More rewards for tanks and healers

[MajikMyst]

Ok.. So.. I am not going to read the 8 pages to figure out what you all have been arguing about since last night..

 

Does anyone know what kind of rewards would be used to entice tanks and healers?? That to me is the largest issues..

[jgoldsack]

And as for you, i dont know how you have the cahonas to try and stand there and say that becuase it was in world of warcraft the same rules on class must apply. The advanced skills arnt a stand alone class, we dont get new ships, we dont get a different class story.

 

The reason why it shows up what advanced class you have is only so it is easier to find a healer or tank when looking in /who.

 

No where did I say that because WoW does it this way, SWTOR must do it this way as well. It was being used as an example, and kept getting brought up by other posters, so I used it in my examples.

 

As far as why it shows in the /who, that may be your reasoning, but it clearly says "CLASS", so that is what one has to go by. And the issues came up because he was trying to make Dual Spec and AC change into being the same thing.. which is NOT what people are requesting. They are 2 separate requests, but he was merging them into 1, which is where the whole "what is a class" discussion started.

 

Plus you can't tell via /who is the "Sith Sorcerer" is a healer or a DPS. Or if the Vanguard is a tank, or DPS.

 

My OPINION, is the reason the Advanced Classes are not separate for ships/class/gear is simply because Bioware was lazy when they designed the system, and simply wanted to cut corners.

 

So all i have seen in this topic so far is people jumping about stating that tanks and healers are special. The first person to state everyone should get a reward for every run was shingara. So i think some of you should get off your high horses.

 

Actually the system that is in WoW (which is used as the basis of this OP suggestion) DOES in fact reward ALL roles. However the reward goes to the role(s) that are in demand. So if tanks are in demand, the bonus reward goes to them as incentive to get them to queue. If healers are in demand, the bonus reward goes to them as incentive to get them to queue. If DPS is in demand, the bonus reward goes to them as incentive to get them to queue. The system assigns reward based on demand.

Edited May 9, 2013 by jgoldsack

[NrDLeipe]

its not the reward that doesnt make me que, i pref to do stuff with guildies

 

1, guildies will have a fast que cause a tank/healer is with them

2, smooth and fast run

3, no ninja looters

 

im sure there more reasons not to que for a pug grp but its just an example

[Raphiel_]

No where did I say that because WoW does it this way, SWTOR must do it this way as well. It was being used as an example, and kept getting brought up by other posters, so I used it in my examples.

 

As far as why it shows in the /who, that may be your reasoning, but it clearly says "CLASS", so that is what one has to go by. ADnt he issues came up because he was trying to make Dual Spec and AC change into being the same thing.. which is NOT what people are requesting. They are 2 separate requests, but he was merging them into 1, which is where the whole "what is a class" discussion started.

 

 

Your defining your point on the FACT that this is how wow does it. SWTOR doesnt have todo anything, it clearly sets up that each class has a ship, each class has a story, there are no stand alone class storys for the advanced trees, there are no alternative ships for advanced trees.

 

The only thing advanced class actualy does is allow you to specialise within your class. Nothing more nothing less.

 

Plus you can't tell via /who is the "Sith Sorcerer" is a healer or a DPS. Or if the Vanguard is a tank, or DPS.

 

You dont need to be able to tell they are a healer or a dps, the fact it shows there advanced class allows you to see they are more likly tobe that role as just seeing trooper or consular.

 

My OPINION, is the reason the Advanced Classes are not separate for ships/class/gear is simply because Bioware was lazy when they designed the system, and simply wanted to cut corners.

 

And you stating your opinion as fact, it is neither fact nor correct as shown by this website, the class story and the class ships.

 

Actually the system that is in WoW (which is used as the basis of this OP suggestion) DOES in fact reward ALL roles. However the reward goes to the role(s) that are in demand. So if tanks are in demand, the bonus reward goes to them as incentive to get them to queue. If healers are in demand, the bonus reward goes to them as incentive to get them to queue. If DPS is in demand, the bonus reward goes to them as incentive to get them to queue. The system assigns reward based on demand.

 

The system in wow is not the system we have, the system we have gives one reward per day of 5 tokens, The op never stated that this should be expanded to every run it was you know who. It was you know who that stated that just providing the reward for every run would increase the use of random group finder.

