Subscription: Advertisement vs Truth

[Sharee]

You paid a 15 dollar sub before the game became free for everyone. The second the game became free, for everyone to play, is the second the value of a subscription went down.

 

If it was worth $15/month before, and i am getting exactly the same thing today, it is still worth $15 to me. The game didn't lose anything from my point of view.

Only in your mind is there any less value. The game does not have any 'less value' for me just because of what other people may or may not get for free.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Sharee

[Kilora]

What you fail to see is that they are making moves that people are unpleased with. You may not be but other people are. Now you are arguing against what they are unhappy with because you are ok with it. When you are not ok with something you will voice your opinion and be on the other side of the fence. Dont be a hypocrit.

 

They are showing a precendence though. Pre F2P cathar and the expansion were meant as a non paid update. Since F2P they had a short time event. HK51 and a new Op. They said we would get free content updates every 6-8 weeks. Makeb hit the area of the 6-8 weeks.... we paid for that. The next update people will have to pay and continuously pay to utilize. So there is 12-16 weeks of updates that cost extra money in a row. There is your precedence. On top of that... the majority of the updates have mostly dealt with the cartel market. They had problems adding gear and mounts and other vanity stuff to the game before the market hit. Afterwords they are able to do so weekly to monthly. Odd how that works. They also almost charged for HK-51. If not for the "whining" on the forums they would have.

 

Excuse me? I'm not arguing against people being unhappy. I'm saying be an adult about it and leave. If you REALLY think the game is taking a turn that you don't want -- stopping all cash flow into the game is the only way to get EAs attention.

 

Here? On the forums? You're just getting some people to join the hate-wagon, and others coming in and telling you they have no problem with it. And then everyone starts attacking eachother.

 

 

You're pulling things out of your *** to make your argument sound better, and I couldn't care less. Expacs are almost always paid content. Welcome to the MMO world. 2.0 brought a MASSIVE amount of changes -- and I'm sorry, how much did you pay for that? Seems to me 1.7 brought us a new WZ and an event. 2.0 brought us massive changes made across the board. 2.1, as far as we know, is called "Customization" and will include many things. Considering we have NO idea when that will come out, or what else will be in it -- I'd love to borrow your crystal ball.

 

It's no secret that they had massive financial problems after the launch of this game. THAT is why RotHC/Cathar are not free. They cannot afford to run the game and give that crap away. With the exception of the unlock to be able to use Cathar -- most other games charge RL$ for re-customization of character. Race changes are all RL$.

 

There is no precedence here for continued "exploitation" of subscribers. I have no interest in cathar -- and those that do, will either pay for it willingly or use their CC for the unlock.

 

And really? You're seeing cartel market updates frequently because it's all reskin/recolor crap that was already in the game. Not too hard to plop that garbage out quickly. . . and it has absolutely nothing to do with work on any other piece of the game.

[Kilora]

To me it is part of character creation which I supposedly have full access to, according to the swtor/free page, and according to Blaine Christine during a livestream.

 

Species should either come with expansions or be free for subs, re-customization should be free always, or in game currency.

 

Whether or not is *should* is your opinion. You're welcome to have it -- but it isn't free, and likely won't change. End of story, really.

 

On a semi-related note -- have we even been told that there WON'T be an unlock item for Cathar? That could be traded or sold?

[Soluss]

If it was worth $15/month before, and i am getting exactly the same thing today, it is still worth $15 to me. The game didn't lose anything from my point of view.

Only in your mind is there any less value. The game does not have any 'less value' for me just because of what other people may or may not get for free.

 

You dont know the value of the dollar. 80+% of the game is free for everyone. That means that 100% subscription rate is way over value. If everyone got a free happy meal at mcdonalds except the toy then a happy meal wouldnt be worth full cost to get the 50 cent toy.

[Kilora]

You dont know the value of the dollar. 80+% of the game is free for everyone. That means that 100% subscription rate is way over value. If everyone got a free happy meal at mcdonalds except the toy then a happy meal wouldnt be worth full cost to get the 50 cent toy.

 

You're entire post is pointless based on the fact that the other person said "It's worth $15 TO ME."

