Cae's Guide to Vanguard Tanking in 2.0

[Ancaglon]

Excellent write-up! Sticky please! (although Vanguard forum would be better than the shared one). Edited May 15, 2013 by Ancaglon

[Justcae]

You are very welcome guys. Is there anything you guys would like to see added to the guide in particular?

[Xadrek]

Cae

I have also got the same warhero relic in my Bounty Hunter PT currently. My sin Assassin Tank is using another PvP war hero relic... cant remember the name, currently at work. It pops like the Pve Relic you were talking about and increases defence by 400 odd. Sorry i havnt got the actual numbers.

 

I have found that both can pop seperately, the absorb and the defence within the 20 seconds or at the same time for the 6 second limit. and neither need to be pressed. I have found this to be very effective as a tanking relic.

 

P.s. Both have cannot work with a similar relic written into their description. but as 1 is absorb and the other is defence it works. I have found this very effective. would love your opinion

[HunterSpetsnaz]

I'm actualy full 72, i followed that guide but i feeel my vanguard is not mitigating damage correctly:

 

http://www.violentbydesign.org/tankstats.php

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=616779

 

Im dooing well, or I should ignore that guide and focus on Shield and Absortion?

 

My current numbers:

 

Health: 38226 HP (40206HP with Nano Stim blue)

Defense: 22'13% (903) (973 with Nano Stim blue) (with Set Bonus (4) )

Shield: 37'48% (787)

Absortion: 34'68% (425)

 

TORParse Log:

http://www.torparse.com/a/311871

- NOTE: The best try is the 8th, with 4 minutes more or les.

 

Any help will be awesome.

Edited July 3, 2013 by HunterSpetsnaz

[Darth_Dreselus]

I'm actualy full 72, i followed that guide but i feeel my vanguard is not mitigating damage correctly:

 

http://www.violentbydesign.org/tankstats.php

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=616779

 

Im dooing well, or I should ignore that guide and focus on Shield and Absortion?

 

My current numbers:

 

Health: 38226 HP (40206HP with Nano Stim blue)

Defense: 22'13% (903) (973 with Nano Stim blue) (with Set Bonus (4) )

Shield: 37'48% (787)

Absortion: 34'68% (425)

 

TORParse Log:

http://www.torparse.com/a/311871

- NOTE: The best try is the 8th, with 4 minutes more or les.

 

Any help will be awesome.

 

Essentially: Less HP (only take whatever End you get from End heavy armourings, unlettered mods/enhancements and datacrons, you can alo trade mit for end on 72 level by using Veracity ear/imp but at 75 KD seem better), Les Def (770ish with stim), more Shd (around 1100) and more abs (700ish). For detailed stats look at the OP, Dip's thread and KB' thread and essentially choose one as they are all very close and will not provide huge variance when it comes to mean mitigation.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

[Justcae]

Hey Guys,

 

Sorry, I have had to make it a point of staying away from the forum for the last little bit. With all the complaining about tanks in general as well as trying to work through my damage logs an figure out what the hell is going on in NiM that makes my Vanguard feel so squishy. I think I'll update the post on the main page with a section for current PvE raids and how the damage plays out. Especially if there is any interest. Now let me see if I can give you all some responses.

 

Again, sorry for the delay.

 

Cae

I have also got the same warhero relic in my Bounty Hunter PT currently. My sin Assassin Tank is using another PvP war hero relic... cant remember the name, currently at work. It pops like the Pve Relic you were talking about and increases defence by 400 odd. Sorry i havnt got the actual numbers.

 

I have found that both can pop seperately, the absorb and the defence within the 20 seconds or at the same time for the 6 second limit. and neither need to be pressed. I have found this to be very effective as a tanking relic.

 

P.s. Both have cannot work with a similar relic written into their description. but as 1 is absorb and the other is defence it works. I have found this very effective. would love your opinion

 

I honestly can not tell you how they work currently. I know they changed how they all worked together with one another. I can tell you this, before when I was testing this out I was using the PvE one which has always stated cannot be used with similar items, and the PvP 30% chance on damaage to increase defense by 400.

