Watch/Combat/Focus dispute

[ZorusCilato]

I'd love to see some definitive parses to settle the discussion. Which is top dps? Posting rotations optional. I'm going to try all three and see which I can sqeeze the most out of.

[Bugattiboy]

It depends on your environment. Watchman is best for ops. Combat is best for single target burst, and Focus is best for AoE damage. Edited April 13, 2013 by Bugattiboy

[Ryat]

it depends on your environment. Watchman is best for ops. Combat is best for single target burst, and focus is best for aoe damage.

qtf ^^^^

[ZorusCilato]

The three of those aren't so different. Certainly in an ops you will have moments when burst is important, yes? When AE is needed? I understand the essence of what you are saying...that all three are viable for different situations,and I agree. Nevertheless, I have read here things like (I will paraphrase) 'Focus still roflstomps' 'Combat is still as good as it was' 'Watchman will be the best sustsained dps' . Can we actually hash out any of these claims, as a community, or are we mostly content to just sit back and take someone else's word for it?

[Delta_V]

There's a post floating around with the best dps for each spec back from when the PTS was still live. Now, some of those numbers may be outdated, but I don't think there were any major changes to Sentinels since then.

 

Basically, Focus still lags behind the others in single-target sustained dps (as it should, do to its AOE ability). In Ops, the toughest fights are the boss fights, where single-target sustained dps reigns supreme. Focus is still good for un-ranked pvp and for leveling content (where you fight lots of mobs and relatively few bosses), but in Ops, the other two are simply better. Not to mention, the AOE of Focus can cause problems in fights where you need to CC enemies.

 

Between Combat and Watchman, it really comes down to the fight. Watchman has a slight lead on dummy parses, where you can just lay into a target for minutes at a time. In Ops, this translates into an advantage on the straight-up tank-and-spank fights. Even in fights with a lot of target-switching, as long as you can keep the Merciless and Juyo Stacks up, Watchman will have an edge.

 

However, Combat will have a significant advantage in any stop-and-go fights. A perfect example would be Sav-Rak in HM Lost Island (I know it's not an op, but the point still stands). Every time he does his smash and you have to go to the pylons, Watchman will lose the stacks of Merciless, meaning you have to start building your dps back up after every stage. Combat, on the other hand, lets you start doing your top dps right away after each stage.

 

 

 

tl;dr: For endgame PVE, Focus is not optimal, and the choice between Combat and Watchman comes down to personal preference.

[TripleMe]

There's a post floating around with the best dps for each spec back from when the PTS was still live. Now, some of those numbers may be outdated, but I don't think there were any major changes to Sentinels since then.

 

Basically, Focus still lags behind the others in single-target sustained dps (as it should, do to its AOE ability). In Ops, the toughest fights are the boss fights, where single-target sustained dps reigns supreme. Focus is still good for un-ranked pvp and for leveling content (where you fight lots of mobs and relatively few bosses), but in Ops, the other two are simply better. Not to mention, the AOE of Focus can cause problems in fights where you need to CC enemies.

 

Between Combat and Watchman, it really comes down to the fight. Watchman has a slight lead on dummy parses, where you can just lay into a target for minutes at a time. In Ops, this translates into an advantage on the straight-up tank-and-spank fights. Even in fights with a lot of target-switching, as long as you can keep the Merciless and Juyo Stacks up, Watchman will have an edge.

 

However, Combat will have a significant advantage in any stop-and-go fights. A perfect example would be Sav-Rak in HM Lost Island (I know it's not an op, but the point still stands). Every time he does his smash and you have to go to the pylons, Watchman will lose the stacks of Merciless, meaning you have to start building your dps back up after every stage. Combat, on the other hand, lets you start doing your top dps right away after each stage.

 

 

 

tl;dr: For endgame PVE, Focus is not optimal, and the choice between Combat and Watchman comes down to personal preference.

 

To add to this excellent summary, Watchman usually has more raid utility. The only raid utility of Combat is faster transcendence (Inspiration is common), which is not much since its only 20% faster. Watchman has better interrupts (critical in lot of boss fights), group heal and, after 2.0, reduces the damage output of bosses.

