The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 07: Darth Maul vs. Asajj Ventress

[fellblade]

I like Ventress a lot but I will take Maul in This - I just think he is the better fighter

 

Firstly I think His Technical abilities and Skills are more refined also his stylistic Blend Gives him good versatility

and adaptability. Not to mention that he can shrug off more physical punishment

 

Juyo is a Kinetic Style that Makashi may have some problems against. Maul can fight with Saberstaff, Jar Kai Wielding and Single Saber. Ventress is noticeably less effective if not using Jar Kai. Maul will Ramp up the Pace of the Fight as it goes on and overwhelm her. Savage Oppress was pretty good match for Ventress - Maul showed that he was a different level to Oppress and pretty much schooled him as easily as Dooku when they fought for dominance....

 

Ventress usually fights Obi and Anakin to run away - Savage Oppress was able to hold them off as well as a droid ambush when escape was his primary goal

 

Dooku Rated Mauls Skills - Dooku said that if Savage was as Powerful as Maul then they would be able to Overthrow Sidious together. I think Maul would do a lot better against Dooku than Ventress

Maul was able to Overwhelm Armoured Vader toe to toe - and Vader was a more effective fighter then than in his Anakin days and he wasn't able to bring his powerful telekinetics to bear against Maul

 

Maul's actual force ability is underrated

The Cartoon is a Different medium from the movies (where we have only seen Ventress) - Maul himself used force powers more in the cartoon and some powerful Telekinetics to pull down a pretty large ship. and Aside from Sidious seems to be pretty hard to catch with Force abilities. Also he must be pretty powerful to use the force to keep alive after being Chopped in Half - I haven't seen many Jedi or Sith that would be able to do this.....

 

He gave a pretty good account of himself in Jar Kai vs Sidious being pretty much matching him overwhelmed by force powers in the end.

 

In the Fight 2 v 1 against Obi Wan - Obi Wan concentrated on Savage (Savages' overeagerness and lack of experience - leaving his knee exposed proved a liability)

[LadyKulvax]

I've got to correct you on something here. Obi-Wan did not defeat Maul in an Ataru vs. Juyo duel. In fact, Maul beat Obi-Wan in that duel. Obi-Wan only won when he Force-pulled Qui-Gon's lightsaber and cut Maul in half. In the fight itself, Maul had Obi-Wan beaten cleanly.

 

I am referring to the victory when Obi-Wan destroyed half of Maul's weapon and nearly killed him anyway and this was again in an enclosed space, perfect for Juyo, terrible for Ataru.

 

Also, as I have also stated before, Juyo's normally powerful kinetic blows become much less so with the use of a Saberstaff, it is very clear from watching the Theed palace engagement and reading his books like Wrath and Shadow Hunter, that his Juyo was NOT focused on kinetic blows, but instead based on lightning fast blows which included teras kasi unarmed combat techniques, he also used Niman heavily which was a form of moderation.

Edited May 7, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[fellblade]

I am referring to the victory when Obi-Wan destroyed half of Maul's weapon and nearly killed him anyway and this was again in an enclosed space, perfect for Juyo, terrible for Ataru.

 

Also, as I have also stated before, Juyo's normally powerful kinetic blows become much less so with the use of a Saberstaff, it is very clear from watching the Theed palace engagement and reading his books like Wrath and Shadow Hunter, that his Juyo was NOT focused on kinetic blows, but instead based on lightning fast blows which included teras kasi unarmed combat techniques, he also used Niman heavily which was a form of moderation.

 

He did not nearly kill him - he chopped his saber in half and then Maul recovered straight away - they fought for a bit and Went into a Saber lock - Maul WON the saber lock - forcing Obi Wan's saber upwards leaving him Vulnerable to the Force Push that knocked Obi Wan into the reactor..... (funny Thing is - Maul seemed to use a more mobile acrobatic style than both of his 'Ataru' opponents in the film)

 

It is these mix of Styles that give him an extra edge - he is More than just Pure Juyo but he Is primarily a master of Juyo so of course would have the option of using a more Kinetic style if he felt it would be advantageous to use against a specific opponent.........(like a Ventress)

[mefit]

I am going with Maul , he was trained by the most powerful skilled Sithlord ever .

Even though Maul was no master of Double Bladed Lightsabers (Where is he was best suited for Single Hand LightSabers) , he used one famously in the Movie and killed a Jedi Master and almost his padawan who by luck got the final blow with his master's lightsaber .

 

Ventress was never considered worthy of being a Apprentice and in all fights of note worthy Characters , ended up running for her life in the end . Hence her going in hiding .

She was atlarge just a pawn who when not needed anymore was targeted to be killed.

