Surrender?

[Ranasi]

is there any way to tell how much agro surrender drops? from what iv seen its VERY little. with most pug tanks i have to literally stop dpsing fairly early in the fight. guild tanks are a bit better but il still pull agro quit a bit if i go full throttle.

 

Sure you could say the tanks need to guard me but tanks only have so many guards to pass around and there are often other people that need guard as well

 

so im curious is there some trick to using surrender? i normally pop it after my initial burst of 2x CB > TS >AS >TS and then on CD.

 

otherwise maybe the devs could look into increasing the amount of agro dropped by surrender.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Ranasi

[SamuelAU]

I like how you managed to ask the question and simultaneously stroke your e-peen. If you really pumped out "close to" 3k DPS you should be the number one priority for being guarded. Post some logs! Edited May 6, 2013 by SamuelAU

[Punchy]

...im generating almost 3k dps on a boss...

 

Please prove this comment with a combat log uploaded to either torparse or askmrrobot in a fight that is over five minutes of sustained combat. A level 55 Operations Dummy will suffice. Otherwise, I think a lot of people are going to read this and have the same reaction that I did: "This post is riddled with bullsith"

 

Also, if you are pulling aggro so consistently, the tank should guard you. There is no reason why they shouldn't.

[Ranasi]

sigh people getting hung up on unimportant details. there took it out, the post was about surrender I could care less if people think the dps numbers i throw up are lagit.

[Punchy]

sigh people getting hung up on unimportant details. there took it out, the post was about surrender I could care less if people think the dps numbers i throw up are lagit.

 

Two people commented on your bold damage claim. At least you retracted it.

 

Surrender as a mechanic works fine. I believe it is a percentage-based threat drop that, on its own, will not see you losing threat (confirmation of numbers would be nice from someone knowledgeable). Depending on the boss fight, throttling may be needed (although I cannot think of an individual fight in this tier where doing so is necessary).

 

Pulling threat in the earlier stages of a fight sometimes is not that bad. A fair few tanks have resigned themselves to the fact that shortly post-engagement a DPS will pull aggro (I'm looking at you, Mr. Commando if you're ready this). Tanks should use this to their advantage and time a lovely taunt boost.

[nateslice]

My flashpoint experience is pretty limited, but when I've had to use Surrender it's always made enough of a difference for the tank to re-establish aggro.

 

The only time I've died from having aggro so far (apart from the occasional wipe), I didn't use Surrender because the tank was down and since I was #2 on the boss's aggro table, the duty fell to me to try to buy enough time for the tank to be combat-rezzed and healed.

 

So, yeah, Surrender seems pretty effective to me so far.

Edited May 7, 2013 by nateslice

[Darth_Dreselus]

Yes, you can put your log into torparse and see how much your threat decreased by when you used the dump. The client also does this.

 

Aggro is only an issue at the start of a fight so I am guessing you are quite bursty. The options are:

- trash - correct kill order, if you burst down the standards that the tank isn't touching he will have time build aggro

- bosses - either wait a gcd or two before engaging or open with lighter attacks and save cds 5-10s into the fight. If enrage is an issue inform the tank that you will burst a lot and use your threat drop as 3-5th gcd. If the tank does is opener correctly most problems should be gone. The tank may ask you to wait for some of his cds before pull in that case so please comply.

[Whojoo]

in some fights you have to give the tank some time to build threat before you start hitting the boss. This is expecially the case if the tank has to take multiple elites/bosses.

So try to wait a little in the start of the fight or take adds (which you should do anyway since you're dps).

 

I don't know how surrender works exactly, but i prefere not using it in the first moments of a fight. I want to use my rotation atleast 2-3 times just so i know in my head that I have a decent amount of threat and I am not wasting the surrender.

[SamuelAU]

in some fights you have to give the tank some time to build threat before you start hitting the boss. This is expecially the case if the tank has to take multiple elites/bosses.

So try to wait a little in the start of the fight or take adds (which you should do anyway since you're dps).

 

I don't know how surrender works exactly, but i prefere not using it in the first moments of a fight. I want to use my rotation atleast 2-3 times just so i know in my head that I have a decent amount of threat and I am not wasting the surrender.

