PVE Pyro Problem? What Problem?

[Chickensevil]

So in my very limited view of the game I am just not seeing the issues with "major dps loss" that people are complaining about. PVP, I am won over, no arguments there... I was complaining ALL DAY about a week ago, while running WZs because of the issues and me getting my butt handed to me. Anyway, back to the post...

 

Currently this is the Spec I am running: 8/7/31

 

I pretty much do the standard pyro rotation, for those who dont know:

opening: IM - Rail - RP (PPA Proc) - Rail (of course you FB if you didn't get the proc pretty much until you do get it)

Then it goes in cycles:

If under 15 heat two FB - RP/FB (PPA Proc) - Rail

If over 15 heat FB - Rapid Shots - RP/FB (PPA Proc) - Rail

if IM needs refreshed - IM - Rapid Shots - RP/FB (PPA Proc) - Rail

If DFA is off CD - DFA - RP/FB (PPA Proc) - Rail

 

I generally pop CDs just before hitting DFA the first time, and then every time off CD, and shoulder cannon gets thrown in there as well pretty much off CD.

 

OK, now that we are on the same page, I get about 2kDPS in a boss fight. I am full 69 gear (minus armorings which I am waiting for a full 4 piece to give it the swap). Its strangely consistent at 2k DPS, unless I either mess something up, die, or it is just one of THOSE fights... (like the puzzle bosses in either instance).

 

Now here is the truely puzzling thing, I am beating everyone else in most fights... And it is not a gear thing, cause the people I expect to be doing better than me are just not. Every once in a while, either because I have a poor fight, or whatever, I will get outdone by our Jugg dps or our Sniper... but usually I am 100 dps over the next guy.

 

Now, if I were to actually optimize my gear back out (getting rid of all this crit and alacrity) I am scared to think of how my numbers will actually IMPROVE. But in an actual fight, where do you stand on numbers? Please link logs or something so I know you aren't just making wild claims please.

 

Bottom line - do I feel like I am doing less damage? yeah, I do... but so is everyone else it seems...

 

Torparse of last raid night:

http://www.torparse.com/a/195487

 

PS: Key to ability named abreviations:

IM: Incendiary Missle -- Rail: Rail Shot -- RP: Rocket Punch -- FB: Flame Burst -- DFA: Death From Above

Edited April 27, 2013 by Chickensevil
Fixed the link to the spec, cause it was wrong.

[ScytheEleven]

So in my very limited view of the game I am just not seeing the issues with "major dps loss" that people are complaining about. PVP, I am won over, no arguments there... I was complaining ALL DAY about a week ago, while running WZs because of the issues and me getting my butt handed to me. Anyway, back to the post...

 

Currently this is the Spec I am running: 8/7/31

 

I pretty much do the standard pyro rotation, for those who dont know:

opening: IM - Rail - RP (PPA Proc) - Rail (of course you FB if you didn't get the proc pretty much until you do get it)

Then it goes in cycles:

If under 15 heat two FB - RP/FB (PPA Proc) - Rail

If over 15 heat FB - Rapid Shots - RP/FB (PPA Proc) - Rail

if IM needs refreshed - IM - Rapid Shots - RP/FB (PPA Proc) - Rail

If DFA is off CD - DFA - RP/FB (PPA Proc) - Rail

 

I generally pop CDs just before hitting DFA the first time, and then every time off CD, and shoulder cannon gets thrown in there as well pretty much off CD.

 

OK, now that we are on the same page, I get about 2kDPS in a boss fight. I am full 69 gear (minus armorings which I am waiting for a full 4 piece to give it the swap). Its strangely consistent at 2k DPS, unless I either mess something up, die, or it is just one of THOSE fights... (like the puzzle bosses in either instance).

 

Now here is the truely puzzling thing, I am beating everyone else in most fights... And it is not a gear thing, cause the people I expect to be doing better than me are just not. Every once in a while, either because I have a poor fight, or whatever, I will get outdone by our Jugg dps or our Sniper... but usually I am 100 dps over the next guy.

 

Now, if I were to actually optimize my gear back out (getting rid of all this crit and alacrity) I am scared to think of how my numbers will actually IMPROVE. But in an actual fight, where do you stand on numbers? Please link logs or something so I know you aren't just making wild claims please.

 

Bottom line - do I feel like I am doing less damage? yeah, I do... but so is everyone else it seems...

