Is the Empire really driven that far back?

[Astarica]

Let's go over the planets and see how each unfolded:

 

Balmorra - neutral (Republic started the war with Balmorra and got it back)

Taris - Neither side actually cares, but Empire won here

Hoth - Empire strategic victory (the superweapon Republic found is unlikely to do anything useful because superweapons are useless in SWTOR anyway)

Voss - No effect due to Star Cabal's intervention

Corellia - Costly Republic victory (again, the Republic started the war with Corellia and barely held onto it).

Ilum - Decisive Empire victory

 

In fact, Ilum was such a decisive victory that it gave Darth Malgus enough confidence to betray the Empire. That is, we can surmise at this point Darth Malgus feels the Empire is on its way to wiping out the Republic so he can start a New Empire for himself. Darth Malgus is pragamatic and he hates the Republic. There's literally no point for him to betray the Empire if it was already going to get crushed by the Republic because then he'd just get crushed too.

 

Now of course Darth Malgus's betrayal kind of undones every progress the Empire has made to this point so overall the Empire is in very bad shape right now.

[Neriath]

The only reason the Republic is winning is because they have the Jedi Knight randomly going rambo and conquering an entire planet by himself. Yes in theory everyone does that but canonically only the Jedi Knight is repeatedly taking down a planet single handedly against all odds.

 

Thats true. Out of all the classes ive played the knight seems to get the most plot armor. Id put the sith warrior in second. Baras constantly sends him on tasks that he thinks he/she has a high chance of death, and that doesn't stop when the hand starts giving you tasks.

[Astarica]

Thats true. Out of all the classes ive played the knight seems to get the most plot armor. Id put the sith warrior in second. Baras constantly sends him on tasks that he thinks he/she has a high chance of death, and that doesn't stop when the hand starts giving you tasks.

 

I don't think there's a canonical version of how Corellia unfolded (at least based on the game) but I always envision it looks like this:

 

Jedi Consular: "I rallied up a bunch of guys to our cause!"

Smugglar: "I've been doing Smuggler things to help us!"

Trooper: "I found a bunch of soldiers who are likely to die 3 seconds later."

Jedi Knight: "Sorry guys I'm late, I just soloed 3 guys on the Dark Council. Not sure if they're anyone important. What's the plan?"

[Darth_Wicked]

Ilum - Decisive Empire victory

 

Surely you didn't play the same game I did. At most, it was a stalemate. Malgus only made a push because the Dark Council was weakened, the Emperor was missing and the Republic was still licking its wounds.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Darth_Wicked

[Allronix]

I don't think there's a canonical version of how Corellia unfolded (at least based on the game) but I always envision it looks like this:

 

Jedi Consular: "I rallied up a bunch of guys to our cause!"

Smugglar: "I've been doing Smuggler things to help us!"

Trooper: "I found a bunch of soldiers who are likely to die 3 seconds later."

Jedi Knight: "Sorry guys I'm late, I just soloed 3 guys on the Dark Council. Not sure if they're anyone important. What's the plan?"

 

The Consular and crew not only rolled into Corellia like a boss with a big fleet in tow, but turned the trap the Imperials set with the Javelin into a trap for them by blocking their communications (Thank you, Tharan and Holiday!). Then, it's not only adding a bunch of allies, but:

 

"Hey, Darth Cthulu had a Manchurian Agent network that included your partner/padawan, Knight. Wouldn't be shocked if it included your medic, too, Havoc Squad. Mischief's been managed, though. They're safe now. Hey, what do you want done with these Guardian Holds I just cleaned out?" (Consular is not Big Damn Hero. They're Big Damn Backup.)

 

Meanwhile, on the Imperial side:

 

Sith Warrior: I just killed an experienced Darth and took his place on the Dark Council!

Sith Inquisitor: I just killed ANOTHER experienced Darth and took his place on the Dark Council!

Imperial Agent: I saved the galaxy, and all I get is a lousy t-shirt (oh, and fired...and most of my colleagues are dead. Hey, Vector, any openings at your hive? Might need to lie low for the rest of my life)

Bounty Hunter: Depending on alignment, it's "I killed the Supreme Chancellor. Oh, they replaced him in two days? Do I still get paid?" or "The Republic made a counter-offer, and I'm tired of you morons anyway."