 

I know your question was about top dps, but in an ops, a lot of time you wouldn't want to maximize your dps.

[arkitip]

It's tough to say. The 2.0 DPS thread had parses for Combat and Watchman but the Watchman parsers were geared better.

 

What I will say is Combat is such a pain in the *** right now it's not fun to play IMO. So there's that.

[ZorusCilato]

Thanks for the replies. A couple of things:

 

a) I can't imagine not wanting to maximize my dps. Does not compute. The argument for more utility is a good one, in raids/ops that are smaller, but even so, I would want to maximize my dps.

 

b) above mentions a parse list...can you link it?

[Delta_V]

2.0 DPS results for all classes

 

It doesn't have any dps results for Focus spec yet. I'm sure I've seen some floating around the forums, but I can't seem to find them at the moment.

[TripleMe]

Thanks for the replies. A couple of things:

 

a) I can't imagine not wanting to maximize my dps. Does not compute. The argument for more utility is a good one, in raids/ops that are smaller, but even so, I would want to maximize my dps.

 

b) above mentions a parse list...can you link it?

 

What I mean by not wanting to maximize DPS is there is often a trade-off between max DPS and survivability. Pre 2.0, as watchman sent, I would go 31 / 7 / 3 for max survivability, or 31 / 3 / 7 for max DPS. You need to know which fight requires which spec. I almost always hold firing off my inspiration + relic + adrenal at beginning of the fight, since that's guaranteed to pull aggro, even though that's the max DPS I can do.

 

Basically, you should maximize your DPS within the constraints of survivability, aggro, mechanics, etc. Remember, a dead DPS does 0 dps.

[HaemmernZeit]

Don't forget that some fights have time or percentage phases (eg. Toth and Zorn or Firebrand and Stormcaller) where doing too much dps is a bad thing. I spent over an hour on Toth and Zorn because me (on my mara) and another mara were pushing Toth and Zorn too fast. Not fun at all, ending up rage quitting. The GM was NOT happy with me. :/

[Bastila-chan]

Hey. I have been combat sentinel for some time now, and I must say I love bursting dps. Tried watchman once, didn't like it, switched back immediatly. But of course, it comes down to preference, so definetely try both.

 

Also, I can give you a few pointers on combat rotation, especially now, since it's more unpredictable. Basically, when 2.0 first hit, I was unhappy with the changes, since I felt my rotation is really unpredictable. But after playing for 5 days and messing around with it, I figured there is a way to minimize your luck on procs and maximize dps. But please bear in mind that it's still in progress so don't take my rotation as carved in stones.

 

Force leap

Zealous strike (debatable)

Blade rush

Precision slash (Because PS does not respect global cooldown, it is imperative that you hit it before blade rush ends, you don't want ataru to trigger Hand of justice, thus wasting your reset on PS)

Master strike (immediatly after PS, now you watch for procs.)

If "Opportune strike procs" > Blade rush

If "Hand of justice procs" > Dispatch

 

If nothing procs, just spame blade rush until Hand of justice procs, thus resetting your cooldown on Precision slash and then do Dispatch + Blade rush combo. You have to burst your strongest attacks when the buff from PS is active.

 

This is just the core of the bursting rotation, there are other abilities you can use if you like them, such as Cauterize. (regardless of some opinions, I believe Cauterize is not useless out of Watchman spec). Also, why I wrote Zealous strike is optional. Basically, there is a small chance that Zealous strike will proc Hand of justice, resseting your cooldown on PS, but, since you didn't even use PS, your reset will be wasted. But I like to begin a fight with lots of focus so I take that chance, also, you need to squeeze in a focus builder sooner or later. I go for sooner.

 

Hope you find the tree that suits you the most.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Bastila-chan

[ZorusCilato]

I still think some parses would help shape the debate. Pehaps I am old fashioned.

[arkitip]

Hey. I have been combat sentinel for some time now, and I must say I love bursting dps. Tried watchman once, didn't like it, switched back immediatly. But of course, it comes down to preference, so definetely try both.

