easiest tank to play?

[goldnuggets]

so i have a 55 healer sorceror right now, and i want to try my hand at tanking. i always play healer in mmos so i want the easiest tank to learn. any suggestions?

[Ryat]

I believe the Vanguard/Powertech is the easiest to learn. Guardian/Juggernaut is the second while Assassin/Shadow is the hardest.

[Doulo]

Vanguard is simplest to pick up, with the smoothest energy management. That can make it boring to play.

Guardian is more active but takes a bit to get the rotation/priority down.

Shadows have a simple priority but must manage defensive CDs very carefully.

 

They each have their strengths and weaknesses and it comes down to how you want to play. If you just want to see what tanking is like, you will have to level on up to about 30 or so (~35 for a shadow) before any of them start to feel tanky. Until then you are just less squishy dps.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Doulo

[Hockaday]

I'll have to side with the PT/Vanguard being easiest. Especially for aoe threat. (imho).

[Nkya]

Vangards/powertech also gain their healer companion early in the game. Edited May 3, 2013 by Nkya

[goldnuggets]

i got a vanguard to 21 now and i really like it. it seems incredibly easy actually. im definitely better than some of the tanks ve had to heal =P. although, im sure i will get more skills and it will get more complicated. i think i could probly handle any tank class for sure, which begs the question, which is the most fun? im sure a lot of you have tried all 3, which do you prefer? Edited May 5, 2013 by goldnuggets

[WillLongstick]

I have all three tank classes in full 69s or better (Jugg is main). Once you play that much tanking, all 3 of them seem easy. Still, PT is easiest in terms of active mitigation and buffs you have to keep up, Jugg is easiest for always having a CD up, and Sin is easiest for having your rotation take the least buttons and never having to auto-attack.

 

Pre 2.0 this discussion would have been ended at the first mention of Powertechs, but they gained some levels of complexity while Juggs and Sins were simplified a bit.

[caveslug]

Adding flamethrower to the mix, didn't really add to the complexity for PT. They are still a very simple tank class, with almost anyone being able to pick one up with no problems.

 

Juggs feel a lot smoother tanking now, nothing changed much with the skills you use. Its just Bioware cleaned up their tank tree, before it felt thrown together an hour before the game went live.

 

Assassin feel very much the same tanking to me, other then they added another skill for you to click.

 

Easiest tank to play? all of them.

Easiest tank to pick up if you never tanked before, still going to be powertech / vanguard

 

Coolest tank atm, jugg / guardian, you can't beat AoE taunt / Saber reflect.

[Hockaday]

I have all three tank classes in full 69s or better (Jugg is main). Once you play that much tanking, all 3 of them seem easy. Still, PT is easiest in terms of active mitigation and buffs you have to keep up, Jugg is easiest for always having a CD up, and Sin is easiest for having your rotation take the least buttons and never having to auto-attack.

 

Pre 2.0 this discussion would have been ended at the first mention of Powertechs, but they gained some levels of complexity while Juggs and Sins were simplified a bit.

 

Sins weren't simplified, so I'm guessing you don't have one. We have another proc to watch, and can't just spam DW now.

[WillLongstick]

Removing Saber Strike from the Sin rotation is not simplifying?

 

And adding the Flame Thrower proc to PTs, the changes in Heat Blast, as well as the cooldown upgrades with Kolto Overload and Hydraulic Overrides did add complexity to the PT. Not much, but considering pre 2.0 the class' rotation was Rocket Punch and Flame Burst...

Edited May 5, 2013 by WillLongstick

[Hockaday]

Removing Saber Strike from the Sin rotation is not simplifying?

 

And adding the Flame Thrower proc to PTs, the changes in Heat Blast, as well as the cooldown upgrades with Kolto Overload and Hydraulic Overrides did add complexity to the PT. Not much, but considering pre 2.0 the class' rotation was Rocket Punch and Flame Burst...

 

Saber strike isn't removed, it's still used. We also use maul now, and can't spam Dark Ward. To me, that's not simplifying.

 

So...how is adding another ability, and removing the ability to just spawn Dark Ward simplifying?