 

It was everyone else who said that was wrong, it was everyone else that said tanks and healers REQUIRED it for this to work. People stated that this and only this system would work and when shingara requested proof of this we ended up with this bs about what is a duel spec and not a soul has put forward proof that the only way it would work is the original idea of just giving rewards to tanks and healers.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Raphiel_

[DewyMossEmpire]

Giving Healers & Tanks more rewards is like making a minority out of DPS D: no fun! They work just as hard to be a part of the team, & if you make an exception for one, then everyone wants an exception. If you're a reliable Healer or Tank anyway you shouldn't need to beg for better rewards anyway, you should be able to operate just fine & get the job done fairly. This thread's idea is terrible.

[Shingara]

And the issues came up because he was trying to make Dual Spec and AC change into being the same thing.. which is NOT what people are requesting. They are 2 separate requests, but he was merging them into 1, which is where the whole "what is a class" discussion started.

 

Actualy thats incorrect, i stated that wow has more flexability as there are more hybrids who can tank, heal and dps. So in wow the reward is available to a larger group of people without the need for rerolling an alt to claim those rewards. I stated that if Dual spec came to swtor that people would want it to allow the same flexability which requires going into the alter AC,

[Caelrie]

ROLF. priceless. this is absolutely priceless.

 

anyways, back to the original topic.

 

if rewards for the role most needed were to be implemented, there need to be safeguards in place. something in a system that reads your current talent trees (since currently, you cannot save presets in TOR). otherwise, the issue with dps queueing as healers/tanks will be exacerbated from already frustrating occurrences we get now.

The safeguard that's in World of Warcraft is that you don't actually get the reward until the dungeon is complete. That means you need to be an effective tank (or healer) or there's no point to queuing as one just to get the reward.

 

Sure, some try it on their alts and fail, but that happens already anyway.

 

So all i have seen in this topic so far is people jumping about stating that tanks and healers are special. The first person to state everyone should get a reward for every run was shingara. So i think some of you should get off your high horses.

 

And how would giving everyone the same reward fix the problem? Enough DPS already queue. We're trying to get more tanks and healers to queue.

 

The system in wow is not the system we have, the system we have gives one reward per day of 5 tokens, The op never stated that this should be expanded to every run it was you know who.

Actually, I said it SIX TIMES.

 

I think you might actually be Shingara posting on a secont account.

 

Giving Healers & Tanks more rewards is like making a minority out of DPS D: no fun! They work just as hard to be a part of the team, & if you make an exception for one, then everyone wants an exception. If you're a reliable Healer or Tank anyway you shouldn't need to beg for better rewards anyway, you should be able to operate just fine & get the job done fairly. This thread's idea is terrible.

This isn't about helping tanks do their job as some sort of crutch. This is about getting them interested in queuing in the first place. Healers too. The extra reward for DPS players comes in the form of much shorter queues.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Caelrie

[Caelrie]

Ok.. So.. I am not going to read the 8 pages to figure out what you all have been arguing about since last night..

 

Does anyone know what kind of rewards would be used to entice tanks and healers?? That to me is the largest issues..

 

I don't know! What would tempt tanks and healers to brave the queues and put up with PUGs?

 

What WoW does is give a few things the character in question can use, and then give some fluff bound-to-account items. The TOR equivalent would be increased # of comms, significantly increased credits, and then a chance in every reward bag of a bound-to-legacy item like an armor shell, a pet, a rare mount, maybe a few cartel coins, etc.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Caelrie

[PlasmaJohn]

The TOR equivalent would be increased # of comms, significantly increased credits, and then a chance in every reward bag of a bound-to-legacy item like an armor shell, a pet, a rare mount, maybe a few cartel coins, etc.

I guess extra comms and credits would work pre-50. Credits are less of an issue post-50. I suppose it would save somebody from having to grind dailies. The caps on end-game comms make that a bit impractical since many people find it too easy to hit their caps weekly. Comm grants are self-defeating since after you've bought everything you want at that tier, what's the motivation to continue?

 

I like the CC idea, some small amount like 5 or 10 depending on what's being run. Need a haircut? Time to pull out the tank or healer.

[TridusSWTOR]

I agree that something like this needs to be put in the game. As it stands, it's clear that the order of roles that are needed are Tanks>Healers>>>>>>>>>>>>>DPS.

 

This should change.

 

I haven't played WoW long enough to be a part of the reward system, but just from reading what posters said about it, it sounds wonderful. You can cry "This game isn't WoW blah blah" the thing is, it isn't. Just because you add a feature from another game doesn't mean you are revamped into a entirely new game.

