I think we are at a good state of balance right now

[LeonHawkeye]

Sages and Commandos are generalist classes. As a DPS they have heals, limited cleanses, ranged, decent survivability, etc. They're jacks of all trades. They have more range than the tank DPS classes like deceptsin, madsin, pyrotech, etc and generally more survivability. They're not going to hard counter things because nothing hard counters them. That doesn't mean they are under-performing right now.

 

No, not quite. A well played Sage is extremely versatile and can be a real beast and asset to the team. A well played Commando can be average to semi-decent at best when all Cooldowns are up. Mandos are in a better state now than pre-2.0 but they're still not Ranked worthy, Electro net has too long a cooldown to be deemed ranked necessary.

[warstory]

I don't know about anyone else but if I hear that tracer missile sound I am finding that guy and going to try and take him out of the fight if you let a merc freecast in a wz expect to die

[dcgregorya]

My hybrid Guardian tank would dismantle either, but I am not so sure my Pure DPS Sage could even touch my Guardian (and my Guardian is not even full DPS). I get just as much CC, WAY better DFCD, 2 leaps to eliminate any range advantage, and 3 attacks rated over 5K+. Can my DPS Sage match that? No. Given the same skill/knowledge level, my guardian will pimp-slap my Sage.

 

Which 3 attacks? I have a hard time believe you have 3 attacks as a guardian hybrid that hit for 5k+. Which spec?

Edited April 25, 2013 by dcgregorya

[dcgregorya]

No, not quite. A well played Sage is extremely versatile and can be a real beast and asset to the team. A well played Commando can be average to semi-decent at best when all Cooldowns are up. Mandos are in a better state now than pre-2.0 but they're still not Ranked worthy, Electro net has too long a cooldown to be deemed ranked necessary.

 

I'll disagree. I own pretty hardcore on my merc as arsenal spec. It's kinda ridiculous actually. If I get the tracer off and follow through with rail/HS/unload they never survive to see the end of the unload and I can instant the tracer if my CD is up. Otherwise I can root with rocket punch then pop hydraulic overrides and get range while hitting them with double missile blasts. If they do a ranged interrupt on the tracer I'll just power shot. Eventually I'm going to land it, and then they're going to die.

Edited April 25, 2013 by dcgregorya

[Aelaias]

There are a handful of things that could use tweaks. Not nearly as many as the alarmists on these forums would say though. Most rage I've seen so far is from Pyro PTs that just can't adapt to not being the top of the food chain with 4 buttons anymore. They've all rerolled smash monkeys.

 

If anything the problem was that Pyro PT went way too long without a nerf. It was brokenly OP for like a year.

 

I adopted by making it a 2-button class. Assault/pyro is absolute trash, don't know what their motivation was in nerfing the as they were buffing other classes. Tactics is much better now but still not where the class should be. All in all there are better alternatives to vanguards in every area, both pvp and pve.

[L-RANDLE]

Completely disagree, depending on spec. Smashers are a pain in the rear, but you can deal with them provided you can keep just a couple steps ahead and time your knock-back right. They really can't catch up with you easily. Vigilance is fantastic at tearing sages apart, but balance spec tears them apart. They have no way to cleanse, and no sprint to catch you with. They have a leap and a couple of abilities to stun or incap you, but nothing compared to a sage. Balance spec is also almost all internal damage, so it ignores armor. In a fight between the two it really just comes down to how good each player is. Also arsenal dps merc is primarily dependent upon unload, railshot, and heat seekers, not tracer. Tracer is probably the most used attack, but not the most important. And for the record, they very effectively counter tanks and other more heavily armored classes. Actually, as a tank, the absolute last thing I want attacking me is an arsenal spec merc. Their full auto effectively ignores 85% of my armor; it hits crazy hard. Pyro spec hits hard because of their burns, but elemental attacks never do as much as kinetic or energy attacks in base damage, so when kinetic and energy attacks ignore armor the same as elemental, they pose a much larger threat.

 

Balance? What talents enable a Balance Sage to "tear apart" a Vig Jugg? Seriously? You think you can counter a tank effectively, even assuming they are not being healed?

 

Here, tell me how many internal attacks that a Sage has, that is actually "strong"?

 

There is only one of note and on the pecking order of high level attacks, its like 7th or 8th.

.

Ok, so they are not a counter to heavy armor.

 

So how many cc/kiting tools are there to control distance?

 

None that the base class don't provide.

 

Ok they can't stop leapers consistantly: Have no sprint immunity (so if you run, I leap you again), and no insta-mezz (unlike the base for knight/warrior class), and easily avoidable KB..

 

Yes, you have off heals, but to they replace a hard CD?