 

You cannot argue to someone that the value they place on something is wrong. And I happen to agree with the other poster -- I continue to pay $15/mo because the game is worth at LEAST the $15/mo, TO ME.

 

If it isn't worth $15/mo for you -- you don't have to subscribe. Or play.

[Shoogli]

Species should either come with expansions or be free for subs

 

Especially when, as Solluss pointed out earlier, there is no starter zone accompanying said new specie and no added content except a texturing recolour. Gone will be this specific cranial shape that really made them stand apart and cathar seem to now only be another human recolour. Here and here for example.

[Soluss]

Excuse me? I'm not arguing against people being unhappy. I'm saying be an adult about it and leave. If you REALLY think the game is taking a turn that you don't want -- stopping all cash flow into the game is the only way to get EAs attention.

 

Why is that always everyones answer... just leave the game. I happen to enjoy the game but speak up about things that I dont like. If you got a problem with that then perhaps you need to leave the forums. I dont need to leave a game because I dislike a few things. I have every right to voice my opinion to a company that I am a customer of.

 

Here? On the forums? You're just getting some people to join the hate-wagon, and others coming in and telling you they have no problem with it. And then everyone starts attacking eachother.

 

If people spew hate and start fights with each other then they need to grow up.

 

You're pulling things out of your *** to make your argument sound better, and I couldn't care less. Expacs are almost always paid content. Welcome to the MMO world. 2.0 brought a MASSIVE amount of changes -- and I'm sorry, how much did you pay for that? Seems to me 1.7 brought us a new WZ and an event. 2.0 brought us massive changes made across the board. 2.1, as far as we know, is called "Customization" and will include many things. Considering we have NO idea when that will come out, or what else will be in it -- I'd love to borrow your crystal ball.

 

Never said expansions dont cost money. I said races dont drastically raise the cost of an expansion, especially ones that dont come with new starting areas. Show me an MMO that charge for an expansion without a race included and then proceeded to charge for a new race the very next update. Now show me a AAA MMO that charges people real money to sit and use the barbershop. Lotro dont. Rift dont. WoW dont. I cant think of one that does. Its not hard to see the direction of the company man. You dont need a crystal ball. All you need is some common sense and make an educated guess.

It's no secret that they had massive financial problems after the launch of this game. THAT is why RotHC/Cathar are not free. They cannot afford to run the game and give that crap away. With the exception of the unlock to be able to use Cathar -- most other games charge RL$ for re-customization of character. Race changes are all RL$.

There is no precedence here for continued "exploitation" of subscribers. I have no interest in cathar -- and those that do, will either pay for it willingly or use their CC for the unlock.

 

Keep kidding yourself. EA will exploit the hell out of their customers. That is what they are known for. Just because you are ok with it doesnt mean they arent doing it.

And really? You're seeing cartel market updates frequently because it's all reskin/recolor crap that was already in the game. Not too hard to plop that garbage out quickly. . . and it has absolutely nothing to do with work on any other piece of the game.

 

Really? When did they plop that "garbage" out pre F2P. Oh thats right they didnt. Thanks for proving my point.

[Soluss]

You're entire post is pointless based on the fact that the other person said "It's worth $15 TO ME."

 

You cannot argue to someone that the value they place on something is wrong. And I happen to agree with the other poster -- I continue to pay $15/mo because the game is worth at LEAST the $15/mo, TO ME.

 

If it isn't worth $15/mo for you -- you don't have to subscribe. Or play.

 

Just because its worth 15 bucks a month to YOU, doesnt make its value worth 15 bucks no matter how you cut it. If I thought a pack of bubble gum was worth 10 bucks that doesnt mean its worth 10 bucks. The value of the game is no longer 15 bucks when 80+% of it is free for everyone.

[Sharee]

You dont know the value of the dollar. 80+% of the game is free for everyone. That means that 100% subscription rate is way over value. If everyone got a free happy meal at mcdonalds except the toy then a happy meal wouldnt be worth full cost to get the 50 cent toy.