Two to three rotations is 30 to 45 seconds. If you haven't pulled threat by then, you're not going to and don't need to use surrender.

 

Timing your threat drop is all about knowing what kind of damage you've already put out and being aware of your biggest hitters so you can time your threat drop before you get a big chunk of damage out.

[Roxas_kun]

If you're worried about generating too much aggro in the initial phase of any battle, start off with your DOTs and debuffs.

 

Don't go all out initially. Tanks always need time to build aggro.

[GeckoOBac]

Unless they've changed them recently, all threat drops in the game with the exception of focused defense, are -25% of your current threat (or in the case of rescue/extricate, of the target. Not sure about intercede/guardian leap).

 

Notice that target swapping due to threat is at 110% of current target for melee and 130% for ranged, meaning that ranged (really, anything outside 4m IIRC) will have a harder time pulling aggro in the first place.

 

Whether a threat drop is enough to make the npc lose interest in you depends entirely on the threat of the second highest player.

 

Also, due to how the taunt mechanics work in the game, any kind of fight where tank swapping is somewhat frequent will make it impossible for any non tank player to pull aggro unless there are boss threat dropping mechanics involved. For those who are not familiar with taunt mechanics, basically, aside from forcing attaks for 6 seconds on the taunter, they will also set the threat of the tank at +30% threat from the current threat holder (even if it's them), making them automatically getting aggro from the target regardless of the "forced attack" component.

 

Due to how most boss fights in ops work, it will be extremely difficult for tanks to ever lose aggro if not in the first few seconds of the fight, where dps will be burning through all their cooldowns/adrenals ("use it early, use it often"). In that case, threat dropping from the dps after their first rotation, combined with a tank taunt some seconds into the fight will make the gap very difficult to fill for the dps. (IE: in Nightmare EC, managing aggro on Firebrand & StormCaller was difficult as the dps check was very tight so dps couldn't really throttle at the beginning. Weaving an aoe taunt during the rotation solved all the threat issues as it was not required elsewhere in the fight)

[Ranasi]

Unless they've changed them recently, all threat drops in the game with the exception of focused defense, are -25% of your current threat (or in the case of rescue/extricate, of the target. Not sure about intercede/guardian leap).

 

Notice that target swapping due to threat is at 110% of current target for melee and 130% for ranged, meaning that ranged (really, anything outside 4m IIRC) will have a harder time pulling aggro in the first place.

 

Whether a threat drop is enough to make the npc lose interest in you depends entirely on the threat of the second highest player.

 

Also, due to how the taunt mechanics work in the game, any kind of fight where tank swapping is somewhat frequent will make it impossible for any non tank player to pull aggro unless there are boss threat dropping mechanics involved. For those who are not familiar with taunt mechanics, basically, aside from forcing attaks for 6 seconds on the taunter, they will also set the threat of the tank at +30% threat from the current threat holder (even if it's them), making them automatically getting aggro from the target regardless of the "forced attack" component.

 

Due to how most boss fights in ops work, it will be extremely difficult for tanks to ever lose aggro if not in the first few seconds of the fight, where dps will be burning through all their cooldowns/adrenals ("use it early, use it often"). In that case, threat dropping from the dps after their first rotation, combined with a tank taunt some seconds into the fight will make the gap very difficult to fill for the dps. (IE: in Nightmare EC, managing aggro on Firebrand & StormCaller was difficult as the dps check was very tight so dps couldn't really throttle at the beginning. Weaving an aoe taunt during the rotation solved all the threat issues as it was not required elsewhere in the fight)

 

cool thanks for that, had no idea about the 110%-130% difference between melee and ranged, il play around with torparse or w/e and pay attention to my agro. MOX didn't seem to pick up when i used surrender which is one of the reasons i thought id check the swtor player base^^

[Punchy]

If you're worried about generating too much aggro in the initial phase of any battle, start off with your DOTs and debuffs.

 

Don't go all out initially. Tanks always need time to build aggro.

 

DoT establishment is usually the opener for any class. Or post-opener (gotta love those pre-fight Orbital Strikes) in some cases, but they're always early on when initial threat is vital.

