thing is pure logical fallacy. You've got two ways to access the Force; raw uncontrolled emotion, or emotionless self-control. Absent serious psychological problems, you cannot do both of those things at once. You can't, for example, love with passion (even selfless passion) and let go of all passion. It's possible to imagine someone who alternates between those extremes, or just doesn't go very far down either route, but they wouldn't be good at either, rather than having the benefits of both; uncontrolled emotion on useful occasions is not really a raw emotion so much as a feigned one, and self-control that is surrendered to emotion from time to time is not really self-control, but just a lull between storms.

 

Is the Jedi's priestly restriction a rough life? Sure. Is it a life I'd want? Heck, no. Luckily, I'm not saddled with that condition.

 

As another poster commented, people tend to project those Jedi restrictions on their own lives, and imagine those restrictions placed on themselves, instead of recognizing those limitations in context. It's like imagining the life of a professional athlete, playing a game for a living, being rich and famous, but overlooking that they don't just play the short game you watch and then goof off the rest of the time, but instead must practice and work out constantly, and diligently monitory everything they eat in order to stay in shape and be competitive. If the Jedi could just wave their glowy wands and do their magic, it would be Harry Potter fighting the Sith. While I'm sure that has appeal to some, at the end of the day, that's just not the Star Wars setting.

 

So that's why, in the end, the only 'good' option is to turn them in. Let the lovers get help, or be evicted from the order. Chances are, they should just be removed from the order, and consider themselves lucky to have found love and avoided a life of pretending to adhere to an aestheticism that clearly did not suit them.

[zzoorrzz]

I reported them of course. They were totally starting to get a bit crazy already, which kinda proves that force users and love is bad combo mostly. At least that's what my knight thinks.

[Bytemite]

That's the extended variant of the "how can they know anything" argument that always pops up in this kind of discussion, and is a fallacy. Also, out of post context.

 

I suspect you're trying to say that this is an ad hominem or an argument about hypocrisy. This is a personal issue, and personal experience with such issues does factor in. It's not an insult to them (by circumstances I must live in a similar way and there is nothing wrong with a lack of interest or avoiding those complications), it's not calling them hypocritical because they obviously aren't hypocrites.

 

Thing is, personal experience isn't besides the point, it IS the point. I'm saying that the argument the Jedi Masters are using in this case is an appeal to authority (when they arguably aren't really experts in these matters) and appeal to fear. Yes, emotions and attachments can lead to bad things, but it depends on the person. It really isn't a one size fits all thing. That's just reality.

 

You compare the padawans to your own experiences where you had discipline, but then it became okay when you were old enough and disciplined enough. Yet based on this, you were probably never in any danger from the complications in the first place. These padawan obviously were walking a dangerous ledge, but I don't see how forcing them to conform actually solves the underlying problem. Having them choose the right path on their own is far more likely to work out.

 

I'd also like you to explain how I'm putting my silly romantic highschool/college aspirations into the scenario when I've never HAD them. Also, teens and young adults have more sense than you give them credit for - it's not like ADULTS can't be driven by hormonal stupidity at times, or influenced by skewed popculture ideas about relationships and romance that have become overemphasized and ubiquitous. Yes, none of this stuff is all that important, but as you realized in your later years, it does have SOME place for some people.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bytemite

[Bytemite]

That's why I'd recommend eliminating them entirely. They're too dangerous. Freedon Nadd once caused a supernova just to evade arrest by the Republic. Find a nice primitive world to settle them on, let them live in little Force sensitive medieval villages, drop them food and very basic supplies, annihilate any ship that violates the blockade, and any development below that seems too risky. It's the only way to be sure.

 

 

The 'gray' Jedi thing is pure logical fallacy. You've got two ways to access the Force; raw uncontrolled emotion, or emotionless self-control. Absent serious psychological problems, you cannot do both of those things at once. You can't, for example, love with passion (even selfless passion) and let go of all passion. It's possible to imagine someone who alternates between those extremes, or just doesn't go very far down either route, but they wouldn't be good at either, rather than having the benefits of both; uncontrolled emotion on useful occasions is not really a raw emotion so much as a feigned one, and self-control that is surrendered to emotion from time to time is not really self-control, but just a lull between storms.