 

As for rewards, there have been some great suggestions. Awarding more comms is pointless, due to the pointless comm cap we have in the game currently. As a tank/healer, I would expect either a large chunk of credits or enough CC points to buy a character feature(Like another poster suggested, which is a really good idea).

 

Adding this in the game is pretty much a win-win. DPS finally get there daily(Maybe even their weekly! *Gasp*) and tanks/healers come out ahead with a nice bonus. The key here, is to make the bonus worth while, you want to draw tank/healer roles into playing and not saying "Yea that's not really worth it."

 

It all comes down to not screwing up the bonus reward for tanks/healers. Once you find that perfect medium, you'll be in a good spot. There is no need to go overboard, otherwise you are back to square one. Seriously though Bioware, consider this suggestion. Once you figure out the right reward amount, it'll help the GF queue's in community's ten-fold.

 

If you haven't already realized by now, shingara is a troll. Might as well ignore him or start asking him for proof of his claims. That's what I would do, but he hasn't tried to engage me yet. Probably because I would debunk him easily.

[Jeweledleah]

Right so you agree with shingara yet are taking the side of the person who has lost the argument to them and decided to try and squable about what a class is instead of the subject topic.

 

 

 

And as for you, i dont know how you have the cahonas to try and stand there and say that because it was in world of warcraft the same rules on class must apply. The advanced skills arnt a stand alone class, we dont get new ships, we dont get a different class story.

 

The reason why it shows up what advanced class you have is only so it is easier to find a healer or tank when looking in /who.

 

So all i have seen in this topic so far is people jumping about stating that tanks and healers are special. The first person to state everyone should get a reward for every run was shingara. So i think some of you should get off your high horses.

 

I just want to point something out for you.

 

do you understand the concept of "the role most needed"? in case you don't and judging by your response - you don't, allow me to explain. a bunch of people queue for a group finder. ideally it would be in a ratio of 2 dps to 1 tank to 1 healer. however, this is not how it happens. we have uneven numbers of people queuing and the role that has the most people playing it? gets to wait the longest. enter - rewarding the role that has fewest people queuing. note I'm not specifying what that role is, because it varies depending on a time of the day, etc.

 

the reason why people bring up tanks and healers is that 99.9% of the time? they are the role that's missing the most. but with this system if for some odd reason more tanks than healers would queue? guess who's "special" now? that's right - dps. its not about marginalizing dps, its about making everyone's wait shorter. especially dps.

 

and something I stopped trying to explain to shingara (who is on my ignore list at this point) but hey, might as well repeat it.

 

please do not confuse shared story with being the same class.

while this is most certainly not WoW, its still a class based game.

 

but.. lets use... Dragon age as an example, since its a bioware game and if TOR borrowed heavily from anything - its from their own single player rpg's.

 

you have 3 classes to chose from. rogue, warrior and mage. they get the same story. they get the same companions, in case of II - the same mansion to live in. the same name. however, they are STILL three different classes that play differently. all three are champion of Kirkwall or grey warden. but they are still mage, warrior, or rogue - with different gameplay rules. advanced class IS the class. and scoundrel is essentially the same class as the operative. but they get different story (kinda like in Origins, you could have a dwarf warrior or a human, or an elf, but all 3 are STILL warrior and have the same game mechanics)

 

I don't know how much clearer to make it.

 

as for rewards, like I mentioned - it needs to be something fluffy yet desirable. something that's not game breaking. so I don't think it should be coms or gear (unless its just modless shell - in that case - bring it on), heck a variation on one of the cartel packs, just smaller - could work. so you are not sure what you are getting and it might be something mech, or it might be something rare. to keep it interesting. (and legacy bound, naturally, similar to rare items you can buy from cartel rep vendor)

Edited May 9, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[mithriltabby]

I like the idea of putting the extra class-targeted boss loot drop in the mission rewards; that makes the reward scale with the mission without worrying about what commendations get people interested.

 

Alternatively, you could vary it and see what makes people respond. So for the first month or so, when there’s a queue delay over n minutes due to a shortage of role x, make the server-wide reward, randomly, 1–10 basic, classic, elite, or ultimate commendations. Then you mine the data and figure out the reward. (e.g.: “So 5 Elite commendations will get healers into most of the level 50 Hard Flashpoints, but it has to be at least 5 Ultimate commendations to get them into Kaon Under Siege or Lost Island. I guess rakghouls really are annoying.”)

 

[As an aside; It would also be handy if you could register two different specs with the system (skill tree + gear + quickbar settings); that way, if you queue in two different roles, you don’t have to make people wait while you do a field respec. If the hassle of changing specs were lower, that could also bring queue times down for advanced classes that can handle multiple roles.]