 

Also, I can give you a few pointers on combat rotation, especially now, since it's more unpredictable. Basically, when 2.0 first hit, I was unhappy with the changes, since I felt my rotation is really unpredictable. But after playing for 5 days and messing around with it, I figured there is a way to minimize your luck on procs and maximize dps. But please bear in mind that it's still in progress so don't take my rotation as carved in stones.

 

Force leap

Zealous strike (debatable)

Blade rush

Precision slash (Because PS does not respect global cooldown, it is imperative that you hit it before blade rush ends, you don't want ataru to trigger Hand of justice, thus wasting your reset on PS)

Master strike (immediatly after PS, now you watch for procs.)

If "Opportune strike procs" > Blade rush

If "Hand of justice procs" > Dispatch

 

If nothing procs, just spame blade rush until Hand of justice procs, thus resetting your cooldown on Precision slash and then do Dispatch + Blade rush combo. You have to burst your strongest attacks when the buff from PS is active.

 

This is just the core of the bursting rotation, there are other abilities you can use if you like them, such as Cauterize. (regardless of some opinions, I believe Cauterize is not useless out of Watchman spec). Also, why I wrote Zealous strike is optional. Basically, there is a small chance that Zealous strike will proc Hand of justice, resseting your cooldown on PS, but, since you didn't even use PS, your reset will be wasted. But I like to begin a fight with lots of focus so I take that chance, also, you need to squeeze in a focus builder sooner or later. I go for sooner.

 

Hope you find the tree that suits you the most.

 

Couple of things

 

- If Opportune Strike procs, ALWAYS use Blade Storm. Because Blade Storm will auto crit and returns 1 focus, it has priority over dispatch with that proc up.

 

- One opener I've been messing around with is to use your OOC regen to build 30 centering and then:

 

Leap

Zealous

Precision (pop berserk)

3x Massacre

If Opportune - Blade Storm

If no Opportune but HoJ - Dispatch

If neither - Massacre

 

This opener will usually force the HoJ proc AND has just enough Focus to let me immediately transition to:

 

Precision

Master Strike

Blade Storm, Dispatch, or Massacre depending on condition

[Plicitous]

The parses are public for all to see at Torparse.com. If you check the statistics and specify the Sentinel advanced class you will see that the top of the DPS chart for almost every Operation or HM FP is filled with Watchmen. All of the eye-popping parses are built upon Merciless Slash.

 

That said, I still love and prefer Combat. At the end of the day, it's about the play style you prefer to play. Managing dots is not for me. I want to go from 0-60 as quickly as possible and nothing makes me happier than bringing the thunder with a 15k Blade Storm or getting the last word with a 13k Dispatch.

 

At the end of the day, if you are good with your spec you will be better than 90% of other players no matter what your advanced class is or isn't.

[atschai]

I still think some parses would help shape the debate. Pehaps I am old fashioned.

 

Watchman will always be ahead in dummy parses, not so much in a raid setting with the armor debuff. ~8% damage buff helps a lot. I'm raiding with a wachman sent who does 2450 dps (where I don't manage over 2400) on the dummy and occasionally I beat him on a straight up boss fight in dps. I'd say combat and watchman are even. It really comes down to preference.

Edited May 4, 2013 by atschai

[ZorusCilato]

Thanks for linking TORparse. I don't understand, based on this, how anyone can argue for anything other then Watchman for ST parses. Preferences aside, of course, based on fun and enjoyment, which is important! But I am fairly new to the game and I like to squeeze as much out of my class as possible.

[ML_DoubleTap]

What parses on TorParse are you looking at? I see a pretty good mix looking at the top DPS on different fights of Scum and Villiany. Even a couple Focus specs up towards the top on some fights.

[KeyboardNinja]

Here are a few trimmed and curated parses. The watchman and focus parses are from the same player parsing on the same day, while the combat parse is from a different player but at a very close gear level:

 

• Watchman
  
• Combat
  
• Focus
  

 

Basically, all three specs are roughly even in terms of single-target DPS potential. Focus brings a lot in terms of AoE damage and on-demand burst (lower burst than combat, but not as RNG and timing dependent). Watchman brings heals, interrupts and a damage dealt debuff. Combat brings transcendence, low-penalty inspiration (focus and to a lesser extent watchman penalize their DPS significantly when they hit inspiration) and very high single-target burst.