 

I explained elsewhere why the Imperials are a glass cannon. Every resource they have goes to conquest and military operatiions; full conscription, Force Users designed for combat to the exclusion of all else, all their research going into weapons and hardware. They even have Mandalore te Di'Kut signing up his people to be Sith spear-carriers for a fourth time running (you think they'd have figured out by now that this is only ends in tears, but nooooo). Add that to 300 years of perparation while Revan and Exile were glued to the idiot ball, walking into an obvious trap, and left no provisions to WARN the Republic. (Tactical mind of an age, my shebs!)

 

So, they hit. They hit very hard. They even do a lot of damage to Coruscant. But then something happens. Whether it was Revan's influence (which, it seems just as likely he was deluding himself. A war of attrition would be optimal conditions for the Emperor's omnicidal designs), or the Republic starts to rally, a cease-fire gets called. Both parties know it carries the weight and meaning of toilet paper and act accordingly. Here's where the Imperials have their disadvantages:

 

1) Human High Culture: 90% (at least) of the galaxy is of species other than Human or Sith Pureblood. A Sullistan military officer or a Twi'lek scientist? The Republic doesn't bat an eye. In the Empire, the Sullistan will be using his tactical genius to lead his fellow slaves in a revolt, and the Twi'lek will be wasting her talent as a slave or third-rate tech for a human boss that takes all the credit for her work. Given that, what faction will most of those 90% consider a better deal?

 

2) Lack of infrastructure: Just compare Coruscant to Dromund Kaas. Even though Coruscant was hit hard and has a massive crime problem, it rebuilt swiftly and the government is stable. Kaas City is only a medium-sized city by Republic standards, surrounded by jungles, and besieged by slave revolts.The road to the freaking spaceport isn't even paved! This is the capital city of the karking EMPIRE and they're hauling men and equipment up dirt roads! Top it off with a labor force of alien slaves (see #1), who are put to work not building roads, power grids, fortifications...but statues and monuments to the Darths' collective egos. The slaves do either the bare minumum, sabotage the work, or revolt, which means diverting manpower from the war effort to put down slave revolts. So much for Imperial "efficiency!"

 

3) A self-destructive culture: See above for the Imperial plotlines. Given that their capital city is a small town by Republic standards, we are probably dealing with a smaller population to begin with. OK, manditory conscription of all citizens fills the ranks in a hurry compared to the volunteer forces of the Republic. But, then we get the mentality that starts with the Emperor and seeps into even the most petty of magistrates and junior officers.The Sith murder their peers to get noticed, murder their bosses to get ahead. While they rule the Empire, they aren't trained for government. Their qualifications for office are merely being able to stab the other guy first and keep stabbing anyone else who wants the job. Worrse is when they decide to revolt and set up their own private feif, daring the Empire to take it back. And the Force-deaf officers are every bit as bad. The common solution to a problem? Throw manpower at it until destroyed. (The Republic officer usually makes a token order at best to save his men or get some confirmation they're dead so he can send it to their family. The Imperial guy rarely bothers with the notion of a rescue party...even though they have a smaller army and cannot afford the casualties!) The most accepted means to a promotion? Ruin and/or kill your boss. The Bounty Hunter's Balmorra arc is a great example - the idiot not only sets me up to kill his boss, but he has me sabotage the work of his fellow officers - thereby ruining them. (Little wonder Consular and allies were able to pull a couple threads and have it all unravel!) . All this internal betrayal and backstabbing leads to fewer experienced officers, fewer experienced Force wielders, and even fewer soldiers who have to hold greater territory with even less support!

Edited April 16, 2013 by Allronix

[ReiKai]

Well a few things. For one, the warrior doesn't join the Dark Council. SW is the Emperor's Wrath. Technically, that puts him above the Council. The Inquisitor offed Thanaton who was dragging the Sith Order down with aged philosophies and would turn away Force-Sensitive Slaves because he used to be a slave himself and hates it. This, along with the specism in the Empire, just lowers their numbers and makes them weaker.