Edited May 5, 2013 by Hockaday

[TheRampage]

I have vanguard and jugg tanks. In terms of easy I would say vanguard is easyer to get aggro and pick lost agro. But in terms of staying alive and making job easyer for everyone else - I feel much comfortable on my jugg (who is 66/69) then on my vanguard (69/72).

 

CD's are so damn good on jugg, so better then vanguard. Will level a shadow tank just to check him out.

Edited May 5, 2013 by TheRampage

[Hockaday]

I have vanguard and jugg tanks. In terms of easy I would say vanguard is easyer to get aggro and pick lost agro. But in terms of staying alive and making job easyer for everyone else - I feel much comfortable on my jugg (who is 66/69) then on my vanguard (69/72).

 

CD's are so damn good on jugg, so better then vanguard. Will level a shadow tank just to check him out.

 

Sin tanking is just different lol. I like it, you don't just pop cds when your low...I mean yeah you do, but they're more tactiful imho, so to avoid bigger hits altogether etc. I love it. I need to work on my jug again...so many cds lol, I have to figure out proper keybinding for him.

[Vaidinah]

Saber strike isn't removed, it's still used. We also use maul now, and can't spam Dark Ward. To me, that's not simplifying.

 

So...how is adding another ability, and removing the ability to just spawn Dark Ward simplifying?

 

You don't need to use Saber Strike at all anymore when you are actually tanking as the force you get back from shielding/deflecting attacks allows for Thrash to be the filler now.. I agree with you, though, that sins have not been simplified and are in fact, more complex now. Offensively, the main rotation pre-2.0 and after 2.0 is almost exactly the same. You use 2 Shocks + 1 Wither, use Chain Lightning with 3 stacks of HS and maintain your Discharge debuff.

 

The differences are mainly in the filler as before you just spam Saber Strike and occasionally use Thrash if you happened to shield/deflect enough attacks to have the force to afford it. Now, Thrash is your filler and you have a lot more opportunities to use Maul than you did Thrash pre-2.0 since it's proc-based.

 

Defensively, in pre.2.0, you just needed to maintain Dark Ward as much as possible. Now, maintaining the right balance between Dark Ward and Dark Bulwark stacks is definitely more complex and adds an interesting dynamic to our survivability.

[goldnuggets]

i have both jugg and vanguard at lvl 20 now, obviously still don't fully know whats up. if jugg gets more buttons i think im gunna have to buy a special MMO mouse with 50 buttons on it. also, the vanguard keeps threat on every mob with 0 problems, while the jugg has serious issues. obviously lvl 20 doesnt mean much, but the vanguard seems a lot more fun to play + better story by far. youve all scared me off of trying assassin. Edited May 6, 2013 by goldnuggets

[grallmate]

i have both jugg and vanguard at lvl 20 now, obviously still don't fully know whats up. if jugg gets more buttons i think im gunna have to buy a special MMO mouse with 50 buttons on it. also, the vanguard keeps threat on every mob with 0 problems, while the jugg has serious issues. obviously lvl 20 doesnt mean much, but the vanguard seems a lot more fun to play + better story by far. youve all scared me off of trying assassin.

 

Guardian AoE threat frankly sucks until 30, from there it just keeps getting easier and once you get Saber Reflect its stupid. I can hold mobs at 30m range until they die.... without attacking them once. Comparatively, Vanguard has the strongest AoE threat (thanks to Pulse Cannon and Mortar Volley before level 10) until 45 when Shadows get Slow Time.

 

Here are the impressions I get when playing my tanks, including mental commentaries:

- Guardian is all fast and furious, up in their face like "No, you'll pay attention to ME!"

- PT/Vanguard is all rough and ready smacking them around with his rifle going "Yeah come on, is that all you got?"

- Shadow is all smack, throw rock, use weird force ability, heal? going "Ner ne ner *blows raspberry*, you can't hit me"

- Jugg is like the Guardian in their face but talks like the Vanguard. All goading and tough.

- Assassin is all like lightning, *cackle*, smack you with my saber. In my mind he's saying "Oh yeah, you like that? Oh that one tickled... Now I'll stab you in the FACE!"