[grallmate]

- One opener I've been messing around with is to use your OOC regen to build 30 centering and then:

 

Leap

Zealous

Precision (pop berserk)

3x Massacre

If Opportune - Blade Storm

If no Opportune but HoJ - Dispatch

If neither - Massacre

 

This opener will usually force the HoJ proc AND has just enough Focus to let me immediately transition to:

 

Precision

Master Strike

Blade Storm, Dispatch, or Massacre depending on condition

 

This is what I've been using on my Carnage Mara. ~75% of the time I get back to back Gore windows and maybe 10% of the time I end up with a wasted HOJ proc.

 

By spec, here are the advantages each brings to a raid WITH the caveats.

Watchman:

- Group healing from Zen. Only applies to members in your group and value is dubious in most fights.

- 5% damage debuff. Only useful if you have 2 Guardian tanks. Both Shadow and Vanguard tanks can apply this debuff and it doesn't stack.

- 6s interrupt and 0m Leap. Awesome on some fights as Watchman can solo interrupt (EC Kephess droids) while other classes have to rotate interrupts. Other fights that require interrupting are usually infrequent enough for the 8s CD most melee has.

- Arguably the highest potential DPS on a target with 100% up time.

 

Combat:

- Faster Transcendence. Great on EC Kephess.

- Instant extreme burst. Great on Op IX, both Kephess fights, the TFB and Olok. Good for quickly killing single adds.

- Arguably closest translation of dummy DPS into a raid environment.

- High native accuracy bonus is useful with current gear levels but will diminish in value as tiers improve.

 

Focus:

- Strong AoE in main rotation. Great for tangentially killing adds unfortunately multi-boss fights are usually either too far apart for this to be of benefit (T/Z, SC/FB) or bosses heal when another dies (Cartel Warlords, Dread Guard). Handy in Jarg/Sorno if you want to tank them next to each other.

 

Contrary to KBN, I'd argue that Inspiration isn't really a penalty for any spec if you're using Valorous Call to stack it with Zen. If you discount Valorous Call, the choice between Zen and Inspiration is harder for Focus and Watchman than for Combat.

[KeyboardNinja]

Contrary to KBN, I'd argue that Inspiration isn't really a penalty for any spec if you're using Valorous Call to stack it with Zen. If you discount Valorous Call, the choice between Zen and Inspiration is harder for Focus and Watchman than for Combat.

 

If you do that, then you either a) have less control over Inspiration timing, or b) have to delay the use of your 30 stacks, in some cases for quite some time. Both of these are a problem, but the latter is *killer* for a Focus sentinel. Without Force Stasis, focus is entirely dependent on Zen for every other Force Sweep. If they can't Zen on schedule, then they end up both focus starved and late on force sweeping, which in turn cascades into other abilities via the Force Sweep damage buff, the Blade Storm proc and the Zen damage buff. Overall, focus is basically screwed if they can't Zen in rotation.

[grallmate]

If you do that, then you either a) have less control over Inspiration timing, or b) have to delay the use of your 30 stacks, in some cases for quite some time. Both of these are a problem, but the latter is *killer* for a Focus sentinel. Without Force Stasis, focus is entirely dependent on Zen for every other Force Sweep. If they can't Zen on schedule, then they end up both focus starved and late on force sweeping, which in turn cascades into other abilities via the Force Sweep damage buff, the Blade Storm proc and the Zen damage buff. Overall, focus is basically screwed if they can't Zen in rotation.

 

Personally, I'd go with it's my ability and I'll use it when its of most benefit to me but I'll give the rest of the team warning of when I plan to use it so they can maximize their benefit. I'm not saying I'll pop it at stupid times, but if I have to delay it 10-15 seconds so I can get the maximum benefit, so be it. Most burn or soft enrage phases last long enough that it isn't an issue... Unless you have 2 or more Sentinels trying to stagger their Inspirations but at that points 30 seconds of Inspiration should give you both plenty of interaction with Zen.