 

Oh yeah and the Sith War offs an Imperial Moff who was suffering from dementia and was screwing up military operations everywhere. So that was a good thing. Although the Sith have a bad habit of killing their soldiers for making one mistake. Then you see what happens, you just killed an experienced leader and replaced him with a less-experienced and now fear-riddled replacement and expect better results. If they'd stop doing that, the Empire would've won the war already.

 

As for Revan not warning the Republic or Jedi. Would anyone have believed him without Evidence? He beat Malak and destroyed the Star Forge. Far as the Jedi were concerned, that WAS the threat of the Sith. And the Republic was already on near collapse from the Jedi Civil War. Warning them would've been meaningless since they didn't have the power to fight back if Vitiate had started the war three centuries in advance. Revan and Co were damn heroes for stalling Vitiate for 300yrs. Gave the Republic a fighting chance instead of letting them get steamrolled. Also note that when Revan left to fight three centuries ago, there were less than a Hundred Jedi still remaining.

 

As for the Treaty of Coruscant, Revan's influence did make Vitiate feel is was the best course at the time. Without that, the Republic may have been destroyed that day. And because of that and the Emperor's silence following that, all the Dark Council members and other Sith started slap-fighting each other in power struggles because they had nothing better to do now.

 

And btw the slave revolt was caused by Baras because he's a ***** and other Sith perpetuated it for their own ends. And btw Kas City isn't the only city on the planet, just the only one that matters. As for the Specism, Imperial Intelligence did make aliens part of their operations because of their abilities. Even if still seen as "lesser", their talents made them useful and so they treated them as assets.

 

As far as a self-destructive culture goes, the Republic is just as bad in its own way. Crime isn't just rampant on Coruscant, it's a way of life for everyone not on the very upper levels of the city-world. Coruscant looks shiny and pretty on the surface. Then go down a few hundred meters and it's nothing but rot and grime. A corrupted government. Half the senators will try and do good, and still mess with the criminal element. The other half are all greedy slobs doing whatever they can just to keep their positions.

 

It was no exaggeration when they said the Republic was bloated and rotting. Unilaterally inviting every sentient and world into the Republic may give you numbers, but makes it infinitely harder to regulate and see to every species specific needs and wants and 90% of them end up ignored, and still get hit with the human prejudice like they did on Taris three centuries ago. Republic or Empire, humans are still specist jerks.

[Darth_Wicked]

Sith Warrior: I just killed an experienced Darth and took his place on the Dark Council!

 

The Sith Warrior doesn't get to sit on the Dark Council.

[Euphrosyne]

So, lemme get this straight.

 

I've seen about a zillion of these threads in the past few months and they all more or less run along the same lines. Not going to repeat my usual massive posts about this because copypasta is boring and nobody would read it anyway.

 

The Sith Empire comes basically out of nowhere and converts a tiny resource base - a tiny resource base that, incidentally, is never adequately explained other than "it happened, deal with it" - into a series of vast conquests at Republic expense, because, you know, tiny tinpot dictatorships taking over all the things with piss-poor opposition happens all the time and is perfectly normal.

 

Then, during the next war, when the Republic starts actually fighting as though its collective military and political leaders have more than three brain cells between them, and when the Sith start doing their inevitable fratricidal thing, and when the Imps start to realize that you really can't run a galaxy-spanning empire and the military to defend and expand it on a foundation of racism, xenophobia, and slavery, the Empire has to make strategic withdrawals, and suddenly Imperial fangirls are up in arms.

 

See, it makes sense to be happy with the first one and unhappy with the second one if, you know, you're just an unabashed Imperial fangirl. That's fine. Tastes are subjective. I like most of the Imp storylines and I play more Imp toons than Pub ones. What doesn't make sense is being happy with the first one and unhappy with the second one because the first one is supposedly realistic while the second one supposedly isn't. Because ahahahahahahaha.

[pauljc]

I just want to know how the same Empire that roflstomped the Republic in the first war (which lasted decades, so it wasn't just a "surprise attack", it was a war of attrition) can be so cartoonishly incompetent in this one.

