Subscription: Advertisement vs Truth

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

See one post above you to see why it IS false advertising.

 

Subscribers do get full access to all character creation options at the moment. So its not false advertising (yet).

 

As a subscriber, monthly CCs are supposed to be used to get cartel packs or armor sets, they are not meant to unlock content, species, WZ, or operations. Because what is next? Will I have to use my CCs to unlock next WZ (if it gets released someday)? Or next operation? You do know that when you give a hand they take the arm, do you?

 

CC are meant for Cosmetics. And if there is one thing that a new species is in SWTOR...Its a cosmetic.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Arlbo_Nabbins

[branmakmuffin]

I meant, you cannot avoid paying if you subscribe. Hence why I view them as a "bonus" to my subscription -- not like I'm actually paying to have them.

If they had the option to pay less and get no CCs, would you do it? The value of a monthly sub is "access to the game + various sub conveniences + CC stipend," not "access to the game + various sub conveniences" and then 'Well, what the hey, we'll just throw in some CCs for giggles."

 

I view frequent flier miles as free -- and resulting rewards as "free." Technically they aren't -- I wasn't just handed them for no reason. Semantics may not be the right term to use -- but "free" is completely subjective in these two situations.

"Free" (as in "no cost") is not subjective. Either you had to pay for something or you didn't.

 

Unless you're purchasing a sub solely for the CCs, or are booking flights and/or spending money solely to get Frequent Flier Miles -- you probably view them as an added bonus. Which I personally can consider free if I'm getting them for doing something I would've done anyway.

No, I seriously doubt you'd pay the rate you do for a sub without the CCs given that there are things even subs have to unlock with CCs. No one would. If they took away the stipend, people would expect either a significantly lower monthly rate or everything included with a sub (which is what people are clamoring for).

Edited April 29, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Lostpenguins]

1. I took your words and made them a different color. Still your words and still your meaning.

 

2. I ignored the fact they you called me out on my obvious exaggeration of the "majority" statement because I never made that statement. I said the majority of posters on this thread were voicing displeasure or frustration, till the attack squad drowned them out.

1 - Yes, please highlight where I labeled you as

an immature, lying, moron

In fact, please let me know when I used the word "moron" with you. Oops... I didn't... clearly you were putting words into my post that are false. Try again.

2 - Wrong again. You said, exactly:

where the majority of paying customers are expressing frustration and displeasure

No where, in that post, does it say "on this thread". Now you're back-tracking on what you're saying because you've been caught in an obvious false statement. Once again, I laugh at your inability to keep from tripping over your own words.

 

I find it funny that in #1 you're trying to put words in my post... which is exactly what you're doing in #2 except now you're trying to put words into your post. Lol.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Lostpenguins

[Lostpenguins]

No, I seriously doubt you'd pay the rate you do for a sub without the CCs given that there are things even subs have to unlock with CCs. No one would. If they took away the stipend, people would expect either a significantly lower monthly rate or everything included with a sub (which is what people are clamoring for).

No, I get exactly what I got before the CM Market came out. Now there's a bunch of vanity items that I don't care about and the coins are piling up. If anything, I used my coins to give me free unlocks instead of paying in game credits, so the free coins are only a bonus for me where I could have still used in game credits to unlock what I did. Why would i expect to pay less for the exact same features I've been getting since day 1? In fact, I now have more features such as a customizeable UI, more action bars... I didn't have to pay any more for any of those.

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

Already spoke on this.

 

And you are still making unsubstantaited claims.

 

The race would not change the cost of a expansion by that much... especially one that doesnt have a new starting area.

 

And you know this how? Thats right you don't. Even if it was a few dollars extra that would be cash that all subscribers would need to hand over even if they don't want that cosmetic unlock..

 

You are correct, races are not free in most MMOs. They usually come in expansion packs with new starting areas to go with them.

 

So, you admit that its normal to pay for them. So what is the issue that in SWTO you also pay for them, and a relatively small amount at that.

[Kilora]

No, I seriously doubt you'd pay the rate you do for a sub without the CCs given that there are things even subs have to unlock with CCs. No one would. If they took away the stipend, people would expect either a significantly lower monthly rate or everything included with a sub (which is what people are clamoring for).

 

Wrong. There isn't a single thing I need CCs for.

 

I played from launch until ~1 week before 1.3 dropped. Came back right as 1.7 dropped, and immediately subbed again. Had NO idea what Cartel Coins were, or that I would get any as a sub. Take away my CC stipend? I'll gladly continue to pay the $15 that I paid from the start. . . .

 

I couldn't care less about these fluff items. If I want them, I buy them off of the GTN. Otherwise, I play my game and don't whine about not getting what I want.

 

 

I'd like a male version of the slave-girl outfit. I should start a thread screaming about that until I get it, no?