 

Torparse of last raid night:

http://www.torparse.com/a/195487

 

PS: Key to ability named abreviations:

IM: Incendiary Missle -- Rail: Rail Shot -- RP: Rocket Punch -- FB: Flame Burst -- DFA: Death From Above

 

My biggest problem with Pyro PVE DPS is that TD is still bad until the last 30% of the fight. At no point do I want to see a build like yours beat out a full tree Pyro build now (not saying your tree is evil or anything, I just want our top tier talent to be great for the entire fight length). I want to see the kinetic damage raised on TD. This way burst is given back to PVP, and for PVE, a full TD will always beat out a non-TD build.

 

That being said, and please do not take this the wrong way, your rotation is a little bit off. With the nerf to CGC and the surge bonus buff to Flame Burst, you should not be using DFA on single-target fights (nor Flamethrower, but you don't use that). In the past, an argument could be made to use DFA or Flamethrower to fill in between the PPA procs...not so much anymore. I'm not telling you how to play your spec, but there is small DPS gain now from just spamming Flame Burst instead of trying to fill in DFA/Flamethrower

 

Also, the spec you are linking to is the AP/Pyro Hybrid with PT Flamethrower...not an 8/7/31 build

Edited April 27, 2013 by ScytheEleven

[Chickensevil]

Oh, really? hrmmm I will have to check that out. Thanks for the heads up! Most fights have adds in them anyway, which is when I have been using DFA anyway. But there have been others where I use it off CD, so I will switch that over and see how much improvement I gain. This was also partly why I wanted to list out what I was doing for a rotation, so if either I was doing something special then it was there, and if I could do something better, then it was there. So thank you for the critique!

 

By all means I am NOT suggesting I am the best player in the world, which is why I was posting this to begin with. If me, being a moderately ok player, am beating out the rest of my raid team on dps, either A: I am way better at this game than my fellow raid members, or B: PTs are not in as bad of a position as people keep suggesting.

 

I can sympathize with you about TD. I was excited at first when they changed it, since I was hoping it would actually be worth something now in PVE... instead it ended up being worthless for both PVE and PVP... joy of joys. I still wouldn't consider this a "hybrid" build though, since I am not going past the second tier on either of the other two trees.

 

PS: hmmm sorry, I don't know how that happened with the linking... but you knew what spec I was talking about at least

 

Edit: I have fixed the link in the original post to make it be the correct spec now

Edited April 27, 2013 by Chickensevil

[Jumpchan]

the major butthurtness comes from, alot of people doing alot of damage without any real knowledge of the class, simply put a 2 second class. now people have to contend with not blowing people apart, but basically being sage dps

great over time if nobody smashes your face in.

 

this is a very hard concept for people to grasp, everyones used to face rolling. not playing smart, for the top tier players of the class, they adapt or reroll, personally i dont even see the point of playing the class in pvp except for laughs or some utilty to fill the team, while in pve i still play it very competively matching and in some cases out doing other classes in a mostly pyro build ( i find ap so boring id rather shoot myself).

 

damage over time wise pyro is still beast just not the dragon it used to be with the nerf to the cgc, burst wise its a broken doll who lost its second leg,

Edited April 27, 2013 by Jumpchan

[Chickensevil]

Yeah, as I said, I dont really contest that pvp is hurting. I am one to stick with a class until I get so fed up with it that I leave the game... so I hope to not see this happen in this game. To give example, I played Feral Druid in Wow since BC, and nerf after nerf and sticking through it until finally the changes in Cataclysm were just too much, and I left. I am not one to reroll just so I can be happy since I love the class that I play, I put a lot of effort into trying to play it very well, and why should I dump another X number of hours into leveling a new class, and then another X number of hours trying to learn to play them well. That's atrocious and a slap in the face. I will stick with this class until the day I leave the game, it is up to BW on how long I stick it out... and keep in mind as my example of Ferals should tell you, if you know ANYTHING about that class in WoW and how they kept hitting us over and over again through two expansions, I can put up with a lot.

 

Anyway, it is comforting to know that you still feel quite competitive in PVE as Pyro, so I think it is safe to suggest that people need to get over themselves there. If you are a good player I am certain that any guild that drops you from the roster doesn't know what they are talking about (or you really do suck at playing the class). Unless someone can present clear evidence and reason why we are having an issue.

 

Sure, we can't pull 8k dps on trash, like some other classes, but who cares? Trash doesn't matter, and if they are kicking you for that then they are stupid, and if you care about being number one on trash I dare say your priorities are not straight. Let those other classes hit those numbers so they can feel good about themselves since you will still likely dominate them on the charts where it does matter.