Darth Maul now also a Pawn was still considered more worthy to be still used where is Ventress was not .

 

Ventress does have 1 thing over Maul , she is able to get away . So far no one has been able to get her and that is a feat worth mentioning.

 

But in a 1v1 fight with Maul with no exits , she loses .

 

I Think over all Ventress is a way more appealing character and one I would rather see more of , but she is clearly out matched even with Cyber Legs Maul .

Edited May 7, 2013 by mefit

[Selenial]

Ventress was never considered worthy of being a Apprentice and in all fights of note worthy Characters , ended up running for her life in the end . Hence her going in hiding .

She was atlarge just a pawn who when not needed anymore was targeted to be killed.

Darth Maul now also a Pawn was still considered more worthy to be still used where is Ventress was not .

 

Oh so wrong.

She has fled in combat with the strongest characters in TCW, like Yoda, Kenobi and Skywalker, but she has bested other major powers.

She defeated Luminara Unduli with ease, she bested General Grevious in one on one Saber Combat (She didn't even use the force) She had many noteworthy battles, you're just comparing her skills to people Maul could not face either.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Not entirely sure why people are bringing up the TCW into this, when were only going as so far as TPM with Maul. Therefore anything he done there, wouldn't apply here because were only using up to TPM with him. Edited May 7, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Selenial]

Not entirely sure why people are bringing up the TCW into this, when were only going as so far as TPM with Maul. Therefore anything he done there, wouldn't apply here because were only using up to TPM with him.

 

Indeed. TCW Holds its place in this argument for Ventress, but you cannot use anything from TCW to back up maul...

[Beniboybling]

Not entirely sure why people are bringing up the TCW into this, when were only going as so far as TPM with Maul. Therefore anything he done there, wouldn't apply here because were only using up to TPM with him.

Indeed. TCW Holds its place in this argument for Ventress, but you cannot use anything from TCW to back up maul...

Again can we have some basis for this? Essentially they are the same person. TCW Maul did not secretly train himself to master Jar'Kai and single wielding. Nor do I believe his Force potential was rapidly increased.

 

He just lost his legs and got angry, that is all. They are the same person. You cannot say the feats do not appl without providing any logical or factual basis.

 

EDIT: What I mean to say is you cannot reject those feats as completely invalid with no real basis other than titles that you yourself have ascribed to the character.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Oh and Aurbere, something that came up in by Huttball thread which inspired a question: is Satele Shan in this tournament Grand Master or Jedi Knight? Or Padawan?

[Wolfninjajedi]

Again can we have some basis for this? Essentially they are the same person. TCW Maul did not secretly train himself to master Jar'Kai and single wielding. Nor do I believe his Force potential was rapidly increased.

 

He just lost his legs and got angry, that is all. They are the same person. You cannot say the feats do not appl without providing any logical or factual basis.

 

Because he didn't show anything prior, he didn't fight against other Jedi or anything of the sort honing his skills, other then the ones he did fight before he was cut in half. They are the same person yes, but if we start including TCW for Maul then what is the point of only going up to TPM with him?

 

If were only going up to TPM with Maul, we can only use what he did at the time and beforehand.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Because he didn't show anything prior, he didn't fight against other Jedi or anything of the sort honing his skills, other then the ones he did fight before he was cut in half. They are the same person yes, but if we start including TCW for Maul then what is the point of only going up to TPM with him?

But why does that matter? He has in TCW and its the same person. Only feats he performed with the help of his legs should be redacted. And of course his skill with a single blade etc. should be considered in the context that he will be double-blading in the battle. But I find it illogical to say those feats are entirely invalid as if they are somehow different people.

 

I voted TPM because I felt the addition of the legs and single-wielding would drastically change how we approach the debate and render many of his feats in TPM inapplicable. For example we can't say for sure how his legs will effect his fightining style, whether they were a help or a hindrance, if they effected his Force affinity or not and how they would effect his general mobility etc. We would be delving into the realm of speculation.

 

While I felt reversing it was not so drastic. Really the idea to make the distinction between TPM Maul and TCW Maul was not mine. In my mind they were always one and the same person, he just lost his legs at one point and got them replaced. Not much different from Anakin pre-Geonosis and Anakin immediately after. The guy just lost an arm.

 

Nevertheless Aurbere does raise a good point that his Force abilities may have been bolstered by his rage building etc. But that's how I feel we should approach this, not saying they are invalid for no other reason than a nametag. At least consider them.

 

Really I think we should get this TPM/TCW distinction out of our heads, and treat them as the same person but in different stages of their lives. Get back to the facts people!