[Allronix]

(Sorry about that mistake with the Warrior and the Inquisitor. My brother in law played the Inquisitor. My sis played the Warrior. Their roomie plays the Agent, and I've got the Hunter. That way, we get to see everyone else's quests.)

 

Well, with Revan? First, if you're going to go charging off, leave a datacron or something behind as a warning, at the very least. Leave Bastila or Carth with instructions (5 years or I'm dead, go here and open my safe deposit box). Instead of challenging the Emperor directly like a fool, with no backup plan? How about taking pictures, recording conversations, gathering intel - spy work - and finding a way to smuggle it back to Republic space? Hell, launder the intel through Canderous if you had to. And once the warning was headed to the right people, then he could be free to walk into that painfully obvious trap.

 

Numbers and infrastructure matter, especially in wartime. Check the American Civil War. The South had better officers, homefield advantage, and fewer loopholes to get out of serving. However, the economy was based on farm labor (yes, with slaves), they lacked infrastructure and factories, and they didn't have allies (they thought they would get the British, but the British weren't dependant on US cotton when they could get it from India just as easily).

 

The North? Well, the government was crooked. Lincoln pretty much trashed the First, Fourth, and Fifth amendments, and the Senate was deadlocked in squabbling and blaming each other over the South's defection. The officers weren't very competant (You know it's bad when Custer is one of your best), and someone called to the draft could pay $300 or find some poor shlub to take his place. However, it had the factories, the rail lines, and more manpower to deal with the war effort

 

In the end, the Union generals (particularly Grant) won by sending troops into the proverbial meat grinder. The Union could afford the losses. The Confederacy? Not so much. Add that to Sherman's rampage wrecking the supply chain, and the South couldn't sustain the fight.

 

As for the Republic being bogged down with competing interests? Well, so are most democracies. Wartime tends to do a lot to gloss over those interests and silence dissent. It also makes for strange bedfellows (The US, the UK, and the USSR in WW2? Great example)

 

When I started playing Imperial toons (and watching my family play theirs), I wanted to like them. I really wanted to see the validity in their struggle and the point to their point of view. I wanted to see the notion that the Imperials were just as mixed of a bag as the Republic. BioWare did more to explain the Sith in six minutes than Lucas did in six movies with Yuthura Ban and Uthar Wynn, and the Bane books were also excellent at depicting someone who is much more scary because he is rational. Instead, I'm scratching my head about how these guys even managed to quit infighting long enough to accomplish anything and how long they think they can keep using meatgrinder tactics before they run out of soldiers.

[Euphrosyne]

I just want to know how the same Empire that roflstomped the Republic in the first war (which lasted decades, so it wasn't just a "surprise attack", it was a war of attrition) can be so cartoonishly incompetent in this one.

The fact that it was decades long is one of the reasons it's so incredibly implausible. Nobody with limited resources has had that kind of unbroken success in the annals of human military history. Not Alexander, not Hung Taiji, not Napoleon, not Friedrich. You describe it as a war of attrition: wars of attrition are lost by the side with inferior resources.

 

Look at Star Wars lore itself: the only times anybody accomplished anything similar were when the Rebel Alliance launched its post-Endor campaigns, and when the Yuuzhan Vong initiated their war on civilization. The Rebels, though, fought an enemy that had fragmented into a zillion pieces in open civil war - no evidence of this happening with the Republic - while the Vong started out with resources that a) probably dwarfed those of the Sith and b) only sufficed for a three-year run of success before everything broke down. Three years! Even assuming that the Republic high command of the Great Galactic Civil War was as obliging an enemy as Sien Sovv and Turk Brand were with the New Republic Defense Force, the Imps ought to have run out of steam a very long time before the Treaty of Coruscant.

[pauljc]

In the words of Imhotep (The Mummy); "Death is only the Beginning."

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaU_VpMu0cE&t=1m18s

[Astarica]

Arguing about resources is pointless in Star Wars where your faction is only as strong as your leading Force users. Otherwise Grand Admiral Thrawn would've wiped out the New Republic since nobody was even in the same league as him so far as tactics-wise (he sieged Coruscant with a vastly inferior fleet), and he has the technology on his side too but he too was killed by a plan from a Force user.