 

What I would address is still the concern over TD for Pyro, since it really just doesn't have a purpose right now. There is NO reason for me to upset my rotation to try to squeeze it in there. Unless someone can show me otherwise, how best to put it in there, and it somehow be useful.

 

I tried out AP btw, and from what I can tell, (although I am not perfect at it) it seems like I could likely pull about the same amount of DPS on AP as I do Pyro, which is great, because it means that you can actually choose which spec you really want to play and play it. I will stick with Pryo since it seems more fun to me to play.

[ScytheEleven]

Yeah, as I said, I dont really contest that pvp is hurting. I am one to stick with a class until I get so fed up with it that I leave the game... so I hope to not see this happen in this game. To give example, I played Feral Druid in Wow since BC, and nerf after nerf and sticking through it until finally the changes in Cataclysm were just too much, and I left. I am not one to reroll just so I can be happy since I love the class that I play, I put a lot of effort into trying to play it very well, and why should I dump another X number of hours into leveling a new class, and then another X number of hours trying to learn to play them well. That's atrocious and a slap in the face. I will stick with this class until the day I leave the game, it is up to BW on how long I stick it out... and keep in mind as my example of Ferals should tell you, if you know ANYTHING about that class in WoW and how they kept hitting us over and over again through two expansions, I can put up with a lot.

 

Anyway, it is comforting to know that you still feel quite competitive in PVE as Pyro, so I think it is safe to suggest that people need to get over themselves there. If you are a good player I am certain that any guild that drops you from the roster doesn't know what they are talking about (or you really do suck at playing the class). Unless someone can present clear evidence and reason why we are having an issue.

 

Sure, we can't pull 8k dps on trash, like some other classes, but who cares? Trash doesn't matter, and if they are kicking you for that then they are stupid, and if you care about being number one on trash I dare say your priorities are not straight. Let those other classes hit those numbers so they can feel good about themselves since you will still likely dominate them on the charts where it does matter.

 

What I would address is still the concern over TD for Pyro, since it really just doesn't have a purpose right now. There is NO reason for me to upset my rotation to try to squeeze it in there. Unless someone can show me otherwise, how best to put it in there, and it somehow be useful.

 

I tried out AP btw, and from what I can tell, (although I am not perfect at it) it seems like I could likely pull about the same amount of DPS on AP as I do Pyro, which is great, because it means that you can actually choose which spec you really want to play and play it. I will stick with Pryo since it seems more fun to me to play.

 

Yeah, I won't lie, I was one of those who thought that PVE Pyro would be dead when the nerf-bat came from the PTS. It's not a killer class like it used to be, but it's still viable (I would call it a good DPS class...not great, but certainly not bad by any means). PVP however is a different story.

 

TD really shines in the burn phases where the OP Boss is below 30% health. However, for the other 70% of the fight, it sits behind a non-TD build by about 50-60 DPS. This shouldn't happen at all. TD needs it's kinetic damage buffed.

 

Sadly, due to my guild's lack of geared tanks, I've had to switch my DPS PT to a tank PT. Didn't bother me too much, since I just love Powertech in general!

Edited April 27, 2013 by ScytheEleven

[Chickensevil]

Yeah, tanking is why I originally picked this class, and then I had to switch guilds, and they didn't need a tank... so I have been dps for a number of months now.

 

See, but I am not seeing any class be majorly "OP" right now, in PVE. Which means that OK DPS is where everyone should be sitting at. You are only OP when you... well... are OP, and no class should ever be that. So I don't take major issue with anything in PVE just yet, since I can still be number one on the meters, but I definately have to work for it each and every fight, to execute my rotation perfectly the entire time, which is why I end up like 50 to 100 dps above the next guy, cause I put a lot of effort into that, I think.

 

But again, I can agree that TD should be useful to us in some form or fashion... which I think is why pyros are the most upset right now, since they just made the stupid thing worthless to everyone... I was perfectly fine not taking it for pve, since I WOULD take it for PVP, so it had use on some level... but I agree in a perfect world it should be useful to both.... I would just be happy for it to be useful period, lol.

[Ifrit]

The problem is simple. Look at the top ~50 dps for each kill boss in SnV Hardmode on TORparse. I bet you for the majority of the bosses, the top PT dps is < #35. If all classes were balanced at least one PT should be top 15 dps on each boss. PT's got nerfed too hard. Edited April 28, 2013 by Ifrit

[Chickensevil]

The problem is simple. Look at the top ~50 dps for each kill boss in SnV Hardmode on TORparse. I bet you for the majority of the bosses, the top PT dps is < #35. If all classes were balanced at least one PT should be top 15 dps on each boss. PT's got nerfed too hard.

