Watchman PVP needs some love in 2.1/2.2

[JediMasterSLC]

Grats on the 1.4 mil dmg game, what was your DPS? I'm thinking that's too much crit though.

 

I take it back, that's probably fine, assuming 3 points in insight talent.

Edited May 1, 2013 by JediMasterSLC

[Bookin-it]

I have been a watchmen since launch. At one point I was able to easily drop 1 player in a 1vs1 fight and even drop 2 players on occasion. The heal nerf was a significant hit to this tree. It in many ways cut our survivability in half. I still play watchmen well but the tree needs to be beefed up a little. 1vs1's which we are known for are not what they used to be. Snipers mow us down right away. I am trying to hold out for some kind of boost to the tree. I didn't want to switch to another tree because they are better in pvp. I think we can all agree that the trees in sentinel should be balanced and right now watchmen has come up short in damage and survivability compared to the other trees.

 

I get mowed down by snipers, but against any other class i can easily down 1 person, and most of the time kill 2. The only way i can kill snipers is if i have most of my cooldowns up and i have a medpack which i think is ridiculous. Anyway, I switched to combat the other day and I do notice overall that i am doing more damage, and burn people hella faster but watchman is still far better at staying alive imo.

[Raansu]

It's interesting to think back on the game since release when nearly every post on the sentinel forums was how the best spec was Watchman/Annihilation and the Focus and Combat were sub par. Most posts claimed this for PvP as well as PvE. Then they reduced the Watchman heals and improved ability delay on Force Sweep and suddenly everyone was Focus. Then they improved Combat and Watchman dropped off even more. I've mained a sentinel since pre release 2011 and put tons of hours in every spec. I never thought Watchman was great in PvP even before the nerfs. It was better than it is now, however.

 

I do support improving the watchman dot's somehow because I like to play it and it just isn't that great even in PUGs. It's weakness has always been it's burst damage. The high sustained damage just gives healer characters or healers on the team too much time to respond.

 

That's because at launch through 1.1.5 watchmen was the best pvp spec. TTK was balanced out very well and fights lasted long enough and the self heals were good enough to take full advantage of the tree's ramp up time. From 1.2 onwards it just got worse over time as TTK became shorter and shorter and burst became more out of control and once they nerfed the watchmens self heals, that was the end of that spec for good. No reason to play that over combat or focus anymore. And as of 2.0, the TTK is so stupidly short now that watchmen is just a joke in pvp. It's my favorite spec but I literally only play it in pve now.

[JediMasterSLC]

I get mowed down by snipers, but against any other class i can easily down 1 person, and most of the time kill 2. The only way i can kill snipers is if i have most of my cooldowns up and i have a medpack which i think is ridiculous. Anyway, I switched to combat the other day and I do notice overall that i am doing more damage, and burn people hella faster but watchman is still far better at staying alive imo.

 

Yeah, I'm actually doing pretty good with watchman now that I'm getting to about half conq half part gear, but so does pretty much every spec in the game with this gear advantage. I guess ranked is where it's deficiency is really noticeable

[Bookin-it]

Yeah, I'm actually doing pretty good with watchman now that I'm getting to about half conq half part gear, but so does pretty much every spec in the game with this gear advantage. I guess ranked is where it's deficiency is really noticeable

 

you are probably right, im not doing ranked atm so if you do end up trying it in ranked please do tell me how that goes because i am interested in how it holds up.

[JediMasterSLC]

you are probably right, im not doing ranked atm so if you do end up trying it in ranked please do tell me how that goes because i am interested in how it holds up.

 

I have tried it a little. Only time it's ok is voidstar defense.

[gtangtan]

certain trees are suited for certain situations. why do you insist on using pve oriented tree for pvp, i dunno... Watchman is high sustained single target/moderate utility, combat is high burst single target/team utility, and focus is high burst ae dmg. If you want to pvp, shouldn't you learn to play the class that's more suited rather than trying to force your pve rotation into a pvp situation?

