Subscription: Advertisement vs Truth

[noobzor]

I believe the issue that you wanted to have addressed is that currently it states "Full access to all character creation choices." As of this moment this terminology is still correct as subscribers do have full access to those choices. We will be updating that page (along with any others that make similar references) once Game Update 2.1 goes live.

 

-eric

 

That completely misses the point, though. Though the original wording did not specifically state as much, the implication was that subscribers would not only have access to all current character creation choices, but to all future character creation choices as well. When you advertise a statement like that, the consumer naturally assumes that it is true now and will continue to be true for the lifetime of the product.

 

Changing the advertised benefits of being a subscriber means that now when we look at the list of subscriber benefits, we have to add "...until we decide to change it" to the end of every advertised benefit. That does not instill confidence in the product or the company providing it.

 

Is it legal? Yes, I believe it is. Is it ethical? That is a matter of no small debate. Does it inspire loyalty in your paying subscribers? No, absolutely not.

[Syas]

That completely misses the point, though. Though the original wording did not specifically state as much, the implication was that subscribers would not only have access to all current character creation choices, but to all future character creation choices as well. When you advertise a statement like that, the consumer naturally assumes that it is true now and will continue to be true for the lifetime of the product.

 

Changing the advertised benefits of being a subscriber means that now when we look at the list of subscriber benefits, we have to add "...until we decide to change it" to the end of every advertised benefit. That does not instill confidence in the product or the company providing it.

 

Is it legal? Yes, I believe it is. Is it ethical? That is a matter of no small debate. Does it inspire loyalty in your paying subscribers? No, absolutely not.

 

I am inclined to agree with this. While I am on the side of the fence where I don't believe Bioware has lied (they haven't), nor did I infer that the subscriber bonuses would never change, adding a new race so soon after Free to Play and not giving it to Subscribers as a freebie (for some classes just like every other race now) seems like a poor business decision.

[SithVeritas]

I am inclined to agree with this. While I am on the side of the fence where I don't believe Bioware has lied (they haven't), nor did I infer that the subscriber bonuses would never change, adding a new race so soon after Free to Play and not giving it to Subscribers as a freebie (for some classes just like every other race now) seems like a poor business decision.

 

They haven't lied, yet, that's why I've been here for the last few days, to keep it that way. If 2.1 goes live the way it is, they will have lied.

 

All I'm trying to say is what noobzor just said, English not being my first language and frustrating exchanges of words with other posters may have affected my wording.

Edited April 30, 2013 by SithVeritas

[MisterMuse]

Dude.. You have failed to show that there is even an issue.. There is no arrogance in my post.. Only undeniable facts.. You simply can't refute any of it with facts of your own and your post above shows that..

 

There is nothing to talk about here and that isn't opinion.. I mean seriously.. When your false advertisement claim fell on it's face and made you look somewhat foolish.. You went for the slippery slope approach and compared the Cathar Species to an Op or a flashpoint.. Which again made you look somewhat foolish.. First there is a huge difference between a species, which is just a vanity item, and an op or flashpoint, which is actual content.. They have nothing to do with each other and to claim your are fearful of something that hasn't happened, hasn't been announced will happen, and most likely will never happen, is somewhat foolish..

 

Despite it being brought up by many others and myself.. The simple fact that each faction in the game has never had full access to all the species is just plain ignored.. We have always had to unlock certain species to play on the other faction.. It just begs to wonder, why would a new race just be unlocked to both factions?? What is wrong with the existing idea of unlocking additional species.. You have simply yet to even address that fact..

 

So?? What exactly is your opinion and what facts do you base it on?? Because from what I have seem, you have been wrong since your very first post.. I do find it sad that Bioware has made the choice to change the wording on their website.. As if the obvious was just to hard to understand..

 

As I laid out in my post above.. This issue wasn't created by Bioware.. There is your truth and the truth backed by facts and logic..

 

The fact that you don't even know my opinion is rather saddening considering what we've been talking about here. But let me explain it one last time.

 

The difference between you and me is that you place nill value on a new Specie for the game, for you its incomparable to actual content within the game. I myself so think that the line between "fluff" and content is rather thin.

 

According to your facts there is no danger to the game as a whole, which you base on your previous opinion and that is understandable.

