future of maul?

[Xerain]

Actually, it is, spec into the old "Dark Maul" spec, use the +50 force set bonus, use blackout after the first 2, you can basically spam it 3-5 times in a row. Though, before 2.0, maybe 2 of those would be crits, now probably less.

 

See link of definition of spammable.

[SomeJagoff]

See link of definition of spammable.

 

L2P.

 

/5char

[Xerain]

L2P.

 

/5char

 

5x =/= spam.

 

You lose.

[KamikazeKommando]

Maul is not broken. Every class is now hitting for around 10k on at least one move, even Powertechs and Mercs, which, were supposedly nerfed.

 

Exaggerate much?

 

Show me a Powertech that can hit for anything *near* 10K and I'll show you an exploiter that's hitting someone with 0 expertise and every possible supporting buff active or something silly outlier like that. Now, in the real world we're hitting our top numbers in the 5k-6k region in PVP. I'm rolling fully augmented min/max Partisan with Conq MH/OH (yeah I know, silly me for using PVP gear), and that's the best number I can do with my toolkit. Checking the scoreboards for other VGs/PTs shows the same thing. Then you /facepalm when you see the #s from what some of the other classes can do on shorter CDs. I dunno what world you're living in, but that nerf to VG/PT burst is quite real.

[Astarica]

There's value in killing someone quickly over killing someone efficiently. If you Maul someone twice and they both crit, you're looking at 12K-18K damage. That amount is not a recoverable amount. It doesn't matter if you used two Mauls at their full cost, because you're looking at an enemy missing up to 60% of his health and about to dip into execute range. You still haven't even used your Low Slash, Recklessness, Discharge, or got your proc from Duplicity yet. It's nearly a foregone conclusion that the other guy is going to lose.

 

Now what's the chance of getting 2 Maul crits in a row? It's not very good, but this is where the augment exploits come in. By having enough extra stats your chance to crit might be good enough, or at least your one crit (fairly likely) might hit hard enough. It's impossible to say whether Maul being powerful is a function of itself or just exploits, but Maul has the unique property of being spammable. An Operative can't do 2 backstabs in a row no matter how much he wanted. There isn't even a choice, so even if he ran an exploit that gives him 100% chance to crit, he still can't backstab you twice in a short period of time. Maul has no such problems.

 

From a personal level I've seen Maul hit me for anywhere between low 5K to 9K and that amount just seems too big for legitmate play. I strongly suspect the 9Ks are either improbably lucky events (a guy with power/surge config gets lucky on crits) or augment exploit is involved, but I can't prove it. Certainly if Mauling for 9K is normal, then Maul is definitely overpowered just because this means whenever you crit 2 Mauls in a row, someone's going to die. Even if that chance is small, it's still downright scary. I don't think Mauling for 9K, especially on a tank, is normal or even legitmate, but we simply don't know until the augment exploits are fixed.

[Xerain]

Exaggerate much?

 

Show me a Powertech that can hit for anything *near* 10K and I'll show you an exploiter that's hitting someone with 0 expertise and every possible supporting buff active or something silly outlier like that. Now, in the real world we're hitting our top numbers in the 5k-6k region in PVP. I'm rolling fully augmented min/max Partisan with Conq MH/OH (yeah I know, silly me for using PVP gear), and that's the best number I can do with my toolkit. Checking the scoreboards for other VGs/PTs shows the same thing. Then you /facepalm when you see the #s from what some of the other classes can do on shorter CDs. I dunno what world you're living in, but that nerf to VG/PT burst is quite real.

 

So on my merc i can do 9k HSM's and 6k rail shots but PT doesn't have anything that compares... I smell something bad.

[Xerain]

There's value in killing someone quickly over killing someone efficiently. If you Maul someone twice and they both crit, you're looking at 12K-18K damage. That amount is not a recoverable amount. It doesn't matter if you used two Mauls at their full cost, because you're looking at an enemy missing up to 60% of his health and about to dip into execute range. You still haven't even used your Low Slash, Recklessness, Discharge, or got your proc from Duplicity yet. It's nearly a foregone conclusion that the other guy is going to lose.