 

Is the Jedi's priestly restriction a rough life? Sure. Is it a life I'd want? Heck, no. Luckily, I'm not saddled with that condition.

 

As another poster commented, people tend to project those Jedi restrictions on their own lives, and imagine those restrictions placed on themselves, instead of recognizing those limitations in context. It's like imagining the life of a professional athlete, playing a game for a living, being rich and famous, but overlooking that they don't just play the short game you watch and then goof off the rest of the time, but instead must practice and work out constantly, and diligently monitory everything they eat in order to stay in shape and be competitive. If the Jedi could just wave their glowy wands and do their magic, it would be Harry Potter fighting the Sith. While I'm sure that has appeal to some, at the end of the day, that's just not the Star Wars setting.

 

So that's why, in the end, the only 'good' option is to turn them in. Let the lovers get help, or be evicted from the order. Chances are, they should just be removed from the order, and consider themselves lucky to have found love and avoided a life of pretending to adhere to an aestheticism that clearly did not suit them.

 

This I'll grant is an interesting argument in favour of reporting them.

 

I am unsure that the grey approach is a fallacy though, not any more than the dark side and light side have their fallacies. Voss for example seems an example of a dispassionate grey approach, it's not all about emotions. But I'll give that the Voss don't really have that great a system either.

 

There isn't really some golden mean between light side and dark side, and a person who is grey by randomly performing both selfless kindnesses and then jerk actions to preserve some kind of balance isn't really a philosophy, it's a mental health disorder. Yet to take either extreme of behaviour and say this is the correct way without recognition of context or the person using one side or another is also questionable. In every philosophy there will be both good actors and bad, paragons and monsters.

 

Also the idea of dumping all force sensitives on a single planet in a primitive environment seems extreme, and in a universe were ewoks can make a dent against an entire legion of well armed and conditioned soldiers, I'm not sure that would be the end of it. Also, probably create more problems and dangers than it solves. It sounds like a witches of Dathomir scenario, only with every force sensitive in the galaxy, millions instead of a scattered population of maybe ten thousand or so.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bytemite

[SithKoriandr]

That's why I'd recommend eliminating them entirely. They're too dangerous. Freedon Nadd once caused a supernova just to evade arrest by the Republic. Find a nice primitive world to settle them on, let them live in little Force sensitive medieval villages, drop them food and very basic supplies, annihilate any ship that violates the blockade, and any development below that seems too risky. It's the only way to be sure.

 

 

The 'gray' Jedi thing is pure logical fallacy. You've got two ways to access the Force; raw uncontrolled emotion, or emotionless self-control. Absent serious psychological problems, you cannot do both of those things at once. You can't, for example, love with passion (even selfless passion) and let go of all passion. It's possible to imagine someone who alternates between those extremes, or just doesn't go very far down either route, but they wouldn't be good at either, rather than having the benefits of both; uncontrolled emotion on useful occasions is not really a raw emotion so much as a feigned one, and self-control that is surrendered to emotion from time to time is not really self-control, but just a lull between storms.

 

Is the Jedi's priestly restriction a rough life? Sure. Is it a life I'd want? Heck, no. Luckily, I'm not saddled with that condition.

 

As another poster commented, people tend to project those Jedi restrictions on their own lives, and imagine those restrictions placed on themselves, instead of recognizing those limitations in context. It's like imagining the life of a professional athlete, playing a game for a living, being rich and famous, but overlooking that they don't just play the short game you watch and then goof off the rest of the time, but instead must practice and work out constantly, and diligently monitory everything they eat in order to stay in shape and be competitive. If the Jedi could just wave their glowy wands and do their magic, it would be Harry Potter fighting the Sith. While I'm sure that has appeal to some, at the end of the day, that's just not the Star Wars setting.

 

So that's why, in the end, the only 'good' option is to turn them in. Let the lovers get help, or be evicted from the order. Chances are, they should just be removed from the order, and consider themselves lucky to have found love and avoided a life of pretending to adhere to an aestheticism that clearly did not suit them.

 

When I think "Grey Jedi" I think a normal person with force abilities. All those force abilities, with a mind set that isn't basically, a psycho and/or sociopath. Just because one has the means to destroy a world, doesn't mean one has to use it.