 

But your truth doesn't hold any value to those who does think that there is a value to new Species, ergo Species=Content, or at least semi-content. Your truth and logic is purely subjective and rely on ideas which you arrogantly demand that people need to agree with.

 

Face it, there are people out there who valued the fact that as subscribers we got more Species that those who are not and these people don't agree with your assessment that Species isn't content. My slipping slope argument is perfectly valid in the case of my opinion on the value of the Cathar.

 

Your arguments are logical based on the premises which you provide for sure but many other argue from different premises, myself included.

 

Even Bioware agrees with the fact that at the moment they are promising all races for subscribers but that they have the right to change that at any time, which they do. But the problem presented by myself is that such a mentality is frightening as the value of our subs are simply what Bioware/EA feel they can get away with, the argument doesn't hit home with you because of your opinion on the value of Species selection.

 

I presented all this to you tenth of pages ago and left saying that your perfectly inclined to the opinion that you have yet your constant unwillingness to accept opinions is starting to look rather petty. Claiming that others lack logic and that you hold some truth which others simply need to accept is the utter arrogance.

 

I haven't failed to show an issue, just one that you can relate to.

Edited April 30, 2013 by MisterMuse

[Kilora]

In a interview with Dulfy they have stated that yes, it is going to be slider based, but it's going to charge CC per slider, regardless of sub status.

 

Cathar are 600 CC for everyone, it isn't available to pick and level up to 50 to unlock for all classes, no way to unlock it in legacy like HK-51, no discount, nothing. I don't mind this as much as the customization thing though.

 

I'm aware. You should probably reread my post. . . .

 

We DON'T know if there will be tradeable unlocks for any of this stuff. Since there isn't any precedent as far as customizations go, it is up in the air.

 

There IS, however, precedence for them to make Cathar available as an item -- much like the other species unlocks -- that can be traded and sold. And -- Cathar will be an account wide unlock, so there is no reason for a legacy unlock.

[Syas]

They haven't lied, yet, that's why I've been here for the last few days, to keep it that way. If 2.1 goes live the way it is, they will have lied

There was no statement that all future character customization options were free from subscribers. I agree, however, that it is natural to infer from that statement that subscribers should have free access to all future customizations as well.

 

That said, Bioware never explicitly promised that, so long as that web page changes on or before 2.1 release, they are not lying. Doesn't mean it is right and happy and shiny, but we should be careful that we do not make false allegations as it lowers the validity of any conversation that can be had regarding the issue.

[SithVeritas]

I'm aware... ... an account wide unlock, so there is no reason for a legacy unlock.

 

Except that a legacy unlock only requires a sub, maybe some credits and actually playing the game, not having to wait for someone else to buy a QOL feature so you can buy it from them in credits like any other F2P who just decided to give this game a try.

 

I believe it's the reason people sub to begin with.

Edited April 30, 2013 by SithVeritas

[SithVeritas]

There was no statement that all future character customization options were free from subscribers. I agree, however, that it is natural to infer from that statement that subscribers should have free access to all future customizations as well.

 

That said, Bioware never explicitly promised that, so long as that web page changes on or before 2.1 release, they are not lying. Doesn't mean it is right and happy and shiny, but we should be careful that we do not make false allegations as it lowers the validity of any conversation that can be had regarding the issue.

 

Until today I was under the impression I could take anything BioWare said at face value, and that the only reason they didn't deliver was because of what happened in the past when players started leaving.

 

I didn't realize I was dealing with the kind of company that needs to explicitly promise something before I can go with it, that's definitely not what I expected from them, if I knew I wouldn't have subbed to begin with, and I certainly won't be renewing.

 

I'll wait and see what they end up doing with 2.1.

[Kilora]

Except that a legacy unlock only requires a sub, maybe some credits and actually playing the game.

 

Once again, are you even reading my posts?

 

I pointed out that, while you may have to use CC to buy this from the CM -- it will most likely be PHYSICAL ITEM that you can trade -- like every other species unlock.

 

Go to the GTN. People still sell species unlock authorizations. No reason to think Cathar won't be the same.

