Using Maul without the proc (PvP)

[Luckeyduckey]

Is it okay to use Maul without Exploit Weakness proc? I find that sometimes I like that spike damage, even if it costs 50 force, since I usually pair it with blackout for quick force. Any thoughts? Is it a DPS loss?

[Astarica]

It's fine to Maul if you've Blackout up though usually you'd have better burst DPS choices anyway.

 

In cases where you can anticipate CC, you might as well Maul because you don't get to do anything while CCed. The easiest case would be a Sage with bubble stun. Another case would be against a lone Marauder as you pretty much can't do anything to them while Undying Rage is up so you might as well Maul around 30% or so. If you get lucky you might be able to kill them before they use Undying Rage, and if you didn't you have all the time you need to regen your Force.

[cycao]

Never use maul without a proc. Even with blackout its waste of force.

[Xinika]

Never use maul without a proc. Even with blackout its waste of force.

 

True since launch, true even now.

[Philelectric]

Dont listen to Astarica. his post prove how hard he cant play an assassin the optimal way. On the other hand, Cycao and Xinika know how to play an assassin so you should listen to them.

[RankorSSGS]

I don't know if I would be so quick to jump on the "never ever ever without proc" boat. I know that if I've been stunned for a while or something mid fight and I'm sitting at 90+ force, I will use Maul without the proc, mainly because full force is wasted damage potential, so you might as well use our hardest hitting attack to spend some. Same goes for using Shock without 2 Induction stacks, not ideal, but if you have a full force bar, why not. I would only do this in the above mentioned scenario, as Blackout alone is not enough to justify an unprocced Maul. Basically, if you can spare the 50 force without gimping yourself, then I would say go for it. The "without gimping yourself" part is the key. Edited May 12, 2013 by RankorSSGS

[Xinika]

Basically, if you can spare the 50 force without gimping yourself, then I would say go for it. The "without gimping yourself" part is the key.

I'll agree here.

If it's a situation where the opponent has the amount of health Maul will take to finish them off and you're in the right position - then certainly, go ahead and use it. Very situational circumstances though.

[Astarica]

The reason to not use Maul when you've Blackout up is because that's likely when you're trying to burst someone down and you should have better options than an unproced Maul at this point anyway.

 

If all your good attacks are exhausted somehow when you still have Blackout it's perfectly fine to Maul at around 70-80 Force just because of the prevalence of CC, it is very safe to assume there's going to be something that stops you from doing DPS for a second or two and with the regen from Blackout you don't want to waste it. I guess it's possible you guessed wrong and absolutely nobody used any kind of CC on you, but that's just an extremely rare occurence because bad players spam their CCs and good players know when to use their CCs.

 

I swear people think PvP is like doing a rotation on a PvE dummy. Of course you'd never use Maul without a proc on PvE, because PvE enemies are 100% predictable and don't try to stop you from doing damage in any meaningful capacity. This is not true in PvP. If you know a Sage has bubblestun, you might as well use Maul to pop it, because it will pop it faster than anything else you can use, and the loss of Force is irrelevent because you'd be incapaciated for the next 4 seconds anyway. Now if you got a way to pop it without being in range for the blind by all means do so, but a lot of time you simply have no choice.

 

With healing being grossly overpowered, 'gimping yourself' doesn't really mean much, especially when fighting a healer. A healer is effectively immortal above 30%. If it looks like there's even a shot another Maul could drop them below 30% you go for it, because otherwise he's never going to die and it doesn't matter you're doing your optimal rotation because he'll quickly be up to 100% while you do your optimized rotation. Healing in general outpaces sustained DPS by a ridiculous amount right now that a lot of time it doesn't matter if your sustained DPS is 0 or 1000 because the healer is pumping out 2000 HPS. Any shot you have at killing someone in such a case, you have to go for it.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Astarica

[Xethis]

Is it okay to use Maul without Exploit Weakness proc? I find that sometimes I like that spike damage, even if it costs 50 force, since I usually pair it with blackout for quick force. Any thoughts? Is it a DPS loss?

 

Many moons ago I used a build that exploited Blood of the Sith for the extra force regen for a build that was basically Maul spam. In this video you can see that an extremely non efficient force management build can still be quite effective in pvp due to the amount of CC in SWTOR's objective based pvp.

 

This was back in 1.3, this was before Blackout, Fade, Entropic Field and Mauls actually hit for quite a bit less. 1.4 is where Deception got the huge boost pvp survivability and burst. The damage might seem quite low, but relative to the mechanics back then this build was quite bursty and to manage the force you had to rely on getting CC'd.

 

Edited May 12, 2013 by Xethis

[Astarica]

Using Maul without proc kills your sustained DPS, but sustained DPS is meaningless in a stalemate. In the current heal-strong environment it's not unusual to see single digit total deaths on both sides. If people aren't dying, whether your sustained DPS is 0 or 1000 is mostly irrelevent. In fact, on a map like Novare Coast you can argue that once you get into a stalemate it'd b best to quickly maul 3 times and get rid of all your Force and then try to cap the stalemate node (likely south) so you can optimize both time spent on capping and burst DPS potential. No you probably won't kill anyone like this, but you usually won't kill anyone to begin with in a stalemate.