[Raphiel_]

And how would giving everyone the same reward fix the problem? Enough DPS already queue. We're trying to get more tanks and healers to queue..

 

You have no idea the number of people who are entering the random group finder, You have refused to show any facts on the matter. You stating just giving the reward for every run will not work is your downfall.

 

You just wanting to give shineys to the role you play is only an incentive to you.

 

Actually, I said it SIX TIMES..

 

You have echo'd it 6 times, after shingara stated it, and every time stating it wouldnt work unless tanks and healers got the extra reward ontop of dps. Just like here.

 

I think you might actually be Shingara posting on a secont account.

 

Really so because your flaw has been point out by others and you refuse to back up your claims with proof they all must be the same. Grow up.

[Raphiel_]

I just want to point something out for you.

 

And snip

 

Well that was alot of words to say not alot wasnt it. Let me point something out to you. We currently get 1 reward a day for running the random group finder. If we get a reward for every run the numbers of people in all roles will increase.

[Caelrie]

You have no idea the number of people who are entering the random group finder,

 

You seem to be the only one who can't figure it out.

[Raphiel_]

You seem to be the only one who can't figure it out.

 

Really, so show me the number of people who are doing one random group finder a day. Then show me the number of tanks, dps and healers who are doing multiple random group finders a day.

 

 

You arnt trying to improve the random group finder or the q times for it, you are trying to improve your currency gain from doing it. If they add a artifact box onto the reward for the 1st run and then give the tokens for every run after aslong as you select all which is how we gain them now that will increase the use of random group finder.

 

That will reduce q times and it will improve the random group finder, your just working on greed and what you can get out of it for your selected role over others.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Raphiel_

[NrDLeipe]

rewards not gonna change alot, the way i see it as a tank is im in a guild, i do operations with them and sometimes a flashpoint.

 

I outgear the hms atm so all loot that drops is pointless for me, elite comms are pointless to me cause im capped by operations.

 

So whats left credits, how much is enough i wont join for a 100k cause i can make more money elsewere in that time

and if you have okish grp theres a chance of wipeing wich eats of my credits.

 

i cant think of anything else for rewards , pets gear etc etc fluff stuff nah tnx gtn is full of it

[Jeweledleah]

Well that was alot of words to say not alot wasnt it. Let me point something out to you. We currently get 1 reward a day for running the random group finder. If we get a reward for every run the numbers of people in all roles will increase.

 

are you Shingara on another account or something? because you are very deliberately ignoring the point and using near identical language to do so.

 

did you miss the self correcting part where extra reward is given only to the most needed role at the time? so while the number of people queueing will increase, it will not increase precisely equally because incentive to run the flashpoints more than once will exist only for the role that is currently most lacking - and this increase will mean that more dps will get to run flashpoints since more groups in general will form and THAT is the whole point. getting more people, especially dps an opportunity to run flashpoints instead of getting frustrated with a wait that is too long and leaving the queue.

 

in other words - example math, numbers are obviously approximate and probably too generous (as in there's fewer tanks and healers per dps capita then I'm using here)

 

30 people queue over the course of say 2 hours. 3 of them tanks, 5 healers, 22 are dps. tanks get instant queues, 3 of the healers get near instant queue, but 16 of the dps and 2 healers still need to wait their turn for more tanks to show up. in a current system with its once a day reward, there's no incentive for people to pug a flashpoint more than once a day, so those 3 tanks, done with their daily queue move on to something else. now if you are one of those 2 left over healers, you probably don't have all that long to wait for next tank to show up, and so more healers joining the line behind you won't have as much time to wait either, however, for dps, being at the tail end of that line and joining behind? starts taking longer and longer. switch roles around as needed, though above situation is most common. there's plenty of evidence and testimonials to suggest that, that tend to go like "I get instant queue on my tank, near instant queue on my healer and half an hour to 40 minutes on my dps)

 

enter giving most needed role an extra reward. even if only one tank of the original 3 queues more then once (lets say the person above me, the one not swayed by the reward is the other tank that doesn't pug a second time around - or at all since they are already capped), that's still at least one extra group formed, and everyone else's line moving faster along, allowing people in a back of the line higher chance to run something at least once a day, reducing their wait.

 

now, it will not reduce it to a degree that it did in WoW. why? math again. WoW has 3 dps per group so that's one extra dps that gets to move up the line with every tank/healer. but it will still reduce it.