 

Nopers, you have to cast half your heals, which can all be interrupted. Can you interrupt my DFCDs? Oh and as a "tank class", I get an instant off-heal as well:D

 

 

 

All DPS Sages are/should be fodder for any other DPS specs, less mirrors, and Merc/Mando. Even if I spec full Vig I get just as many mezzs/stuns/kbs as Sages, especialy Balance ones.There is even talents to improve those!!!

 

At the end of the day, your lackluster DPS will get you killed, and if a Vig Jugg is having a problem with you they need to L2P. Any DPS knight/warrior worth their salt will tell you the same thing. They are fodder.... If you call that "balanced" then I weigh more than the planet Jupiter....

[L-RANDLE]

Which 3 attacks? I have a hard time believe you have 3 attacks as a guardian hybrid that hit for 5k+. Which spec?

 

I have Warding Call, no channel Stasis, and Zealous Leap. My Dispatch crit someone for 5.2k last night... You should be able to figure out the rest....

[Akuryu]

The entire bounty hunter/trooper class needs work. Both ACs. Every spec. They are the weakest healer, the weakest tank, and with the massive nerfs to pyro they are now a below-average DPS too. That is not to say that they can't still perform well in the right hands, but virtually anything they can do, some other class does better.

[Zunayson]

Right now in PvP there is NOTHING balanced.

 

* Much specs are broken ( far too strong / too weak )

 

* Resolve is crap

 

* Healing is extremely unbalanced ( too much )

 

* Too much CC's in the game

 

PvP is... nonsense.

 

If nothing is balanced, is it not balanced?

[BoushhDC]

Sages and Commandos are generalist classes. As a DPS they have heals, limited cleanses, ranged, decent survivability, etc. They're jacks of all trades. They have more range than the tank DPS classes like deceptsin, madsin, pyrotech, etc and generally more survivability. They're not going to hard counter things because nothing hard counters them. That doesn't mean they are under-performing right now.

 

I can't speak to sage (I play every class except sentinel and only sage on the PTS into the high 30s before it got wiped), but as far as commando goes, I can say that class has been under-performing for going on a year now. What commandos got in 2.0 were a few more abilities to enhance survivability/escapability which is exactly what the devs said they had attention on for the class, not performance/damage output and utility. Electronet? Well, after they nerfed the range of cryo-grenade by two-thirds (did commandos need yet another nerf?), it really was just a replacement. The trade-off is that, yes, it is a single-target dot and a snare (which sounds good) but it's also on a much longer CD than cryo is/was. As result, it's used more sparingly and in different situations. Did SWTOR need yet another CC? Yeah, just like w/ commando nerfs: they needed it like another hole in the head....

 

TLDR. Commandos have never come close to recovering from the nerfs they got starting almost a year ago, there is nothing they do that isn't done better by other classes -- which supports the "jack of all trades (master of none)" comment -- but doesn't get them as part of anyone's Ranked PvP "Fantasy Team" ... ever, before 2.0 or sadly since, either.

 

Although the survivability has unquestionably been somewhat improved, I can say of all my characters it is the least *fun* to play with the fewest number of abilities (any?) that will bring a smile to your face as a gamer. If anyone says anything different, I suspect either A) they've never played one to cap or B) they haven't played very many other classes for a comparison... possibly both.

Edited April 25, 2013 by BoushhDC

[gtangtan]

I agree with OP that classes are pretty balanced. Certain classes will be better in certain situations but every class now has a pretty good role within a wz. Play to your role. If you chose a rdps class, stop pretending to be a mdps class and play like a rdps. Tanks are not supposed to out-dps a dps. A clothie shouldn't be attempting to solo a stealther guarding a node. A whole bunch of baddies will never beat a coordinated grp no matter what class baddies are playing. Classes being balanced is not the same as saying every class should be equal. But every class is good at what they are supposed to do. Baddies will never see the difference and continue to whine.

[warstory]

I'll disagree. I own pretty hardcore on my merc as arsenal spec. It's kinda ridiculous actually. If I get the tracer off and follow through with rail/HS/unload they never survive to see the end of the unload and I can instant the tracer if my CD is up. Otherwise I can root with rocket punch then pop hydraulic overrides and get range while hitting them with double missile blasts. If they do a ranged interrupt on the tracer I'll just power shot. Eventually I'm going to land it, and then they're going to die.

 

^ A man who knows his class

[Monterone]

This game has never had balance. Warriors were always superior, between short spotlights other classes have had over the year and half. One constant, op thing throughout all this time though has been Rage.