 

Now what's the chance of getting 2 Maul crits in a row? It's not very good, but this is where the augment exploits come in. By having enough extra stats your chance to crit might be good enough, or at least your one crit (fairly likely) might hit hard enough. It's impossible to say whether Maul being powerful is a function of itself or just exploits, but Maul has the unique property of being spammable. An Operative can't do 2 backstabs in a row no matter how much he wanted. There isn't even a choice, so even if he ran an exploit that gives him 100% chance to crit, he still can't backstab you twice in a short period of time. Maul has no such problems.

 

From a personal level I've seen Maul hit me for anywhere between low 5K to 9K and that amount just seems too big for legitmate play. I strongly suspect the 9Ks are either improbably lucky events (a guy with power/surge config gets lucky on crits) or augment exploit is involved, but I can't prove it. Certainly if Mauling for 9K is normal, then Maul is definitely overpowered just because this means whenever you crit 2 Mauls in a row, someone's going to die. Even if that chance is small, it's still downright scary. I don't think Mauling for 9K, especially on a tank, is normal or even legitmate, but we simply don't know until the augment exploits are fixed.

 

Your mauls not hitting for 9k without the proc.

[SomeJagoff]

5x =/= spam.

 

You lose.

 

lol, you're using urbandictionary as a source? Gimme 10mins and I'll submit a definition that defines spammable as 5 times.

 

Your argument is fleeting, it is a spammable ability, as it has no cooldown and when spec'd/geared in a certain way, you can spam it repeatedly. Hell, you can even spam it more than the operative roll that people are QQing about it being spammable.

 

If you're not using the 50 force set bonus and if you aren't deception spec'd, then yeah, you can only use it 2 times in a row. I agree that's not spammable. However, IF you are deception spec'd (which is what OP is complaining about), And you have the +50 force set bonus, you can use it on proc 2 times for ~50 force (spike, maul, low slash, maul) right out of stealth, with dark embrace still active, probably already back to close to 100 force, maul again unproc'd (3), blackout, maul again unproc'd(4), maul again unproc'd(5). At that point, you'll probably get another proc from duplicity and then spam another one. I pulled over 400k damage in a match before 2.0 just spamming maul the whole match, and that was before the auto-procs from spike/low slash. So 400k from just 1 ability? Yeah, that's spammable. Pretty much the same as spamming flameburst before 2.0 for profit.

 

Now if you're getting confused with hits and critical hits, let me clarify, you can spam the ability 5, maybe 6 times, but probably only 2 of them will be crits, if even that after the crit nerf.

 

Nevertheless, I'm not arguing for a nerf to maul. If your goal here is to make sure maul doesn't get nerfed, then you should probably be directing your arguments towards people who actually want it nerfed, like OP. In addition, you should be clear about the usage of the ability. If you claim that it's not spammable, then you're basically like one of those people who blindly defends smash by saying, "nah, it's not op, just move, so easy to counter!" even though in most cases, it can't be countered, especially in cases with multiple smashers, where one roots you as the other one smashes you.

 

So yeah, if you want to argue against nerfs, you need to acknowledge that it is spammable, but that it isn't an auto-crit, so even if you have the +50 force set bonus, there's a chance that even with 5 mauls, none will crit. So instead of 5 8k-10k mauls in a row, it will be more like 3-4 4-5k mauls and maybe 1 8k maul.

 

Since the devs are so in love with deception now though, I wouldn't mind the proc being an auto-crit as well, then we Could have 5 9k hits in a row. =D

[Monterone]

There's value in killing someone quickly over killing someone efficiently. If you Maul someone twice and they both crit, you're looking at 12K-18K damage. That amount is not a recoverable amount. It doesn't matter if you used two Mauls at their full cost, because you're looking at an enemy missing up to 60% of his health and about to dip into execute range. You still haven't even used your Low Slash, Recklessness, Discharge, or got your proc from Duplicity yet. It's nearly a foregone conclusion that the other guy is going to lose.