[Raansu]

certain trees are suited for certain situations. why do you insist on using pve oriented tree for pvp, i dunno... Watchman is high sustained single target/moderate utility, combat is high burst single target/team utility, and focus is high burst ae dmg. If you want to pvp, shouldn't you learn to play the class that's more suited rather than trying to force your pve rotation into a pvp situation?

 

Because ideally all specs should be viable?

[gtangtan]

All specs are different and each is more suited for a certain situation. Part of the player's job is to learn what build is appropriate for what situation and adopt.

 

Because ideally all specs should be viable?

[JediMasterSLC]

All specs are different and each is more suited for a certain situation. Part of the player's job is to learn what build is appropriate for what situation and adopt.

 

You're missing the point. We have adapted- I haven't played watchman in a serious ranked game, except the occasional voidstar defense round, in forever, even though watchman is my favorite spec. I play all 3 specs well. The desire to be able to do well in competitive pvp playing any spec is completely legitimate, and this applies to all classes, not just sentinels. Like, give balance shadows a break please- and I've hardly even played that spec on my shadow (for good reason), a class I haven't played very much on- just proving I'm not biased. May want to un-nerftotheground dps vanguards while you're it at (and I prefer tanking on my 51 PT anyway). Oh and mando heals etc. The concept of "this is the pve tree, and this is the pvp tree" doesn't make any sense. Obviously there will be cycles where some trees are more suited for pve or pvp than the others (For instance, watchman used to be the best pvp spec- invalidating your point). They should still strive for balance between all 3 specs for both pve and pvp.

Edited May 3, 2013 by JediMasterSLC

[Kirothen]

I have two questions:

 

1) How much crit are you going for?

2) What Watchman build do you use? Do you put extra points in Focus to pick up Swift Slash or Combat to get Dual Wield Mastery? Or something else entirely? I can't decide which is better, theoretically (haven't hit 55 yet on my Watch Sent).

 

1. Crit took a huge hit when 2.0 immediately hit. I am reading on other sites and on other posts that the new soft cap for crit is around 25%. Currently with my Conqueror implants, earpiece and MH saber (with eight 28 Might augments) I am at 24.98% fully buffed. Force crit is at 29%. I feel comfortable with that crit level right now and will stack power on top of what I have.

 

2. Here is my current build: Watchman Build 2.0

My extra points are going into dual wield mastery. I dont feel like its necessary to put points into Swelling Winds because 10% increase in damage on Smash that I try to only use in group situations or if everything else is on CD is not worth the talent point. When I start getting more conqueror pieces, I may take points out of Insight and put them into Defensive Roll for the damage reduction.

[Kirothen]

Grats on the 1.4 mil dmg game, what was your DPS? I'm thinking that's too much crit though.

 

The group heals are pretty negligible against a team with decent focus-fire. Watchman has a little utility, but not like combat's. It's supposedly increased survivability isn't really noticeable in ranked except during saber ward. Combat now has a defense stacking buff talent similar to gunnery commandos (except it's defense instead of damage reduction) , and focus still has that extra 7%.

 

I actually have been taking screenshots for everyone in my matches I see with really high, record type numbers to post for them. After I did tne 1.4 mil damage game I checked my SS folder and didnt see my SS! I am using a wireless bluetooth keyboard so I think my print screen button is not always registering. So now I have been hitting it like 5 times to make sure I get the good SS's. If I had to guess, I think it may have been 1400ish DPS? I could be wrong.

[Kirothen]

Yeah it does grant both- I thought that's what it was, but then I went back to check the tooltip to make sure. I misread it and only saw the defense boost part so I edited the dmg reduction part out lol. Anyway, 6 sec interrupt is less useful now that healers rely less on casted heals.

 

Regarding the group heal, it has saved me many times 1v1 with my other defensive abilities. I posted an SS of a 166k healing game on accident and another sent on Jedi Cov posted an SS of a 240k healing game. Then last night I got a 199k healing game. Im ticking for 300-400 each second when healing the group. Thats really not that bad at all.