 

Personally, at the moment, I think the Guardian is in the best place followed closely by Shadow and a long way ahead of Vanguards. They've got a couple of universally good CDs, Saber Reflect which really gutted the massive edge Shadows had and Enure which is a life saver and I find it a LOT more useful than the small self heal CDs the other 2 tanks get.

 

Of course, none of that changes the Vanguard being hands down, the easiest to play well. I think Shadows are now clearly the hardest thanks to the simplifying of Guardian rotation and threat as well as the hit to Shadow armour DR.

[WillLongstick]

You don't need to use Saber Strike at all anymore when you are actually tanking as the force you get back from shielding/deflecting attacks allows for Thrash to be the filler now.. I agree with you, though, that sins have not been simplified and are in fact, more complex now. Offensively, the main rotation pre-2.0 and after 2.0 is almost exactly the same. You use 2 Shocks + 1 Wither, use Chain Lightning with 3 stacks of HS and maintain your Discharge debuff.

 

The differences are mainly in the filler as before you just spam Saber Strike and occasionally use Thrash if you happened to shield/deflect enough attacks to have the force to afford it. Now, Thrash is your filler and you have a lot more opportunities to use Maul than you did Thrash pre-2.0 since it's proc-based.

 

Defensively, in pre.2.0, you just needed to maintain Dark Ward as much as possible. Now, maintaining the right balance between Dark Ward and Dark Bulwark stacks is definitely more complex and adds an interesting dynamic to our survivability.

 

I don't like using front Maul in rotation, Thrash gives twice the chance to proc and Energized Shock. It's useful when you're trying to throw up a lot of damage on that given GCD, but otherwise the increased chance to proc Shock wins out. Dark Ward now costs no force, and gives you more stacks across its cooldown time. Sure, Dark Bulwark is interesting, but if you still have Dark Ward stacks up when the ability comes off cooldown you only have about a 5 second window to maximize Dark Bulwark uptime before you must refresh Dark Ward. Or, you can refresh Dark Ward on its 15 second cooldown and gain more survivability from it than you could pre 2.0.

[grallmate]

I don't like using front Maul in rotation, Thrash gives twice the chance to proc and Energized Shock. It's useful when you're trying to throw up a lot of damage on that given GCD, but otherwise the increased chance to proc Shock wins out. Dark Ward now costs no force, and gives you more stacks across its cooldown time. Sure, Dark Bulwark is interesting, but if you still have Dark Ward stacks up when the ability comes off cooldown you only have about a 5 second window to maximize Dark Bulwark uptime before you must refresh Dark Ward. Or, you can refresh Dark Ward on its 15 second cooldown and gain more survivability from it than you could pre 2.0.

 

KBN ran the numbers and IIRC the difference in survivability between Maul and Maul-less rotation was in the fractions of a percent while the Maul rotation had noticeably higher DPS (and TPS) over 50 DPS more. Dark Ward vs. Dark Bulwark is largely the same, a very small difference. There isn't any benefit to refreshing it early unless you're out of stacks of Ward but there is a small benefit to holding off until the stacks are about to expire.

 

Seems ironic that you want the marginally higher survivability rotation but don't follow the more noticeable increase in survivability by delaying the refresh on Dark Ward.

[KeyboardNinja]

KBN ran the numbers and IIRC the difference in survivability between Maul and Maul-less rotation was in the fractions of a percent while the Maul rotation had noticeably higher DPS (and TPS) over 50 DPS more. Dark Ward vs. Dark Bulwark is largely the same, a very small difference. There isn't any benefit to refreshing it early unless you're out of stacks of Ward but there is a small benefit to holding off until the stacks are about to expire.

 

Seems ironic that you want the marginally higher survivability rotation but don't follow the more noticeable increase in survivability by delaying the refresh on Dark Ward.