 

Now what's the chance of getting 2 Maul crits in a row? It's not very good, but this is where the augment exploits come in. By having enough extra stats your chance to crit might be good enough, or at least your one crit (fairly likely) might hit hard enough. It's impossible to say whether Maul being powerful is a function of itself or just exploits, but Maul has the unique property of being spammable. An Operative can't do 2 backstabs in a row no matter how much he wanted. There isn't even a choice, so even if he ran an exploit that gives him 100% chance to crit, he still can't backstab you twice in a short period of time. Maul has no such problems.

 

From a personal level I've seen Maul hit me for anywhere between low 5K to 9K and that amount just seems too big for legitmate play. I strongly suspect the 9Ks are either improbably lucky events (a guy with power/surge config gets lucky on crits) or augment exploit is involved, but I can't prove it. Certainly if Mauling for 9K is normal, then Maul is definitely overpowered just because this means whenever you crit 2 Mauls in a row, someone's going to die. Even if that chance is small, it's still downright scary. I don't think Mauling for 9K, especially on a tank, is normal or even legitmate, but we simply don't know until the augment exploits are fixed.

 

First of all you need a proc for both of those, otherwise they will hit for 3k, or about 6k if they crit. And for both of them to crit there is about a 5% chance.

 

For it to hit for 9k, you also need an armor debuff from a sniper or a merc.

 

That's a lot of ifs and I'm sure it can happen one every ten games.

 

But you guys are right, let's talk about the miniscule chances of this happening instead of talking about a very predictable AoE smash that hits for more without any buffs from other classes. Smash is fine and everyone needs to learn to play, but no one is smart enough to turn around and not let an assassin maybe crit them from behind.

[Xerain]

lol, you're using urbandictionary as a source? Gimme 10mins and I'll submit a definition that defines spammable as 5 times.

 

Your argument is fleeting, it is a spammable ability, as it has no cooldown and when spec'd/geared in a certain way, you can spam it repeatedly. Hell, you can even spam it more than the operative roll that people are QQing about it being spammable.

 

If you're not using the 50 force set bonus and if you aren't deception spec'd, then yeah, you can only use it 2 times in a row. I agree that's not spammable. However, IF you are deception spec'd (which is what OP is complaining about), And you have the +50 force set bonus, you can use it on proc 2 times for ~50 force (spike, maul, low slash, maul) right out of stealth, with dark embrace still active, probably already back to close to 100 force, maul again unproc'd (3), blackout, maul again unproc'd(4), maul again unproc'd(5). At that point, you'll probably get another proc from duplicity and then spam another one. I pulled over 400k damage in a match before 2.0 just spamming maul the whole match, and that was before the auto-procs from spike/low slash. So 400k from just 1 ability? Yeah, that's spammable. Pretty much the same as spamming flameburst before 2.0 for profit.

 

Now if you're getting confused with hits and critical hits, let me clarify, you can spam the ability 5, maybe 6 times, but probably only 2 of them will be crits, if even that after the crit nerf.

 

Nevertheless, I'm not arguing for a nerf to maul. If your goal here is to make sure maul doesn't get nerfed, then you should probably be directing your arguments towards people who actually want it nerfed, like OP. In addition, you should be clear about the usage of the ability. If you claim that it's not spammable, then you're basically like one of those people who blindly defends smash by saying, "nah, it's not op, just move, so easy to counter!" even though in most cases, it can't be countered, especially in cases with multiple smashers, where one roots you as the other one smashes you.

 

So yeah, if you want to argue against nerfs, you need to acknowledge that it is spammable, but that it isn't an auto-crit, so even if you have the +50 force set bonus, there's a chance that even with 5 mauls, none will crit. So instead of 5 8k-10k mauls in a row, it will be more like 3-4 4-5k mauls and maybe 1 8k maul.

 

Since the devs are so in love with deception now though, I wouldn't mind the proc being an auto-crit as well, then we Could have 5 9k hits in a row. =D

 

TLDR.

 

 

Is this better?

[Darthdaedric]

Exaggerate much?