 

That being said, I disagree with the followup statement. The decision to go all out should depend on two factors: how absolutely crucial threat is in the early stages of that specific encounter, and how skilled your tank is at threat generation.

 

Stormcaller used to be the only boss-fight in the recent stages of the game where ripping aggro off of the tank could (very) potentially result in a wipe, although changes to Zorn's positioning used to be a real pain to deal with. Given how most fights are AoE-taunt friendly in the early stages (or you can force an unnecessary tank swap in others if absolutely necessary), going all out should be highly encouraged. I can go through a boss-by-boss rundown of how the tank should be able to handle losing aggro in the initial stages of the fight if needed.

 

Also, one request: if you know you are going to get threat no matter what (it's inevitable - you're a boss and your tank can't match your threat generation) then please wait until the tank has used some form of taunt to get the boss back before you hit your threat-drop. Referring to the above post:

Also, due to how the taunt mechanics work in the game, any kind of fight where tank swapping is somewhat frequent will make it impossible for any non tank player to pull aggro unless there are boss threat dropping mechanics involved. For those who are not familiar with taunt mechanics, basically, aside from forcing attaks for 6 seconds on the taunter, they will also set the threat of the tank at +30% threat from the current threat holder (even if it's them), making them automatically getting aggro from the target regardless of the "forced attack" component.

 

Lowering your threat before the tank undoubtedly responds to his/her loss of aggro with a taunt is reducing the effectiveness of that taunt. It is great practice to wait that extra GCD or so.

 

That being said, Gecko, I believe you're not quite right regarding the threat mechanics of taunt. I'm reasonably sure it sets the tank's threat to the amount that would be required to pull aggro off of him/her. Thus if you are say... standing directly inside the hitbox of your target, the increase to your threat would only be 10%, not 30%.

 

(Here's a quote linking to one of the indepth tanking guides to back up the above point):

Taunts in SW:TOR actually generate threat. The way a taunt works is that it will set your threat to the amount required to pull threat of the current target, even if that target is you. If you are with melee range that will put your threat at 110% and if you are at range that will be set to 130%.

[GeckoOBac]

Lowering your threat before the tank undoubtedly responds to his/her loss of aggro with a taunt is reducing the effectiveness of that taunt. It is great practice to wait that extra GCD or so.

I never talked about loss of aggro. What I mentioned are ways to avoid the loss of aggro in the first place. If the tank doesn't lose aggro and dps use drops while the tank uses one of his taunts, there will be no threat loss as the tank will be getting +threat over himself.

 

That being said, Gecko, I believe you're not quite right regarding the threat mechanics of taunt. I'm reasonably sure it sets the tank's threat to the amount that would be required to pull aggro off of him/her. Thus if you are say... standing directly inside the hitbox of your target, the increase to your threat would only be 10%, not 30%.

 

(Here's a quote linking to one of the indepth tanking guides to back up the above point):

 

This is possible, though I've always only read the +30% threat regarding taunt. However, whichever is the case, in pratical terms it's almost always a +30% threat as all the tank swaps are necessarily done at range. And even if it's just +10% over the tank's threat, it's incremental over the whole fight, making loss of aggro extremely difficult in any case where use of taunts is allowed/required.

[Whojoo]

Two to three rotations is 30 to 45 seconds. If you haven't pulled threat by then, you're not going to and don't need to use surrender.

 

Timing your threat drop is all about knowing what kind of damage you've already put out and being aware of your biggest hitters so you can time your threat drop before you get a big chunk of damage out.

 

Yea on second tought, 2 rotations is alot. In the end it all depends on the situation ofcourse.

 

Like people said earlier, if you keep agroing during a fight, ask for guard. Healer doesnt need it and it makes the tank's job easier.

[Punchy]

I never talked about loss of aggro. What I mentioned are ways to avoid the loss of aggro in the first place. If the tank doesn't lose aggro and dps use drops while the tank uses one of his taunts, there will be no threat loss as the tank will be getting +threat over himself.