 

I know what i got for the dollar back then is the exact same thing i get for the same dolar today. I am a player, not an accountant. From my perspective, there is no loss of value. Any loss you see as a subscriber is only imaginary.

 

And since we are using real world examples: You own a house worth $1 000 000. You will never sell it(for whatever reason). Suddenly the price of houses across the whole market drops 90% Technically you just lost $900 000. But in reality, it does not affect you at all. You are not an accountant, you live in that house. You will never sell it. Any price fluctuations do not concern you at all.

 

Similarly, as long as i remain a subscriber, i do not care about your 'perceived value' of that subscription, i only care about the content i can access for my money, and that one has not changed at all, thus F2P does not devalue my experience in any way.

[Kilora]

Just because its worth 15 bucks a month to YOU, doesnt make its value worth 15 bucks no matter how you cut it. If I thought a pack of bubble gum was worth 10 bucks that doesnt mean its worth 10 bucks. The value of the game is no longer 15 bucks when 80+% of it is free for everyone.

 

So, you completely missed the point of the other person's post? Is that what you're saying?

 

And strange -- public perception ALWAYS raises the price on things. "Designer" apparel? You're paying for a name.

 

 

The point is. The other person was pointing out that pre- and post- F2P the sub has been $15. Like many others, (s)he continued to subscribe because they wanted to -- and got a free 500 CC/mo (or more) for doing so. AND -- they gave us subs CC for previous subscription time.

 

They didn't have to do that. If they didn't -- they wouldn't've had to lower the price of the sub, either. People would've still played the game. People who would've subbed either way *mostly* view them as a "free" allowance. Whether or not you consider them free doesn't really matter.

[Soluss]

I know what i got for the dollar back then is the exact same thing i get for the same dolar today. I am a player, not an accountant. From my perspective, there is no loss of value. Any loss you see as a subscriber is only imaginary.

 

And since we are using real world examples: You own a house worth $1 000 000. You will never sell it(for whatever reason). Suddenly the price of houses across the whole market drops 90% Technically you just lost $900 000. But in reality, it does not affect you at all. You are not an accountant, you live in that house. You will never sell it. Any price fluctuations do not concern you at all.

 

Similarly, as long as i remain a subscriber, i do not care about your 'perceived value' of that subscription, i only care about the content i can access for my money, and that one has not changed at all, thus F2P does not devalue my experience in any way.

 

As I said, you dont know the value of a dollar. Your opinion is fine. I just dont share it. What you got for 15 bucks back then is what people get for free now, about 80% of it anyways. When things become free they are no longer worth money. You are essentially paying for unlimited access to warzones/flashpoints and operations. That value is 10 bucks. 5 bucks goes towards your "free cartel coins". Its fine if you think its worth it. It actually is worth it. Im arguing that the coins are not free because they are not.

 

If you dont care that you lost 900 grand in value of your house you are crazy. I dont think anyone would be happy about that. I dont care how much of a ToR supporter you are. On top of that, it does effect you. It effects you a great deal but thats off topic.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Soluss

[Soluss]

So, you completely missed the point of the other person's post? Is that what you're saying?

 

And strange -- public perception ALWAYS raises the price on things. "Designer" apparel? You're paying for a name.

 

 

The point is. The other person was pointing out that pre- and post- F2P the sub has been $15. Like many others, (s)he continued to subscribe because they wanted to -- and got a free 500 CC/mo (or more) for doing so. AND -- they gave us subs CC for previous subscription time.

 

They didn't have to do that. If they didn't -- they wouldn't've had to lower the price of the sub, either. People would've still played the game. People who would've subbed either way *mostly* view them as a "free" allowance. Whether or not you consider them free doesn't really matter.

 

I didnt miss any point.

[Sharee]

If you dont care that you lost 900 grand in value of your house you are crazy. I dont think anyone would be happy about that.

 

I did not say happy, i said indifferent. Loss of 900 grand in value of a house you will never sell is totally meaningless. That's my entire point. If you do not understand that, then it's no wonder you don't understand my stance on SWTOR subscription value.