 

Show me a Powertech that can hit for anything *near* 10K and I'll show you an exploiter that's hitting someone with 0 expertise and every possible supporting buff active or something silly outlier like that. Now, in the real world we're hitting our top numbers in the 5k-6k region in PVP. I'm rolling fully augmented min/max Partisan with Conq MH/OH (yeah I know, silly me for using PVP gear), and that's the best number I can do with my toolkit. Checking the scoreboards for other VGs/PTs shows the same thing. Then you /facepalm when you see the #s from what some of the other classes can do on shorter CDs. I dunno what world you're living in, but that nerf to VG/PT burst is quite real.

 

http://i.imgur.com/GcF0pk4.jpg

 

It's from a topic on this very forum about individual records for all the classes.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=628745

Biggest Hit

Retader(EU)(Powertech)(11056)http://i.imgur.com/GcF0pk4.jpg

[stephenalandavie]

When i see other classes hitting for 9k it doesn't bother me as i am doing the same. Deception is meant to be number 1 for front loaded burst at the moment and that is true. our sustained however sucks and we can be focused quite easily if done well. Most players just run around like headless chickens so its no surprise i see them eating mauls etc. deception/infiltration is fine.

[SomeJagoff]

TLDR.

 

 

Is this better?

 

Actually, yes, much better, you just proved my argument:

 

The term spammable refers to skills or abilities that can be used over and over again, repeatedly. Such abilities do not have high resource costs, or cooldowns, or else there are ways to overcome such limits. For instance, a character with very high resource regeneration might be said to have made even a high cost skill spammable.

 

160 force (from + 50 force set bonus/deception spec) + 14.4 force per second regen rate (+30% force regen from darkness + dark embrace 25% force regen) = 7 mauls in a row before you're out of force.

 

I just tested it, use blackout after the 4th maul. I'm actually a little surprised it was 7, lol.

 

That = Spammable by your very own definition.

 

Again, stop wasting your time trying to deny Facts about your class. If you want to avoid nerfs, you need to point out/argue, that Not all of them will be 9k hits. Of those 7 I just did, 1 proc'd.

Edited May 8, 2013 by SomeJagoff

[Xerain]

Actually, yes, much better, you just proved my argument:

 

 

160 force (from + 50 force set bonus/deception spec) + 14.4 force per second regen rate (+30% force regen from darkness + dark embrace 25% force regen) = 7 mauls in a row before you're out of force.

 

I just tested it, use blackout after the 4th maul. I'm actually a little surprised it was 7, lol.

 

That = Spammable by your very own definition.

 

Again, stop wasting your time trying to deny Facts about your class. If you want to avoid nerfs, you need to point out/argue, that Not all of them will be 9k hits. Of those 7 I just did, 1 proc'd.

 

Nope that's not spammable.

 

Oh and on top of it all it has a positional requirement on it. So learn to strafe properly and stop keyboard turning.

 

Maul is fine.

[vimm]

Nope that's not spammable.

 

Oh and on top of it all it has a positional requirement on it. So learn to strafe properly and stop keyboard turning.

 

Maul is fine.

 

I don't know why people are so fixated on Maul; Discharge and Shock with the Surging Charge hit are brutal, too.

 

It's great single target spike DPS, and is actually fairly sustained as well, but certainly has a better - or at least more reliable - opening. Using Recklessness, and reducing it's active cool-down almost entirely by dropping combat, essentially resetting it.

 

I was fond of Deception before 2.0 even; they could put a ton of pressure on a healer. The good ones were probably the most irritating to deal with, as a healer, out of 'most-all classes. As it stands now, it is certainly better than before, as well as being more forgiving and simple to excel at - not overly, but the difference is there.

 

Is it too much, though? Hard to say at the moment with people's gear, and the bolster system, but I personally don't think it's overpowered. I am aware that it is very powerful, but it has it's weaknesses as well, and I'm glad to see it as more favourable for end game doings!

Edited May 8, 2013 by vimm

[SomeJagoff]

Nope that's not spammable.

 

Oh and on top of it all it has a positional requirement on it. So learn to strafe properly and stop keyboard turning.

 

Maul is fine.

 

ROFL!

 

Way to try to dodge the argument after you lost.

 

Please stop posting, I don't want my class nerfed further with the joke arguments you're making.