[Beniboybling]

If were only going up to TPM with Maul, we can only use what he did at the time and beforehand.

We have to at least consider them, we can't just put blinkers on our heads and pretend they didn't happen. That's just being willfully ignorant.

 

E.g. If in TCW Maul had an arm chopped off and grew it back, would we assume TPM Maul is incapable of doing that? No. We'd at least consider it.

 

Likewise we have to at least consider that given Maul recieved no training between his 'death' and 'resurrection' that he was skilled enough in the lightsaber to go toe-to-toe with Darth Sidious etc. If he had recieved training then you'd have a point. But he didn't, he's basically been in a hovel of suspended feat-a-mation (yes I made that word up) for 10 years and BOOM he's back.

 

EDIT: I mean, without backing it up with any justification whatsoever, its just about as ridiculous as saying that Obi-Wan Kenobi seconds before he dueled Dooku on Geonosis cannot catch lighting with his lightsaber, because he did that a few seconds later and that's not the Obi-Wan we are dealing with here. Without logic or facts to back it up this is essentially your stance.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Wolfninjajedi]

But why does that matter? He has in TCW and its the same person. Only feats he performed with the help of his legs should be redacted. And of course his skill with a single blade etc. should be considered in the context that he will be double-blading in the battle. But I find it illogical to say those feats are entirely invalid as if they are somehow different people.

 

I voted TPM because I felt the addition of the legs and single-wielding would drastically change how we approach the debate and render many of his feats in TPM inapplicable. For example we can't say for sure how his legs will effect his fightining style, whether they were a help or a hindrance, if they effected his Force affinity or not and how they would effect his general mobility etc. We would be delving into the realm of speculation.

 

While I felt reversing it was not so drastic. Really the idea to make the distinction between TPM Maul and TCW Maul was not mine. In my mind they were always one and the same person, he just lost his legs at one point and got them replaced. Not much different from Anakin pre-Geonosis and Anakin immediately after. The guy just lost an arm.

 

Nevertheless Aurbere does raise a good point that his Force abilities may have been bolstered by his rage building etc. But that's how I feel we should approach this, not saying they are invalid for no other reason than a nametag. At least consider them.

 

Really I think we should get this TPM/TCW distinction out of our heads, and treat them as the same person but in different stages of their lives. Get back to the facts people!

 

But in TCW he is wielding a single saber, so how are we suppose to know just how well he would do if he is missing his actual legs and missing his double bladed saber? His feats in using his double bladed saber, is only before he was cut in half.

 

They aren't different people that is right, however they are different in the way they fought and what they did.

[mefit]

I love how a person who literally has the same lack of abilities and powers as Revan is getting such backing .......

Maul is a master of lightsaber forms ,Ventress is not .

 

Ventress only wins are mainly over none force users while Maul killed master , Maul fought Vader / Palpatine and stood his ground . He might have begged for his life but at least Palpatine thought it was worth sparing where Ventress was not .

 

TWC holds as much ground as Eu and it would not even matter if it didn't !

Ventress was only given enough skills to make her a target and a test for Anakin !

 

Sorry on my phone posting this , fix it later !

[mefit]

But in TCW he is wielding a single saber, so how are we suppose to know just how well he would do if he is missing his actual legs and missing his double bladed saber? His feats in using his double bladed saber, is only before he was cut in half.

 

They aren't different people that is right, however they are different in the way they fought and what they did.

 

Maul is not a master in double blade as he was with single blade.

The fact Sidious did not disarm Maul insabercombat without resorting to force powers is something !

 

Edit: yes Sidious was toying with Maul but he was likely testing his worth as well !

 

If we ae going to down play Maul who is clearly master light saber combat skills and has force training by the most powerful Sithlord Sidious where is Ventress is not the master of any combat form or force power and was only trained to meet the needs to cause some chaos and take away attention from Sidious !

Edited May 7, 2013 by mefit

[Beniboybling]

Maul is not a master in double blade as he was with single blade.

The fact Sidious did not disarm Maul insabercombat without resorting to force powers is something !

This basically, we can assume that Maul was more skilled with double-bladed lightsaber combat than he was with a single-blade and with dual-blades. So essentially he would have given Sidious an even tougher time.

 

Also not that Maul had normal legs in that battle, so that factor at least comes into it.

 

Nonetheless these feats aside I still believe Maul would win. Ventress may or may not surpass him in terms of Force abilities but he remains the master and she the pupil. Her Force powers would not give her a considerable enough edge to win.

 

As much as I love Ventress, she would be just as soundly defeated by him as she was by Dooku.