 

What I did to test this was go to Taris, round up 20-30 Rhakghouls and then just sit there for ~ 15 minutes watching and counting the the time between procs. The interesting interplay is that one relic requires a shielding defense event, and the PvP one is just 30% on any damage. Now with all those attacks incoming and just sitting there with my character panel open what I've found is that the following occured.

 

1) If they procced on the same attack/gcd they would both proc and you would be a happy tank.

 

2) If one of the other procced first (most often the 30% chance on inc damage) it locked them out for the 20s.

 

Now Bioware did major changes to how these all worked together when they tried to balance the PvP ones double stacking for PvE. They could very well work exactly how you say they do. In point of fact, I will just assume until i test again that they infact do work that way.

 

As far as my opinion on what you should do? Relics provide so little mitigation that no matter what you choose it comes down to play style. People can throw math at you all day long with ideal assumptions and blah blah blah. Each raid is different, assuming anything ideal in raiding as a whole is asinine. In the end your relics will basically not have any difference between them. If you find it is working for you, I'd tell you to go for it.

 

NiM Mode suggestion below

 

 

What I'm finding in NiM is that I want to have the Shield/Absorb clicky relic, to pair it with my Shield/Absorb Adrenal to function as an additional cooldown. You are going to have an extremely hard time as a Vanguard figuring out ways to ensure that your character performs in the newest tier of content. My humble suggestion is to make your relics function in symmetry. Stacking the above, along with your random absorb proc relic can give you the feeling like another cooldown in a cooldown starved class.

 

 

I'm actualy full 72, i followed that guide but i feeel my vanguard is not mitigating damage correctly:

 

http://www.violentbydesign.org/tankstats.php

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=616779

 

Im dooing well, or I should ignore that guide and focus on Shield and Absortion?

 

My current numbers:

 

Health: 38226 HP (40206HP with Nano Stim blue)

Defense: 22'13% (903) (973 with Nano Stim blue) (with Set Bonus (4) )

Shield: 37'48% (787)

Absortion: 34'68% (425)

 

TORParse Log:

http://www.torparse.com/a/311871

- NOTE: The best try is the 8th, with 4 minutes more or les.

 

Any help will be awesome.

 

Welcome to my Nightmare Hunter. The current Nightmare Mode is really not making for an enjoyable experience on my Vanguard. Depending on the fight it really makes you feel unbelievably squishy, something we are not use to at all on our Vanguards. The current content is absolutely the hardest content that Bioware has put out as far as tanking goes. I -will- do a detailed overview of this fight on the main page later on today because I can feel your frustration quite acutely.

 

Your stats...Darth_Dreselus pointed out something very similar to what I'd point out below. I'd lose a couple hundred points of defense, turn those into shield if you can by swapping augments out if you can. This will serve you even better in S+V. As I previously mentioned I'll do a write up on the boss damages that you are facing in NiM.

 

I don't have a problem with your HP, I run with 38.4k w/Stim because I've switched over to the High mitigation, Low Endurance mods to try and make myself somewhat more durable, and it has made so little difference as to be negligible. BUT, if you do have the mods still laying around, swap them out and see if you can tell any difference.

 

NiM Tips that I've deduced from getting face smashed on Dread Guards

 

 

1. Switch when Ciphas does his bubble channel. Debuffs are wiped after each lightning, never ever let them get past 4. If you switch immediately on the bubble, you can get away with 3 stacks, rather than 4 or 5.

 

2. When you get to phase two keep the bosses semi close so you can swap on 4 stacks rather than 5. There is a very short window between getting your 5th stack, and your debuffs from the previous boss falling off. Tank swaps should happen the moment these occur to limit that 5th stack and unnecessary damage.

 

 

I know that is not at all a eureka moment where I can point out what you're doing wrong. Its all small changes, and the biggest ones will be some strategy. It is very easy to get negative with the current progression an I think the best way for Vanguards going forward will be to lay it out for one another. So please other PT/VG that have figured out things, feel free to put them out there.

 

I'll start working on that raiding guide w/ Nightmare section and put it on the front page when I'm done. Stay tuned for update. Again, sorry for the late reply.

[Pirana]

Excellent guide.