 

and the best part is? keep reward to desirable fluff and no one is disadvantaged by not getting it, (since it should be an equivalent of having a throne vs ubriki crimson claw - the only true difference is appearance and how much they cost to buy, functionality is identical), but everyone wins because more people get to run more flashpoints.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[Caelrie]

are you Shingara on another account or something? because you are very deliberately ignoring the point and using near identical language to do so.

 

It's pretty darn obvious, isn't it.

[Slurmez]

Steal this idea from World of Warcraft, please. When the queue detects a shortage of tanks or healers, it offers extra rewards for performing those roles at the end of a dungeon. It WORKED. It lowered everyone's queue times dramatically (from 2 hours to 10-15 minutes for DPS) because tanks and healers WANTED to queue for random dungeons.

 

The same thing could be done in TOR. Give them better comms, or more comms, or lots more money, anything. Get tanks and healers queuing!

 

P.S. Before anyone tells me to just roll a tank or healer, I'm almost always the healer. Sometimes I want to DPS though.

 

Edit: based on thread feedback, a small amount of cartel coins is a popular idea for one of the rewards, perhaps 5 or 10 coins per completion using the groupfinder.

 

Never played WoW so didnt know about this feature but given that its already out there seems a bit of a no brainer really.

[Shingara]

It's pretty darn obvious, isn't it.

 

are you Shingara on another account or something? because you are very deliberately ignoring the point and using near identical language to do so.

 

 

Well as i have been in hospital last night and had a dexa scan this morning and its impossible to be in 2 places at the same time then no they arnt me. If your suggesting because they are using english that we must be the same person then lol.

 

On that note does that mean everyone else who hasnt agreed with you in this topic are me also, should i assume that you are actualy the same person on 2 accounts because i must say you have the uncanny ability to both be online at the exact same time. Are the people who have come in here to attack me you also, you know like the person who agreed with me but sided with you for example.

 

If anything i would say that it is you using multiple accounts but this is academic now cos your just arguing to purposly bump this topic. It has been pointed out that by multiple people what is wrong with your argument, im saying your because i am assuming under your rules that ive been talking to the same person on multi accounts as the same argument has been put back to me from multiple posters and the same argument about what is a dual spec from multiple people.

 

To this i say adieu.

 

PS i wouldnt reply to this, i cant see you anymore and havnt been able to see you since yesterday.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Shingara

[Galandro]

I think this a good idea to steal from WOW. Incentives for tanks and healers when demand was high really did shorten queue time for dps and I don't doubt it would help here.

 

As for rewards, WOW offered a chance at rare pets and mounts, but also flasks and extra gold. For SWTOR, blue quality stims would be a welcome reward as would epic quality crafting mats. If I thought I had a good chance at a Thermal Regulator or two or a bit of Berylius, I'd be willing to pop into the queue and heal a pug. I don't know if giving away Cartel Coins as a reward would go over with the community (or Bioware's bottom line for that matter), but if the reward had a slim chance to include rare Cartel items that might be neat. "I tanked Taral 5 and all I got was this lousy Mask of Nihilus!"

[Jeweledleah]

I think this a good idea to steal from WOW. Incentives for tanks and healers when demand was high really did shorten queue time for dps and I don't doubt it would help here.

 

As for rewards, WOW offered a chance at rare pets and mounts, but also flasks and extra gold. For SWTOR, blue quality stims would be a welcome reward as would epic quality crafting mats. If I thought I had a good chance at a Thermal Regulator or two or a bit of Berylius, I'd be willing to pop into the queue and heal a pug. I don't know if giving away Cartel Coins as a reward would go over with the community (or Bioware's bottom line for that matter), but if the reward had a slim chance to include rare Cartel items that might be neat. "I tanked Taral 5 and all I got was this lousy Mask of Nihilus!"

 

rare crafting mats is a fantastic idea! i like that a lot personally - useful to a lot of people, already drops from content, so everyone else still has a chance at it, but most needed role just has their chance increased a great deal, but not game breaking. I thought small number of cartel coins mainly because they are already rewarded for certain achievements, but you do have a point.

[Raphiel_]

are you Shingara on another account or something?

 

I have enough dealing with one 3 year old, i dont have time to deal with another but as it seems you cannot have a debate without being one i dont have time for you.

[Jeweledleah]

I have enough dealing with one 3 year old, i dont have time to deal with another but as it seems you cannot have a debate without being one i dont have time for you.

 

apparently the answer is yes. good to know