 

That's impossible since there are only 8 classes... haha... can't be lower than 8. Yeah there are some fights were you have like 5 marauders in the top 10 but if the top for that class is above the top for a PT then it serves to reason that Everyone who plays that class should be above us... Its a flawed argument.

 

The better test is where do we fall compared to the other 8 classes. You could say take the top 10 guardian/juggs and average their results with the top 10 powertech/vanguards with the top 10 sniper/gunslingers and so on, finding out the differences between the lowest and highest and how much of a DPs difference there is between each class for a better argument toward your claim.

[Ifrit]

That's impossible since there are only 8 classes... haha... can't be lower than 8.

 

Maybe I didn't explain it well enough or maybe you aren't as familiar with the site. The site typically shows foreach boss the top 50 dps irrespective of their class. I am arguing if things are balanced there should be one of each class in the top 15 dps #'s per fight. Sure there might be some underrepresented classes. However, there are enough "good" PT's there should be ONE PT in the top 15 dps on each boss. There isn't. It's not even close. Sub 35 dps for each boss in most cases.

[Chickensevil]

Maybe I didn't explain it well enough or maybe you aren't as familiar with the site. The site typically shows foreach boss the top 50 dps irrespective of their class. I am arguing if things are balanced there should be one of each class in the top 15 dps #'s per fight. Sure there might be some underrepresented classes. However, there are enough "good" PT's there should be ONE PT in the top 15 dps on each boss. There isn't. It's not even close. Sub 35 dps for each boss in most cases.

 

Oh no, I get how it works. What you are missing is not everyone uploads to torparse. Heck I have only done it once, which was for this very thread. Could be that more people are playing the other classes, could be that people are not uploading logs, or it could be that you are somewhat correct and we are not nearly as good. But, as it stands right now, no raid content even NEEDS some of the DPS numbers I am seeing there, and some of those could have very extenuating circumstances that need to be considered, (for example on the thrasher fight was he on the boss the whole time or the adds... if adds of course DPs is gonna be complete garbage.) I say all that to suggest what I said before which was that the only way to even consider trying to fairly judge one class over another is to average multiple results together. While top 10 for each class is not best, it is better than suggesting who is the best player in the world.

 

This is why BW nor any other MMO Dev EVER balances around who is currently world number 1 and 2. Because it isn't even remotely close to an accurate representation of the class balance.

[Sardonyyx]

Yeah for hard mode S&V you need ridiculous dps. So those numbers are good. Except the powertechs. They nerfed the class too much, they did not need to. We bring nothing to a raid now, except meh dps. I'd rather take a sniper or a sorc than a pt in my raid, just because, they don't do enough damage anymore and they have Zero utility. I love the powertech, I really do, but its just a crap class ATM damage wise. Tanking still pales in comparison to sins and jugs.

 

And let's be honest, the pyro spec is 4 buttons. Not a rotation. It's RP to get RS, FB spam, and Inc Missle. And fillers. Not like a glorious rotation or anything.

[Ottoattack]

For the OP, take in consideration skill gap. Some skilled PTs can outshine less skilled dps other classes.

 

I play the same skill distribution as you do. I play also a sin and marauder dps. Annihilation marauder trumps PT, its not even close. PT will do more overall damage than a sin, but on short parses (like taking outs adds or so) sin is way better, by a margin of at least 30%.

 

I also want to note that before the expansion PTs were on par with marauders and snipers. Equally geared and skilled marauder and/or snipers, after the nerfs to PT, can out dps PT by a margin of at least 10% after the expansion due to CGC nerf. Not to mention they have better utilities as well. Regardless, PvE does not require top efficiency once you know ops/fps fights, so the output is not really a problem, it is however obvious when I run dailies among my different toons. It is even much more obvious when you PvP, once you take burst in consideration.

[Sardonyyx]

Yup. We were better than Marks snipers at burst pre 2.0. Now a Marks sniper will out dps a pyro by at least 300-400dps. Unless the pyro gets RS procs 100% of the time lol. Edited May 7, 2013 by Sardonyyx

[Chickensevil]

Yeah for hard mode S&V you need ridiculous dps. So those numbers are good. Except the powertechs. They nerfed the class too much, they did not need to. We bring nothing to a raid now, except meh dps. I'd rather take a sniper or a sorc than a pt in my raid, just because, they don't do enough damage anymore and they have Zero utility. I love the powertech, I really do, but its just a crap class ATM damage wise. Tanking still pales in comparison to sins and jugs.