 

I've played Shadow and Assassin for over a year now and wanted to try out a different tanking class and was pretty much clueless where to start in regards to Vanguard abilities, rotations, etc..

 

Appreciate the hard work.

[Dominoris]

I wish this could be stickied. I'll just have to bookmark it instead.

[Ayakin_Solaris]

Really excellent and thorough guide - well done! Even though I've been Vanguard tanking for a while I still found it useful. I was also glad to see that I've not been "doing it wrong"

 

Not sure that my current stat balance is right; probably don't have enough Defence. Unfortunately I can't check as my computer blew up on Sunday(!), but from memory I think I've got about 38% Shield chance, 38% Absorb and 17-18% Defence (including set bonus).

 

Think I've still got spare 72 Bulwark enhancements, so can re-balance quite easily. When I'm able to login and post my stats, I'd appreciate your input

[Justcae]

Thanks for the compliments guys. Been busy with some project in real life and when I've had time to break down the fights I'm almost getting mired in trying to figure out what people would actually want to know! As always, thanks again.

 

Really excellent and thorough guide - well done! Even though I've been Vanguard tanking for a while I still found it useful. I was also glad to see that I've not been "doing it wrong"

 

Not sure that my current stat balance is right; probably don't have enough Defence. Unfortunately I can't check as my computer blew up on Sunday(!), but from memory I think I've got about 38% Shield chance, 38% Absorb and 17-18% Defence (including set bonus).

 

Think I've still got spare 72 Bulwark enhancements, so can re-balance quite easily. When I'm able to login and post my stats, I'd appreciate your input

 

Your stats are right in the ballpark of where you want them. Every boss is going to be different based on which abilities may be shielded, and what percentage of his damage we are able to dodge. The damage difference you are going to see @ 20% dodge 35% abs, and 17'ish% dodge, and 38 % absorb is in the end going to feel very small. A fight like Dash'roode is going to favour the defense, whereas Kephess(TFB) is going to favour the absorb.

 

You aren't doing anything wrong. You're at the point where you have to talk to your healers and see what they are looking for. Smoother damage? Throw some of your Def/Abs augs into Shield. Too much damage on Dash'roode? Throw some defense in place of abs.

[Ayakin_Solaris]

As Adrenaline Rush is bugged atm, I'm thinking there's not much value in having the 2 points in Soldier's Grit on my skill tree.

 

I'm thinking of dropping it for 2 points in Tactical Tools or Soldier's Endurance - thoughts?

[Baron_Blackhack]

Hi Cae,

 

I would like to ask about using Gut, as I didn't see it in the rotation.. is this a skill worth including or not?

 

Thanks

 

*newbie tank

[Ayakin_Solaris]

Hi Cae,

 

I would like to ask about using Gut, as I didn't see it in the rotation.. is this a skill worth including or not?

 

Thanks

 

*newbie tank

 

If you've got your skill tree set-up right for tanking, you won't have gut as an ability you can use

[Baron_Blackhack]

Thanks for the reply.

 

My next question would be what augments should I put in all 14 slots? I used to be a dps vanguard before switching to tank. Shall I retain my aim augments?

 

Thank you for being patient with my questions.

[HunterSpetsnaz]

Thx for the guide!

 

I've Upgraded a bit my Gear full 72, and got luck with an Offhand and Gauntlets 75 from The Writhing Horror random drop:

 

HP: 40K+

Def: 20%~ {with the Set Bonus (4)]

Shield: 39.97%

Abs: 36'60%+

 

Any Suggestions?

 

PS: About the augments, I have all aguments with Shld/Pwr and Abs/Pwr.

[Justcae]

As Adrenaline Rush is bugged atm, I'm thinking there's not much value in having the 2 points in Soldier's Grit on my skill tree.

 

I'm thinking of dropping it for 2 points in Tactical Tools or Soldier's Endurance - thoughts?

 

I don`t know what it is bugged about it currently, as it was functioning last night when I was on Thrasher NiM. I think that the two talent points -are- weaker, but I`d absolutely take them over anything else that I have open in the Shield Specialist tree.