 

Tactics and military competence is likewise useless. Grand Admiral Thrawn spent all his time recreating a fleet that was still significantly weaker in terms of their skills compared to when Emperor Palpatine led it even after taking all the possible shortcuts on top of his unbelievable leadership, because Battle Meditation trumps almost any amount of strategy. As long as you're not incompetent at the movie villian level it doesn't matter if your strategy only involves telling everyone to start shooting the guys in red. That strategy works fine as long as your Force user leader is better than their Force user leader. Even at the dogfighting level there's no way any amount of training can let a non Force user compete against a Force user there. Force users wins wars, and the Empire started with a pretty significant advantage in this department.

 

Now the Republic makes its comeback because of the Hero of Tython, who is probably supposed to be the Luke Skywalker of his era. In the Empire story even as Wrath or Darth Nox it's understood you're by far weaker than the Emperor, and really can't be more powerful than an influential member like Darth Marr or Darth Malgus. In the Republic story, Satele Shan might as well be the Hero of Tython's personal cheerleader. There were plenty of big name Jedis that died in the Empire campaign, more than enough to match the previously unnamed Dark Council members that died on Corellia and Ilum. The problem is that the Hero of Tython is much stronger than basically any Jedi out there (Satele Shan was afraid to face the Emperor in battle) while Wrath and Darth Nox are at best above average Dark Council level. I mean the Hero of Tython's companion, Lord Scourge, was the last Wrath!

 

So the Republic is winning because their leading force user, Hero of Tython, is significantly stronger than anyone on the Empire's side. So the Republic can basically have plan like 'send in Hero of Tython and kill everything on the planet' and it'll work. But despite this, the Empire still come out way ahead in Ilum because Darth Malgus, someone who actually has some level of tactics for a Force user, got his hands on the stealth armada and this is someone who canonically should be able to put up a fight against even the Hero of Tython. So the Empire was well on their way to winning the war until, of course, Darth Malgus betrayed the Empire.

 

It's worth noting that brains and Force user usually do not mix. Most Force users, including Hero of Tython and Wrath, are incredibly stupid people. Darth Angral would've destroyed Tython with a single battleship armed with your generic superweapon of the day, showing the power of what happens when a Force user with enough brains to use technology. This is why the Empire's superweapons are usually ineffective (and same with Republic's) and that's why Darth Malgus's betrayal really turned the tide of the war, because he and Darth Marr appears to be the only Siths that know you're supposed to point a superweapon at the enemy as opposed to yourself. The Republic currently does not appear to have any Jedis who have this level of knowledge, but that's okay because they've the upper hand in the Force user department.

[Astarica]

The fact that it was decades long is one of the reasons it's so incredibly implausible. Nobody with limited resources has had that kind of unbroken success in the annals of human military history. Not Alexander, not Hung Taiji, not Napoleon, not Friedrich. You describe it as a war of attrition: wars of attrition are lost by the side with inferior resources.

 

Look at Star Wars lore itself: the only times anybody accomplished anything similar were when the Rebel Alliance launched its post-Endor campaigns, and when the Yuuzhan Vong initiated their war on civilization. The Rebels, though, fought an enemy that had fragmented into a zillion pieces in open civil war - no evidence of this happening with the Republic - while the Vong started out with resources that a) probably dwarfed those of the Sith and b) only sufficed for a three-year run of success before everything broke down. Three years! Even assuming that the Republic high command of the Great Galactic Civil War was as obliging an enemy as Sien Sovv and Turk Brand were with the New Republic Defense Force, the Imps ought to have run out of steam a very long time before the Treaty of Coruscant.

 

This is Star Wars. The Force is your resource. A transport ship (Black Talon) can board and take over a warship if the guys you sent are strong enough. In the Balmorra story line when you attacked the Balmorran Arms Factory on the Empire side, you were warned that the Republics are sending several squads each led by a Jedi and that was a common tactics used by the Republic that can take over an entire planet, and it's clearly implied the Jedi is the part that makes the strategy work at all. Since SWTOR appears to predate the concept of planetary shields, the concept of war of attrition is meaningless. As the history of Taris shows, a single ship that gets into low orbit can fry an entire planet. The Republic should never have been able to retake Balmorra or Corellia because if a single ship can bomb Taris so that it's uninhabitable for the next 300 years you can just do the same to Balmorra and Corellia before you leave too. Of course for story purposes you got to have this back and forth and vague concept about supply lines, but having more resources is not really that important when you're fighting at a level where a single ship can often fry an entire world. Darth Angral would've been able to fry 2 worlds, including Tython, if he wasn't miraculously stopped by a level 30 Jedi Knight, on a single ship.