[Kirothen]

I get mowed down by snipers, but against any other class i can easily down 1 person, and most of the time kill 2. The only way i can kill snipers is if i have most of my cooldowns up and i have a medpack which i think is ridiculous. Anyway, I switched to combat the other day and I do notice overall that i am doing more damage, and burn people hella faster but watchman is still far better at staying alive imo.

 

Same here man. I think Watchman's 1v1 is great! User your defensive abilities properly with a good rotation and you can kill anyone. Snipers on the other hand are very hard. They have just as much utility with stealth and a knockback root. Plus they hit very hard geared fully. I find myself beating most snipers but the really good ones tear me up and there is nothing that I can do about it.

[gtangtan]

Please come back to us once you figured out that snipers can't stealth.

 

Same here man. I think Watchman's 1v1 is great! User your defensive abilities properly with a good rotation and you can kill anyone. Snipers on the other hand are very hard. They have just as much utility with stealth and a knockback root. Plus they hit very hard geared fully. I find myself beating most snipers but the really good ones tear me up and there is nothing that I can do about it.

[gtangtan]

If all spec are all viable for all situations, how would one spec more useful than other specs? In any game, you want to create specialized roles so classes can fall into certain roles within the group. You can make every single class the same and then they can all be viable and all be **** at the same time.

 

watchman was decent pre self-heal-nerf. yes we know. good job trying to make a point using outdated info from an year ago. BTW, watchman is great as a defensive build if you wanna self guard a node. But honestly, I don't see the point of all the whining when both combat and focus are amazingly viable in pvp. You can learn to use the system and win more in pvp or you can cry about your inability to learn a perfectly good build you have access to.

 

You're missing the point. We have adapted- I haven't played watchman in a serious ranked game, except the occasional voidstar defense round, in forever, even though watchman is my favorite spec. I play all 3 specs well. The desire to be able to do well in competitive pvp playing any spec is completely legitimate, and this applies to all classes, not just sentinels. Like, give balance shadows a break please- and I've hardly even played that spec on my shadow (for good reason), a class I haven't played very much on- just proving I'm not biased. May want to un-nerftotheground dps vanguards while you're it at (and I prefer tanking on my 51 PT anyway). Oh and mando heals etc. The concept of "this is the pve tree, and this is the pvp tree" doesn't make any sense. Obviously there will be cycles where some trees are more suited for pve or pvp than the others (For instance, watchman used to be the best pvp spec- invalidating your point). They should still strive for balance between all 3 specs for both pve and pvp.

Edited May 3, 2013 by gtangtan

[Kirothen]

Please come back to us once you figured out that snipers can't stealth.

 

I apologize, im confusing snipers and operatives.

[JediMasterSLC]

If all spec are all viable for all situations, how would one spec more useful than other specs? In any game, you want to create specialized roles so classes can fall into certain roles within the group. You can make every single class the same and then they can all be viable and all be **** at the same time.

 

watchman was decent pre self-heal-nerf. yes we know. good job trying to make a point using outdated info from an year ago. BTW, watchman is great as a defensive build if you wanna self guard a node. But honestly, I don't see the point of all the whining when both combat and focus are amazingly viable in pvp. You can learn to use the system and win more in pvp or you can cry about your inability to learn a perfectly good build you have access to.

 

Yeah, you really just don't get it. All specs being viable does not mean some aren't more useful than others in certain situations/maps, it just means you can play them at all in competitive pvp without gimping yourself. We still want roles to be specialized, we're not calling for generalizing specs at all, we just want all of them to have a place, and some specs in this game just don't have one. Don't dismiss someone's desire to play their favorite spec competitively as "whining". I HAVE learned to "use the system and win more", hence why I don't play watchman in ranked, and play combat and focus just as well as . Nothing to do with "inability". Find something constructive to say instead of trying to belittle people for no reason. Why on earth would you what pve and pvp skill trees to be segregated anyway.

[Anishor]

Annihilation / Watchman does have a roll, it's great for pickup PVP when your team doesn't have good or any healers. Carnage is pretty rough when the other team's DPS can focus you. The only thing it needs to be ranked viable is to ensure Deadly Saber / Overload Sabers cannot be cleansed.