[KeyboardNinja]

Personally, I'd go with it's my ability and I'll use it when its of most benefit to me but I'll give the rest of the team warning of when I plan to use it so they can maximize their benefit. I'm not saying I'll pop it at stupid times, but if I have to delay it 10-15 seconds so I can get the maximum benefit, so be it. Most burn or soft enrage phases last long enough that it isn't an issue... Unless you have 2 or more Sentinels trying to stagger their Inspirations but at that points 30 seconds of Inspiration should give you both plenty of interaction with Zen.

 

That's *mostly* true on current content. The exception to this is TfB Kephess, where you want to time out two inspirations, one on the first pillar and then another on the very last pillar before the soft enrage. Those are pretty narrow burn windows, and the timing needs to be quite precise.

 

The strongest counter-example is really EC Kephess, where you *needed* to fit your first Inspiration into the walker burn phase to get its maximal utility. Obviously that content isn't current anymore though.

 

If you can always hit Inspiration from 30 stacks and then Valorous all those stacks back again, I agree that there is no penalty for any spec. I just don't think you can always do that.

Edited May 10, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[grallmate]

That's *mostly* true on current content. The exception to this is TfB Kephess, where you want to time out two inspirations, one on the first pillar and then another on the very last pillar before the soft enrage. Those are pretty narrow burn windows, and the timing needs to be quite precise.

 

The strongest counter-example is really EC Kephess, where you *needed* to fit your first Inspiration into the walker burn phase to get its maximal utility. Obviously that content isn't current anymore though.

 

If you can always hit Inspiration from 30 stacks and then Valorous all those stacks back again, I agree that there is no penalty for any spec. I just don't think you can always do that.

 

I totally agree. On TFB Kephess I tend to just hold off until the first pillar on all my DPS and just burst it once he starts getting stacks of the debuff. I was thinking of that fight while I was typing before and those are situations I'd hold off popping Zen for the pillar anyway so Inspiration -> Valorous Call -> Zen would still be fine.

 

Similarly, the walker in EC I hold off popping Zen on the first bomber. Hell I try and end the bomber with 30 stacks of Centering and 12 Focus so I can really burst the walker down since our other DPS are able to regen their ammo/force/energy while waiting for the walker to come down.

 

I guess I don't mind lowering my overall DPS slightly to leverage my maximum burst when needed as I'd normally hold off Zen (and all other CDs) for those instances anyway.

[Gondolindhrim]

Thanks for linking TORparse. I don't understand, based on this, how anyone can argue for anything other then Watchman for ST parses. Preferences aside, of course, based on fun and enjoyment, which is important! But I am fairly new to the game and I like to squeeze as much out of my class as possible.

Looking at the Scum & Villainy 8m HM leaderboards, these are the top five Sentinel/Marauder parses, spec used and DPS:

 

Dash'Roode

 

1. Combat 2532.1

2. Watchman 2518.49

3. Watchman 2421.27

4. Watchman 2420.16

5. Combat 2398.31

 

Titan 6

 

1. Watchman 2759.47

2. Combat 2694.65

3. Combat 2692.28

4. Combat 2684.82

5. Watchman 2524.63

 

Thrasher

 

1. Combat 2712.38

2. Watchman 2630.34

3. Watchman 2588.1

4. Watchman 2585.92

5. Combat 2577.44

 

Operations Chief

 

1. Combat 2460.76

2. Combat 2400.7

3. Watchman 2397

4. Combat 2380.41

5. Watchman 2372.4

 

Olok the Shadow

 

1. Combat 2144.89

2. Combat 2141.91

3. Combat 2087.74

4. Combat 2067.75

5. Watchman 2044.24

 

Cartel Warlords

 

1. Watchman 2829.94

2. Combat 2665.94

3. Combat 2642.29

4. Watchman 2621.88

5. Combat 2609.07

 

Dread Master Styrak

 

1. Combat 2737.79

2. Combat 2664.05

3. Combat 2645.6

4. Combat 2599.27

5. Watchman 2586.59

 

Total #1 rankings:

Watchman 2

Combat 5

 

Total top 5 rankings:

Watchman 14

Combat 21

 

@OP, based on these numbers, I don't think you can really say that either spec is strictly superior. If anything, you could say that while it's normally very even, Combat seems to be the winner on Olok the Shadow and Dread Master Styrak.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Gondolindhrim