 

P.S. Kudos for Kreia quote mefit

Edited May 7, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Wolfninjajedi]

Maul is not a master in double blade as he was with single blade.

The fact Sidious did not disarm Maul insabercombat without resorting to force powers is something !

 

Though the duel is moot being Maul was fighting differently then what he was doing in TPM, and really Sidious was just toying with Maul and Savage up until he killed Savage.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

That really just hurts Maul more...though the duel is moot being Maul is fighting differently then what he was doing in TPM.

Skill is skill, no matter what blade your wielding. His mastery of Juyo, not the lightsaber he was wielding, is responsible for his prolonged duel with Sidious.

 

Note Juyo, he is wielding the same form.

[mefit]

Though the duel is moot being Maul was fighting differently then what he was doing in TPM, and really Sidious was just toying with Maul and Savage up until he killed Savage.

 

I truly think Maul liked to challenge himself but this is purely my opinion

[LadyKulvax]

I entirely disagree, I think she could play some very detrimental mind games, I think her Makashi is highly refined, and whilst Maul's Juyo and niman combat techniques are very highly honed, his engagements clearly show a bias towards quick lightning fast combat rather than heavy kinetic attacks, which would be very hard to use whilst wielding a saberstaff.

 

I also believe that Ventress' prowess with the force is far beyond Maul's given the displays of Maul during the phantom menace and beforehand.

 

I also believe there is a clear difference between Maul as a Sith Assassin and Maul as a rogue Sith Warlord, the difference is very clear when you have read the books as well.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Skill is skill, no matter what blade your wielding. His mastery of Juyo, not the lightsaber he was wielding, is responsible for his prolonged duel with Sidious.

 

Note Juyo, he is wielding the same form.

 

The lightsaber is part of it yes, double bladed sabers as its been noted....limits movements and unable to adjust posture. Skill is skill yes, but the way the skill is applied is also based on the weapon.

 

I will be honest though, I don't really care much for who wins this round. I was just merely pointing something out.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

This basically, we can assume that Maul was more skilled with double-bladed lightsaber combat than he was with a single-blade and with dual-blades. So essentially he would have given Sidious an even tougher time.

 

Also not that Maul had normal legs in that battle, so that factor at least comes into it.

 

Nonetheless these feats aside I still believe Maul would win. Ventress may or may not surpass him in terms of Force abilities but he remains the master and she the pupil. Her Force powers would not give her a considerable enough edge to win.

 

As much as I love Ventress, she would be just as soundly defeated by him as she was by Dooku.

 

P.S. Kudos for Kreia quote mefit

 

I essentially agree that Maul would win he showed plenty of skill with single blade combat in TPM so there is nothing saying he cant as well as being Juyo which would have an inherent strength against Makashi. especially when the Juyo is considered masterfull and the makashi is considered sloppy. While he has a double blade and that means some of the kenetic force is lost Ventress like-wise dual wields meaning she loses some range of motion and defense as well. Not to mention one of Juyo's other strengths is its unpredictability with having quick short powerful and seemingly unconnected attacks this is something his staff can play off of, in fact I would warrant to say that the staff catching the JK's off guard was just one more thing he used to play towards his forms strength it was one more unpredictable variable thrown into the equation. While ventress would not be thrown off by this his second blade does allow him to be even more unpredictable with his style which only supports him.

 

The saber staff maybe a weakness but I do not think that it should be considered a win if ventress cuts it in half he showed plenty of skill with a single blade fighting qui-gon on tattooine and besting obi-wan on Naboo both of which were using ataru forms which is aggressive showing that he is more then capable of taking that kind of onslaught. Even while single wielding I would give him a good shot of beating ventress.

 

As for getting into maul's mind I doubt ventress will be able to capitalize on this the only reason he went off the handles when he heard his master had betrayed him is BECAUSE he is his master, and the only reason he does so against Obi-wan in TCW is because obi-wan was the one that cut him in half. By TPM he hasn't been cut in half yet and has no reason to believe or even listen to anything ventress says she can talk all she wants it will fall under the category of talking to a machine. He just wont care, Dun Moch only works if the opponent listens or cares what you have to say and Maul wont give to shakes what ventress spews he is just there to kill her.

 

 

I do Also feel it unlikely that ventress's use of the force will give her any kind of a true edge as we see maul in TPM show at least the ability to use the force in combat with his use of it to open doors and push obi-wan down a shaft. Also I find it unlikely that ventress will even use force powers initially she has great pride in her saber skills and would likely try to use them to gain victory something that will suit maul greatly as physical combat is all he really strives to do. While I am sure she will start to use force powers in combat with her saber I feel it will likely just delay the inevitable as maul can just as easily throw the thing away as she can throw it at him. He may not prefer using force in combat but he has shown to be capable of it thus likely capable of defending against it.