 

Of course the Republic has a huge resource advantage, but having more resources don't mean much when you're looking at planetary devastation if a single ship or a ground strike team slipped through. We know the Empire has an advantage on this at the beginning, and if 3 guys can randomly burning a planet to the ground you don't really care if the other side has more resources than you do.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Astarica

[Allronix]

Yeah, and the Sith's most powerful Force Users are busy killing each other, which is why they lack experienced wielders. I'll give Malgus credit; he's a hell of a lot brighter than most Sith. He tends to take a long view, and it was very smart of him to start dismantling that Human High Culture policy which was as useful as ankle weights during an ocean swim. Under him, the Empire could have become much more interesting and a worthy opponent.

 

And the Knight didn't win that war on their own. Havoc Squad took out countless weapons, a couple warships, and some of their best officers. The Smuggler managed to unite a good chunk of the criminal underworld against the Imperials, and never underestimate a good privateer in the right place (I was just reading about Piet Hahn and the sacking of the Spanish Treasure Fleet, which added needed funds to the Dutch independence effort against Spain). The Counsular brought in allies and shut down the Emperor's private spy network (which included Kira!) The Hero of Tython did 25% of the work, and they had the big job of banishing Darth Cthulu, but they wouldn't have gone far without the backup.

[KaleTogras]

Back and forth, back and forth this thread goes, where will it end up, nobody knows...except we all know, it will end mid-post somewhere and another one titled 'Why is the Empire losing when it's clearly awesome!' will rise in its place. I was guilty of that too, believe me .

 

There are all kinds of interpretations of what is currently going on in SWTOR fanon vis a vis the Empire and honestly, all opinions are welcome, because none of them matter . Writer's fiat has decided that the first war lasted for 30 years through an unconvincing tug-of-war between two inexplicably equal factions, and it was writer's fiat which has decreed that within a year one of those factions is, much more realistically, close to ruin.

 

So, Empire fans, take heart! Writer's fiat will see the Empire amazingly resurgent in the future (Wrath of the Emperor King will be that expansion's name, mark my words ), for reasons that BW wants your dollars, euros and rupees .

Edited April 16, 2013 by KaleTogras

[Astarica]

Yeah, and the Sith's most powerful Force Users are busy killing each other, which is why they lack experienced wielders. I'll give Malgus credit; he's a hell of a lot brighter than most Sith. He tends to take a long view, and it was very smart of him to start dismantling that Human High Culture policy which was as useful as ankle weights during an ocean swim. Under him, the Empire could have become much more interesting and a worthy opponent.

 

And the Knight didn't win that war on their own. Havoc Squad took out countless weapons, a couple warships, and some of their best officers. The Smuggler managed to unite a good chunk of the criminal underworld against the Imperials, and never underestimate a good privateer in the right place (I was just reading about Piet Hahn and the sacking of the Spanish Treasure Fleet, which added needed funds to the Dutch independence effort against Spain). The Counsular brought in allies and shut down the Emperor's private spy network (which included Kira!) The Hero of Tython did 25% of the work, and they had the big job of banishing Darth Cthulu, but they wouldn't have gone far without the backup.

 

The Republic side of the Corellia says Corellia joined the Empire (they weren't conquered) because they didn't think the Republic could win. How can the Republic possibly be winning the war if one of its original founding members and home of the some of the biggest indutry in the galaxy didn't think Republic can win? Yes the Empire lost a lot of people over Corellia but so did the Republic. There's a rather impressive list of names of Republic heroes that died during the initial defense of Corellia as well. The credentials of the guys who aren't Hero of Tython doesn't matter because they get canceled out by their Empire counterparts who are just as impressive. Canonically, the Hero of Tython is unfathomably powerful compared to the rest of the playable characters. Satele Shan is afraid to face the Emperor in battle and Hero of Tython did that between himself and his droid.