 

And let's be honest, the pyro spec is 4 buttons. Not a rotation. It's RP to get RS, FB spam, and Inc Missle. And fillers. Not like a glorious rotation or anything.

 

Its a priority rotation, which can confuse some people, but yeah, it is all of 5 attacks now with DFA being taken out of the single target mix. (did some tests to confirm, dont use DFA over 2 FB). However I think what you are missing is that movement really hurts snipers and sorcs... so on fights like both of the first two bosses in SAV, with tons of movement, I just dont even think it compares. Combine that with very short add phases and I am able to steal all the damage on those things. For example when the adds spawn on Titan 6, I run up Explosive Dart, Flame sweep, DFA, and all three just hit together perfectly. By the time the 3 seconds are done with dfa the adds are pretty much dead, and I did most of the damage there. Short burst AOE like that and we are kings, long AOE... not so much. The only other ones I have seen do well on Titan has been an assassin and a jugg, the rest are meh.

 

And this is not the only fight, mind you. We have now completed HM up through the 5th boss, and in every instance myself or the other PT are either at the top, or fighting for top.

 

But I wanted to highlight, you do not need rediculous dps. I would say 1600 if you are running 16 man, and 1800 if running 8 man. That really isnt high... that is rather low... We were pulling 1600 to 1800 is poorly optimised dread guard... MAYBE when you get to the last two bosses the dps requirements will go up a bit more, but by then you should easily have enough gear to be hitting 2200 or more.

 

For the OP, take in consideration skill gap. Some skilled PTs can outshine less skilled dps other classes.

 

I play the same skill distribution as you do. I play also a sin and marauder dps. Annihilation marauder trumps PT, its not even close. PT will do more overall damage than a sin, but on short parses (like taking outs adds or so) sin is way better, by a margin of at least 30%.

 

I also want to note that before the expansion PTs were on par with marauders and snipers. Equally geared and skilled marauder and/or snipers, after the nerfs to PT, can out dps PT by a margin of at least 10% after the expansion due to CGC nerf. Not to mention they have better utilities as well. Regardless, PvE does not require top efficiency once you know ops/fps fights, so the output is not really a problem, it is however obvious when I run dailies among my different toons. It is even much more obvious when you PvP, once you take burst in consideration.

 

Yeah, I still think we suck in PVP, and hope that gets changed. As it stands though, Marauders and Snipers might be able to hit harder on a target dummy, but in a real fight, that has not been my experience. In either case, even if they are pulling 2800 dps, and I am only pulling 2200, you only NEED like 1600 to 1800... so we are still totally viable, and there is no reason to "lose" a raid spot... if so, then I would say your guild just sucks.

 

As for utility, with how we do the second boss, have a class with a taunt is very helpful (lets you keep one tank up in the stands the entire fight), having a pull is very helpful in fights with adds, specifically the 4th boss, you can yank in the back turrets to burn them down quicker. Otherwise, I cannot say, we NEED the ultility from any of the classes we are running with as far as DPS goes. We rarely pop sniper shields (unless we hit enrage timers as we are learning the fights it happens), CC is not needed at all, leaps? nope, I just dont know what utility that a DPS brings that is remotely needed to clear content, since you can form a workable strat around any dps comp (we do it every week as a guild since we have way more than 16 people in the guild).

 

Yup. We were better than Marks snipers at burst pre 2.0. Now a Marks sniper will out dps a pyro by at least 300-400dps. Unless the pyro gets RS procs 100% of the time lol.

 

A really great marks could always out DPS us, pre 2.0 I think that gap has just widened a bit. But as I said above we currently do more than enough DPS to support a raid, there isn't a need for really high dps to that extent, as proven by the top guilds downing all the content in mostly 63 gear.

[Omophorus]

What's the problem? Simple.

 

And we'll go back to the TORParse leaderboards to illustrate the point.

 

TFB 55 HM:

Writhing Horror: 7 ACs represented in the top 30, PT/VG is the outlier. Appears only 2x between #30 and #50.

Dread Guards: 7 ACs represented in the top 40. Juggy/Guardian is the outlier. PT/VG no higher than 20th, and the 7th AC to make the list.

Operator IX: 7 ACs appear in the top 50. PT/VG does not make the list at all.