[Luckeyduckey]

Thanks for the replies. Currently my assassin's only 36, so he doesn't have a huge number of options, since Thrash spam is weak, and shock doesn't proc Discharge yet. I've found good use with Maul spam though, ended up 4 shotting a 51 commando, with maul alone. Obviously, the crits made it happen, and in normal circumstances, shock and discharge are a better choice. I generally don't run out of force, and never use Saber strike. I'll probably drop this habit once I get VS, because discharge will be off CD faster.

[Xinika]

Thanks for the replies. Currently my assassin's only 36, so he doesn't have a huge number of options, since Thrash spam is weak, and shock doesn't proc Discharge yet. I've found good use with Maul spam though, ended up 4 shotting a 51 commando, with maul alone. Obviously, the crits made it happen, and in normal circumstances, shock and discharge are a better choice. I generally don't run out of force, and never use Saber strike. I'll probably drop this habit once I get VS, because discharge will be off CD faster.

 

I've seen lots of lowbie Shadows / Assassins using Maul without having the talents for its benefit. Try not to use it unless you have the duplicity proc. You're only hurting yourself.

 

This is generally the rotation I'm using for my lowbie sin:

Shock->Discharge->Thrash->Shock->(????)

 

Using this rotation, I do anywhere from 30-60% more damage than anyone else in the wz.

Reason being is because this is a rotation to keep my DPS flowing.

 

Non-Proc'd Mauls is a DPS-Halt.

This is because of its absurd Force Cost (50) and relatively mediocre damage for that cost.

 

???? Can be FL, Saber Strike or possibly Maul. However, FL and Saber Strike would be better, because it would keep your DPS sustained in case the opponent doesn't just suddenly flop over. Maul is spike damage, and it is a static DPS loss without proc.

 

Note: There is absolutely nothing wrong with using Saber Strike. It's supposed to be used once you're depleted on force.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Xinika

[Astarica]

The lower brackets are unlikely to see such heal-strong environments so you do want to maximize your sustained DPS in almost all cases. After all, using Maul without procs is basically praying to the crit gods. It's fine to pray to the crit gods in a stalemate game where nothing seems to work anyway, but that's hardly the first option you should turn to.

 

If you know your proc's internal timer is over, something like Maul (unproc) -> Assassinate -> Maul (proc) is reasonable to gamble. There's about a 50% chance the first two hits will proc Maul, and this is one of the most devastating burst DPS combos you can do. Of course, this is only possible if the enemy's HP is low enough to Assassinate, so they can't be higher than about 50% at most.

 

In the end, if it looks like you've a good shot at taking someone out with Maul, you might as well go for it, because if the guy is dead, your team is definitely ahead by a lot even if you used 100% of your Force to do it. That was how Pyro PT were overpowered. Sure they die easy and have serious resource issues, but if you always killed someone before you ran out of resources, your team has to be ahead. Of course Maul isn't as broken as PTs back then to mindlessly spam it, but anytime someone is in Assassinate range, it's definitely worth considering using an extra Maul (unproc) to finish the job.

[mrdert]

A lot of people have made some good points here. I figure I'll go ahead and throw in my .02 as well. If you are mauling out of stealth or have black out up I say maul the crap out of them, rather it's proced or not. When you maul you build one charge of induction and you have the chance to proc a maul. If that maul does proc then you just got off two mauls back to back for 75 force, and even if only one of them critted you've still done an average of 10-12k damage right there. You also now have 2 charges of induction and recklessness and the 3 stacks of discharge that comes with recklessness, so there's a good chance your're about to put a hurting on someone. There's also the fact that even if you don't proc a second maul from your first one you can still low slash, at least in deception, and proc a maul that way. So I kindly disagree with anyone who says mauling with out a proc is no good damage wise.

 

Force management angle, for the most part, is moot in deception as well. Being able to stealth out and come right back in with double black outs and recklessness off cool down pretty much grants burst and force on demand. it's very rare that I have to resort to spamming saber strike in warzones because I've run out of force. On the occasions it does happen, it's usually because I'm trying to take down a healer solo.

[Monterone]

No, don't ever use it without a proc, just don't get in the habit of doing it if you're just learning the class. Using voltaic slash twice will do as much or more damage for the same amount of force, or even less if specced. It will also help you upkeep the buffs you get from it.

[Astarica]

No, don't ever use it without a proc, just don't get in the habit of doing it if you're just learning the class. Using voltaic slash twice will do as much or more damage for the same amount of force, or even less if specced. It will also help you upkeep the buffs you get from it.

 

Pretty sure Maul is a straight up twice the Force for 50% more damage.

 

Of course I don't recommend anyone start learning the class this way, but at some point you will have to fight people who cannot be defeated by just running a standard rotation. Generally speaking, the better your opponents are, the more likely using Maul without proc is going to work, simply because the standard rotations have very little chance to break through a determined defense in the current heal-strong environment.

[Xinika]

Generally speaking, the better your opponents are, the more likely using Maul without proc is going to work...