[Ziso]

If Cathar is 600 CC I would have thought it would of made more sense to make it 500CC so subscribers can then unlock the species with their next instalment of free CC from being a subscriber. By putting it to 600 they either have to wait another month or buy another 100 coins and I think this has been done delibratly to sell more coins and from a subscribers point of view makes them look greedy

[Kilora]

Never said expansions dont cost money. I said races dont drastically raise the cost of an expansion, especially ones that dont come with new starting areas. Show me an MMO that charge for an expansion without a race included and then proceeded to charge for a new race the very next update. Now show me a AAA MMO that charges people real money to sit and use the barbershop. Lotro dont. Rift dont. WoW dont. I cant think of one that does. Its not hard to see the direction of the company man. You dont need a crystal ball. All you need is some common sense and make an educated guess.

 

I'm only going to focus on this, because it shows that you don't read before you argue.

 

You didn't bother to respond to the fact that 2.0 was free. Or that we don't know everything coming in 2.1 (so, really, saying it's only bringing content that you must pay for is complete BS on your part). And 1.7 brought us a new WZ. AND we got an event. Both completely free.

 

WoW's barbershop is a joke. If you want REAL changes to your character -- pony up RL$. Actual re-customization costs real money. As do race changes.

 

So, common sense? You're making an "educated" guess based off of untruths and two small points. Cathar not being free and RotHC being an expac instead of a patch. We still don't know if Cathar will be an "item" that you can sell on the GTN. We don't know which customization options will have credit equivalents. We DO know, however, that CE vendor and Security Key vendor will be getting unique armor dyes, as will the CM -- but I believe all of the CM ones will be RE-able and craftable.

 

You've pointed out two things, in over a year of a game, that *could* point towards something. At the moment, you're reading too much into this. Slippery slope fallacy. Look it up.

[Dokar]

I did not say happy, i said indifferent. Loss of 900 grand in value of a house you will never sell is totally meaningless. That's my entire point. If you do not understand that, then it's no wonder you don't understand my stance on SWTOR subscription value.

 

You know it does affect your ability to get other loans for things like a new car if you have a mortgage for more than the house is worth?

[Soluss]

I did not say happy, i said indifferent. Loss of 900 grand in value of a house you will never sell is totally meaningless. That's my entire point. If you do not understand that, then it's no wonder you don't understand my stance on SWTOR subscription value.

 

Its not meaningless. What about your family when you pass. They just loss the value of selling the house. Its pretty crazy to be indifferent about losing 900 grand value of your home.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Soluss

[Sharee]

If Cathar is 600 CC I would have thought it would of made more sense to make it 500CC so subscribers can then unlock the species with their next instalment of free CC from being a subscriber. By putting it to 600 they either have to wait another month or buy another 100 coins and I think this has been done delibratly to sell more coins and from a subscribers point of view makes them look greedy

 

Just a side note: You get 100 free coins per month from having a security key attached to your account. So a sub with sec key gets 600/mnth.

[danielearley]

What you fail to see is that they are making moves that people are unpleased with. You may not be but other people are. Now you are arguing against what they are unhappy with because you are ok with it. When you are not ok with something you will voice your opinion and be on the other side of the fence. Dont be a hypocrit.

 

They are showing a precendence though. Pre F2P cathar and the expansion were meant as a non paid update. Since F2P they had a short time event. HK51 and a new Op. They said we would get free content updates every 6-8 weeks. Makeb hit the area of the 6-8 weeks.... we paid for that. The next update people will have to pay and continuously pay to utilize. So there is 12-16 weeks of updates that cost extra money in a row. There is your precedence. On top of that... the majority of the updates have mostly dealt with the cartel market. They had problems adding gear and mounts and other vanity stuff to the game before the market hit. Afterwords they are able to do so weekly to monthly. Odd how that works. They also almost charged for HK-51. If not for the "whining" on the forums they would have.

 

Firstly your entire post is based on speculation, this hasn't happened yet!

If I get an update like Makeb every 12-16 weeks, frankly I won't mind paying £5. (I think this is unlikely, if they charge for an expansion that doesn't live up to Makeb, most people won't buy the next)

Sadly I've never saw any reference to paying for HK-51, maybe you could supply a link to Bioware saying this? Or was it speculation at the time!