[Lostpenguins]

So, you admit that its normal to pay for them. So what is the issue that in SWTO you also pay for them, and a relatively small amount at that.

And that's not even true if he's getting free coins every month for being a sub.

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

Because paying for something with out of game currency which should be available via in game currency is wrong. And it sets a bad precedence for future updates. Also his shows BW have broken their promise before f2p that cathar and other content updates would be free.

 

Cathar is not content, its a Cosmetic item.

 

Making a Cathar character changes nothing in the game other then physical appearance.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Arlbo_Nabbins

[branmakmuffin]

Wrong. There isn't a single thing I need CCs for.

I agree. There's nothing you (or I or any subscriber) need CC for. But you wouldn't unilaterally give up your monthly CCs if the price remained the same. You can disagree if it makes you feel better.

 

And that's not even true if he's getting free coins every month for being a sub.

I wish someone would tell me how I can get these supposedly free CCs (beyond the 100 for the sec key).

Edited April 29, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Kilora]

I agree. There's nothing you (or I or any subscriber) need CC for. But you wouldn't unilaterally give up your monthly CCs if the price remained the same. You can disagree if it makes you feel better.

 

i just told you I would. . . .

 

But thank you for having the audacity to tell me what I would or wouldn't do. . . .Arrogance won't help you win a disagreement.

 

 

Once again. I came back after F2P went live, and immediately re-subbed. Why? Because I enjoy the game, and $15/mo is what I've been paying for the last 10 years or so to play an MMO in some way. I STILL consider this a better investment than a good portion of games I paid for, with OR without the CCs.

 

I didn't know CCs existed, or what they were, or that I would get any for free when I re-subbed. So -- complete surprise bonus for me. I don't care about the CM at all, so it's existence (and, the stipend's existence) will not influence my willingness to pay $15/mo at all.

[CosmicKat]

2 - Wrong again. You said, exactly:

No where, in that post, does it say "on this thread". Now you're back-tracking on what you're saying because you've been caught in an obvious false statement. Once again, I laugh at your inability to keep from tripping over your own words.

 

I find it funny that in #1 you're trying to put words in my post... which is exactly what you're doing in #2 except now you're trying to put words into your post. Lol.

 

Oops. You are correct. I meant to say "on this thread".

[Lostpenguins]

I agree. There's nothing you (or I or any subscriber) need CC for. But you wouldn't unilaterally give up your monthly CCs if the price remained the same. You can disagree if it makes you feel better.

But I didn't expect the price to go up when they started giving those CC coins away either. The CC's are a bonus reward for being a sub. Stop looking at it like you're paying for CC coins... you're not. You're getting them as a bonus reward and instead your biting the hand that feeds you. You have a way, w/out spending a single add'l sent from what you were doing when you first played this game, to unlock a new, playable race. And instead all you can do is complain about it. While, someone like me, is glad that I don't have to pay to unlock a race I'll never care to use.

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

I'm happy because I would rather you guys charge for this stuff over actual content. However, I dont think people are concerned with whether or not you change the wording. i think they're concerned that when F2P launched, subscriptions had certain clearly stated benefits over F2P, but now you're going back on your word and no longer providing one of these benefits. Instead of subscribers getting ALL character customization options included in our sub, we now only get MORE. To some, this makes it feel like subscriptions are losing their value.

 

They are not going back on their word, they said subscribers would get game content for free outside expansions. And that is what they have done. Cathar are a wholly cosmetic change, they are no more new content than playing a human in a set of cartel armour rather than original levelling reward gear.

 

If even subscribers have to pay for this new species, I would hope that new voice overs have been recorded to provide custom dialog when playing the Cathar.

 

Highly unlikely, as you noted no other race gets its own dialogue.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Arlbo_Nabbins

[Lostpenguins]

Oops. You are correct. I meant to say "on this thread".

Well, you didn't.

 

However, when you post something on the forums you are leaving it open for anyone to come in and put their thoughts on it as well. And my thoughts are, "You're ridiculous for complaining".

1 - It's not false advertising

2 - Subs can still get the race for free

3 - Options are better than being forced to pay to unlock a race that some users will never play

 

But instead, all of these people complaining want it handed to them on a silver platter and blatantly disregard how easy and completely free it is to unlock the new race.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Lostpenguins

[Ramalina]

This is largely a value vs pricing issue. How much of the game do you get for a subscription? All of it, or some of it?

 

The tradition has been all, but in trying to find a way to drive traffic up with F2P without going to a public broadcasting fund drive income strategy they introduced a la carte payment. I think what they've found is that subscribers will also pay for a la carte items, beyond the bulk purchase that is the subscription. This of course leads to the idea of having subscribers be encouraged to buy as much a la carte content as possible.