 

Wherein lies the problem that you bring up. Though I`d love to have a second point in tactical tools (makes double procc`ing PC so much easier), I just don`t have the freedom to do so with my remaining points.

 

You`re pretty much setup with having to take it. Though if you wanted to argue over taking something else in the Specialist tree I won`t call you wrong. It would simply be a different choice than i`d make. I actually find great use in Adrenaline Rush w/ the two points in it on Thrasher NiM, as you will absolutely get mauled on that fight at points, especially when your reactive is down.

 

Hi Cae,

 

I would like to ask about using Gut, as I didn't see it in the rotation.. is this a skill worth including or not?

 

Thanks

 

*newbie tank

 

As Ayakin pointed out, in a true tank build you will not have Gut. If you have Gut you'd have to give up Energy Blast which is a much stronger tanking skill.

 

Gut is a DPS skill that i've heard of Tanks taking in PvP, which i absolutely can not comment on. I do not PvP anymore and have not since 2.0 really. Energy blast is just so powerful when it comes to tanking in PvE content that there actually is not a valid argument for taking Gut over it.

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

My next question would be what augments should I put in all 14 slots? I used to be a dps vanguard before switching to tank. Shall I retain my aim augments?

 

Thank you for being patient with my questions.

 

The only thing i'd do with your current aim/end augments is keep them for a dps spec. You do not need them for the current content in game. The Vanguard class does not need to health stack.

 

Bosses do not hit you hard enough that losing the mitigation you'd gain through def/shield/abs aug's, would be outshone by the ~4500 health. You'll use your augments to balance your build based on whatever gear you've been able to pick up. Try to stay away from the purple augments until you are well into your 72 level gearing. My augments at that point became shield/abs too. At lower levels when I was just doing FP's defense gave me the biggest benefit. You'll find yourself drowning in defense later though, and craving more shield.

 

Thx for the guide!

 

I've Upgraded a bit my Gear full 72, and got luck with an Offhand and Gauntlets 75 from The Writhing Horror random drop:

 

HP: 40K+

Def: 20%~ {with the Set Bonus (4)]

Shield: 39.97%

Abs: 36'60%+

 

Any Suggestions?

 

PS: About the augments, I have all aguments with Shld/Pwr and Abs/Pwr.

 

First off congratulations on those Shadowed Drops. Consider me green! Most of our shadowed drops have gone to waste.

 

I do not have any big suggestions for you. The only two suggestions at this point for you are min/maxing per fight (which I myself do not do), and make sure you get the most out of your cd's. Both of those things could be helped by my damage chart which is unfortunately still incomplete for you all.

 

Great setup (almost 100% like mine, I've traded 1k health for absorb)

[Baron_Blackhack]

Thanks Cae. I'm in all 69 gear ATM and will be farming creds to buy those 72 mods as I feel that I can't do OPs yet (due to me being a newbie tank). So I would get shield/abs augments then?

 

Also, thanks for clarifying about Gut. was wondering about that.

[Ayakin_Solaris]

I don`t know what it is bugged about it currently, as it was functioning last night when I was on Thrasher NiM. I think that the two talent points -are- weaker, but I`d absolutely take them over anything else that I have open in the Shield Specialist tree.

 

Wherein lies the problem that you bring up. Though I`d love to have a second point in tactical tools (makes double procc`ing PC so much easier), I just don`t have the freedom to do so with my remaining points.

 

You`re pretty much setup with having to take it. Though if you wanted to argue over taking something else in the Specialist tree I won`t call you wrong. It would simply be a different choice than i`d make. I actually find great use in Adrenaline Rush w/ the two points in it on Thrasher NiM, as you will absolutely get mauled on that fight at points, especially when your reactive is down.

 

The Adrenaline Rush ability still works, but with the 2 points in Soldier's Grit, it's supposed to heal you even when your health is above 30%. The bug with the ability is that it doesn't do anything at all when your health is above 30%.

 

That makes it 's usefulness as a defensive cooldown limited - you can only pop it when your health is already below 30% and it offers no extra mitigation against big hits.