[Soluss]

Firstly your entire post is based on speculation, this hasn't happened yet!

If I get an update like Makeb every 12-16 weeks, frankly I won't mind paying £5. (I think this is unlikely, if they charge for an expansion that doesn't live up to Makeb, most people won't buy the next)

Sadly I've never saw any reference to paying for HK-51, maybe you could supply a link to Bioware saying this? Or was it speculation at the time!

 

It wasnt speculation on HK51. Im not going to dig up an interview that is more then 6 months old but to paraphrase they said they were undecided if they were going to charge for it or not.

 

You wont get an update like Makeb every 12-16 weeks. Im not even sure why you said that. I was talking about 12-16 weeks of not having any free content updates.

[Sharee]

Its not meaningless. What about your family when you pass. They just loss the value of selling the house. Its pretty crazy to be indifferent about losing 900 grand value of your home.

 

The point of my example is that the house will never be sold. Thus it's market value is irrelevant, to you, your family, or anyone else. As long as the house is not a part of the market it's market value is an empty number that has absolutely no effect on anything but it's 'value' in your head.

[Kilora]

As I said, you dont know the value of a dollar. Your opinion is fine. I just dont share it. What you got for 15 bucks back then is what people get for free now, about 80% of it anyways. When things become free they are no longer worth money. You are essentially paying for unlimited access to warzones/flashpoints and operations. That value is 10 bucks. 5 bucks goes towards your "free cartel coins". Its fine if you think its worth it. It actually is worth it. Im arguing that the coins are not free because they are not.

 

If you dont care that you lost 900 grand in value of your house you are crazy. I dont think anyone would be happy about that. I dont care how much of a ToR supporter you are. On top of that, it does effect you. It effects you a great deal but thats off topic.

 

Really? So -- when a musician puts out a CD for $20 -- that isn't worth $20 by your logic. Because I can obtain it for free through extra-legal means. Or, by paying for Spotify or watching the music on youtube videos legally.

 

Or, when an artist puts out a "Pay what you want" CD, allowing you to pay for free, it is worth $0, right?

 

 

No. Valuing something at a different price that its *actual* value doesn't mean you don't know the value of a dollar. Maybe I view it like this:

 

Amanda Palmer came out with a new album. I got it for free -- because I wanted to support a local artist that I enjoy, and I donated $10 to her kickstarter. Did I donate that $10 to purchase the CD? No.

 

The CD was an added bonus.

[MajikMyst]

This thread is still going?? Why??

 

For pete sakes.. The Cathar species is not content.. It is vanity stuff.. To unlock the other species either cost a ton of credits or a ton of time to level a character to 50..

 

I just don't see what the issue is??

 

600cc?? Use your monthly grant.. No big deal.. You all sound like the world is coming to an end..

[Kilora]

It wasnt speculation on HK51. Im not going to dig up an interview that is more then 6 months old but to paraphrase they said they were undecided if they were going to charge for it or not.

 

You wont get an update like Makeb every 12-16 weeks. Im not even sure why you said that. I was talking about 12-16 weeks of not having any free content updates.

 

Except, we haven't had a single Content update that wasn't free. Maybe you could include RotHC -- but 2.0 dropped at the same time, which was free.

 

1.7 included a WZ, and we got an event.

 

2.1 hasn't dropped yet -- we have NO idea what will be included. We don't even have all of the information that was given to fan sites yet!

 

And, really? Forgive me if I don't take your word on the HK statement. Either find a real source, or stop using it as a reason -- because from my standpoint, you're making it up.

[danielearley]

If Cathar is 600 CC I would have thought it would of made more sense to make it 500CC so subscribers can then unlock the species with their next instalment of free CC from being a subscriber. By putting it to 600 they either have to wait another month or buy another 100 coins and I think this has been done delibratly to sell more coins and from a subscribers point of view makes them look greedy

 

I've not seen this anywhere, where is this information coming from? I have been unable to find any details from Bioware with regards to the cost. I have only seen this on Fan Sites.