I understand the logic, but this statement seems very reversed.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Xinika

[Luckeyduckey]

I've seen lots of lowbie Shadows / Assassins using Maul without having the talents for its benefit. Try not to use it unless you have the duplicity proc. You're only hurting yourself.

 

This is generally the rotation I'm using for my lowbie sin:

Shock->Discharge->Thrash->Shock->(????)

 

Using this rotation, I do anywhere from 30-60% more damage than anyone else in the wz.

Reason being is because this is a rotation to keep my DPS flowing.

 

Non-Proc'd Mauls is a DPS-Halt.

This is because of its absurd Force Cost (50) and relatively mediocre damage for that cost.

 

???? Can be FL, Saber Strike or possibly Maul. However, FL and Saber Strike would be better, because it would keep your DPS sustained in case the opponent doesn't just suddenly flop over. Maul is spike damage, and it is a static DPS loss without proc.

 

Note: There is absolutely nothing wrong with using Saber Strike. It's supposed to be used once you're depleted on force.

 

Thanks for the help. Been trying this out. Haven't noticed much of a damage change, but it should get better once I've hit 45.

[Astarica]

I understand the logic, but this statement seems very reversed.

 

You can just think of a weak opponent as a training dummy so whatever works on the training dummy works on that guy fine.

 

A healer pumping out 2000 HPS or whatever they're doing these days isn't going to be at all bothered by what works on a training dummy, though. To be fair it's not clear to me whether anything is enough to overcome a heal-strong defense right now but the standard rotation definitely has no chance of pulling this off.

[cycao]

You can just think of a weak opponent as a training dummy so whatever works on the training dummy works on that guy fine.

 

A healer pumping out 2000 HPS or whatever they're doing these days isn't going to be at all bothered by what works on a training dummy, though. To be fair it's not clear to me whether anything is enough to overcome a heal-strong defense right now but the standard rotation definitely has no chance of pulling this off.

 

So you think that depleting your force on a strong healer while doing much lower damage would help bring that player down?

 

Use a proper rotation (if you are doing it right they will be on the run after your 3rd attack) and now they are more worried about healing their own health pool while your team is doing work on their other priority targets.

[Astarica]

So you think that depleting your force on a strong healer while doing much lower damage would help bring that player down?

 

Use a proper rotation (if you are doing it right they will be on the run after your 3rd attack) and now they are more worried about healing their own health pool while your team is doing work on their other priority targets.

 

A guy healing 2000 HPS can just facetank your 1000 sustained DPS rotation and never dip below 70%.

 

Would mauling him 3 times do any better? Probably not, but if they all crit at the same time his health might actually dip below 50% and then if something else goes totally right he might even die. And no, running out of your resources has no effect on this guy. He's going to facetank you anyway and never get anywhere to execute range because his heals are massively overpowered. There are relatively few healers that are this good but if you've the misfortune of facing one of those guys, you'll know that a regular rotation means nothing to that guy.

[cycao]

eh whats the point.

 

Spam maul all day guys.

[JP_Legatus]

Focus damage and well-timed cc will still bring a healer down, and once the healer is down the rest go down quite easily Edited May 13, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[Calvin_Mago]

A guy healing 2000 HPS can just facetank your 1000 sustained DPS rotation and never dip below 70%.

 

Would mauling him 3 times do any better? Probably not, but if they all crit at the same time his health might actually dip below 50% and then if something else goes totally right he might even die. And no, running out of your resources has no effect on this guy. He's going to facetank you anyway and never get anywhere to execute range because his heals are massively overpowered. There are relatively few healers that are this good but if you've the misfortune of facing one of those guys, you'll know that a regular rotation means nothing to that guy.

 

This is wrong in so many ways. The worst thing you can do against a good healer is deplete your own force pool. You should be stopping all of their channeled heals before their resolve bar is full. Theres no way they should be getting anywhere close to even 1000 HPS on a single target (themselves) without getting any channels off.

 

While you're grinding them down, they will be using up all of their cooldowns. Save your hard stun and second recklessness burst for the point where you can reasonably expect to finish them off.

 

And yes, this is doubly true against guarded healers and cross-healed healers.

[Astarica]

Spamming Adrenal Probe by itself is 1000 HPS. I have no idea what kind of healer you go up against that can't manage 1000 HPS. Even Kolto Missile can heal 1000 HPS on one person in the instant it's used and that's an AE. Part of the problem with the heal-strong environment is that a lot of people are still deluded into thinking it is at all possible to take down a healer like a PvP training dummy while you go through your regular rotation. They absolutely shrug that off, often without the need of even casting any spells that can be reasonably interrupted. Look at the healer numbers in a WZ sometime and you'll see things like 9K highest healed is very common. Saying a healer can do 2000 HPS is very conservative. He most likely can do considerably above that if needed to, as the 2000 HPS is the number he averaged over the whole WZ, which is far below what he could heal for in any particular moment.

 

Depleting your resource is absolutely irrelevent against a properly supported healer. If you didn't kill him before Electrocute wears off he's not going to go below 70% ever again.