 

Once you unlock Cathar (either by purchasing it in CC, or assumingly with credits from the GTN) it is unlocked on the entire account. Meaning -- it would be redundant to have a legacy unlock for it as well. (Yes, they could make the legacy unlock be CC only). Not once did I mention it would be a legacy unlock. Nor did I hint to it. Nor did I say ANYTHING about it. WHY you felt the need to twist my statements so you could argue with them, I have no idea.

 

Sorry, your edit isn't included in the quote. But give me a break! A new species is NOT QUALITY OF LIFE. It's freaking customization fluff!

[Sprgmr]

I still don't get why so many of you feel personally insulted by this. I know know my next 600 is going to Cathar unlock to show support. I don't know if I'm actually going to play one.

 

AS I see it, Cathar are a bonus race. Subscribers get all he standard races free, and then have to use their free Cartel Coins to unlock an ADDITIONAL BONUS race. It's really that simple.

 

Or maybe I just don't feel the same sense of entitlement that others do.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Sprgmr

[SithVeritas]

Once again, are you even reading my posts?

 

Stopped reading there.

I don't have to take your ****.

Ignored.

 

I still don't get why so many of you feel personally insulted by this. I know know my next 600 is going to Cathar unlock to show support. I don't know if I'm actually going to play one .

 

I've been showing my support since launch with my subscription, and by pre-ordering the expansion.

I'm slowly running out of hard-earned support to give when the value of subscription has only gone down since.

Edited April 30, 2013 by SithVeritas

[Andryah]

Once again, are you even reading my posts?

 

I pointed out that, while you may have to use CC to buy this from the CM -- it will most likely be PHYSICAL ITEM that you can trade -- like every other species unlock.

 

Go to the GTN. People still sell species unlock authorizations. No reason to think Cathar won't be the same.

 

So far, Bioware has taken very much a free market approach to CCM content. Meaning that they have allowed it to be resold or traded to other players. So yeah, it would not surprise me at all to see this is true for the 2.1 CCM items as well.

 

Which means: players will be able to buy it with in game credits and not spend coins. Someone else, who wants to (regardless of reasons or motives) will buy and list on the GTN. Given how popular it is.. it will get listed... just like character slot unlocks and many other popular extensions to content that subs desire.

 

In fact, I find it funny that people never complained about purchasing character unlocks via CCM but they complain about anything cosmetic that they feel somehow personally entitled to. Personally, I purchased all of my character unlocks from other players on the GTN... and it was good for me and good for the person that listed it. Win/win IMO.

 

Some MMOs take the approach of binding shop content to the players to force everyone to use the shop. Bioware has not done that.. and in essence is giving wide freedom of choice to players here.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Andryah

[Syas]

Until today I was under the impression I could take anything BioWare said at face value, and that the only reason they didn't deliver was because of what happened in the past when players started leaving.

 

I didn't realize I was dealing with the kind of company that needs to explicitly promise something before I can go with it, that's definitely not what I expected from them, if I knew I wouldn't have subbed to begin with, and I certainly won't be renewing.

 

I'll wait and see what they end up doing with 2.1.

 

Here is the issue though, you aren't taking it at face value. Face value is that as of this moment, Subscribers have access to all Character Creation options. Nothing more. By inferring a statement about the future from that, you are now taking things past "face value".

 

I am not saying you are wrong for inferring something from that statement, I did the same thing. I am still hoping we will see Cathar free for Subscribers, but if we don't, we haven't been lied to.

[Kilora]

So far, Bioware has taken very much a free market approach to CCM content. Meaning that they have allowed it to be resold or traded to other players. So yeah, it would not surprise me at all to see this is true for the 2.1 CCM items as well.

 

Which means: players will be able to buy it with in game credits and not spend coins. Someone else, who wants to (regardless of reasons or motives) will buy and list on the GTN. Given how popular it is.. it will get listed... just like character slot unlocks and many other popular expansions to content that subs desire.

 

In fact, I find it funny that people never complained about purchasing character unlocks via CCM but they complain about anything cosmetic that they feel somehow personally entitled to. Personally, I purchased all of my character unlocks from other players on the GTN... and it was good for me and good for the person that listed it. Win/win IMO.

 

See? This is exactly what I was getting at! Seems the other poster just wanted to start an argument. All of his responses to me have made almost no sense, as he's arguing things I didn't even discuss. . . How do you get stupid people to realize they're arguing with the wrong person?!