 

Is subscription worth it after that kind of pricing structure change? That's an individual opinion, and you vote with your money. For me cosmetic crap is cosmetic crap for the most part, but the story driven questing is amazing. If they use the money for expensive time consuming story content that I love, I'll stick around. If it's all spent on modeling cartel pack items, I'll ditch SWToR when I run out of class quests that I haven't done.

 

They are a business and have to do what provides a revenue stream. If enough people buy vanity items, they make vanity items. If revenue comes from people doing ops/pvp you get ops and pvp. If it becomes apparent that story driven content also drives revenue stream then there will be more story.

 

It's also possible that they made mistakes with setting subscription prices, and now are stuck with a retail price that's below real cost and have sort of a devil's choice between raising subscription rates and charging for every little content addition via cartel coins.

 

* Oh, and unless someone else is buying the subscription for you, subscribers don't get stuff for free in game. They pay for it. Unless of course you use a very strange system of accounting. Just cause the money automatically disappears when the recurring sub recurs, does not mean you are not paying. You ARE paying. Whether you remember that you're paying is another matter entirely.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Ramalina

[branmakmuffin]

They are a business and have to do what provides a revenue stream. If enough people buy vanity items, they make vanity items. If revenue comes from people doing ops/pvp you get ops and pvp. If it becomes apparent that story driven content also drives revenue stream then there will be more story.

The game can't exist in the form of characters running around the fleet getting haircuts, changing armor colors and re-skinning their avatars. That's Second Life. There has to be at some point more PvE adventuring content.

 

It's also possible that they made mistakes with setting subscription prices, and now are stuck with a retail price that's below real cost and have sort of a devil's choice between raising subscription rates and charging for every little content addition via cartel coins.

Every little cosmetic and convenience option will be a CM item. Adventuring content will not be.

Edited April 29, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

That's called bait and switch advertising. Its illegal in most places where the Government actually care about its citizens.

 

Only in your world. In the real world its not bait and switch advertising.

[Lostpenguins]

The game can't exist in the form of characters running around the fleet getting haircuts, changing armor colors and re-skinning their avatars. That's Second Life. There has to be at some point more PvE adventuring content.

 

Every little cosmetic and convenience option will be a CM item. Adventuring content will not be.

There is plenty of PvE adventuring content. Failing to acknowledge that is absurd.

[branmakmuffin]

There is plenty of PvE adventuring content. Failing to acknowledge that is absurd.

I said at some point there will have to be more adventuring content. The alternative is that the game will have the same quests it has now until it folds. Now that's absurd.

[Kilora]

I said at some point there will have to be more adventuring content. The alternative is that the game will have the same quests it has now until it folds. Now that's absurd.

 

We did just get 10+ hours of aventuring content. . . .

 

Not that BW should expect it to hold us over for months -- but it is still better than nothing.

[CosmicKat]

Well, you didn't.

 

However, when you post something on the forums you are leaving it open for anyone to come in and put their thoughts on it as well. And my thoughts are, "You're ridiculous for complaining".

1 - It's not false advertising

2 - Subs can still get the race for free

3 - Options are better than being forced to pay to unlock a race that some users will never play

 

But instead, all of these people complaining want it handed to them on a silver platter and blatantly disregard how easy and completely free it is to unlock the new race.

 

Must... resist....

 

It's no use....

 

While attacking me for making an exaggeration you do a super leap to this.... "...all of these people complaining want it handed to them on a silver platter and blatantly disregard...."

 

At least my mistake was in poor wording of "the majority", even I wouldn't be so bold as to presume ALL people who disagree with me are whiners with entitlement issues. Classic.

[branmakmuffin]

We did just get 10+ hours of aventuring content.

"I said at some point there will have to be more adventuring content."

 

Verb tenses FTW.

[Alec_Fortescue]

We are not getting 500 coins for free... They are part of the sub -_-

[LrdRahvin]

"I said at some point there will have to be more adventuring content."

 

Verb tenses FTW.

 

Please to explain, what be verb tenses? I would be interesting know?

[Gordoma]

I believe the issue that you wanted to have addressed is that currently it states "Full access to all character creation choices." As of this moment this terminology is still correct as subscribers do have full access to those choices. We will be updating that page (along with any others that make similar references) once Game Update 2.1 goes live.

 

Yikes! I would recommend you put 2.1 on the PTS before taking it live. Eric, I question the long-term cost/benefit of reword terms of agreement to meet quarterly earnings expectations. Really look at the vast MMO options people have and what quality of life features are expected in an a game and what is just fluff.

 

My two cents: This game already has a serious lack of species options. If you want to start charging for them, you should introduce 10 and charge for 3... sounds extreme, but consider how many people will defect to other games if you over do it and then realize Star Wars has a reputation for diversity.