Kephess the Undying: PT/VG appears 2x. The highest is at #47.

Terror:PT/VG does not make a showing in the top 30. 8th unique AC to appear on the list.

 

S&V HM:

Dash'roode: PT/VG appears only once in the top 50, at #6.

Titan 6: Several showings for PT/VG, highest at #20. 6th unique AC on the list.

Thrasher: More normal showing. Best place for PT/VG is #6, and 6 ACs represented in the top 20.

Operations Chief: PT/VG is 5th unique AC to appear, at #14. Does not make another appearance until #36.

Olok: PT/VG is 7th unique AC to appear, at #26. Does not appear again on the list.

Cartel Warlords: Decent showing for PT/VG (#5). Appears one more time at #23.

Styrak: PT/VG is 6th unique AC to appear, at #32.

 

So, in summary... PT/VG makes the top ten appearances on only 3 bosses. In one case (Op IX), it doesn't make the list at all. Sniper/Slinger is in the top ten (and almost always more than once) on every single boss. Mara/Sent makes the top ten on all but 2.

 

Even Assassin and Operative, the ultimate red-headed stepchildren of the DPS metagame before 2.0 (and neither is considered top tier even in 2.0) make more impressive appearances. Likewise with Juggy, which has always been strong but under-represented.

 

The only class that has a more pathetic showing in S&V HM is Sorc/Sage. On the flipside, it is in substantially better standing in TFB.

 

So, assuming that a fair number of people of all DPS ACs don't post their numbers, PT/VG is the most under-represented DPS AC on the leaderboards, and has the absolute fewest top-10 showings of any AC.

 

It is not fair to assume that PTs/VGs are somehow under-represented, as prior to 2.0 it was a top-performer and had many highly competitive players seeking high positions on the leaderboard.

 

I will admit that we're still fairly early in 2.0, and not everyone is geared and there are probably some strategy/tactics tweaks that will shuffle things up slightly. However, we're basically a month in now, and even the ACs that have never been in any sort of demand whatsoever for raiding are generally making PT/VG look like chumps.

[Chickensevil]

I've said before that those are not a fair judge to go against. And even if they were, you were looking at 8man HM, funny how you get a totally different picture of what class is "amazing" when you go through the other modes... if you were even trying to balance around that it would be a nightmare. I will also suggest that PTs were basically FOTM pre 2.0... the nerfs came out, everyone cried, and most people quit playing them, which is why the numbers are not in our favor here (as in our representation on these charts)

 

Second you need to look at how much DPS these people are doing. If you are hitting over 2200 dps I would bring you no matter which class you are playing... All this shows is how much one person was able to pad the meters over another, and one class vs another.

 

Ok so you look at who is on top for thrasher (since if you aren't doing adds you are basically tank and spank), and yeah, there is ONE sniper pulling over 3k on 8m HM, but again, I will say, if you can pull over 2200 dps, I dont care what class you are playing, I would take you in my raid. Clearly every class has the potential to hit at least that mark (maybe some easier than others)... But you only need most of your group pulling over 1600 dps to do 16 man, and I would say most of your group over 1800 in 8 man to down the content. This is stupid easy to get these marks...

 

So if you are getting kicked from a raid group while playing a Powertech/Vanguard. Was it because you were bad? Or because the raid leader is a moron... because it is certainly not because we cannot hit the numbers. Hitting 1600/1800 in a Pyro spec 8/7/31 can easily be done using either stock 69 gear (read: Poorly optimized high crit/alacrity) or well optimized 63 gear... because believe me, I did it... in both sets of gear. If you even begin to optimize your 69 gear your numbers will jump immensely.

[Chickensevil]

Omophorus, I do appreciate you taking what must have been considerable amount of time running through the numbers on who is where on TORParse, and I do understand where you are trying to come from with the example, I just don't think that is the best way to judge if our class actually has a problem in PVE as many have tried to claim.

 

I wanted to put my foot down on the issue, because if everyone thinks we are not capable, then regardless of truth it will effect your and my ability to get into decent groups. Saw it happen with an operative friend of mine pre-2.0. He was in full 63 gear, just helping a group out with KP HM just for kicks, and they kicked him out when they couldn't down the content because of his "low" dps... the kicker? they weren't running any kind of meter and just assumed, he was the problem. Who is this guy? The GM of Hatred (the same guild Dulfy is in). So yeah, he can pull amazing DPS... and shows that public opinion and TORParse meters dont really give full picture to the full capabilities of a class.