 

If you keep pretending that maul isn't spammable even though it is, you're going to confuse the QQers into thinking that it's an auto-crit as well.

 

So to be clear to the original poster of this thread and all those others who think that maul is overpowered, it CAN be spammed, but of those 4-7 mauls, it's highly like that only ONE will be a critical hit for 8k+, at most, 2, and the second one likely won't be as big of a crit.

 

And for you, Xerain, let it go man, you lost. Take your own advice:

 

l2p.

[vimm]

ROFL!

 

Way to try to dodge the argument after you lost.

 

Please stop posting, I don't want my class nerfed further with the joke arguments you're making.

 

If you keep pretending that maul isn't spammable even though it is, you're going to confuse the QQers into thinking that it's an auto-crit as well.

 

So to be clear to the original poster of this thread and all those others who think that maul is overpowered, it CAN be spammed, but of those 4-7 mauls, it's highly like that only ONE will be a critical hit for 8k+, at most, 2, and the second one likely won't be as big of a crit.

 

And for you, Xerain, let it go man, you lost. Take your own advice:

 

I believe he's referring to the fact that hitting Maul over and over (spamming) is very detrimental, and not at all what you want to be doing. If you were to do so, you'd be out of force almost immediately, and barely even do damage without the Duplicity proc, as well as a crit.

[KamikazeKommando]

So on my merc i can do 9k HSM's and 6k rail shots but PT doesn't have anything that compares... I smell something bad.

 

Ya think?

[SomeJagoff]

I believe he's referring to the fact that hitting Maul over and over (spamming) is very detrimental, and not at all what you want to be doing. If you were to do so, you'd be out of force almost immediately, and barely even do damage without the Duplicity proc, as well as a crit.

 

no, he's arguing that maul can't be spammed at all. He didn't say anything about any costs or detriments.

 

In terms of costs/detriments though, even without the procs or crits, each maul still hits for 3-5k. So 3k damage x 6 mauls = 18k damage, and that's assuming you get 6 really terrible hits in a row, which is about as unlikely as getting 6 really great hits in a row. Then if the 7th procs, another 8k, 26k total damage. You're only out of force when you hit the 7th maul, but with a regen rate of 10-14 force per second depending on dark embrace, you'll have a good amount of your resources back after a few seconds.

 

Even if dark embrace isn't up and you're only at the 10fps rate, the enemy is still likely going to be under 30% hp and you could just saber strike them to death til you have enough force for shock.

 

Personally, I don't have any problems with maul, and since they nerfed the shock damage, it's only right that they buffed another ability, in this case, maul.

Edited May 8, 2013 by SomeJagoff

[Xerain]

ROFL!

 

Way to try to dodge the argument after you lost.

 

Please stop posting, I don't want my class nerfed further with the joke arguments you're making.

 

If you keep pretending that maul isn't spammable even though it is, you're going to confuse the QQers into thinking that it's an auto-crit as well.

 

So to be clear to the original poster of this thread and all those others who think that maul is overpowered, it CAN be spammed, but of those 4-7 mauls, it's highly like that only ONE will be a critical hit for 8k+, at most, 2, and the second one likely won't be as big of a crit.

 

And for you, Xerain, let it go man, you lost. Take your own advice:

 

We're on the same team here of not nerfing deception sins. Learn to read too.

 

And speccing into a certain spec, getting gear, and popping cool downs to do this counts how? Oh wait it's still not spammable and you're an idiot.

[Darkshadz]

no, he's arguing that maul can't be spammed at all. He didn't say anything about any costs or detriments.

 

In terms of costs/detriments though, even without the procs, each maul still hits for 3-5k. So 3k damage x 6 mauls = 18k damage, and that's assuming you get 6 really terrible hits in a row, which is about as unlikely as getting 6 really great hits in a row. Then if the 7th procs, another 8k, 26k total damage. You're only out of force when you hit the 7th maul, but with a regen rate of 10-14 force per second depending on dark embrace, you'll have a good amount of your resources back after a few seconds.

 

Even if dark embrace isn't up and you're only at the 10fps rate, the enemy is still likely going to be under 30% hp and you could just saber strike them to death.