[Tythonians]

Watchman really needs some love, but I don't think cleanse protection is the right answer. True be told, cleanses in SWTOR are underpowered outside of the smallest of scale PvP scenarios (i.e. 1v1 and 2v2). Multiple debuffs are thrown out far too generously, re-applied too easily, and the Ops frame UI sucks at displaying them. Cleansing promotes smart reactive play, and too often it is almost completely ignored in RWZs.

 

What I would like to see is...

 

1) Revert the healing nerfs. Self-healing was Watchman's "thing" and it was a large part of what made the spec fun. There are plenty of ways to kite and cleanse the dots. If someone wants to face-tank a Watchman Sentinel, there should be a penalty for doing so.

 

2) Make crippling throw/leg slash free. Watchman abilities are expensive, and just using the core abilities sucks up most of our focus. I know the counter-argument is it forces players to choose between damage or utility, but the usage of a global cooldown is enough in this respect. Focus spec has way more leeway in using crippling throw without becoming focus starved.

 

3) Increase the buff duration of Merciless. While I do admit that refreshing the buff gives a sense of urgency, it's far too easy for it to fall off in PvP. Doubly so when spending time doing objectives (i.e. Camo capping on Novare Coast).

Edited May 11, 2013 by Tythonians

[Andrew_Past]

1 - Zen instantly gives 4 stacks of Merciless.

 

2 - Targets under effect of your Trauma (Crippling Throw) cannot have your dots cleansed.

 

Bam, viable Watchman again.

[Ryvirath]

1 - Zen instantly gives 4 stacks of Merciless.

 

2 - Targets under effect of your Trauma (Crippling Throw) cannot have your dots cleansed.

 

Bam, viable Watchman again.

 

Add the 2% heal onto that and I can leave smash behind.

[Leafy_Bug]

1 - Zen instantly gives 4 stacks of Merciless.

 

2 - Targets under effect of your Trauma (Crippling Throw) cannot have your dots cleansed.

 

Bam, viable Watchman again.

 

 

Bam, what? Zen to give instant stacks of merciless? In what world is that more PVP viable than what zen is doing now? So you want an instant buff to white damage, aka merciless slash, which has an offhand component and will most definitely miss a lot vs the current instant zen buff that , i don't know, actually is useful for the dots you get when you run watchman? Your second point is actually a valid one as it points out that the problem with this spec is in PVP, however it will break PVP balance. Watchman is already OP one v one and if you have zen+two overload+1 cauterize+stasis any target will practically 100% die before even doing any damage to you. Making watchman viable in pvp without breaking everything is quite complicated.

 

While I agree that merciless slash takes too long to stack up to be useful, any parser will show that it is not your main source of damage.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[Andrew_Past]

Bam, what? Zen to give instant stacks of merciless? In what world is that more PVP viable than what zen is doing now? So you want an instant buff to white damage, aka merciless slash, which has an offhand component and will most definitely miss a lot vs the current instant zen buff that , i don't know, actually is useful for the dots you get when you run watchman? Your second point is actually a valid one as it points out that the problem with this spec is in PVP, however it will break PVP balance. Watchman is already OP one v one and if you have zen+two overload+1 cauterize+stasis any target will practically 100% die before even doing any damage to you. Making watchman viable in pvp without breaking everything is quite complicated.

 

While I agree that merciless slash takes too long to stack up to be useful, any parser will show that it is not your main source of damage.

I don't want to replace the current Zen, I want an instant 4 stacks of Merciless in addition to the current Zen. This change wouldn't effect PVE much, but would be a HUGE QOL buff for PVP Watchman.

 

Somewhat stronger self heals might be good too, in addition to my previous suggestions. However, that might prove to be a bit much.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Andrew_Past

[JediMasterSLC]

Your second point is actually a valid one as it points out that the problem with this spec is in PVP, however it will break PVP balance.

 

..........how exactly? As if not being able to cleanse the dots would single-handedly make the spec OP? I don't think so.

 

if you have zen+two overload+1 cauterize+stasis any target will practically 100% die before even doing any damage to you.

 

Lol