 

Therefore atm, the only real benefit from Soldier's Grit is the 5% alacrity bonus on Battle Focus, which is pretty pointless for a tank

[Ayakin_Solaris]

Thanks Cae. I'm in all 69 gear ATM and will be farming creds to buy those 72 mods as I feel that I can't do OPs yet (due to me being a newbie tank). So I would get shield/abs augments then?

 

Also, thanks for clarifying about Gut. was wondering about that.

 

If you are relatively new to tanking, you're better off spending time doing the lvl 55 HM flashpoints and the story mode lvl 55 ops; even the level 50 ops actually.

 

The best way to learn is through experience.

 

When you start on ops, you will make mistakes that will cause wipes, no matter how good your gear is; you just need to learn from them.

[Justcae]

The Adrenaline Rush ability still works, but with the 2 points in Soldier's Grit, it's supposed to heal you even when your health is above 30%. The bug with the ability is that it doesn't do anything at all when your health is above 30%.

 

That makes it 's usefulness as a defensive cooldown limited - you can only pop it when your health is already below 30% and it offers no extra mitigation against big hits.

 

Therefore atm, the only real benefit from Soldier's Grit is the 5% alacrity bonus on Battle Focus, which is pretty pointless for a tank

 

It actually does work, i think people may just be confused with how it does work.

 

When it fires and you are below 30% it will heal you once every 0.25s for 1.5% of your health (6%/sec). When you are over 30%, it heals you for the advertised 2%/sec (though is still broken into once every 0.25s).

 

The healing only occurs after it fires, not when you activate the ability and "Fired Up" is applied. Only after you've gone sub 30. Is the cooldown amazing? No. But it absolutely has it's uses, especially in the new nightmare modes.

 

For instance on Thrasher NiM. On our current strategy, when I'm knocked up I taunt while still in the air to get the snipers on me as fast as possible. The only problem is their burst, and the associated animation of picking yourself off the ground can lead to a very low health pool. I stagger my cooldowns to adjust for this, Reactive shield on the first knock, and Adrenaline Rush/Missiles on the 2nd. Riot Gas will be up basically every time (Double knockback not included). Because I can have the "Fired Up" buff for a minute, i can have the cooldown running when I am still waiting for use of my character. If the RNG doesn't appreciate me and I'm hit with 2 rounds (6 attacks) of non-dodged/non-shield damage you are looking at 36k damage. Depending on where you are starting or how that RNG works out Adrenaline Rush can be a life saver, especially accompanied with shoulder cannon fire.

 

But what all that is actually trying to say is that if you know you are in a hairy situation where you may be tanking more damage in a spike setting, or perhaps heals are limited the cooldown has it's specific use. I'll even go as far as to audible to healers after they've become use to the mechanic of using it.

 

I'd say Adrenaline Rush is the weakest of our cooldowns, but by learning where/when it actually is used will be absolutely functional.

[Justcae]

Thanks Cae. I'm in all 69 gear ATM and will be farming creds to buy those 72 mods as I feel that I can't do OPs yet (due to me being a newbie tank). So I would get shield/abs augments then?

 

Also, thanks for clarifying about Gut. was wondering about that.

 

Current HM OPs can be cleared by a raid in near full 63's without too much difficulty. You will have no problems gearwise doing any Pre-NiM content in full 69's. Depending on your gear layout, yes I would be putting your augments towards shield/abs. If you are swimming in absorb mods and not defense mods though, feel free to put whatever amount of absorb you were dedicating through augments towards it. Its a very important tanking stat, regardless of class.

 

Learning the fights will just be a learning experience, but I know I'll be happy to help you with tips and tricks if you have any questions about any fight.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Justcae

[imperialmerc]

How does 750 give you that much defense? I have 905 and I am at 20.15%, I would love to be enlightened.

[Justcae]

5% Base

4% Talent

2% 4 pc/bonus

9.09% Defense Rating (703)

_____

20.09% Defense

 

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/6501/9tvs.png

[Dragoon-]

Thank you, for this comprehensive and easy to read guide that introduced me to the world of Vanguard tanking.

[Justcae]

You're more than welcome. Front page is updated with Vanguard Tanking for HM DF, w/ HM DP to come.

 

If you guys have any further questions guys please feel free to ask.

 

Edit: DP added to the front page as well.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Justcae