 

Although another Dark Council member died in Ilum, that loss hardly matters since pretty much everyone besides Darth Marr and Darth Jadus are useless amongst the council. The battle of Ilum ended with Malgus in control of the stealth technology. In the Empire side the Republic admiral says even if you get this new technology the Republic would find a way to detect it and the conflict would continue forever and ruin the galaxy, and the player's response is that the Republic will surely break before the galaxy can be ruined. And there's no reason to believe that this isn't the logical outcome with Darth Malgus leading the stealth armada.

 

Yes there's always power play amongst the Sith but it's hard to see the guys stuck to tradition (equivlaent of Darth Thanton guys) actually have the power to do anything to oppose Malgus. If Darth Malgus didn't betray the empire I'm sure he can broadcast holos of his Twilek slave, and sure you'll have the equivalent of Darth Thanton saying "OMG that's not the Sith way", but it's not like Darth Malgus is dumb enough to let himself to be defeated by some irrelevent Dark Council member and honestly it wouldn't even be anything new compared to the usual Sith politics. If anything being in possession of a stealth armada probably makes it far easier for Malgus to work on wiping out the Republic without interference from other Siths.

 

The Republic views Malgus as a credible threat against the Republic. Malgus certainly believes that with his forces plus his technological advantage he's more than capable of destroying the Republic. After all, he's still opposed to the Republic. This implies that at the conclusion of Battle of Ilum, the Empire still holds a decisive advantage because Darth Malgus, one of the few pragmatists amongst Force users, believe he has sufficient resources to defeat the Republic while fending off retaliation from the Empire and we know most of his resources still have to come from the Empire. In the Republic version of The False Emperor, you can say, 'why don't we wait until some other Sith gets rid of Malgus' and you'd be told that Malgus has enough support of Sith Lords that this seems unlikely.

[Astarica]

Back and forth, back and forth this threat goes, where will it end up, nobody knows...except we all know, it will end mid-post somewhere and another one titled 'Why is the Empire losing when it's clearly awesome!' will rise in its place. I was guilty of that too, believe me .

 

There are all kinds of interpretations of what is currently going on in SWTOR fanon vis a vis the Empire and honestly, all opinions are welcome, because none of them matter . Writer's fiat has decided that the first war lasted for 30 years through an unconvincing tug-of-war between two inexplicably equal factions, and it was writer's fiat which has decreed that within a year one of those factions is, much more realistically, close to ruin.

 

So, Empire fans, take heart! Writer's fiat will see the Empire amazingly resurgent in the future (Wrath of the Emperor King will be that expansion's name, mark my words ), for reasons that BW wants your dollars, euros and rupees .

 

Well to be fair a schism is a very good way to totally ruin your decisive victory. Let's say the Empire is twice as strong as the Republic in terms of overall strength at the end of Battle of Ilum, and Malgus runs off with 60% of the resources (because he's a smart guy, you'd think he has to have more than half of the resources since he knows he's going to be fighting the Empire and the Republic). In the Battle of Ilum FP we see both Republic and Imperial troops fighting together, but it's hard to imagine Empire didn't do most of the heavy lifting since it simply makes no sense for the Republic to commit serious forces in terms of army/ships when you can get Malgus and the Empire killing each other for you. So after this brief but bloody civil war the Empire could easily be a fraction of its original strength to the point it is now no match against the Republic.

[TGaP_Andrey]

So, please, tell me once, did Empire conquer Makeb and Isotope-5? I heard rumors on this forum about it.

[Beniboybling]

So, please, tell me once, did Empire conquer Makeb and Isotope-5? I heard rumors on this forum about it.

This is a non-spoiler forum - so please don't tell us.

[zzoorrzz]

So, please, tell me once, did Empire conquer Makeb and Isotope-5? I heard rumors on this forum about it.

 

 

Yes, isotope-5 is ours and Republic has no clue about it.

 

 

We'll be fine. With a guy like Darth Marr in charge, I have no worries about the future.