 

And there is no reason a person with force abilities can't be powerful, and still be "Whoa...whoa...whoa...I'm not going to be an ******"

 

Now admittedly, without Jedi training, and this being the SW universe, this may be a little harder to pull off, because everyone with force abilities seems to go straight to the "I can kill them, so I will" route.

[Callaron]

It was different on different characters, some I said to go for it, some not. I am in the Jolee Bindo and Satele Shan camp. I think it's ridiculous for jedi to not be able to be in a romance just like I think it's ridiculous for the real life organization that they took it from.

 

I didn't know Satele was in favor of it - I figured with how she handled her own son she'd be firmly in the "No attachments" camp.

[Bytemite]

Who knows with Satele. It's possible she started out thinking it was okay, but maybe she doesn't now. The guy still clearly carries a torch for her, but mentions he doesn't ever really see her.

 

I think whether a force sensitive or Jedi goes crazy nuts in these situations depends on the character, or perhaps more accurately, the writer. Some of the relationships a Jedi can get into have no dark side points, others do. In story it seems to come down to how well a Jedi can separate duty from what they want and how well they handle their emotions. Total self control and emotionlessness might be the ideal, but I doubt any Jedi lives up to that. What's important isn't whether they have attachments, what's important is if they can still put the public they serve ahead of themselves and their friends.

 

The lightside is selfless, not unfeeling. Big difference between the two, one is life afirming, the other isn't. To be completely unfeeling would be to not care about things like loss of life or not care about helping others.

[Helig]

I suspect you're trying to say that this is an ad hominem or an argument about hypocrisy. This is a personal issue, and personal experience with such issues does factor in. It's not an insult to them (by circumstances I must live in a similar way and there is nothing wrong with a lack of interest or avoiding those complications), it's not calling them hypocritical because they obviously aren't hypocrites.

 

Thing is, personal experience isn't besides the point, it IS the point. I'm saying that the argument the Jedi Masters are using in this case is an appeal to authority (when they arguably aren't really experts in these matters) and appeal to fear. Yes, emotions and attachments can lead to bad things, but it depends on the person. It really isn't a one size fits all thing. That's just reality.

Yes, and personal experience is a much broader category than "If you haven't experienced this particular set of circumstances, it is not your place to judge it".

 

There is nothing that appeals to fear. Appealing to fear is a negative motivation. But appealing to, frankly, much more weighted judgement based on a richer, broader perspective is a perfectly sensible thing to do.

 

You compare the padawans to your own experiences where you had discipline, but then it became okay when you were old enough and disciplined enough. Yet based on this, you were probably never in any danger from the complications in the first place. These padawan obviously were walking a dangerous ledge, but I don't see how forcing them to conform actually solves the underlying problem. Having them choose the right path on their own is far more likely to work out.

That's the thing. Unjustified risk is unjustified. A novice athlete doesn't attempt to lift a 80-kg weight without proper training and preparation. Martial artists don't throw beginners on hard floor with the collision force of a truck.

Best-case scenario, he pulls or breaks something. Worse-case scenario, he's in a wheelchair, or in an early grave.

 

Instead, the athlete is taught how to properly work his muscles, how to adjust his balance. The martial artists train beginners to receive blows and to fall without getting hurt - first on the tatami, low position, then high position, then hard floor.

 

Some failures teach you little beyond the fact that you're an idiot. Which a wiser person can be considerate enough to inform you of, and to offer alternatives. Failed Jedi hurt more than just themselves - that's the problem.

I'd also like you to explain how I'm putting my silly romantic highschool/college aspirations into the scenario when I've never HAD them. Also, teens and young adults have more sense than you give them credit for - it's not like ADULTS can't be driven by hormonal stupidity at times, or influenced by skewed popculture ideas about relationships and romance that have become overemphasized and ubiquitous. Yes, none of this stuff is all that important, but as you realized in your later years, it does have SOME place for some people.

Those aren't your beer-drinking, football watching rednecks. Those are elderly monks, scholars, warriors. People who walked the Jedi path. People who know harshest discipline. People who faced suffering, terror and hardship. Comparing them to "regular adults, influenced by popculture/hormonal stupidity" is asinine.