 

Yeah, I agree that's super-strange. Thrash does not have *twice* the chance to proc Energize. The probabilities are as follows:

 

Maul: 30%

Thrash: 1 - (1 - 0.3)(1 - 0.3) = 51%

 

Which is to say that Thrash has a 70% higher probability of procing Energize, not 100%. Conditional probability ftw…

 

The Energize proc has a comparatively marginal contribution to our HPS, and a proportionally smaller contribution to our effective survivability. Reducing the proc probability by 41% during Maul effectively reduces the proc-per-GCD probability by 4.19%, but that effect is rounding error compared to everything else.

 

Dark Bulwark, on the other hand, has a VERY dramatic effect on your survivability, and trimming its effectiveness will be much more noticeable than using the Maul proc.

 

In short, your argument doesn't make any sense. You're bending over backwards to ignore a primary proc in the name of increased survivability, and yet you're gimping your survivability by a much wider margin by similarly ignoring a primary counter-buff. Basically, it sounds to me like you just want to simplify your assassin tanking experience, which is fine, but don't deceive yourself into thinking that your playstyle is optimal in any sense of the word.

 

Coming back to your original point: assassin tanking is *dramatically* more complex than it was pre-2.0. Pre 2.0, the priority queue looked like this:

 

• Force Lightning
  
• Whither
  
• Shock
  
• Assassinate
  
• Discharge (to refresh debuff)
  
• Saber Strike
  

 

Post-2.0, you have the following:

 

• Force Lightning
  
• Whither
  
• Shock
  
• Assassinate
  
• Discharge (to refresh debuff)
  
• Maul (on proc)
  
• Thrash (if >35 force)
  
• Saber Strike
  

 

By any objective metric, that's more complex, particularly given that we have picked up not just one, but *two* procs (since we never used the Energize proc pre-2.0). Additionally, the Dark Ward / Dark Bulwark buff mechanic requires a significant amount of tracking effort in order to maximize effectiveness. All in all, if you believe that your assassin is simpler than it was pre-2.0, you are reaching that conclusion by broadly ignoring significant aspects of the class and playing at a highly sub-optimal level.

Edited May 6, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[Hockaday]

I agree that Saber strike isn't used very often anymore, I still use it enough to keep it on my bar I believe...I'll have to check the next time I'm tanking something though. But yes, thrash is much more heavily used.

[WillLongstick]

Please point to where I said I always refresh Dark Ward on CD. What I said was that you could refresh it on CD, and still get more survivability out of it than the pre-2.0 version. What I do with Dark Ward is to wait until the last stack of it has fallen off, whether that's from the stacks ticking from 1 to 0, or from the time out on them. Seems simple enough, don't refresh Dark Ward while you still have stacks of it.

 

I'll check out your Maul vs Thrash post, didn't know that had been worked out. I will say though, I play to maximize survivability so I'm not too concerned with DPS or TPS after my opening 15-20 seconds.

 

Back to the OP, all 3 tank classes are easy enough to learn. Just with Assassins you must remember to heal yourself and hit Dark Ward, and to never tell a diehard Sin tank that what they do is anything less than impossibly hard.

Edited May 6, 2013 by WillLongstick

[Vaidinah]

Coming back to your original point: assassin tanking is *dramatically* more complex than it was pre-2.0. Pre 2.0, the priority queue looked like this:

 

• Force Lightning
  
• Whither
  
• Shock
  
• Assassinate
  
• Discharge (to refresh debuff)
  
• Saber Strike
  

 

Post-2.0, you have the following:

 

• Force Lightning
  
• Whither
  
• Shock
  
• Assassinate
  
• Discharge (to refresh debuff)
  
• Maul (on proc)
  
• Thrash (if >35 force)
  
• Saber Strike
  

 

.

 

Okay, I don't want to derail this thread too much, but I think the OP has his answer so hopefully it won't bother him.

 

I have to disagree that sin tanking is more dramatically complex than before; the difference is significant as I explained, but not very much so. I'm fairly sure I've seen you post before that you do use Thrash rarely when you have excessive force available so I don't know why it's not on your pre-2.0 list of actions. After 2.0, I don't ever use Saber Strike while tanking so I'm unsure why you have it on your after 2.0 list. The list of offensive skills you should use is exactly the same number (7 with Assassinate) in both pre-2.0 and now. You just have more chances to use Maul now than you did Thrash in the past.