[Beniboybling]

The reason the Sith Empire were so successful during the Great Galactic War, and utterly implode on themselves during the Cold War is because, as Malgus says: The Empire is war made manifest.

 

Sith thrive on war, and languish in peace. During the war they had something to focus themselves, something to rally behind, hatred for the Republic and the Jedi. The Sith have no time to squabble with each other and conduct petty power-plays because their too busy fighting a war. Certainly no time to establish your own miniature Empire. And really there's no need to, want to move up in the Sith hierarchy? Win some battles against the Republic, slaughter some Jedi, capture some planets, you'll quickly win favour with your superiors and be on the Dark Council before you know it. Want to gain your own territory? The Republic encompasses thousands and thousands of star systems, take your pick! Not the mention the fact that with Sith dying left right and center (although not as swiftly as Jedi) power vacuums are opening up constantly, and are quickly filled by those eager Sith looking to climb the ladder. The same applies for those outside the Sith hierarchy, they have a entire galaxy spanning government ripe for the trashing if they want to gain some brownie points.

 

We also have the consider the huge impact that the Mandalorian blockade had on the war effort, in which the Republic actually considered surrendering to the Sith. We also have to consider that ultimately the Republic were not prepared for war, whereas the Sith were more the ready and better equipped, there ships are better, their soldiers are better, and Sith are more effective at killing than Jedi. In such a sense the always remained several steps ahead and by the time the Republic had properly organised itself, the Sith had already conquered a third of the galaxy. And finally, Imperial Intelligence, which outclasses SIS (who hadn't even been properly established with the outbreak of war) in every way.

 

But now, in a Cold War were the conflict had subsided, the Sith have grown restless. Not only do they yearn for conflict but they suddenly have found it increasingly difficult to impress their superiors and rise up the ranks. Instead they resort to internal infighting and backstabbing. Over a decade this becomes the norm and the Empire is plunged into chaos. On the other hand the Republic have a chance to lick their wounds, recover in a peace time climate. So when war breaks out again, the Republic (no longer unprepared and unawares) strike back hard and the Empire falter.

 

So really all the Empire needs is a refocusing to get back on track again and start winning this war!

[Beniboybling]

The fact that it was decades long is one of the reasons it's so incredibly implausible. Nobody with limited resources has had that kind of unbroken success in the annals of human military history. Not Alexander, not Hung Taiji, not Napoleon, not Friedrich. You describe it as a war of attrition: wars of attrition are lost by the side with inferior resources.

 

Look at Star Wars lore itself: the only times anybody accomplished anything similar were when the Rebel Alliance launched its post-Endor campaigns, and when the Yuuzhan Vong initiated their war on civilization. The Rebels, though, fought an enemy that had fragmented into a zillion pieces in open civil war - no evidence of this happening with the Republic - while the Vong started out with resources that a) probably dwarfed those of the Sith and b) only sufficed for a three-year run of success before everything broke down. Three years! Even assuming that the Republic high command of the Great Galactic Civil War was as obliging an enemy as Sien Sovv and Turk Brand were with the New Republic Defense Force, the Imps ought to have run out of steam a very long time before the Treaty of Coruscant.

The Force is limitless, nuff said. Really when people try and compare Star Wars with real world happenings, it makes me cringe. They are incomparable.

[TGaP_Andrey]

Yes, isotope-5 is ours and Republic has no clue about it.

 

 

We'll be fine. With a guy like Darth Marr in charge, I have no worries about the future.

 

WWAAAAAAAGH!!1111 IMMA FIRIN MAH LAZAH!!1 This is very cool news! Am i correct, that new addon may will be named, like 'Empire strikes back, republic scums!"??

Edited April 16, 2013 by TGaP_Andrey

[ekimmak]

The Republic side of the Corellia says Corellia joined the Empire (they weren't conquered) because they didn't think the Republic could win. How can the Republic possibly be winning the war if one of its original founding members and home of the some of the biggest indutry in the galaxy didn't think Republic can win?

 

Most of Corellia didn't agree with it. It's just the council that ran them that thought they would be better off with the empire. Most of the civilian population, and most of their police force/military were against the whole thing, and even some of the councillors were having second thoughts about it.