 

Ah, you're right. I think I meant to throw that first part as a response to someone else. Either way, the point remains though. Mathematically speaking if you are going to lose threat, it is better to do so before a taunt. Say the tank has 10,000 threat on the target and a ranged DPS is pushing 12,500. If the tank were to taunt boost off of himself as the ranged DPS uses his drop, the tank will go to 13,000 (assuming he is outside the 4m buffer) and the ranged DPS will drop down (I think it's 25%?) to 9,375, creating a gap of 4,625 threat.

 

However, say the ranged DPS is going to pull aggro a GCD later if this didn't happen. Assume the next GCD has the tank at 11,000 threat (had to use a filler) and the ranged DPS is up to 14,500. The tank will go to 14,300 if he taunt-boosted off of himself at 11,000 threat and had the highest amount of threat. If the ranged DPS threat drops before the taunt, that is what he will be, and the DPS will not be too far behind. However. Say the tank taunts now.

 

They go to 18,850 threat. The DPS now threat dumps, going down to 10,875, creating a more significant gap of 7,975 threat.

 

Math is fun. In short - wait for the tank to taunt back before threat dumping. Usually, you will not drop threat purely by using Surrender - and the tank can benefit from you holding out.

 

This is possible, though I've always only read the +30% threat regarding taunt. However, whichever is the case, in pratical terms it's almost always a +30% threat as all the tank swaps are necessarily done at range. And even if it's just +10% over the tank's threat, it's incremental over the whole fight, making loss of aggro extremely difficult in any case where use of taunts is allowed/required.

 

For tank swaps, yes... and no. Whilst there are fights that we look to first when we think 'tank swap' (Toth and Zorn, Firebrand and Stormcaller, Dread Guard) - fights with multiple mobs that are separately tanked and swapped at range (although Dread Guards, where after the first phase of the fight, almost all tank swaps are done at point-blank range as Kelsara's tank should be attacking Ciphas almost exclusively). Then there are the fights such as Writhing Horror, where tank swapping is done point-blank. The offtank is going to be in melee range of the target... although the hitbox is massive and odds are you are outside the 4m range, the point remains. Thrasher is another example of this. Dread Master Styrak, another.

 

If you are using taunt-boosting to stack threat, then take note of your positioning. The effectiveness is severely impacted if you are one of those tanks that almost stands inside their target (or if you are tanking a target with a very small hitbox).

Edited May 9, 2013 by Punchy

[GeckoOBac]

Math is fun. In short - wait for the tank to taunt back before threat dumping. Usually, you will not drop threat purely by using Surrender - and the tank can benefit from you holding out.

That is true but I'd rather not lose aggro all =) Which isn't *that* hard tbh, at least when you know who's going to likely pull it in the first place.

 

 

 

For tank swaps, yes... and no. Whilst there are fights that we look to first when we think 'tank swap' (Toth and Zorn, Firebrand and Stormcaller, Dread Guard) - fights with multiple mobs that are separately tanked and swapped at range (although Dread Guards, where after the first phase of the fight, almost all tank swaps are done at point-blank range as Kelsara's tank should be attacking Ciphas almost exclusively). Then there are the fights such as Writhing Horror, where tank swapping is done point-blank. The offtank is going to be in melee range of the target... although the hitbox is massive and odds are you are outside the 4m range, the point remains. Thrasher is another example of this. Dread Master Styrak, another.

 

If you are using taunt-boosting to stack threat, then take note of your positioning. The effectiveness is severely impacted if you are one of those tanks that almost stands inside their target (or if you are tanking a target with a very small hitbox).

 

It doesn't really matter, as a cumulative +10% every 30 secs / 1 min will be more than enough to prevent any dps to outaggro you unless you are slacking or the boss drops aggro on the tank.

 

That said, the taunt "threat range" of bosses is a little different than the actual range from the boss (unless they've fixed it). In pratice, any boss which isn't human sized has a far small threat "box" than the actual hitbox of the boss.

 

About the Dread Guards though, IIRC kel'sara does an ability (either on the tank or on a random group member) which does a fair amount of damage and has an aoe component, albeit not big. This, combined with the doom puddles in second phase mean that we usually prefer spreading around than staying all clumped up.

Then again, during that fight, nobody should be hitting ciphas and kel'sara if not accidentally, so tank swapping on them will make losing aggro impossible by the time the first guy is dead.

Edited May 9, 2013 by GeckoOBac