 

Does this mean I trust any operative to come buy wanting an invite? nope... not at all.. but I am just as judgmental against snipers too... because I know quite a few that if that was all you saw of the sniper class, you would think they were an under performing class.

[Sardonyyx]

I see that you are very persistent. IT'S NOT AS GOOD AS IT USED TO BE SO PEOPLE DON'T LIKE THEM AS MUCH ANYMORE. SNIPERS WILL KICK A PYROS *** IN BURST, TOTAL DAMAGE, AND JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE. Hop off dude, you're just putting out everyone arguments saying you don't need as much damage. You're missing the point. It's not hard to be a good pyro, like I said, simple, 4-5 buttons. So don't act like you're some awesome pt, cuz it's not hard. What we are TRYING to say, is that why play a bottom of the barrel dps when you can play something better. It really seems like you're hurting your raid group by not wanting to play another class that can do more damage. I'm sorry man, powertechs aren't as good as other classes like they used to be, it's fairly obvious that the spec isn't where it was, 50% nerf to your cylinder, nbd just 25% or your dps, that's all. So lets say it used to do about ooh 100k or so, you're losing 50k dps! How is that good? Rail shot doesn't hit as hard...trust me, I know, because I've tried it. Got mine in full Arkanian, min maxed and rail is hitting for less than it used to pre 2.0. I haven't seen a raid group kick a pt since 2.0. People don't do that, so stop saying that, cuz you said it like 3 times already. There is a problem, we got 2 very heavy nerfs, why you refuse to see that is beyond me bro.

[nadiel]

They could have at least reduced incendiary missile heat cost to 16ish so it was easier to maintain without using the default attack more than any other class to keep our resource use healthy. My commando barely has to use the default attack. The bottom line is 4 pyro PTs should be able to clear all content

[Chickensevil]

Apparently the top sniper dps is them cheating as it is, they are doing some hybrid spec with both power relics, which is letting them get the procs from healing and dps, in essence giving them 4 procs total on the power.... its no wonder they are hitting over 3k...

 

Your average sniper is not likely going to be hitting nearly that high, and it is totally skewing the numbers. Again, an issue with rating class power off of torparse.

 

I am not, nor was I suggesting that I am some amazing PT, which was the whole point. I consider myself average, yet I am keeping up with everyone else in the raid group and beating them in most cases. We are also not hitting enrage timers where it is a problem. So if, as you say, I am "holding back" my raid, then how much more so is everyone else in my group holding us back since I am at the top of the meters?

 

You can attack me personally all you want, but I have tried to present clear and counter arguments to the cases presented, and I just dont see the issue in PVE. If anything we are in the middle of the pack on DPS, which is where everyone should be.

[Sardonyyx]

It's not really an exploit if you read it. One says it doesn't work in pvp areas, the other doesn't specifically say it doesn't work in pve areas. Exploit? Nope. Cheating? Definitely not.

 

They're not middle of the pack, they're bottom of the barrel. And honestly if you're topping your raid parse, the rest of your group must suck.

 

 

I did TFB hm on mine the other day. Got almost nearly perfect rail procs. And I still was dead last in total dps. We had a Jugg, Mara, sorc and me. The sorc beat me by 300dps, while the Jugg had almost 500 on me. I've played my PT since launch, I don't suck either. Our gear was just about even, full Arkanian, few pieces of Verp, I'm not trying to attack you personally it's just that if people don't think that there's a problem, which there most definitely is, then BW won't fix it. You can't sit there and tell me that anything could warrant the 50% damage off CGC. Also, did BW mention that in the patch notes? Hell no! They snuck it in hoping we wouldn't notice. That's messed up right there. Only thing the pyro tree said was the rework to TD, nothing else. Feels like they could have mentioned that. Kind of a big deal. The rework to puncture wasn't as severe, but my rail shot is hitting for about the same as it used to, we've gained 5 levels, it should be hitting for 6k+ and most of the time im lucky to get 5600-5800. There is CLEARLY a problem.

 

I'm not saying they should make us overpowered, but they added some completely unnecessary changes to the class. I just can't get over the fact that you're not mad about a 50% nerf to something. That blows my mind. The rest of the pt community is in uproar over it and you're defending BW practically. Just...idk why.