 

You said it. "Some" place. For "some" people.

 

 

 

You seem to be forgetting that a Jedi falling to the Dark Side results in, best case scenario, someone else getting hurt or killed, and worse-case scenario, full-blown mass murder, all the way to genocide. You don't care about the lives of others? Don't fully realize the power of the Dark Side? Let the Jedi Masters care for all that in your stead.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Helig

[Bytemite]

This isn't an awful book we're talking about not having to read to know it's terrible. These are people's lives. If you're sincerely meaning to help them, intolerance and judgment has to go out the window.

 

You save Sith Lords in this story for goodness sake. People who have killed and actively try to kill people right up to when you stop them and ask them to reconsider their ways. The dark side can be redeemed and averted, tragedies CAN be prevented. Romance can lead to some crazy behaviour, maybe even insane jealousy that results in some deaths. But to say all romance leads to and/or is the equivalent of lots of people getting killed can't be a reasonable view of the dangers.

 

And again, don't attribute stuff to me that I haven't said. It's kinda rude to tell someone they don't care about life or people dying just because you disagree with them. I care. I also care about that whole QUALITY OF LIFE thing too. As, I suspect, do you.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bytemite

[Helig]

This isn't an awful book we're talking about not having to read to know it's terrible. These are people's lives. If you're sincerely meaning to help them, judgment has to go out the window.

 

You save Sith Lords in this story for goodness sake. People who have and actively try to kill people right up to when you stop them and ask them to reconsider their ways. Romance can lead to some crazy behaviour, maybe even insane jealousy that results in some deaths. But to say all romance leads to and/or is the equivalent of lots of people getting killed can't be a reasonable view of the dangers.

Precisely. Those are people's lives. And by throwing judgement out of the window you won't be helping them. Quite the opposite, really. If you want your children to become strong, successful adults, you don't go soft on them. You don't go too hard, either, but you don't give them what they want. You give them what they *need*.

 

Romance leading to crazy behaviour is one thing. Passions wrecking a Force-sensitive and leading them to the Dark Side is quite the other...

 

 

And no, it's not a "terrible book that you know is terrible without reading it". You read it when you're ready to comprehend it, and you read it when it won't harm you. A lot of Jedi had affairs. You don't get punished for "friendship with benefits". But attachment and full-blown romance is a subject of supervision (there are laws that state that the Jedi can get married, by the Council's permission, but under supervision).

 

Like in the Consular's case, for example.

 

And again, don't attribute stuff to me that I haven't said. It's kinda rude to tell someone they don't care about life or people dying just because you disagree with them. I care. I also care about that whole QUALITY OF LIFE thing too. As, I suspect, do you.

Oh, I'm sorry, you prioritize *your quality of life* above the lives of others, gocha.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Helig

[Bytemite]

I have little interest in a discussion about parenting. If you want to talk about the choices that sovereign independent individuals might make in an Order that sees romance as dangerous, doesn't believe in familial attachments, and has no use for parenting philosophies either, I might be able to oblige.

 

Also, yes, recognizing the dark side and the dangers thereof is important which is why convincing the couple to stop their relationship without forcing them into it is still a viable option.

 

As for your completely inappropriate and disparaging comments about my nonexistent personal life ( what do you NOT UNDERSTAND about having no interest in romance or intimacy?) You would do well to remember that I haven't made any cheap shots about your personal life.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bytemite

[Helig]

I have little interest in a discussion about parenting. If you want to talk about the choices that sovereign independent individuals might make in an Order that sees romance as dangerous, doesn't believe in familial attachments, and has no use for parenting philosophies either, I might be able to oblige.

The Order is one big family. The students are brothers and sisters. The Masters are the parents. The Council is the head.

 

Jedi are trained from very young age more often than not. Some children are born into the Order from Jedi families. Parenting *is* directly related to Jedi demographics and training.

[Bytemite]

I'm not continuing this conversation with you until you rescind your remarks that I don't care if people die and your remarks about my having an ulterior motive. That is completely inappropriate and not conducive to a civil debate. If you feel so strongly about all of this that you feel the need to make such insinuations, then clearly we won't come to a resolution. Edited May 13, 2013 by Bytemite

[Helig]

I'm not continuing this conversation with you until you rescind your remarks about my not caring if people die and your remarks about my having an ulterior motive. That is completely inappropriate and not conducive to a civil debate.