 

Defensively, there is the extra Bulwark stacks I mentioned before, the stronger Overcharge Saber, and the new Phase Walk. This isn't what I would think would be considered a dramatically more complex change to playing a Sin tank.

[TheRampage]

Guardian AoE threat frankly sucks until 30, from there it just keeps getting easier and once you get Saber Reflect its stupid. I can hold mobs at 30m range until they die.... without attacking them once. Comparatively, Vanguard has the strongest AoE threat (thanks to Pulse Cannon and Mortar Volley before level 10) until 45 when Shadows get Slow Time.

 

Here are the impressions I get when playing my tanks, including mental commentaries:

- Guardian is all fast and furious, up in their face like "No, you'll pay attention to ME!"

- PT/Vanguard is all rough and ready smacking them around with his rifle going "Yeah come on, is that all you got?"

- Shadow is all smack, throw rock, use weird force ability, heal? going "Ner ne ner *blows raspberry*, you can't hit me"

- Jugg is like the Guardian in their face but talks like the Vanguard. All goading and tough.

- Assassin is all like lightning, *cackle*, smack you with my saber. In my mind he's saying "Oh yeah, you like that? Oh that one tickled... Now I'll stab you in the FACE!"

 

Personally, at the moment, I think the Guardian is in the best place followed closely by Shadow and a long way ahead of Vanguards. They've got a couple of universally good CDs, Saber Reflect which really gutted the massive edge Shadows had and Enure which is a life saver and I find it a LOT more useful than the small self heal CDs the other 2 tanks get.

 

Of course, none of that changes the Vanguard being hands down, the easiest to play well. I think Shadows are now clearly the hardest thanks to the simplifying of Guardian rotation and threat as well as the hit to Shadow armour DR.

 

This.

 

when you compare vanguard to everything else I have feeling like it is unfinished class. Or unwanted child. One proper def cd and that is it. Compared to juggernaut...

[KeyboardNinja]

I have to disagree that sin tanking is more dramatically complex than before; the difference is significant as I explained, but not very much so. I'm fairly sure I've seen you post before that you do use Thrash rarely when you have excessive force available so I don't know why it's not on your pre-2.0 list of actions. After 2.0, I don't ever use Saber Strike while tanking so I'm unsure why you have it on your after 2.0 list. The list of offensive skills you should use is exactly the same number (7 with Assassinate) in both pre-2.0 and now. You just have more chances to use Maul now than you did Thrash in the past.

 

I do use Saber Strike while tanking if my force gets too low, which does happen on certain bosses (or if I'm off-tanking). As for Thrash, I only ever used it pre-2.0 to fish for the Energize proc during Recklessness, and I did it with the full knowledge that what I was doing was sub-optimal from a healing standpoint. Mathematically speaking, Thrash was *never* to be used pre-2.0 because the average swing timer was such that you didn't get enough force to use it. The only time we were tempted to use Thrash was on bosses with extremely high swing timers (basically, just TfB first phase). On all other bosses, if you were using Thrash, you were sacrificing healing and damage.

Edited May 6, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[Kitru]

when you compare vanguard to everything else I have feeling like it is unfinished class. Or unwanted child. One proper def cd and that is it. Compared to juggernaut...

 

It was stated either right before or right after release by the devs themselves that VG/PT tanking was designed to be as simple. Part of that design with simplicity in mind was limiting the number of cooldowns, abilities used, *and* ability interaction. The only complexity involved was in resource management, which could easily be summed up as "don't drop below 75%". VGs seem a bit "shallow" compared to Shadows and Guardians (especially after the rebuild that Guardians got with 2.0) but that's intended: "completing" them more would serve only to complicate them and be contradictory towards their intended simple design.

 

Honestly, the only tank spec that really felt "incomplete" to me was Guardian tanking pre-2.0: the cooldowns on attacks didn't sync, it didn't have a real cohesive mechanical theme, and damage was off especially when offtanking thanks to an overreliance on Riposte and retributive resource generation. 2.0 fixed most of those to really "complete" Guardian tanking.