 

Personally, I don't have any problems with maul, and since they nerfed the shock damage, it's only right that they buffed another ability, in this case, maul.

 

If someone let a sin "spam" maul on him, the problem isn't the ability but the player who would be stupid enough to stand still. Last but not least, a sin who "spam" maul is not a good sin.

[Xerain]

no, he's arguing that maul can't be spammed at all. He didn't say anything about any costs or detriments.

 

In terms of costs/detriments though, even without the procs or crits, each maul still hits for 3-5k. So 3k damage x 6 mauls = 18k damage, and that's assuming you get 6 really terrible hits in a row, which is about as unlikely as getting 6 really great hits in a row. Then if the 7th procs, another 8k, 26k total damage. You're only out of force when you hit the 7th maul, but with a regen rate of 10-14 force per second depending on dark embrace, you'll have a good amount of your resources back after a few seconds.

 

Even if dark embrace isn't up and you're only at the 10fps rate, the enemy is still likely going to be under 30% hp and you could just saber strike them to death til you have enough force for shock.

 

Personally, I don't have any problems with maul, and since they nerfed the shock damage, it's only right that they buffed another ability, in this case, maul.

 

At the highlighted. DID YOU NOT READ ANY OF THE DEFINITIONS I LINKED?!

[KamikazeKommando]

http://i.imgur.com/GcF0pk4.jpg

 

It's from a topic on this very forum about individual records for all the classes.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=628745

Biggest Hit

Retader(EU)(Powertech)(11056)http://i.imgur.com/GcF0pk4.jpg

 

Seems fishy. A Vanguard with 25K cranking out over 11K in a single hit? How many times has anyone EVER seen a VG/PT get anywhere close to that in 2.0 PVP. Perhaps if the deck was stacked, getting all damage buffs (inspiration, 15% pick up item, etc), wearing PVE set bonus, full power set, power relic proc, and critting someone wearing lvl20 expertise light armor... maybe...

 

Just because there may be a screenshot somewhere of some crazy outlier situation doesn't dispute that 99.9999% of the time the biggest hit any VG/PT does in WZs today is half that on average and enable throwing a claim that VG/PT can throw out 10K hits no problem.

 

I don't think he can explain it either, because on the Vanguard forums he states this:

 

I dont spam DoTs and even get highest or second highest DMG in Warzones... it only lacks on Burst DMG and large numbers.

Most of the time you are only able to do 5-7K HiB where 7K is the lucky lucky one, Stook Strike hits for 5,xK and AP sometimes even for 5K!

Edited May 8, 2013 by KamikazeKommando

[SomeJagoff]

At the highlighted. DID YOU NOT READ ANY OF THE DEFINITIONS I LINKED?!

 

Actually, I did, and I specifically quoted it, but I guess you didn't read it, so lemme post it again (assuming you'll read it this time)

 

The term spammable refers to skills or abilities that can be used over and over again, repeatedly. Such abilities do not have high resource costs, or cooldowns, or else there are ways to overcome such limits. For instance, a character with very high resource regeneration might be said to have made even a high cost skill spammable.

 

darkswell alone increases your force regen rate signiicantly, darkness spec force regen inreases it further, +50 force set bonus increases your energy pool, +10 force deception spec increases your energy pool further.

 

Those above criteria make for this:

 

a character with very high resource regeneration might be said to have made even a high cost skill spammable.

 

That makes maul spammable, by your own definition that you linked. Did You even bother checking the links you provided?.......!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!11111one

 

Seriously man, if you're not going to make a coherent argument and resort to namecalling, don't even bother replying.

[Xerain]

7 times isn't spammable nor is having to pop cool downs to make it spammable count. Go read the other definition linked.

 

Or here you can search through google and nit pick your argument all you want but you're still failing.

 

 

1. Spammable

 

1) a) (Adj.) Something that can be spammed easily, quickly, and with little or no consequence. b) (Adj.)A video game skill or action that can be (and often is) used multiple times in rapid succession. (e.g., Repeated melee attacks, spam fireball)

Edited May 8, 2013 by Xerain