1. Ignore substance of argument

2. latch on to a detail

3. ???

4. Profit.

This floated somewhere around Encyclopedia Dramatica in the "guide to Internet debate".

 

Also, I wasn't appealing you *you* directly as an ad hominem argument. I used "you" as a broad nonspecific address (as in "you don't brush your teeth - you get cavities"), at least in the first post, and it wasn't my intention to offend. But you walked right into the second one, and I don't feel sorry for that one.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Helig

[Bytemite]

You're the one who keeps latching onto personal DETAILS. Eventually I couldn't just ignore it. Congratulations. Guide to internet debates indeed.

 

I don't have to play your game and fall into gotcha traps that you pepper into your arguments via unwarranted insults. This is not an acceptable or in good faith approach to an argument, and it is in my rights if you're not going to approach this on the level that I don't have to engage with you.

 

Later.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bytemite

[Helig]

You're the one who keeps latching on to personal DETAILS. Guide to internet debates indeed.

 

I don't have to play your game and fall into gotcha traps that you pepper into your arguments via unwarranted insults. This is not an acceptable or in good faith approach to an argument, and it is in my rights if you're not going to aporoachthis on the level that I don't have to engsge with you.

Wasn't even trying to insult you. I do admit to making some provocative jabs, and it looks like they landed a little too strong.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Helig

[Sarielle]

The 'gray' Jedi thing is pure logical fallacy. You've got two ways to access the Force; raw uncontrolled emotion, or emotionless self-control. Absent serious psychological problems, you cannot do both of those things at once.

 

Then what about the person you meet in a certain flashpoint ..

 

 

Revan? He obviously wields both light and darkside force powers, pretty much simultaneously. And he's a beast.

 

 

This isn't an argument, this is a question. I'm curious how people who feel the way you do fit him in?

 

I do admit to making some provocative jabs, and it looks like they landed a little too strong.

I've gotta take Byte's side on this one. The "provocative jabs" you made were about him/her personally, not the subject at hand. You're assigning values to someone else in an attempt to get them going.

 

It's a debate about characters in a video game. It really shouldn't ever be made personal, imo.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Sarielle

[Lodril]

Then what about the person you meet in a certain flashpoint ..

 

 

Revan? He obviously wields both light and darkside force powers, pretty much simultaneously. And he's a beast.

 

 

This isn't an argument, this is a question. I'm curious how people who feel the way you do fit him in?

 

Honestly? I mostly just put it down to bad writing.

 

Forced to take it in context though... maybe he has full-blown MPD, and his different personalities handle different aspects of his ties with the Force? Certainly, despite all his talent, he doesn't end up very well. He causes huge problems, and doesn't profit from it at all, nor really do the Galaxy any lasting good.

 

The argument for his power can only be, 'look how well he breaks stuff,' which is not really a useful power on its own, and certainly doesn't seem to indicate any mastery of the Light at all. In point of fact, most of his ability seems to be strongly rooted in the Dark Side, his followers, despite their calls for reason and 'balance', are still Sith, and the winning arguments with adherents of their philosophy are not that he spared the weak, trained aliens, and etc out of compassion, but rather that the weak made him stronger... which is a distinctly Dark Side answer.

 

In leading the Revanchists, Revan was a great Jedi warrior, not a great Jedi philosopher. Even before his days in the Sith, he was pushing for conflict. The very idea of being a Jedi warrior suggests an imperfect mastery of the Jedi code, since 'there is only peace', but the idea of a Jedi general urging rebellion against the Council so that he could lead armies strongly indicates he was never a good model of the Light. I would suggest that perhaps, rather than being 'balanced', Revan just knew a few Jedi tricks with the Force and was simply a powerful Dark Sider with Jed training, much as Vader would later become.