 

It'll be interesting to see how they do it with other customizations -- but I plan on waiting out the rush of cathar listings, and purchasing the unlock off of the GTN once the prices stabilize. I don't know that I'll ever make a Cathar -- but, why not buy it with in-game credits and give myself the option?

 

I *wish* I had purchased all of the unlocks off of the GTN. I blew away a lot of my stipend for the unlocks, because I didn't want to waste the credits -- and never thought to check the GTN for cheaper prices. >.< Stupid me -- at least I know to do it in the future.

[MajikMyst]

The fact that you don't even know my opinion is rather saddening considering what we've been talking about here. But let me explain it one last time.

 

The difference between you and me is that you place nill value on a new Specie for the game, for you its incomparable to actual content within the game. I myself so think that the line between "fluff" and content is rather thin.

 

According to your facts there is no danger to the game as a whole, which you base on your previous opinion and that is understandable.

 

But your truth doesn't hold any value to those who does think that there is a value to new Species, ergo Species=Content, or at least semi-content. Your truth and logic is purely subjective and rely on ideas which you arrogantly demand that people need to agree with.

 

Face it, there are people out there who valued the fact that as subscribers we got more Species that those who are not and these people don't agree with your assessment that Species isn't content. My slipping slope argument is perfectly valid in the case of my opinion on the value of the Cathar.

 

Your arguments are logical based on the premises which you provide for sure but many other argue from different premises, myself included.

 

Even Bioware agrees with the fact that at the moment they are promising all races for subscribers but that they have the right to change that at any time, which they do. But the problem presented by myself is that such a mentality is frightening as the value of our subs are simply what Bioware/EA feel they can get away with, the argument doesn't hit home with you because of your opinion on the value of Species selection.

 

I presented all this to you tenth of pages ago and left saying that your perfectly inclined to the opinion that you have yet your constant unwillingness to accept opinions is starting to look rather petty. Claiming that others lack logic and that you hold some truth which others simply need to accept is the utter arrogance.

 

I haven't failed to show an issue, just one that you can relate to.

 

Wow.. Still no facts or anything.. Just ranting about whether or not anyone or myself values the Cathar..

 

Come on man.. Seriously.. Is that the best you got??

 

We are getting the Cathar 100% free with our monthly grant of complementary coins.. How does that not comply with anything that Bioware has stated about a subscribers access to character creation choices?? Stick to the issue here.. This is no different than having to unlock any of the faction specific species for the opposite faction.. Did subscribers have access to all the character creation choices then?? Nothing has changed.. The Cathar being a new species to the game.. It stands to reason that both factions would have to unlock it.. The unlock is account bound and not legacy.. So it will be unlocked on all legacies on any server..

 

A new species is going in the Cartel Market for 600cc.. Big deal.. How is this a breach of anything?? Are you going to start your fear mongering about having to pay for content updates?? Or are you smart enough to know that if they did that, most if not all of their subscriptions would be lost.. Bioware knows it.. Why don't you??

Edited April 30, 2013 by MajikMyst

[MajikMyst]

That completely misses the point, though. Though the original wording did not specifically state as much, the implication was that subscribers would not only have access to all current character creation choices, but to all future character creation choices as well. When you advertise a statement like that, the consumer naturally assumes that it is true now and will continue to be true for the lifetime of the product.

 

Changing the advertised benefits of being a subscriber means that now when we look at the list of subscriber benefits, we have to add "...until we decide to change it" to the end of every advertised benefit. That does not instill confidence in the product or the company providing it.

 

Is it legal? Yes, I believe it is. Is it ethical? That is a matter of no small debate. Does it inspire loyalty in your paying subscribers? No, absolutely not.

 

It did apply to all future choices.. Until people made a stink in this thread.. Now they are going to be ultra specific since the obvious is obviously to difficult for some people..

 

I feel bad they felt the need to change the site.. That people are so nit picky and greedy.. I mean it is just to much to pay 600cc, even though every subscriber gets about that much every month for free.. So even though we have to pay 600cc.. We still have full access to all character creation choices.. For Free..