 

And yes, other classes now have awesome abilities too, and finally some classes put out damage after 18 months of waiting, but just take a look at leap/charge. This ability has so many benefits and procs on it, it's the swiss army knife of the game. And the only class that can counter it is a sniper... meaning other two ranged classes have not had a place in ranked for 18 months simply due to leap/charge. And the most stubborn dev team I have ever encountered fails not only to address Smash, which has been an issue since game launched, but also to give other ranged classes a real fighting chance against melee.

 

Bottom line for me is, I don't know how long I'm gonna stick around; I love the game, I love the story -- always have... but one thing I have learned from my time here is I will never, ever again play a game that Austin Peckenpaugh is working on.

[Baedwulf]

Balance is at it's best IMO, however TTK is over the top.

 

The operative roll is the only problem I see. Give it a short CD and done.

 

Melee is in a rough spot right now but... if they brought the TTK down a notch melee would probably be in a much better place as far as survivability. I can put up insane numbers on melee but it's annoying at how many times I have to run from spawn in order to do it. (Healer pending of course.)

[BoushhDC]

... Play to your role. If you chose a rdps class, stop pretending to be a mdps class and play like a rdps. Tanks are not supposed to out-dps a dps. A clothie shouldn't be attempting to solo a stealther guarding a node. A whole bunch of baddies will never beat a coordinated grp no matter what class baddies are playing. Classes being balanced is not the same as saying every class should be equal. But every class is good at what they are supposed to do. Baddies will never see the difference and continue to whine.

 

lol.

 

Here is what being ranged dps *often* looks like:

 

http://i.imgur.com/Nh4rqY6.jpg

 

(For context, no, I wasn't there alone but the shadow I was with, combat-stealthed and ran off leaving me... well... a rdps in an involuntarily melee ranged situation. )

 

Note: this isn't PvE where an elite/boss will ignore you as long as you use your aggro dump. lol

Edited April 25, 2013 by BoushhDC

[BoushhDC]

I'll disagree. I own pretty hardcore on my merc as arsenal spec. It's kinda ridiculous actually. If I get the tracer off and follow through with rail/HS/unload they never survive to see the end of the unload and I can instant the tracer if my CD is up. Otherwise I can root with rocket punch then pop hydraulic overrides and get range while hitting them with double missile blasts. If they do a ranged interrupt on the tracer I'll just power shot. Eventually I'm going to land it, and then they're going to die.

 

Sounds good... just one question though: Is your Merc 55?

[L-RANDLE]

lol.

 

Here is what being ranged dps *often* looks like:

 

http://i.imgur.com/Nh4rqY6.jpg

 

(For context, no, I wasn't there alone but the shadow I was with, combat-stealthed and ran off leaving me... well... a rdps in an involuntarily melee ranged situation. )

 

Note: this isn't PvE where an elite/boss will ignore you as long as you use your aggro dump. lol

 

Yup. Range is an illusion in this game. Very few specs have the tools to stop the melee train..... Even TK/LT Sage/Sorc get a prompt Saber Throw if they root me..

 

In all my time playing my Guardian (8 months straight pretty much), I have only seen 1 Sorc/Sage able to give me a run for my money and I was not even BiS then.. No Doubt he was skilled, but if 1 out of the thousands I have ran up against gave me trouble, and I played the class myself to Valor 90+, then "balance my azz".

 

They counter no other class/spec, and you are only a soft counter to your mirror (DoT reduction talents).

 

 

 

And speaking of heals...

[BoushhDC]

^ A man who knows his class

 

Actually, it sounds like sub cap PvP, to me. Whole different animal thar.

[Savej]

maybe you are not

 

but i am almost half full conq.... and the difference i see between me and sage healers with full 72 gear is just lol

Also i am a gamer for the past 10 years playing MMO ... ihmo this is the second biggest fiasco i ever seen in mmo history after Funcom's age of conan Bori and bug jumping siege walls exploit.

 

People were crying for a fix in pvp there also and game director came back with a crafting expansion....

 

I wonder how many subs that game has nowadays.....

 

My statement was general. I'm sure that there are specific cases that can seem balanced between two classes in some situations (the same could be said in 1.2 & 1.7), but from what I've seen the game is less balanced than 1.7. The people that never got past recruit are happy and the game may seem more balanced to them because they aren't getting smashed by better gear as much. And the game may seem balanced to those in maxxed gear because they aren't running into fully optimized builds with the best gear arrangements much at all. It took a month or two for most sages to figure out how crazy stun bubbles were after 1.7. At release it took months for most to figure out how op anni maras were. To me it looks like scamper is silly-good, heals are too mandatory and game-changing and there are a couple other tricks that will be fleshed out here soon. And then there's the questions about which gear stats are optimal - getting full conq is probably just the beginning of optimizing gear stats (as ewh was). i won't disagree with anyone that says the game is unbalanced. But it's hard to say if its more or less balanced than 1.7 at this stage.