Edited May 7, 2013 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

I entirely disagree, I think she could play some very detrimental mind games, I think her Makashi is highly refined, and whilst Maul's Juyo and niman combat techniques are very highly honed, his engagements clearly show a bias towards quick lightning fast combat rather than heavy kinetic attacks, which would be very hard to use whilst wielding a saberstaff.

 

I also believe that Ventress' prowess with the force is far beyond Maul's given the displays of Maul during the phantom menace and beforehand.

 

I also believe there is a clear difference between Maul as a Sith Assassin and Maul as a rogue Sith Warlord, the difference is very clear when you have read the books as well.

Quick lightning fast combat? What about when he fell on the defense for a full five minutes against two Ataru users with the tactical intention of luring them into a situation where they could be easily defeated? I'd say Maul can easily adapt. People seem to think that Maul's saberstaff is somehow a disadvantage, but he chose it as his personal weapon and used it to alarming effect. If anything Maul's weapon favours his style, to quote Wookieepedia:

 

The primary purpose of the double-bladed lightsaber was to allow for a faster rate of attack, unleashing a rapid assault with only a minimum of movement, "more slaughter per swing" as some put it.

 

Also note:

 

Saberstaffs were also excellent defensive weapons, as the doubled length of the weapon provided more surface area for deflecting and parrying.

 

And finally:

 

Unlike the traditional dueling techniques of most Jedi, Maul combined his swordsmanship with martial arts and hand-to-hand combat skills—a combination which made him a nearly unstoppable dervish of destruction. And whenever Maul encountered a foe he could not best through his martial prowess, he would fall back on his tactical know-how, outmaneuvering such enemies.

 

So Maul has both a vicious offensive and a powerful defense. Ventress may be able to hold out against his offensive but not for long because he is simply superior, while she will not be able to penetrate his defense. And if necessary, Maul can always switch to a single-blade to break through Ventress' Makashi - in fact he just very well might.

[LadyKulvax]

Ventress has shown exceptional command of the force, Maul has shown decent telekinetic skills and that is it, Ventress has many more things up her sleeve than Maul has shown.

 

Also, how is Maul not easily manipulated in combat? he is arrogant, prideful and has shown a lack of emotional control multiple times, he is also a Dathomir using the Dark Side, they are known to be highly emotional, Ventress should easily be able to play with his head.

 

Also Sidious was clearly playing with both Maul and his brother, he killed Oppress with ease and he was laughing the entire time before Maul gave up, trying to state Maul gave Sidious trouble is almost laughable to me, Sidious played with him, just like he played with Yoda.

 

And once again, the use of his saberstaff severely limits how much kinetic power he can put into his attacks, not like he would, given the clear fast paced style he preferred.

 

Makashi slaughters defensive combat as seen time and time again in duels and the claim that Maul is flatly the more skilled duellist is merely opinionated, not fact.

Edited May 7, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Aurbere]

Rayla makes a good point about Maul's saberstaff, which I will get to later.

 

In regard to the whole Maul's feats debate, I didn't really expect everyone to get hung up on this. Both sides make good points, but I would just like to add my two creds to the whole thing. It is highly likely that Maul's skills degraded or at least stagnated during his absence. Based upon his physical and mental state when Savage first encounters him, that is a fair possibility.

 

While the two incarnations of Maul are the same person, their fighting styles are drastically different. There can be no doubt that TPM Maul is skilled in both double-blade and single blade combat, but he primarily uses a double-blade. TCW Maul uses a single blade and Dun Moch. The change from the double-blade to the single blade and the addition of Dun Moch radically changes the way he fights.

 

So taking into consideration the above two paragraphs, it is not out of the question for Maul's TCW feats to be used for his TPM state. However, double-blade combat and single blade combat are very different styles. So while Maul's feats are credible, we should also remember that Maul is fighting differently in this particular scenario. Hope that makes sense.

 

Now back to Rayla's saberstaff argument. You are correct that Maul's saberstaff lacks the kinetic force that Juyo users can produce. In fact, it is very clear that Maul's style focuses on lightning fast attacks. However, while Maul isn't a power duelist, he has a solid defense.

 

I am confident that Maul could defend himself against Ventress' attacks. The only weak spot is his lightsaber hilt. However, resorting to single blade combat may actually help Maul as he would be able to use the more powerful and aggressive strikes of Juyo. Though the loss of his double-blade may be the beginning of the end.

 

Just want to quickly note that if it sounds like I am siding with anyone, point that out. I don't want to pick sides unless I have to.