 

Now it is just going to be spelled out a little differently.. In an effort to curtail any future misunderstanding about the obvious and the incredibly simple..

 

No.. This was not specifically directed at you so please don't read it as such.. Thanks..

[Andryah]

How is this a breach of anything??

 

Though in fairness... and to go off topic for a moment... all signs indicate that some are having a breach IN their pants over this.

 

On a more serious note though. This is just this weeks complaint_de_jour. It will pass.

 

Next comes /ranting when the content goes live and people's personal expectations on specific content is not met precisely as they personally desire. The content being released is going to be low hanging fruit for complaining and gnashing of teeth simply because it's new cosmetic content and people seem to take the minutiae of cosmetics as seriously as the minutiae of mechanics inside an Op. And, interestingly enough.. that too shall pass... like it always does.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Andryah

[MajikMyst]

Though in fairness... and to go off topic for a moment... all signs indicate that some are having a breach IN their pants over this.

 

Oh thank you!!! That gave me a good laugh!! I needed that!!!

Edited April 30, 2013 by MajikMyst

[MajikMyst]

I am still hoping we will see Cathar free for Subscribers, but if we don't, we haven't been lied to.

 

We will see it free to subscribers as long as you count the free complementary coins we get as free.. That seems to be the big issue.. Using free coins to buy something somehow makes that something not free.. That is why subscriber get those coins.. Is for times like this.. So we have the means to get something without incurring an additional cost.. Real cost not game cost.. F2P people will have to purchase those coins.. We will not..

 

Some here don't consider those coins as being free as we have to pay for our subscriptions to get them.. Free with stipulations or conditions is a common business practice.. Us paying a subscription doesn't make those coins any less free.. I am sure you know this though..

Edited April 30, 2013 by MajikMyst

[MajikMyst]

Except that a legacy unlock only requires a sub, maybe some credits and actually playing the game, not having to wait for someone else to buy a QOL feature so you can buy it from them in credits like any other F2P who just decided to give this game a try.

 

I believe it's the reason people sub to begin with.

 

I am not sure what your point is here..

 

A legacy unlock only works for characters on a single server..

 

An account unlock works for all characters on all servers and all legacies..

 

So it being an account unlock makes legacy a moot issue..

[Sprgmr]

HOW ABOUT THIS:

 

Don't give me my next month's stipend of 600CC, just unlock Cathar for me. Would everyone be up in arms if there was an option like that? I don't use my Cartel coins for anything useful anyway, I just buy the latest pack and always get bad luck. It's a fun little game.

[Andryah]

HOW ABOUT THIS:

 

Don't give me my next month's stipend of 600CC, just unlock Cathar for me. Would everyone be up in arms if there was an option like that? I don't use my Cartel coins for anything useful anyway, I just buy the latest pack and always get bad luck. It's a fun little game.

 

You do know there are people that could care less about Cathar and will want their monthly coin reward to use for other things, right?

 

TL;DR BAD IDEA

[Sprgmr]

That's why I said an option. Read it all before going at me.

 

You do know there are people that could care less about Cathar and will want their monthly coin reward to use for other things, right?

 

TL;DR BAD IDEA

Edited April 30, 2013 by Sprgmr

[Kilora]

HOW ABOUT THIS:

 

Don't give me my next month's stipend of 600CC, just unlock Cathar for me. Would everyone be up in arms if there was an option like that? I don't use my Cartel coins for anything useful anyway, I just buy the latest pack and always get bad luck. It's a fun little game.

 

How is that really any different than using the stipend to unlock Cathar. . . ?

 

If people need something like that because they can't control themselves and save the 600cc to unlock cathar. . .

 

 

I guess I just don't understand. Why is that situation different than just using the 600cc to unlock Cathar anyway?

[SithVeritas]

I am not sure what your point is here..

 

A legacy unlock only works for characters on a single server..

 

An account unlock works for all characters on all servers and all legacies..

 

So it being an account unlock makes legacy a moot issue..

 

A legacy unlock is available when you sub, and you can unlock it by either subbing or buying the purple Cartel unlock.

Much like HK-51.

 

Account unlock = real money.

 

Your response: ''But you get cartel coins when you sub so it's free.''

My response: ''It isn't free.''

rinse&repeat.

 

Not doing this. Good convo.