 

 

 

Added: PTs could also use this "exploit" you mentioned, with the aoe damage healing us, at least in a raid you could. Raidwide damage is aoe damage most of the time, and its not a guaranteed proc to get the extra power, snipers ability to have health regen in cover just makes it easy. But you're also taking away talent points to spec into that, points that could be more useful in other places.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Sardonyyx

[Omophorus]

Omophorus, I do appreciate you taking what must have been considerable amount of time running through the numbers on who is where on TORParse, and I do understand where you are trying to come from with the example, I just don't think that is the best way to judge if our class actually has a problem in PVE as many have tried to claim.

 

I wanted to put my foot down on the issue, because if everyone thinks we are not capable, then regardless of truth it will effect your and my ability to get into decent groups. Saw it happen with an operative friend of mine pre-2.0. He was in full 63 gear, just helping a group out with KP HM just for kicks, and they kicked him out when they couldn't down the content because of his "low" dps... the kicker? they weren't running any kind of meter and just assumed, he was the problem. Who is this guy? The GM of Hatred (the same guild Dulfy is in). So yeah, he can pull amazing DPS... and shows that public opinion and TORParse meters dont really give full picture to the full capabilities of a class.

 

Does this mean I trust any operative to come buy wanting an invite? nope... not at all.. but I am just as judgmental against snipers too... because I know quite a few that if that was all you saw of the sniper class, you would think they were an under performing class.

 

I figured that would be a slightly more logical argument than the other, more anecdotal, one I'd considered:

 

The 4 core members of El Kamino (we raid with non-guildies) all have a minimum of 4 level 50 characters. All 4 of us had geared 50 PTs before 2.0 hit.

 

Two of the 4 immediately leveled PT to 55 upon the release of 2.0, tried every potentially viable spec (full tree Pyro, full tree AP, mild Pyro hybrid up to Burnout, PPA/PFT hybrid), leveled other classes to 55, and both immediately concluded that PT wasn't in a *terrible* place, but was incredibly limp-wristed compared to every other DPS spec they tried (including perennial lame ducks like Operative's Lethality spec).

 

Note... both of the aforementioned PTs made multiple appearances in the pre-2.0 TORParse top 50, for both 8 man Op HM/NiM Ops content and HM FP content, so neither's exactly a Scrubzilla.

 

All that said, the anecdotal "two of the better PTs playing the game both leveled and geared the class after 2.0 and both bemoan how lackluster it is" is a less sound argument than "look at how badly underrepresented Powertech is on the leaderboards for actual content".

 

There will be outstanding individuals on every class who are worthy of raid spots no matter what. Sweeping underperforming classes/specs under the rug will not help get the issue resolved. The more noise that is made about laggards, and the sooner people speak up, the sooner BioWare will look into the issue.

 

The more rational, numbers-backed arguments the community can make to Austin Peckenpaugh to justify why there are issues with the current state of class balance, the more likely they are to be resolved in a timely fashion.

 

For a perfect example of the above statement... consider Assassin tanks on PTS. In initial builds they were unbearably squishy on trash packs and stuck with crippling resource starvation almost constantly, leading to inability to make any meaningful use of 2 core tanking talents (one old, one new for 2.0). Numerous people, most notably KeyboardNinja, posted the math & combat logs to back up their opinions, and kept banging the drum about shortcomings with the class. Those issues were all resolved before 2.0 hit live.

 

Conversely, people were whining about the PPA+auto-crit RS hybrid outperforming all other specs by over 10% with the logs to back it up, and PT was nerfed into the ground. People complained, of course, and a few logs showing how low the DPS had dropped cropped up, but no community effort or organized, data-backed campaign really crept up in time to make the designers re-evaluate their changes.

 

The only opportunity to repair the damage done to PT is to make as much noise about the situation as possible, and back up that noise with good data.

 

PT Pyro *has* a problem, and wishing it away won't fix it. The fact that the highest-performing PVE build has more points invested into AP than it does Pyro indicates that quite clearly, but the clunky, un-fun nature of that spec seriously dissuades many people from touching it, regardless of its performance.

[Hizoka]

It's not really an exploit if you read it. One says it doesn't work in pvp areas, the other doesn't specifically say it doesn't work in pve areas. Exploit? Nope. Cheating? Definitely not.

 

you obviously have no idea what you are talking about... the PvP proc relics work everywhere and do not share a cooldown. It is a broken... not to mention that if you are so simply to think having the ability in ANY setting to proc up to 1200+ power is OK then you bring a whole new level of stupid to the table.

[nadiel]

Powertech dps is where jugg tanking was prior to 1.2, viable but has to work so much harder to hit the mediocre level. I'm curious to see if a group would struggle bring 4 pyro to a raid