 

At the end of the day, despite any enhanced power to smash things that he might have achieved through 'balance' by his supposed simultaneous embrace of polar opposites, he is not leading the Empire or Republic, he is separated from his followers, and in the end, he goes mad and fails to bring peace, stability, security, or any of the things he set out to do as either a Jedi, or as Darth Revan. His response to freedom from the Emperor is not to seek balance or peace, but rather to immediately set out upon the course that got him into this mess in the first place... to build an army to destroy his enemies; again, hardly indicative of any embrace of the Light Side. His failure at that shows once again that despite the advantages his cult claimed he possessed by acknowledging both dark and light, they were insufficient to the task. His challenge may have been daunting, but certainly Sith Lords and Jedi Masters have been shown to overcome greater odds.

 

Ultimately, his philosophies result in Darth Bane; that's hardly a legacy of balance.

 

It's a shame. I really liked KOTOR as a tale of redemption... the misled Jedi returning to the light is a powerful story, and I think all the subsequent 'grey Jedi' nonsense really just confuses people and diminishes the impact of that story.

 

 

[Sarielle]

Honestly? I mostly just put it down to bad writing.

 

Forced to take it in context though... maybe he has full-blown MPD, and his different personalities handle different aspects of his ties with the Force? Certainly, despite all his talent, he doesn't end up very well. He causes huge problems, and doesn't profit from it at all, nor really do the Galaxy any lasting good.

 

The argument for his power can only be, 'look how well he breaks stuff,' which is not really a useful power on its own, and certainly doesn't seem to indicate any mastery of the Light at all. In point of fact, most of his ability seems to be strongly rooted in the Dark Side, his followers, despite their calls for reason and 'balance', are still Sith, and the winning arguments with adherents of their philosophy are not that he spared the weak, trained aliens, and etc out of compassion, but rather that the weak made him stronger... which is a distinctly Dark Side answer.

 

In leading the Revanchists, Revan was a great Jedi warrior, not a great Jedi philosopher. Even before his days in the Sith, he was pushing for conflict. The very idea of being a Jedi warrior suggests an imperfect mastery of the Jedi code, since 'there is only peace', but the idea of a Jedi general urging rebellion against the Council so that he could lead armies strongly indicates he was never a good model of the Light. I would suggest that perhaps, rather than being 'balanced', Revan just knew a few Jedi tricks with the Force and was simply a powerful Dark Sider with Jed training, much as Vader would later become.

 

At the end of the day, despite any enhanced power to smash things that he might have achieved through 'balance' by his supposed simultaneous embrace of polar opposites, he is not leading the Empire or Republic, he is separated from his followers, and in the end, he goes mad and fails to bring peace, stability, security, or any of the things he set out to do as either a Jedi, or as Darth Revan. His response to freedom from the Emperor is not to seek balance or peace, but rather to immediately set out upon the course that got him into this mess in the first place... to build an army to destroy his enemies; again, hardly indicative of any embrace of the Light Side. His failure at that shows once again that despite the advantages his cult claimed he possessed by acknowledging both dark and light, they were insufficient to the task. His challenge may have been daunting, but certainly Sith Lords and Jedi Masters have been shown to overcome greater odds.

 

Ultimately, his philosophies result in Darth Bane; that's hardly a legacy of balance.

 

It's a shame. I really liked KOTOR as a tale of redemption... the misled Jedi returning to the light is a powerful story, and I think all the subsequent 'grey Jedi' nonsense really just confuses people and diminishes the impact of that story.

 

 

Haha, fair enough. I had tried to rationalize it via, "Well maybe manipulating the force via positive emotion (joy, hope etc.) but I admit I am not even remotely a Star Wars lore monkey. I've watched the movies. That's it.

 

However ...

 

 

I don't think you can lay the attitudes of the Revanites on Dromund Kaas at his feet, unless they were actually around and taught by him before his imprisonment. (Which is possible, as I said I don't know jack about Star Wars lore). They struck me as having heard of his existence, and muddled out what they thought his codes, ideals and motivations were.

 

[Lodril]

I don't think you can lay the attitudes of the Revanites on Dromund Kaas at his feet, unless they were actually around and taught by him before his imprisonment. (Which is possible, as I said I don't know jack about Star Wars lore). They struck me as having heard of his existence, and muddled out what they thought his codes, ideals and motivations were.

 

I agree in abstract, but as we don't have very many windows into that philosophy, we have to go based on what we do have... none of which is as 'gray' as advertised.